When will the fans, especially Canadians, stop whining about the "Montreal Screwjob"?

[Milkyway!]

Well you really do need to look at the situation as to why Canada would still hate the company after all these years. Canada is short on things to do, quite often, due to their extremely ******ed weather, certain sports are offlimits. Over the centuries Hockey, and Professional Wrestling have become huge sports for the Canadian peoples.

Now, Bret Hart became the poster boy for Candian based wrestling throughout his luxurious career with the WWE. Once the Screwjob occured, it was like shreding many, many, of the Candian fans hearts. Just the way it occured, was nasty, and the way it played out afterwards, was just as nasty. The fans simply can't let go. Wrestling automatically reminds them of Bret Hart, and Bret Hart automatically reminds them of the Montreal Screwjob.

Thus, they still chant "You screwed Bret" at the Candian arenas.

 

[CaptainZaltan]

I don't think we call our celebrities "heroes" though. There is a fascination with celebrities, but we as a country as a whole, don't view them as "heroes", apparently like how you view those in your country.

Celebrity worship is the same thing and you know it. Terminology is irrelevant; we are talking about a celebrity being treated as though they are more valuable or important than they actually are. 'National hero' is Michael Landsberg's line, and some fans choose to repeat it. We both know that the word 'hero' is thrown around far too much on both sides of the border. Every week some reality show originating in the US calls someone a 'hero' because they grew up poor, or have a disease, or whatever else is convenient to stir up viewers emotions. It doesn't mean anything.

The fact is, you are basing your entire argument off of an assumption that the entirety of Canada or even Canadian wrestling fans must truly and honestly feel that Bret Hart is a 'national hero' because one sportscaster and a handful of marks use the term. By the same logic, I guess that the contestants on 'American Idol' must really be idols for the entire country, and contestants on 'Greatest American Hero' must really be heroes themselves? Do you really want me to go out and pull up a ton of references depicting the American media, T.V shows, or just the average joe using the term 'hero' improperly? Because that would be about as relevant.

As has been stated NUMEROUS times in this thread, the 'you screwed Bret' chants have little to do with Bret being a 'national hero'. There is a vocal minority of Canadian wrestling fans who have exaggerated Bret's cultural relevance and who continue to overreact to the Montreal screw job. The vast majority of chanters are either playing along or being egged into chanting by the WWE.

Your markhood for your country and the way you treat anyone that appears on Canadian television is clearly noticeable, and people have picked up on it outside of your country. Therefore, you will be mocked for it, if it is something we deem to be ridiculous. You can feel free to mock the United States for things, too.

You mean reacting more strongly for celebrities that are actually relevant to our culture and whom we have more in common with?

As for 'markhood' for one's country, Americans are easily among the most patriotic people on Earth, and that's been picked up on by people outside of your country. IMO there's nothing wrong with that, but lets not go throwing rocks when we live in a glass house, 'eh'?

And I have no interest in mocking the United States, because that would be stupid and immature. I am only interested in pointing out the inherent hypocrisy in what you are saying.

That's because there aren't enough Pro Wrestling fans in Canada to accomplish this. If you Canadian Wrestling fans had your way, he probably would be since Hart is such a "National Hero" to you, and all.

Where do you get this crap, man? You've actually elected pro wrestlers and actors to public office in your country. That has not and will not happen here. A lot of Canadian wrestling fans don't even like Bret Hart.

Hogan wasn't viewed as a National Hero even back in the height of his popularity in the 80's. I grew up in the 80's and can safely testify to that.

You speak as though there's some sort of 'National Hero appointment committee' which officially sanctions the use of the term in our respective countries. Hogan was a 'hero' to an entire generation of young American wrestling fans and to many more thanks to his media crossovers. That makes him as much of a 'national hero' as Bret Hart is to Canadians. Except of course, Hogan was a hell of a lot more culturally relevant in the United States. He had a cartoon show, a crap-load of merchandise, tv shows, movies, commercials, even an album. You can call someone whatever you want. It's the relevance and accuracy of the label that is important. Yes, a sportscaster and a few wrestling fans have called Bret Hart a 'national hero', but in no way is that label representative of his actual position within Canadian culture. Bret is barely a blip on the radar for most Canadians. I don't even remember the last time I heard his name mentioned in our media.

A more accurate description of Bret's actual cultural status is that he is of above average fame and relevance for a professional wrestler. This is because we have fewer athletes (particularly celebrity status athletes) than the US, because wrestling is more culturally relevant in Canada than in the US and because Bret was the first Canadian to achieve worldwide fame and success in the industry, and of course (like Hogan) because of his gimmick and what he did while he was in the industry. This combines to make Bret more culturally relevant and famous than a professional wrestler probably should be, but it certainly doesn't make him a nationally known figure and certainly not a hero. When Canada builds a bronze statue to Bret, awards him medals for bravery or honor, writes a ballad singing of his glory, or creates a national holiday in his honor, than I MIGHT accept that he has become a Canadian national hero.

