Which Type Of Diva Is Better, A Stratus Or A Phoenix?

[PlayTheGame]

Alright, so the question is pretty simple, which type of WWE diva, whether it be in your own personal opinion, or what you think works best for the business, is better, a Trish Stratus or a Beth Phoenix?

Now, to clarify, I'm classifying the Stratus-esque divas to be those who were originally not much more than WWE eye candy that later developed their in ring skills and connected with the fans (Torrie Wilson, Candice Michelle, and a few others come to mind).

Phoenix-esque divas are those who have always been talented in the ring, and are almost solely known for their in-ring power and prowess; these pure wrestlers might be impressive in the ring, but their charisma might not be as good (Awesome Kong, Chyna, and a few others come to mind).

So, which type of diva is better, a Stratus or a Phoenix?

 

[Bernkastel]

A diva such as Trish Stratus is far better for the company, because a diva such as Stratus is far more entertaining and a much better worker than a Beth Phoenix.

This decision has very little to do with the styles of the two women. Beth is more of a power/ technical type of wrestler while Trish was a brawler. Instead, this decision has more to do with how good of a match both women could work. I'd place women such as Lita, Sable, and Melina in the same category as Trish, while I'd place women such as Victoria, Molly, and Jacqueline in the same category as Beth. Trish, and the other women in her category, are the one's that would often carry a match while Beth, along with the other women in her category, usually were the one's getting carried.

It would make more sense that the wrestlers that know how to work the better match, male or female, would be considered more useful to the company they're competing for.

 

[NSL]

I think a "Stratus" works a lot better for the business than a "Phoenix". Don't get me wrong, Beth is beautiful, and I love her in-ring work. The problem is, that she's booked as too dominant. There's no competition, and people got bored of seeing her squash their favorite Divas week in and week out. Trish's matches were booked fair, and people never lost interest. Basically, they're both good workers, but Trish leaves room for other Divas on top.

They're both sexy. They both have drop dead good looks. But, Trish's look was easier to market, and attracted a lot more fans. Beth look fits a niche. I personally find her sexier than any Diva on the roster. But, I'm in a minority.

Trish also has the advantage of being a face. For men, being a heel works to lead a business, because it's easier to get people to hate you. As a Diva, they like you no matter what, as long as you're hot.

 

[onelonesapper70]

I am going to have to go with Trish on this one also. She came in as "eye candy" but in truth she had been training long before her debut as a manager to be a wrestler, and to be put in the position of going from training straight to the WWE stage isnt easy. Alot of new talent gets to cut their teeth in indy's before going to the "big show". Beth does fall into the too dominant catagory because of how she has been built up, but she is a beautiful woman and a talented ring worker. But ultimately my favourite kind of Diva isn't even in this and that's the Gail Kim's. Women who are totally hot and keep your eyes glued and yet have the athletic ability in the ring to entertain and keep people interested in womens wrestling. If all you have is eye candy and dominant women to pound their faces into the mat it would get boring fast.

 

[Bernkastel]

I am going to have to go with Trish on this one also. She came in as "eye candy" but in truth she had been training long before her debut as a manager to be a wrestler, and to be put in the position of going from training straight to the WWE stage isnt easy. Alot of new talent gets to cut their teeth in indy's before going to the "big show". Beth does fall into the too dominant catagory because of how she has been built up, but she is a beautiful woman and a talented ring worker. But ultimately my favourite kind of Diva isn't even in this and that's the Gail Kim's. Women who are totally hot and keep your eyes glued and yet have the athletic ability in the ring to entertain and keep people interested in womens wrestling. If all you have is eye candy and dominant women to pound their faces into the mat it would get boring fast.

This is a different way off looking at it, but in retrospect all the divas are eye candy. Sure some may look better than others, but you can't say that one of the diva's just isn't pretty, because they wouldn't be with the company if the WWE didn't think they weren't pretty enough for the camera. That being said the WWE does rank their divas overall worth by how entertaining they are and how much money they make the company. It was by chance that Trish Stratus came into the company with no prior experience and retired the most entertaining woman of the last 25 years. Beth worked her way up through the indy circuit, a technical wrestler by trade, though usually only working matches relying on spots to pop the crowd instead of her own ring prowess. The WWE had an influx of women come from the indy circuit during the attitude era and after that struggled with working a match properly, Beth is one of those wrestlers, she's improved, but she's not on the level that Trish was. Gail Kim can be placed in that category as well, she looked great in TNA because she benefited from working with Awesome Kong, whose a much better worker than Beth is.

