Why aren't finishers well finishers anymore?

[Mikechase69]

I would say the two main events from these last two PPV's this is starting to become an issue for me.

In the BFGS Final Jeff Hardy and Bully kicked out of each others finishers at least 4-6 times. I know they are trying to build suspense and I'm sure its also done to protect both of them due to the fact that both me men have a limited moveset but if thats the case why not just have a gimmick match?

And then in CM Punk vs John Cena for the WWE championship match we saw the same thing to an extent with both guys kicking out of each others finishers 2-3 times and to make matters worse you finish the match with a german suplex? Talk about a waste of time and a match I honestly would like to know if this was best finish they could come up with? You make both mens finisher look weak and not effective when you pull this crap.

So can anyone answer why? I mean within five years are guys kicking out of a finisher going to be the norm for every match?

 

[braveh]

In my opinion. This is the IWC mark's wet dream. This is what you got at MITB 2011. It's what you got in all Punk/Bryan matches this year.

It's like the spot monkey phenomenon. These guys take the easy way out and get the crowd reaction in the arena but everybody watching the match on tv with at least a little bit of perspective realize how bad it is.

Zero psychology and 100% finishing move ****ing.

 

[Natural Selection]

I would say the two main events from these last two PPV's this is starting to become an issue for me.

In the BFGS Final Jeff Hardy and Bully kicked out of each others finishers at least 4-6 times. I know they are trying to build suspense and I'm sure its also done to protect both of them due to the fact that both me men have a limited moveset but if thats the case why not just have a gimmick match?

And then in CM Punk vs John Cena for the WWE championship match we saw the same thing to an extent with both guys kicking out of each others finishers 2-3 times and to make matters worse you finish the match with a german suplex? Talk about a waste of time and a match I honestly would like to know if this was best finish they could come up with? You make both mens finisher look weak and not effective when you pull this crap.

So can anyone answer why? I mean within five years are guys kicking out of a finisher going to be the norm for every match?

It has always been like that with two main eventers. A prime example would be WrestleMania 19, how many Stunners and Rock Bottom's were issued? Last night was a prime example of what do I have to do to beat this guy?! G.T.S, Rock Bottom, Anaconda Vise, etc. We could look further back in history and see that is was even like that with Hogan vs Savage. I may be wrong on this one, but I believe Savage was the first guy to kick out of the Hogan Leg Drop.

As far as making both guys finishers look weak and ineffective it actually makes both individuals look unbeatable. If you can kick out of the A.A or the G.T.S it should give the perception that someone is going to have to pull out something new and unexpected. Granted in the end it all comes down to each mans ability to sell the damage from the finishers.

The double pin last night just made it so Punk can still claim 'Best in The World' and Cena can still claim 'You didn't beat me' thus setting up a rematch and furthering this pretty enjoyable stroyline.

 

[DirtyD79]

In my opinion. This is the IWC mark's wet dream. This is what you got at MITB 2011. It's what you got in all Punk/Bryan matches this year.

It's like the spot monkey phenomenon. These guys take the easy way out and get the crowd reaction in the arena but everybody watching the match on tv with at least a little bit of perspective realize how bad it is.

Zero psychology and 100% finishing move ****ing.

Exactly when you see something all the time it loses it's luster. The first time you ever saw a wrestler kick out of a finishing move it was shocking. When everybody and his mother does it all the time, it's no longer impressive. It also makes finishing moves look weak if you have to hit them several times for it to finally work. If that's the case how is it any different from any other move?

 

[ABMorales787]

You're missing a key fact about those two matches. Punk/Cena was a dream rematch. Larger than life matches like those lend their way to that on regards of their finishing moves. Hardy/Ray were the finals of the BFG Series and Hardy was hurt. It wasn't about the psychology, it was about the drama it produced. Similar to when Edge cashed in on Cena in 2006. He kicked out of the Spear despite being a bloody exhausted mess and needed a second one to finish him off.

It's only coincidence that it's happened on PPV's from both TNA and WWE this month. Destination X ended with an Aries Brainbuster. Summerslam with Cena AA'ing Big Show and Punk stealing the pin. And so on.