We think you are utterly ridiculous.
/
We don't take the country thing personally, like you do.

Obviously not.

There are plenty of Americans who despise Canada because of the perception that we dislike you. There have been plenty of times when disrespect for the United States by another country or it's residents has made the national news in your country. There is nothing wrong with reacting defensively when someone insults your country. But it is childish to pretend that you don't care, when all the evidence is to the contrary.

It's called "relocation". Stars relocate to the States, because it's evidently easier on them and they want to live here. Warmer weather does it for them, I think.

Bullshit. Wrestlers are generally billed from their hometowns. 'Hometown' meaning the place they were born or grew up. Sure, there are exceptions with wrestlers being billed from 'parts unknown' or other nationalities, but this is always done as a part of the wrestlers gimmick. The wrestlers in question were billed from their hometowns for the entirety of their careers, up until a very particular period in time during which the WWE started announcing them from American cities. You know why this was done.

And if you won't accept this as an argument that hometown/nationality matters in the U.S as well, than how about trying to explain the career of Hacksaw Jim Duggan?

Sure, to a degree, especially if you are someone small. But I tell you, that mentality is on its deathbed when it comes to Pro Wrestling here in the United States. Flair is one of the last few left that still gets a "Hometown Ovation" in "Flair Country".

I don't know what shows you are watching, but whenever I watch wrestling 'hometown' is a big factor in crowd reaction, and the WWE's announcers apparently agree with me since they mention it every time. This is also true of pretty much every organized sporting event on the planet. Hell, people still cheer whenever someone famous even mentions the name of their hometown on tv. Just watch any late night talk shows and see what happens when Colbert or Letterman drops the name of a city/state.

Now, what is it going to take for you fans to stop whining about the Montreal "Screwjob"? The answer is "When Canadians decide to grow up and mature with their thought process towards how they treat Pro Wrestlers". When they stop treating them as heroes, then they will stop whining, because they will then realize that it isn't something they should give a damn about.

What is it going to take for you, Lord Sidious, to stop whining about how pro wrestling fans choose to exercise their rights to cheer/boo/chant whatever the hell they want to? Plenty of Canadians here have told you that the chants don't mean anything personal, and are just a way of playing along. Plenty of people have pointed out that the WWE encourages the chants and that they are now a part of wrestling mythology within Canada (particularly Montreal). You're the only one who seems to really give a damn.

Life goes on elsewhere in every other place, but Canada, evidently. Pathetic.

Life goes on here, as well. As a matter of fact, most of the other posters on this forum have been detached enough from the issue to discuss it with some degree of civility, without trading petty insults against one another's nationalities. I don't know if you are a massive mark for HBK, or the WWE (or Hebner?), or if you can't tolerate anyone reacting 'against the script', or if you simply don't like us, but you have gone out of your way to be spiteful and negative towards Canadian wrestling fans and Canadians in general, based entirely on the fact that a select group of wrestling fans are expressing themselves in a manner that you find irritating (but which the WWE actively encourages). You call Vince a troll, but then you deliberately imply that Canada is 'pathetic' in your closing sentence, obviously to be insulting and/or to stir up more of a reaction. There's really no point in continuing this discussion, because it seems to have little to do with pro wrestling. Just get over it already.

 

[Mr. TM]

Usually I don't post much in these threads, because it is different people bring up the same debate over and over, without looking into the historical and social lessons that have been taught by other people. But there is one post that made me shake my head, in a way that only Milk can.

over 25% of people of Canada live in a little area called The Golden Horseshoe, and over half live in the Great Lakes-St Lawrence River region. And over 90% live within an hour of the American border, the reasons are simple why we live there, it is because of Staple's Theory. It is warm, and we can grow better crops there historically. That means that most of the population lives somewhere relatively warm, so its not like we are covered in snow all year long, Milk. In fact, the region I live in hardly ever gets snow, and stays above 35F all year long. that was one of the smallest statements I have ever heard.

On to the real question, the debate on Canada and their chanting of "You Scewed Bret". First of all, you need to look at it without your ethnocentric sunglasses on. Canada and America/Britain/anywhere else are not alike culturally, although there are large similarities.

Bret Hart is a national hero, a lot of you have heard he placed 39th in our Greatest Canadian contest. He is a loved man in Canada, as many of our people who have made it large on a world stage are. It is hard to make a similar comparison, because in the last 10 years, wrestling has died off around the western world, especially in Canada, where there are few fans left.

But those of us who do remember when Bret Hart was screwed remember it well. Canadians have a large chip on our shoulder, as out Prime Minster Pierre Elliot Trudeau once stated, "we are in bed with an elephant". The elephant is America. 60% of our economy is based with this nation, and we have been locked in with it through NATAO, NAFTA, and plenty of other unionizing agreements. I wish not to discuss all of the political relations with America, but just to make the point clear, there are many. America has 308 million people living there, as opposed to Canada's 33 million. That means we are about 1/9th the size in population. Many feel we must work harder to get our native born sons and daughters up on the center stage in a shared entertainment market. If you were in a position where you could only represent 10% of a stage, you would sit in the bleachers and hope for your underdog.