 

[LiberalKiller]

No offence to some of you, but, who cares? Womens wrestling in WWE is lucky to get through a match without the "boring" chants. Like last night. Frankly, most wrestling fans would agree with me. How many fn' times have fans been "into" a womens wrestling match in an arena? Snack break for me. Womens championship means utter shit. Their are exceptions, years and years ago, Chyna and Stratus were very popular....Now, not one fuckin' womens wrestler is truely "over". Who Kelly Kelly, same 3 fuckin' moves over and over....Hell, even less then Cena. No offence to "womens wrestling", in general, but it is fuckin' pointless to put it on TV, when the crowd and TV views couldn't care less with this crop of women "wrestlers". Just eyecandy folks, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Bernkastel]

No offence to some of you, but, who cares? Womens wrestling in WWE is lucky to get through a match without the "boring" chants. Like last night. Frankly, most wrestling fans would agree with me. How many fn' times have fans been "into" a womens wrestling match in an arena? Snack break for me. Womens championship means utter shit. Their are exceptions, years and years ago, Chyna and Stratus were very popular....Now, not one fuckin' womens wrestler. Who Kelly Kelly, same 3 fuckin' moves over and over....Hell, even less then Cena. No offence to "womens wrestling" but it is fuckin' pointless to put it on TV, when the crowd and TV views couldn't care less with this crop of "wrestlers". Just eyecandy folks.

I disagree, Mickie James continues to get a consistent reaction despite being stagnant at the moment, Melina usually gets a great pop, and both Michelle and Maryse generate considerate amounts of heel heat. I'm not sure what matches you have been watching from the divas, but obviously, I've seen something different.

Sure, women's wrestling isn't the draw that its male counterpart is, but to say its totally pointless when the division does have some talented entertainers is just a stupid thing to say.

 

[LiberalKiller]

I disagree, Mickie James continues to get a consistent reaction despite being stagnant at the moment, Melina usually gets a great pop, and both Michelle and Maryse generate considerate amounts of heel heat. I'm not sure what matches you have been watching from the divas, but obviously, I've seen something different.

Sure, women's wrestling isn't the draw that its male counterpart is, but to say its totally pointless when the division does have some talented entertainers is just a stupid thing to say.

Right? Did you watch the Smackdown match last night? The so-called "over" wrestlers, many you mentioned barely got a pop....Oh, did you happen to hear the boring chants, eh? What about the absolute horrible color commentary by BOTH Melina a Maryse? Weak argument. Did you look into the arena during that match? See all of the empty seats during that segment? I think you need to watch that 2 minute match....nothing but a fuckin filler which most don't care about.

 

[klunderbunker]

Stratus. While this could simply be answered by pointing out how much more important the division was when Trish and Lita actually main evented Raw for the WOmen's Title to now it being who's turn is it now to have a three month title reign that no one really cares about, I'll go a bit deeper.

Beth types are just flat out boring. She has a tiny novelty to her in her strength, but at the end of the day she's just another monster. Once that monster is defeated once, the mystique is gone. If you don't believe me, look at Awesome Kong as her reign continues to suck the very life out of the Knockouts division. Beth has to have Santino to get her over now.

Stratus types are much more interesting because of multiple reasons. Number one, her looks always get her part of the way over. It wouldn't matter if she was the worst wrestler to ever set foot into a ring, if she looked and dressed the way she did she would get a reaction. By adding on the fact that she was talented in the ring there's no way you can top her. Even without Lita Trish was an interesting character. Throw in the insane chemistry she and Lita had to give them one of the best longrunning feuds in wrestling that I've ever seen and it's just icing on the cake.

Stratus was more or less a woman that wrestled. Beth is a woman that dominates. Trish is more interesting because she loses some of the time. It's the climb back up to the top that gets us interested. Stratuses by a long shot.