 

[braveh]

Exactly when you see something all the time it loses it's luster. The first time you ever saw a wrestler kick out of a finishing move it was shocking. When everybody and his mother does it all the time, it's no longer impressive. It also makes finishing moves look weak if you have to hit them several times for it to finally work. If that's the case how is it any different from any other move?

Listen psychology in the wrestling business is abstract. Not even Jake the Snake can explain it properly.

I am no professor of be all end all wrestling. For some reason HHH/Taker and Michaels/Taker at WM had great psychology while Bryan/Punk 2011 had none.

 

[DetectiveZelix]

It has always been like that with two main eventers. A prime example would be WrestleMania 19, how many Stunners and Rock Bottom's were issued? Last night was a prime example of what do I have to do to beat this guy?! G.T.S, Rock Bottom, Anaconda Vise, etc. We could look further back in history and see that is was even like that with Hogan vs Savage. I may be wrong on this one, but I believe Savage was the first guy to kick out of the Hogan Leg Drop.

As far as making both guys finishers look weak and ineffective it actually makes both individuals look unbeatable. If you can kick out of the A.A or the G.T.S it should give the perception that someone is going to have to pull out something new and unexpected. Granted in the end it all comes down to each mans ability to sell the damage from the finishers.

The double pin last night just made it so Punk can still claim 'Best in The World' and Cena can still claim 'You didn't beat me' thus setting up a rematch and furthering this pretty enjoyable stroyline.

true true but at the same time in those matches the guys took a while to pin there opponents, which was not the case in the Punk-Cena match last night. In that match both of those guys were pinning directly after their finishing moves then the other would kick out...I would call that a little over the top...at least let them slowly go for the pin or seem more tired to make it look more realistic

 

[TheOneTheyCallOn]

All I can think is that somewhere along the timeline Mcmahon or some other person in a similar role saw the crowd reaction to a false finish, that translated into money and now we have situations like this. Very unfortunate if you ask me, it used to be that once you were hit with the 'finisher' you were done, even the term finisher is meant to imply that it will 'finish' the match.

 

[Just Do It]

I think another problem is the moves of wrestlers are so advanced now. Back in the 80's the Savage elbow drop was out of this world - that wasa HIGH spot. And it was rooted in reality - is someone were to jump 10 foot and smash you with an elbow you'd be dead - so logically it would end a wrestling match.

Today a common match crams in so much - the likes of an FU is just another slam. The Low Ryder is just another put down, the codebreaker is just a back breaker etc etc.

 

[Hello... I'm Awesome]

Ok, so this could be way off base, but this is just an idea. I agree that it takes the luster our of it, that it was a lot better. A finisher used to mean something. A finisher was when someone hit their signature "move" and the match was over, like the object of it was to be the first one to get their opponent in position to where you could hit it and the match would be over. When they have people kick out of them all the time it just seems like their finisher is just another move in their set, they don't even sell it on commentary like they didn't hit it as well as normal or anything, which makes you wonder why cm punk could hit john cena with the gts one week square in the center of the ring and pin him but then the next week he hits it after he hits him with a chair and it isn't enough. Anyway, my thought on it is maybe back when it was in the era of hogan with the leg drop and jake with the ddt and so forth they were still working under the premise that even though most of us knew that it was scripted and a "work" that they were making it out to be "real" and that was the most powerful thing they had to throw at them and that would always be the final. Where today, with the internet and everything it is pretty much accepted that wrestling is a show, and sports "entertainment" where they figure it just is one of the many cool moves they have and the more they can show it like even if the loser hits his finisher he gets to show off his bread and butter and make it look like he gave his all even in defeat. Like when jerry lawler had his heart attack a few weeks back and michael cole was all "this is not part of tonight's entertainment" and basically turned him face for the time being unintentionally, because it was no longer part of the show. So to summarize what I am saying, basically now it is more accepted as it is a show and entertainment and it looks cool so lets let everyone do their move where before it was put forth as it was "real" and that was the be all end all, if that makes sense.

 

[HBsam31]

All I can think is that somewhere along the timeline Mcmahon or some other person in a similar role saw the crowd reaction to a false finish, that translated into money and now we have situations like this. Very unfortunate if you ask me, it used to be that once you were hit with the 'finisher' you were done, even the term finisher is meant to imply that it will 'finish' the match.