When Bret was "screwed", as this debate discusses that we are from the position that he was (Though that point is debatable and will continue to debated as this very debate will). Canada took it personally, as the Elephant squashed our small share in a market. I am sure Vince McMahon wasn't trying to alienate Canada, it is just what happens, you kill a bear, and the mother will never forget, as the old Canadian saying goes.

Canadians hardly bring up the point now, outside of events in the city, it is not something even Canadian wrestling fans discuss. The only time it is ever brought up outside of the show is when outsides, or a company itself is bring it up to sell a product. Vince McMahon knows he can milk the issue, and that is what he does, because he is a businessman. It is the same reason Hornswoggle is on your screen, and it is the reason Bret Hart is signed to a contract starting on New Years Day. To make money. That is why He runs a successful business. It might make a shit product, but it makes a shit load of money.

But do you know why Canadian's chant "You screwed Bret". I can't completely answer that question, I am 1 of a million Canadian wrestling fans (if there are that many). My thesis is that Canadians chant "You Screwed Bret" similarly to the Canucks fans waving a white towel, similar to how Saskatchewan Roughriders fans wear a watermelon helmet to games, and since the people I am appealing this to probably aren't familiar with those, I will say similar to cheese heads in Green Bay, "WHO DAT" chants for The Saints (apparently) and so forth. It is a built in tradition, a chant of some sorths, that brings in fans together, being the person they cheer for. Chanting You Screwed Bret is a nationalist unifying chant against our "opponent" in favour of our hero.

Is Canada too National? Is that even the debate here? I guess the term National should be probably discussed. Is cheering for your nation at the Olympics Nationalistic? Yeah, but it is healthy. Is cheering for a Canadian in wrestling too national? I don't know, but it sure gives the audience a position.

For that last statement, I look at the NHL. 50% of the NHL players are Canadian. Because we have such a wide share of the stage, a stage we might represent 10% of elsewhere, we feel we do not have to push a nationalist side. That is why in my home town, I could find more Dallas Star Fans then I could find Toronto Maple Leaf fans.

But back to the question of Nationalism. I see limited Canadian flags flown, I see little support for the troops, I bet no one in my apartment knows the term "Peace, Order and Good Government". I really doubt we are a nationalist country. I might be more so, but it relates to my study and future career as a Canadian social historian, and I know I am far more patriotic than my girlfriend, my parents, my neighbours, my friends, or even the Canadian historian who is going to move on into the military as an office after school that I know.

I hope that shed some light onto this discussion. My main point is we are proud of our talent such as Bret Hart, but the chant is little more than that, a chant we cheer unified at sporting events. I'm not sure I buy the whole different culture for wrestling in Canada, it is a dead tradition in the wider array now, as wrestling is, a taboo it seems for me to be a fan, but all you have to do is look at what Canada has to be proud of. Bret and Owen Hart, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Christian, Lance Storm, and many other current and recent greats have come from our country and it is something that Canadian fans know and love.

 

[The Roid Rage]

When Hulk Hogan got screwed out of titles, the US said "well that sucks" and went and turned on a Yankee game.

I think that statement plays right into what Sidious is saying. People here aren't going to hold a grudge for 12 years because a guy in a predetermined sport got screwed in some way. We switch the channel and watch the Yankees win the World Series.

Don't act like you actually understand the situation because you don't

That's all up to interpretation.

Don't act like your country doesn't view wrestlers as heroes because I recall guys like Stone Cold and Hogan getting treated like gods there.

Once again and in all fairness though, Sidious was right about this one. Here in the U.S. professional wrestlers may have adoring fans, but are faaaaar from viewed as National Heroes in any way. As most of you Canadians probably experience as we do, the sporting press doesn't even acknowledge Professional Wrestling, so these guys never had a chance to begin with. Hogan was the exception more than the rule, and you should also remember that it was mostly American Fans who made Bret who he is in your country and ours. Why do I say that? Because as it has been agreed the major market is here in North America, the United States. This is where he made it big, so in some ways you can thank us for making him who he is in your country. Martyr status and all.

we're never gonna puts someone like DH Smith over someone like Shawn Michaels because we understand Michaels is 100 time more talented than DH

I can't vouch for anyone else, but I at least appreciate this little bit of honesty, and thought I'd make a note of it.

As for pro wrestlers being viewed as National Heroes, I would argue that Hulk Hogan is more a 'national hero' to the US as Bret Hart is to Canadians.

Here is where you would be wrong. I get the perception of it though so I understand where the statement comes from. Hogan's public and personal image have been destroyed in the U.S. for the most part. You could have said that in 1988 or so and been right on the money, but in todays society not so much anymore, and as I stated earlier we made Bret the same kind of figure in Canada.