 

[Bernkastel]

Right? Did you watch the Smackdown match last night? The so-called "over" wrestlers, many you mentioned barely got a pop....Oh, did you happen to hear the boring chants, eh? What about the absolute horrible color commentary by BOTH Melina a Maryse? Weak argument. Did you look into the arena during that match? See all of the empty seats during that segment? I think you need to watch that 2 minute match....nothing but a fuckin filler which most don't care about.

So one potentially bad match ruins the credibility of the performers involved? You're kidding right? It's noticeable up to this point that Maryse isn't really strong on the mic, but then again she doesn't really need to be, she draws the heat from her matches and from the mannerism of her character. I've heard Melina do a lot better on the mic, so one bad night of commentary isn't going to hurt her. The arena looked pretty full to me, and I heard no "boring" chants at all. Seems like you're in the minority with the hating divas matches.

 

[supergav67]

I know the answer but my opinion is,the women should be more about the Beths & less about the Trish,s although the latter improved the more ring time she got.
Kayfabe or fake,womens wrestling should be taken as seriously as the mens,.playboy or not,I feel over the years there shoulda been more Chynas,Kongs,Bertha Fayes,& Nicole Bass,s ,a sport where seriously,with all due respect,the Kelly Kellys wouldnt dare think of stepping into,TV,fame,money or not.
but as with most sports,the mens event is everything & the womens event is a sideshow,support act & at times .an afterthought.Like I say,I know what the ReaL answer is & we can kinda thank Madusa for dumping the Womens title on WCW for the death of remotely real womens wrestling on TV,& for the arrival of the Sables (another beth/trish comparison I guess) for the fact that there,s AnY womens matches on WWE today.

 

[captcharisma22]

Someone at the top of this thread said that "Beth is carried" by other women on the roster. Are you kidding me? The current roster has some extremely gorgeous women who seem to be continuously working hard to improve but in terms of the in-ring ability, Beth Phoenix is miles better than anyone.

And Beth is really not boring. She is very attractive, making her yet another eye candy as some others mentioned, and to add to that she has a character that is unique from any other diva on the roster. You got Maria, Kelly Kelly, and Eve Torres who are all crowd-pleasers and then you got the Micky James-Melina types who are hybrids as they mix up some good in-ring skills with decent interaction with the crowd.

Then you obviously got Michelle and Maryse who are great at getting heat despite their amazing hotness, but if you notice closely, Beth is an extremely unique character. While she is not dependent on Santino, it helps her character remain vulnerable and human unlike a "monster" as someone also mentioned. So Beth is definitely versatile and entertaining while also being good-looking, charming, and skilled in the ring.

If you look at Trish, she has most of the things in common with Beth and in terms of this thread, I feel the argument itself is flawed as Beth and Trish will go down in the books in a similar category as those who lifted the standards of the WWE women's division rather than going down in the books in completely separate categories.

 

[Bernkastel]

Someone at the top of this thread said that "Beth is carried" by other women on the roster. Are you kidding me?

no not really, In fact I've yet to see Beth Phoenix engage in a feud where she wasn't caried through the majority of the matches.

The current roster has some extremely gorgeous women who seem to be continuously working hard to improve but in terms of the in-ring ability, Beth Phoenix is miles better than anyone.

actually she's quite mediocre as a worker

And Beth is really not boring.

Yeah thanks to the women that have carried her, so you should be thanking Candice, Mickie, and Melina for making Beth look so good.

She is very attractive, making her yet another eye candy as some others mentioned

me again

and to add to that she has a character that is unique from any other diva on the roster.

Your point being? As many of the other women on the roster also have a character unique to themselves.

If you look at Trish, she has most of the things in common with Beth and in terms of this thread, I feel the argument itself is flawed as Beth and Trish will go down in the books in a similar category as those who lifted the standards of the WWE women's division rather than going down in the books in completely separate categories.

I remember people were saying the same thing about Trish and Victoria years ago and looked how things turned out for the two of them.