I really like this answer. When I started watching wrestling it was almost unheard of to kick out of a finisher. Then it started to happen in only the biggest of matches. Then as we started seeing dream matches happen more often which lead to finishers being kicked out of more. Like TheOneTheyCallOn said someone probably liked the way the crowd popped for them and decided to do it even more often.

 

[braveh]

All I can think is that somewhere along the timeline Mcmahon or some other person in a similar role saw the crowd reaction to a false finish, that translated into money and now we have situations like this. Very unfortunate if you ask me, it used to be that once you were hit with the 'finisher' you were done, even the term finisher is meant to imply that it will 'finish' the match.

Is there any evidence or anything that points to Vince being involved in the details of the matches? Because I Doubt that he has anything to do with the in-ring product. I know some writers have said they have nothing to do with what happens in the ring other than to determine who wins the match.

 

[Slash-LN]

I don't mind it here or there. Like someone else said it adds drama to the match. However I agree it's way over done.

I remember several years back WWE actually touched on it when Vince accused Kane and Undertaker of being up to something. He pointed out that when they had met at Wrestlemania previously it took Undertaker three tombstones to beat Kane but at the ppv the night before the Raw I was watching it only took one Tombstone to beat him.

That's kind of the logic we're left with. If someone is able to kick out of a finisher two or three times why would we believe they can be beat by taking the same finisher just once?

 

[Strong Style X]

False finishes are great for big-time matches. It's nothing new either, it's been used in America, Japan, and Mexico for quite some time during headline matches. It adds suspense, it gets the crowd on the edge of their seat, it makes them pop. If it's overdone it's a problem, yes. But it's not something we're seeing on a weekly or nightly basis. What's the big deal?

It adds to the match and in-ring storytelling. Nuff said.

 

[RawIsJericho]

This is why I was not anywhere near as high on the recent Punk vs Cena match as so many seemed to be, it was just finisher after finisher after finisher.

It was always destined to happen. At one time kicking out of one finisher was a shock, and that was cool when done sparingly, but of course over time, it's no longer a shock. So the next logical step (lacking any creativity), is to move on to kicking out of two finishers to actually give the fans a surprise. But of course then the fans get accustomed to that, so then they have to raise the bar even further by kicking out of three finishers.

Nowadays we aren't even surprised if someone kicks out of a finisher on regular TV. That's the reality of the situation they have created, in the past you expected that 95 times out of a hundred a match wasn't going to finish until a guy landed his finisher, nobody expects when someone goes for a pinfall during a match that they will actually get the win until they have executed a finisher. At this point, especially in a high profile PPV match, people don't expect a match to finish without seeing a guy take a 2 or 3 finishers. Even on the undercard there's matches where guys kick out of finishers.

Instead of doing multiple finishers, they need to come up with creative forms of "high impact" offense. Something that springs to mind is when Orton did his through the rope DDT recently (can't even remember who this match was against, Ziggler maybe?) by instead having the guy on the rail and doing the DDT on the outside. There's a move that looks genuinely capable of ending someone without him needing to do an RKO. They need more things like that in matches, and more focus on reversals and escaping of finishers. Build the suspense from that, the suspense of nearly getting caught by the finisher which would have ended the match. Unfortunately it's hard for them to recover from where things have got to now, HBK kicked out of like twenty tombstones or whatever it was.

Sorry a big rant but this annoys me big time haha.

 

[Spinebreaker]

I think it's mostly a consistency problem.

Wrestling is a weird situation in the first place, most fans are consistently watching on two levels simultaneously.

The problems start to occur when a chair shot ends a match on an episode of Raw, or Impact or whatever, and then just a few days later, the same wrestler is hit by 9 chair shots and continues to kick out. Yeah, a highr profile match has more emphasis, and you can legitimately say that there's "so much on the line"...

Like anything, if you see it too much, it becomes normal and boring. If every match is HArdcore, you have to step it up every PPV and it becomess ludicrous.