He's actually much more relevant to the average American than Bret is to the average Canadian.

That's an opinion given in an argument where you are too emotionally and personally invested. You can't make that claim and expect it to be taken as fact in any way, shape, or form. There is no way to really tell one way or another.

This entire notion of Bret Hart as a 'national hero' was started by Michael Landsberg on 'Off the Record'; it is NOT the viewpoint of all Canadians.

Well, someone better get the memo to Bret than that he isn't a National Hero because he sure ass hell thinks he is. No matter what the census is in Canada amongst the population in it's entirety, it is commonly stated by the wrestling fans that Bret is this big National Hero. So, where the actual body of the country do not agree, there is still this minority that is saying that, and that support the argument.

I come to this site to discuss pro wrestling, not to have my country indicted or criticized.

As mostly a bystander I'd have to say the same thing.

YOU need to get the hell over making massive generalizations about an entire country and people based on what a few people say on a wrestling forum.

On the contrary, I think the comments made by Lord Sidious were taken that way, more than they were meant that way. I think he was making more of a general statement in reference to the small minority who hold Bret so high as a whole rather than the country. He could have been more clear on that point though.

Why the Fuck are you protecting scripted Pro Wrestlers?

This is a good point, and part of the foundation of this mans argument. It makes sense what he's saying. It's not like these guys are boxer or hockey players in real competition.

Don't make country an issue and just Get the Fuck over it.

I agree with this statement, but feel that both sides of the argument are in need of acknowledging it.

A cheap pop? He got a standing ovation when he "won the Raw contract" against Eugene. He also got a huge ovation when he came out.

You know what would have happened if "The American Kid" came out in a mask, decked out in stars and stripes, in one of our arenas? The place would have fell dead silent because they would have been thinking "Who the fuck are you, and why should we bother even reacting to you?"

Even if you don't like it, you have to admit that this has a lot of truth to it. I realize it isn't stated in the most sensitive way, but the facts remains that this is a good point.

Quit treating Pro Wrestlers like they are some kind of National Heroes like in the Olympics, or something. If it's scripted entertainment, there is no reason to cheer for someone simply because of where they are from. And that mentality may exist in a very small degree in the States with people like Flair, but mark my words, that mentality is also on its death bed in the States, as well

Once again, very solid point and I'll back that up. This is the real point to the argument. Take away the more anger fueled stuff and strip it down to stuff like this, and it is a really good argument. The only flaw in that thinking is that it is not up to anyone to tell someone who to cheer or for what reasons, but since it became apart of the argument it has been discussed and in this one I think Lord Sidious was right on point.

Celebrity worship is one thing. But do we cheer them because they are from the United States, or because they are celebrities?

Point noted. How can you really argue against that? It's the truth. People here don't love Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt because they are from anywhere here. It's because they are considered great actors and they are attractive. Beyond that they aren't considered national heroes as a result, they are celebrities.

If Jericho were an American, would we refer to him as "an insult to Americans"? No. We wouldn't even think of it. People who didn't like him in our country would call him an "asshole". One's country doesn't even enter the equation.

This is just aiding the above stated, and makes a solid point again.

Hogan was a celebrity, and a well-known one. He is a household name. But again, he is not viewed as a "National Hero". Never was and never will be.

This was in reference to someone trying to say that Hulk Hogan was more of a "Hero" to Americans, than Bret is to Canadians. I think once again Lord Sidious makes a clear distinction between the status of both men. As he said "Never was and never will be".

Well, Bret Hart thinks of himself as one, as well. So that doesn't help. But again, I have heard many Canadian fans in interviews also classify Hart as a "National Hero", and the way all of you go on about the Screwjob to this day only fuels those accusations.

can you really say any different than what Sidious pointed out here. It's not like he is making the argument so much as it has already been made by you the Canadian wrestling fans. Nowhere in there does he lump all Canadians into one group either. Throughout the whole thing he makes it very clear he is talking about the wrestling fans more so than the country as a whole, so I don't think you should be accusing him of that.

Big Fucking Deal. Bret Hart was told a false finish of a wrestling contest. BIG FUCKING DEAL.

This is the point right here. That is really all that happened. It's not like it happened to all the fans, it happened to one guy, yet a lot of the Canadian fans act like Vince did that to them personally or like it was something personally done to the fans when they had nothing to do with it. That is why people just need to let it go.

your not Canadian and you have no clue what you are talking about

Being Canadian or not being Canadian has nothing to do with it, and has nothing to do with having any input on the scenario, or what a person does or doesn't know. The only relevance that it has to the situation has already been mentioned and that is the Canadian fans obsession with the Montreal Screwjob, and their inability to let it go which is the real thing in question here. Not Americans, not how we view our celebrities and those we do call heroes. As a matter of fact as Americans we have little to do with it, other than the fact that we are on the outside looking in which generally gives you a better view and perspective on any given scenario.