 

[captcharisma22]

Okay...it's your opinion then...I don't need to argue my point to someone who is not going to listen to it anyways...in my opinion, if anything, Beth has carried so many of these divas (Melina, Mickie) and gotten face pops for them. Besides, by uniqueness in character, I clearly demonstrated how other divas fit in similar categories but Beth has her own category similar to the way Trish did...Victoria was a great worker but she didn't have the spark that Beth does so clearly, comparing Victoria with Beth is not a good idea...at the moment, Beth is overall the top DIVA in the company and the fact that she has the most powerful storylines written for her in the DIVAS division effectively proves my point...I have seen that you differ so no need to come back begging me to agree with you because I won't change my opinion either!

 

[Bernkastel]

Okay...it's your opinion then...I don't need to argue my point to someone who is not going to listen to it anyways...in my opinion, if anything

No, its not an opinion, I can prove to you that Beth was carried in those matches if you want me to.

Beth has carried so many of these divas (Melina, Mickie) and gotten face pops for them.

She's carried none of them, and obviously you don't know what it means to carry someone. The wrestler carrying the match is one doing most of the work, they're the one's selling the moves, calling the spots, and making the match flow and look believable. Beth wasn't the one doing those things.

Besides, by uniqueness in character, I clearly demonstrated how other divas fit in similar categories but Beth has her own category similar to the way Trish did...

And By the the way you explained it, I countered by saying that most of the other divas could fit in that category as well, because like Beth, they too have their own unique gimmick/ personality.

Victoria was a great worker

Victoria was a terrible worker, and she proved it time and time again. She was a jobber towards the end of her career, not because she chose to be, but because she could never cut it as an upper echelon female entertainer.

Beth is overall the top DIVA in the company

nah, she's probably rounding the top 5 at this point

and the fact that she has the most powerful storylines written for her in the DIVAS division effectively proves my point...

How does this prove your point? How does Beth having a storyline where she beats the other divas in a dominating fashion make her a good wrestler? That doesn't make much sense. Next you'll be trying to sell me that Chyna was a good champion, ROFL!.

 

[z99zazn]

While I think that Phoenix is the best pure-wrestling diva since Chyna in the WWE, a diva like Stratus is a lot better for business. IMO, I really don't like Diva's matches. I'm not sure if I'm in the minority or not there, but I really don't find them too entertaining. I'd rather see Stratus in a bra and panties match or some other stupid gimmick match than Beth Phoenix vs Melina anyday.

 

[y2empleh]

I'm actually gonna go with the minority and pick Phoenix. Here's why: The WWE and wrestling NEED her to help them get over the other divas. They were retrying to get Mickie over: the put her in a feud with Beth. Same for Melina, Kelly Kelly, and now eventually Rosa Mendes. She is booked as a big dominant female so when she loses to melina, mickie, kelly, etc it will make them look better. Would those divas look as good getting a win over Jillian? Of course not. Wrestling NEEDS people like Beth. I read someone say "well beth always wins, it's boring". Beth always winning is the point. If she lost every week it wouldn't feel as "special" when she lost. However with her being so dominant, when she does lose it makes the moment seem extra special. Unfortunately for her, those superstars that she is meant to "look good" will never get over as much as a Lita or Trish so it looks bad on her as well, although I'm not entirely sure that is her fault.

 

[KingShaw3]

Stratus... but who cares. All WWE cares about is having hot women because their looks sale, not their in-ring abilities. As for people saying Beth has carried people like Mickie James is pure stupidity. Mickie James is ten times the worker that Beth is. If Mickie was as strong as Beth then sure she could do Beth's three power moves too. Bottom line though is no one wants to watch these women wrestle. It just takes time off the card that should have been used to build younger talent. What happened to the good old days when there were a few women wrestlers and the rest of the women were interviewers or managers. The only female managers in the business now are Katie Lea and Natalya. The problem with that though is that when you hear Burchill's or Tyson Kidd's music and think 'oh who are they fighting?' you find out their female counterpart is coming out to do some hair pulling instead.

 

[Tastycles]

A Stratus kind is definitely better for the company. But if you have a few in this mould, it certainly helps to have a Beth Phoenix-esque one on there too. Allow me to elaborate...

Beth Phoenix, Chyna and Awesome Kong were the three examples mentioned, and all three of these women are considerably stronger than the average diva. If you have one in your company that dominates for a while then you can really bolster the interest in the division by having a Trish type diva going over them.