When was the last time Ric Flair bleeding from the head shocked anyone? Or added ANYTHING at all to a match? Maybe back in '78. But 'Taker's slingshot to the outside? He's done it about 7 or 8 times that I'm aware of. Ever. So when he does it, it's cool as hell.

There needs to be more matches ending WITHOUT a finisher, so the finisher becomes respected again.

 

[theBec2101]

Because Sid just had to kick out of the leg drop. No, but I think it does add for excitement. I like every now and then you get a kick out. It also helps build one of your stars. It makes them appear tougher. I don’t mind kick outs after regular finishers. But if it more of a reversal finisher to another finisher etc or a way to make the finisher look stronger such as Cena does the AA of the top rope or something or a tombstone on the stairs then don’t kick out. But then again you have to go with the feeling of the match and the crowd too.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Other than maybe a brief period in the mid 90s finishers almost never lead to clean finishes in main event caliber matches. Back in the 70s & 80s when wrestling TV consisted mostly of "squash" or "jobber" matches fans were routinely exposed to top stars winning bouts with their finishers. At the main event level, most bouts did not see the winner vanquish the loser clean with their finisher. The obvious exception was Hulk Hogan, later the Ultimate Warrior. Typically heels won on technicalities or some form of cheating. Fan favs might get a clean win but usually not with their finisher. The evolution of TV programming in the mid 90s changed this for a bit, just as the subsequent change to airing more main event caliber matches changed the presentation of weekly TV & the advent of monthly PPV changed the pacing of feuds.

I do think sometimes its overkill. Applying a finisher is a high attention point in a match, you are conditioned to think an end is near, or at least a dramatic moment either involving a match end or surprising escape. Having each wrestler utilize multiple use of their finisher and not get a finish does get repetitive. Rock-Austin, by far, is the worst offender of this, but that was a decade ago, hardly something new.

Eventually too many fans will be displeased and the booking will adjust, just like fans who complained about the crappy, formulamatic 8 min matches WWE force fed us for much of the 80s/early 90s, or the slow burning revolt against "The Dusty Finish", bad screw job endings ruining otherwise excellent matches in the 80s NWA.

 

[H@voc]

The thing is that multiple finishers add "Drama" to the matches.Like when John Cena hits the AA and the guy kicks out you can't believe it.Immediately the other guy let say Big Show hits the chokeslam and goes for the pin but still John Cena kicks out.The thing is this thing happens only at PPVs so I have no problem with a little suspense.

 

[H@voc]

Also it's one of those things that you shouldn't think of at all cause it takes away from the experience.Like why wrestlers don't use their finishers right after the bell rings?You won't find the answer!

 

[The Boss]

The reason they aren't finishers anymore is because today's "wrestlers" don't know how to wrestle - meaning tell a story in the ring - anymore. everything is soooooooooooooooo scripted - even how many steps they take before turning their head during their entrance - that they just follow the steps and hope (if they even care) that the crowd is interested.

Matches used to be called in the ring and the action was to tell a story and build to a climax. That's all but gone because of the WWE cookie cutter developmental program.

 

[RawIsJericho]

The thing is that multiple finishers add "Drama" to the matches.Like when John Cena hits the AA and the guy kicks out you can't believe it.Immediately the other guy let say Big Show hits the chokeslam and goes for the pin but still John Cena kicks out.The thing is this thing happens only at PPVs so I have no problem with a little suspense.

But you can believe it when someone kicks out of something like the AA because it happens so frequently.

and it doesn't only happen on PPVs so...

 

[midgensa]

Finisher kickouts are for one thing and one thing only ... drama.

And in the past few years seeing a finisher and not knowing if it is actually the end of the match is very dramatic and makes the three count that much nicer.

We all remember HBK kicking out. It was one of the most epic moments in WrestleMania history ... and it was only because it was a finisher that people do not kick out of.

I agree that it maybe is happening a little too often ... but the fact that there is no such thing as a finisher anymore is good for the drama in the long run.

 

[reeviint]

As far as making both guys finishers look weak and ineffective it actually makes both individuals look unbeatable. If you can kick out of the A.A or the G.T.S it should give the perception that someone is going to have to pull out something new and unexpected. Granted in the end it all comes down to each mans ability to sell the damage from the finishers.