I do take a bit of offense to people like you thinking shit like your somehow superior to Canadians

Nowhere did Lord Sidious say he or anyone else was superior to Canadians. That response is a direct example of why he is saying you have an inferiority complex as well. No one said it, you assumed it, which points to a sub conscious inferiority complex if at all. Besides, some of the best wrestlers in the business have been Canadian, so there is really no need to feel that way to begin with.

its all in good fun, there is no bad feelings towards vince or shawn (if I met either guy, I would shake their hand for all the great hours of entertainment they provided because thats all that matters, not politics or screwjobs) and we do it more because it has become tradition, hell even huge Shawn Michaels fans will chant "You Screwed Bret" in Canada. We are not obligated to act a certain way, nor should we.

Well even if it is all in good fun, it rehashes and reopens old wounds from something that happened a long time ago that was painful for Vince, Bret, Shawn and the idea behind this topic is that people should just let it be, and forget about it. It's getting old, the argument of who screwed who, people holding grudges, and the Canadian fans never letting them forget about it and never letting it go.

The only other thing I will say about the above quoted is that the one thing that is really true is that NO, you are not obligated to act a certain way, nor should you. But you should still understand where everyone else is coming from, and I think for the most part you do. You're just not seeing past some of the argument made by Sidious because of the offensive material in his posts, but he made a lot of good points regardless and you should at least acknowledge that.

Celebrity worship is the same thing and you know it. Terminology is irrelevant; we are talking about a celebrity being treated as though they are more valuable or important than they actually are

Actually there is a big difference. Celebrity worship is not the same as naming a professional wrestler a National Hero to your country. We don't consider our actors, actresses, athletes, and entertainers as National Heroes in the slightest. Do we hold them in high regards, yes. But that is still quite a stretch from making someone your national posterboy. Secondly I doesn't matter why you do it, if it's because wrestling is a bigger deal up there or whatever. In some peoples opinions that is dumb, not necessarily mine, but it is to Lord Sidious, and some of his points in regards to that were very accurate.

The fact is, you are basing your entire argument off of an assumption that the entirety of Canada or even Canadian wrestling fans must truly and honestly feel that Bret Hart is a 'national hero'.

Is that not how his place in Canadian society and so on has been depicted? It most surely has, it's not so much an assumption as it has been made more to be common knowledge. Is that your fault or the fault of Lord Sidious, no. But the fact stands that, that is how Bret Hart is depicted in every way, shape, and form. So, that being said, what else is someone to go off of ??? All the information about the guy they have ever been fed??? Or just the words of a few people who happen to live in Canada??? Get the picture???

By the same logic, I guess that the contestants on 'American Idol' must really be idols for the entire country, and contestants on 'Greatest American Hero' must really be heroes themselves?

We both know that is nothing like what we are talking about here, and is really a spin on logic. That is nothing like the kind of accolades we are talking about with Bret Hart. Those people are television stars and very small ones at that. Also, no one has ever tried place any of them National Heroes in any way. I know, I know it sounds the same "National Hero" "American Idol" but please...Your smarter than that aren't you?? Obviously you have to see the distinction between the two. There is a level of importance and reverence that goes along with one, that is not shared by the other.

There is a vocal minority of Canadian wrestling fans who have exaggerated Bret's cultural relevance and who continue to overreact to the Montreal screw job. The vast majority of chanters are either playing along or being egged into chanting by the WWE.

Yeees, and that is who we're talking about, that was exactly Lord Sidious's point. You just sealed his argument for him there in admitting the very things he was trying to prove. It seems you make the inference that was not so some how? As if some how it was all meant directly at you which is a false pretense of your own it seem. I may be mistaken, but that is what you seem to be projecting.

Americans are easily among the most patriotic people on Earth, and that's been picked up on by people outside of your country.

You know what? That is probably the nicest thing I have ever heard anyone say about America or it's people, and I have to thank you a million times over for that. I do believe we are among the most patriotic people on Earth, and it is something I and my family have always been very proud of. For you to verify that from a source outside this country says a lot, and I personally couldn't be more proud or flattered. Thank you very much for saying that. Most of the world seems to only think negative things about America and it's people, but what you said there shows a little bit of the opposite, and for that I am grateful. This is all of topic but that meant more to me than anything to do with this topic, so once again, thank you so much.

You've actually elected pro wrestlers and actors to public office in your country.

Uhhh, yeaaah. I guess there is some explaining to do on that one, not our proudest moments there. You have to look at the places where that happened though. California, and Minnesota ok. Now California may be the sunniest state, but definitely not the brightest, and Minnesota isn't known for it's intelligence either. Also, California is the home of Hollywood, and you have to know that, that was basically Hollywood electing one of it's own, not as much the people supporting the political ideas of a candidate. As for Minnesota, they are known as the dumbest people in the U.S. from everything I have gathered. I have also known different sets of people who were from there and all those people were pretty stupid too. They just wanted someone who was neither Democrat or Republican and good ol' Jesse just happened to run as an Independent, YAAAaaaaynevermind,lol.