When Chyna left the company, she did it whilst still being the champion. Had that not happened, I don't doubt that Trish or Lita would have eventually dethroned her, and people would have given far more of a shit than they did do when Trish won the vacated title. Giving the divas this sort of person to overcome is always a real crowd pleaser, as was shown twice last year when Mickie James and Taylor Wilde went over Beth and Kong respectively.

So, in short, the roster should contain mostly people like Stratus and Lita, but also the occaisional Beth to mix it up a bit.

 

[captcharisma22]

Y2empleh:
"I'm actually gonna go with the minority and pick Phoenix. Here's why: The WWE and wrestling NEED her to help them get over the other divas. They were retrying to get Mickie over: the put her in a feud with Beth. Same for Melina, Kelly Kelly, and now eventually Rosa Mendes. She is booked as a big dominant female so when she loses to melina, mickie, kelly, etc it will make them look better. Would those divas look as good getting a win over Jillian? Of course not. Wrestling NEEDS people like Beth. I read someone say "well beth always wins, it's boring". Beth always winning is the point. If she lost every week it wouldn't feel as "special" when she lost. However with her being so dominant, when she does lose it makes the moment seem extra special. Unfortunately for her, those superstars that she is meant to "look good" will never get over as much as a Lita or Trish so it looks bad on her as well, although I'm not entirely sure that is her fault."

Y2emple definitely got my point - Phoenix is carrying the other divas in the sense that even though the others are talented too, their in-ring work needs a boost.

And the other guy dissecting each of my statements above needs to get a life and look at the bigger picture here. I don't need to prove to you that I know the meaning of each and every term, including "carry", which is a very basic term for a long-time wrestling fan like myself. The one who needs to get updated is you - maybe you never saw a Phoenix match because you just conclude things so prematurely...if you could only "prove" anything to me! Therefore your opinion is merely an opinion and like I said, don't come back crying to convince me otherwise because for me, Beth is definitely the real deal.

On another note, the fact that this topic generated such a buzz shows that the Divas do actually mean something to the entertainment value of the company and without them, I would feel that the show is slightly incomplete. I rest my case!

 

[Bernkastel]

And the other guy dissecting each of my statements above needs to get a life and look at the bigger picture here.

I can clearly see the bigger picture, I think you are the one that needs to get their eyesight checked

I don't need to prove to you that I know the meaning of each and every term, including "carry", which is a very basic term for a long-time wrestling fan like myself.

If it's so basic of a term then how come you didn't know what it meant?

The one who needs to get updated is you - maybe you never saw a Phoenix match because you just conclude things so prematurely

I am updated, and I've seen plenty of Beth Phoenix matches and I can tell you without question that she isn't the best worker on the roster.

...if you could only "prove" anything to me!

I will, and I'll use facts to do so

Therefore your opinion is merely an opinion and like I said, don't come back crying to convince me otherwise because for me, Beth is definitely the real deal.

Er no, I use facts to support my opinion, and my argument, while you make empty claims based on nothing but ignorance and lunacy to back up yours.

And to set the record straight so there's no confusion, I'm not trying to say that you as an individual can't find Beth entertaining, or the most entertaining, but to suggest that she's the best at what she does is just stupid especially when there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that would suggest otherwise.

Y2emple definitely got my point - Phoenix is carrying the other divas in the sense that even though the others are talented too, their in-ring work needs a boost.

actually his post was very different from yours, he accumulated Phoenix's credibility from a booking standpoint, stating that the women that beat Beth would receive a rub and added credibility because Beth is pushed as a dominate force. The WWE did the same thing with Kane in the late 90's, with Brock Lesnar in 2003, and are doing that now with Vladimir Kozlov currently. However, Beth's booking does nothing to reflect on how good of a worker she is, when she clearly isn't the best worker on the roster, which is the basis of your argument. I'm not trying to get you to admit that Beth isn't entertaining, but to lay claim on something that's clearly not correct isn't going to fly, so if verbally correcting you won't work, then I'll have to visually correct you.

Beth vs Candice Unforgiven

[youtube]0elWjCA6OfI&feature=related[/youtube]

Beth vs Mickie RAW

[youtube]9TA6MGxVCOg[/youtube]

Beth vs Melina I QUIT

http://www.dailymotion.com/search/b...oio8_beth-phenix-vs-melina-i-quit-match_sport

3 great matches, 3 different opponents, Beth Phoenix carried through all 3

The sad thing is that I know you're going to try and rip this post apart while ignoring one big positive to come from the evidence. Referencing the beginning of the thread. Its hardly fair to compare the Trish's to the Beth's since Trish was in a league of her own, and while Beth, she may not be the worker that Melina or Maryse is, but she's very good at something else.

 

[jazwaz1]

I disagree, Mickie James continues to get a consistent reaction despite being stagnant at the moment, Melina usually gets a great pop, and both Michelle and Maryse generate considerate amounts of heel heat. I'm not sure what matches you have been watching from the divas, but obviously, I've seen something different.

Sure, women's wrestling isn't the draw that its male counterpart is, but to say its totally pointless when the division does have some talented entertainers is just a stupid thing to say.

Melina gets a great pop?

Maryse generates considerate heel heat?


..... is there something wrong with your TV, lol? I'm easily one of the bigger Melina fans on this board, but to say she is over or getting a "great" pop is laughable. What I see on the TV and what I hear... is the crowd not giving the shit. I, Hammy and plenty of other Melina fans would tell you... as a face, she's BARELY getting a reaction from this crowd.

I shall provide Youtube videos if necessary.

=

To answer the thread, a Stratus. She could get the crowd to love or hate her on her own while Beth needs Santino to even get a reaction.

 

[Bernkastel]

Melina gets a great pop?

She's no John Cena, but I don't hear crickets when I watch her matches

Maryse generates considerate heel heat?

again, I don't know what your expectations are, but Maryse generates plenty of heel heat. What are you, comparing her to Edge?

is there something wrong with your TV, lol?

my TV works perfectly, as do my ears

I'm easily one of the bigger Melina fans on this board, but to say she is over or getting a "great" pop is laughable.

How so? The Entire divas division is in the undercard, half of them get crickets when they wrestle. Melina is one of the few women that can generate some form of interest from the fans when she wrestles, that puts her over the undercard male wrestlers that get crickets in their squash and spot matches.

What I see on the TV and what I hear... is the crowd not giving the shit.

Funny, I don't hear any boring chant's or you can't wrestle, or in the case of the women, the catcall taunt, I don't really hear those during Melina's match's.

I, Hammy and plenty of other Melina fans would tell you... as a face, she's BARELY getting a reaction from this crowd.

If you're expecting Melina to get Trish like reactions in her matches, I think your expectations might be a bit too high, if not then I think Melina does just fine for herself.

I shall provide Youtube videos if necessary

go right ahead

 

[ad21k]

Trish Stratus is the greatest women's wrestler ever, so there really is no contest, and her match with Mickie at WM was probably the greatest womens match ever, certainly at wrestlemania. Beth Phoenix is ok, not great but she can at least wrestle unlike the majority of women in the WWE. In my opinion there defiantly is a market for women's wrestling, however the talent WWE has at the moment is very limited. There is only Mickie really who is good enough all round to be champion. However she's already feuded with everyone on Raw so there isn't any decent feuds for her + shes taking more and more time off. Melina does the job she's not very good but she's not awful bad like most of the diva's.

 

[KingSnake]

Probably the most entertaining aspect of the Divas is their role in the storyline... as far as wrestling goes it's just like the WNBA. You know it exists, and don't have a problem with it... but you don't watch it either.

When Mickie James had the story going with Trish Stratus... that was probably the most entertaining line that I can probably ever remember. They didn't have matches early on... just more in ring confrontations (remember the bloody nose kiss?)

I don't think they really go for in-ring quality though I'd put someone like Victoria at the top of that class. They are really there simply to sell posters and fuel eleventeen year old boy's *********ory fantasies...

While I appreciate their looks.. I always fast forward through the matches. They've really struggled to come up with any compelling backstories either... which doesn't help my attention span.

I really don't think they need to feature every week... maybe some chauvinistic objectifying matches every once in a while... waterfights, bra and panties... (Don't hate... they don't have breast implants to enhance their athletic ability)