Hogan was a 'hero' to an entire generation of young American wrestling fans and to many more thanks to his media crossovers. That makes him as much of a 'national hero' as Bret Hart is to Canadians. Except of course, Hogan was a hell of a lot more culturally relevant in the United States.

You've got a point there, but Hogan was from a different generation when the business was very different as well. Also like I said way earlier, Hogan is the exception more than the rule. Now I know Hart is "From" that same generation of wrestlers, but he didn't get his real fame until things were moving away from the Hogan era, and started to move into the Attitude Era which was a time that wasn't going to allow anyone in America to be as big as Hogan was at one time.

Yes, a sportscaster and a few wrestling fans have called Bret Hart a 'national hero', but in no way is that label representative of his actual position within Canadian culture. Bret is barely a blip on the radar for most Canadians. I don't even remember the last time I heard his name mentioned in our media.

Something for you to understand though is that, that is not the public story that has been given to any of us, or even acknowledged by anyone but you few people in this thread who are saying otherwise. That is why you are running into so much flack about it, which isn't your fault, but you have to understand that it has been sold as to the American public, and the wrestling community as much more than you are letting on. That has been the status quo on Bret Hart for years, and your trying argue that it is anything but that. Now you see why this has been such a struggle???

There are plenty of Americans who despise Canada because of the perception that we dislike you.

That is very true and really unfortunate when you look at it.

I don't know what shows you are watching, but whenever I watch wrestling 'hometown' is a big factor in crowd reaction, and the WWE's announcers apparently agree with me since they mention it every time.

I'm still fuzzy on this one. I mean, people get a bigger pop in their hometowns of course, but it is not the drive and force behind their popularity as it was with Bret in Canada for the reasons you yourself noted. I think Sidious is right to some degree when he says that it is a dying mentality.

What is it going to take for you, Lord Sidious, to stop whining about how pro wrestling fans choose to exercise their rights to cheer/boo/chant whatever the hell they want to? Plenty of Canadians here have told you that the chants don't mean anything personal, and are just a way of playing along. Plenty of people have pointed out that the WWE encourages the chants and that they are now a part of wrestling mythology within Canada (particularly Montreal). You're the only one who seems to really give a damn.

I see where you are coming from here, and I can sympathize with your plight. Still, the point was that it is getting old, and that people must move on at some point, forgive and forget. For you, and some of the others on here it isn't personal, and it is a way of playing along and so on. But there is that group out there that still holds this grudge who chant in anger, and who genuinely dislike Shawn Michaels, Vince McMahon, and Triple H for their involvement in the whole ordeal, and those are the people being addressed and referred to. You and some of the folks on here may be more of the exception than the rule on this matter.

As a matter of fact, most of the other posters on this forum have been detached enough from the issue to discuss it with some degree of civility, without trading petty insults against one another's nationalities.

That is what I hate to see, when communications break down and become petty, and insulting. I like to argue my points vigorously and I am hard pressed to give any ground when I get going, but I have been trying to avoid that kind of thing for the most part. I think if Lord Sidious withdrew some of the stuff that was more offensive, his argument would stand much stronger, and you would understand his points clearer. However, he has his own style and it is sometimes hard to bear and interpret. I don't think there is any need for anyone to be insulting each other over their nationality either. We are all here because we are wrestling fans, not because of where we are from, and sometimes it is easy to forget that, and hard to remind ourselves in the middle of a heated discussion.


The main point from my first thread though that I would like to reiterate is this:

What happened in Montreal was Business, it wasn't supposed to be personal, but it was taken that way(funny how that has a way of happening here too huh?). All parties were technically in the wrong for different reasons. And above all, at the end of the day It was never about pride and country, it was about dollars and cents, period.

 

[psykohurricane]

I was there the day it happened 12 years ago. I actually live in Montreal and go to every live WWE event that comes are way and let me tell you something, Montrealers are over it. Sure we do chant ''You Screwed Bret'' but it just for fun. Has a example, look at The breaking Point PPV that was held in Montreal last September, the wasn't that much of a ''You Screwed Bret'' Chant except when HHH brought it up. Shawn was one of the most over guy that night and i can tell you from experience, a lot of us wrestling fan actually love Shawn Micheals. I'm not one of them but i do respect it.



The problem with this situation isn't that we are not over it, it's pretty much that the WWE loves to bring it up over and over again and that's sad because i can tell you that here in Montreal, we've been over it for a long time, so why is it that the WWE cannot leave this situation along and move on like we all did.

 

[xXSlater420Xx]

WOW way to shit on Canada. Im American born and raised as there's no better place to live than in the USA, but even I think that Canada is getting the short end of the stick here.

I mean Lord Sidious just completely shit on every single Canadian and for what? To make a point that became irrelevant? as soon as he singled out every Canadian. It's not Canada's fault that the biggest story in professional wrestling history happened in their country. Simply put the Montreal Screwjob is just one of those things that no matter how much time has passed no one will ever forget it.

Sure it gets old after so long but we cant rewrite history, its something that we will be hearing about for as long as pro wrestling is around. Whats really sad is how many people on here straight bashed the Canadian fans for things they have no control over. Us as Americans hate people telling us how fucked up our beliefs are so where do any of us get the right to shit on a whole country? I'm not a mod and even I know that a WRESTLING FORUM IS NOT THE PLACE TO SHIT ON ANOTHER COUNTRY.

I come on these forums to debate with other people about WRESTLING. Nothing else. Keep the bullshit outta these threads.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

WOW way to shit on Canada. Im American born and raised as there's no better place to live than in the USA, but even I think that Canada is getting the short end of the stick here.

I mean Lord Sidious just completely shit on every single Canadian and for what? To make a point that became irrelevant? as soon as he singled out every Canadian. It's not Canada's fault that the biggest story in professional wrestling history happened in their country. Simply put the Montreal Screwjob is just one of those things that no matter how much time has passed no one will ever forget it.

Sure it gets old after so long but we cant rewrite history, its something that we will be hearing about for as long as pro wrestling is around. What's really sad is how many people on here straight bashed the Canadian fans for things they have no control over. Us as Americans hate people telling us how fucked up our beliefs are so where do any of us get the right to shit on a whole country? I'm not a mod and even I know that a WRESTLING FORUM IS NOT THE PLACE TO SHIT ON ANOTHER COUNTRY.

I come on these forums to debate with other people about WRESTLING. Nothing else. Keep the bullshit outta these threads.

For Christ's sake, will you please get over yourself?

The part in bold is 100% incorrect. Canadian fans DO have control over it. They can stop chanting "You screwed Bret" every single Fucking time the WWE comes to town.

You want to know why Vince keeps it up? Because he knows he gets a reaction out of you every single time. So as long as the fans refuse to give it up and making it an issue, Vince is going to keep essentially making fun of you every time he goes to Canada and throwing it right back in your face.

The Nationalism on the part of the Canadian fans in this very thread pretty much proves my earlier part that Canadians are marks for their country and way to over-protective of the wrong types of people. Again, in America, we don't give a shit and couldn't care less who comes from Canada and who doesn't. We judge you based on your performance and how well you do your job.

Do you think when Bret Hart was in WWE the first time, did you see Americans boo Bret Hart because he was from a place outside the United States? No.

However, when American faces go up against Canadian Heels in Canada in this day and age ... such as if Edge went up against someone like Kofi Kingston, you know who would be getting all the cheers and who would be getting all the boos? Edge would get all the cheers, and Kofi would be booed out of the building. That doesn't happen in the United States. We cheer the Faces and boo the Heels, and we don't give a shit where someone comes from.

So if Canadian fans want to be treated with respect from the American wrestling fans, quit acting like the bunch of Nationalists that you are, quit being marks for your country and taking things too seriously, cheer Faces and boo Heels like the rest of the American fans do regardless of where they are billed from, and act like normal fans do. And quit chanting "You screwed Bret".

Simple, really. But the ball is in your court to do that stuff, not ours.

 

[Baller]

Posted by Lord Sidious
For Christ's sake, will you please get over yourself?

The part in bold is 100% incorrect. Canadian fans DO have control over it. They can stop chanting "You screwed Bret" every single Fucking time the WWE comes to town.

You want to know why Vince keeps it up? Because he knows he gets a reaction out of you every single time. So as long as the fans refuse to give it up and making it an issue, Vince is going to keep essentially making fun of you every time he goes to Canada and throwing it right back in your face.

The Nationalism on the part of the Canadian fans in this very thread pretty much proves my earlier part that Canadians are marks for their country and way to over-protective of the wrong types of people. Again, in America, we don't give a shit and couldn't care less who comes from Canada and who doesn't. We judge you based on your performance and how well you do your job.

Do you think when Bret Hart was in WWE the first time, did you see Americans boo Bret Hart because he was from a place outside the United States? No.

However, when American faces go up against Canadian Heels in Canada in this day and age ... such as if Edge went up against someone like Kofi Kingston, you know who would be getting all the cheers and who would be getting all the boos? Edge would get all the cheers, and Kofi would be booed out of the building. That doesn't happen in the United States. We cheer the Faces and boo the Heels, and we don't give a shit where someone comes from.

So if Canadian fans want to be treated with respect from the American wrestling fans, quit acting like the bunch of Nationalists that you are, quit being marks for your country and taking things too seriously, cheer Faces and boo Heels like the rest of the American fans do regardless of where they are billed from, and act like normal fans do. And quit chanting "You screwed Bret".

Simple, really. But the ball is in your court to do that stuff, not ours.

Sidious, I'm gaining more respect for you by the days. Now the Canadians need to get over them damn selves and move on with their lives. Bret has moved past it, now why can't them. I get tired of every WWE show in Canada bringing up the "You Screwed Bret" every time. There is no need for it, this is a different WWE, and both parties have moved on.

Posted by xXSlater420Xx
WOW way to shit on Canada. Im American born and raised as there's no better place to live than in the USA, but even I think that Canada is getting the short end of the stick here.

I mean Lord Sidious just completely shit on every single Canadian and for what? To make a point that became irrelevant? as soon as he singled out every Canadian. It's not Canada's fault that the biggest story in professional wrestling history happened in their country. Simply put the Montreal Screwjob is just one of those things that no matter how much time has passed no one will ever forget it.

Sure it gets old after so long but we cant rewrite history, its something that we will be hearing about for as long as pro wrestling is around. Whats really sad is how many people on here straight bashed the Canadian fans for things they have no control over. Us as Americans hate people telling us how fucked up our beliefs are so where do any of us get the right to shit on a whole country? I'm not a mod and even I know that a WRESTLING FORUM IS NOT THE PLACE TO SHIT ON ANOTHER COUNTRY.

I come on these forums to debate with other people about WRESTLING. Nothing else. Keep the bullshit outta these threads.

Are you serious? Keep the bullshit out of the threads, are you serious? How the fuck do the fans have no control over chant "You Screwed Bret". Why can't they just cheer fo the faces and boo the heels? It don't matter where there from as Sidious says, we hate Randy Orton, yet love Kofi Kingston. Kofi is from West Africa and Orton is from Missouri. I don't care if you boo Vince McMahon but to bring up Bret every time he walks to the ring, is just ridiculous. It will never stop until the fans get over them selves and forget about it. If the 2 people involved and moved on, why can't the fans?

 

[The Roid Rage]

I am not going to say that to some degree I don't agree with Lord Sidious. Hell, I tried to defend him but my words seem to fall on deaf ears unless they are meant to piss people off, then I get in trouble for "Flaming". However, the whole thing that you and this guy Mr.Baller have wrong, is that it's not your place to tell anyone who to cheer, who to boo, when, where, how, or why. If you don't like what other fans do or don't do, tough shit!!! Grow a pair yourself, and live and let live. This thing has been drug out too far, especially when you are blatantly and directly disrespecting people for their nationality. Remember, I think the whole you screwed Bret chant has been overdone, and needs to rest too. But see, that is my opinion, that's all. I'm not going to try and tell someone to stop cheering for who they want or booing who they want, and neither should anyone else. If you don't like it, go shove your head in a toilet so you can be with like minded organisms. Otherwise, lay the fuck off the Canadians, have some fucking respect, and I'll loan you a quarter and you can go buy some class while your at it.

 

[HitmanAndRKO4Life]

I'll stop whining about this the day Vince McMahon gets off his high horse and admits to screwing the best performer his company had ever seen upto 1997 (one can easily argue that Hulk Hogan is the best performer ever with Stone Cold and The Rock fighting for 2nd, and Bret Hart probably 4th).

Hearing from McMahon and Vince Russo (the head writer at the time), they both claimed to be worried about Bret taking the belt to WCW Monday Nitro the next day and doing to the WWF World Title what Medusa did to the WWF Women's Title: throw it in the garbage live on Nitro.

That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Bret Hart would have NEVER done that. Not in a million years. Bret wanted to beat Shawn, come out on Raw the next night, and forfeit the belt. McMahon wanted Bret to lose to Shawn in Montreal. Russo claimed to not have a better way of writing an ending that would suffice McMahon and Bret. Here's an idea:

Have Bret Hart beat Shawn, which he deserved, and then right after the match, make Bret announce to the crowd that he was leaving and have him forfeit the belt right then and there. The very next night you can start a World Title tournament on Raw and if Shawn Michaels deserved the belt, have him win that tournament. Those tournaments usually are very exciting and lead to better ratings anyway.

So, until McMahon quits the "Bret Screwed Bret" bullshit and admits to being wrong in that situation, the "Montreal Screwjob" will continue to haunt the WWE and more specifically its owner and Shawn Michaels (along w/ HHH).

 

[psykohurricane]

You want to know why Vince keeps it up? Because he knows he gets a reaction out of you every single time. So as long as the fans refuse to give it up and making it an issue, Vince is going to keep essentially making fun of you every time he goes to Canada and throwing it right back in your face.

What have you been watching for the last five years. Vince always brought it up because that's the only way is able to get what he want and that's for us to chant ''You Screw Bret''. At Breaking Point last September in Montreal, nobody was chanting anything during the DX entrance and promo in fact everybody was cheering for them and then suddenly, HHH does mention it and you had a small ''You Screwed Bret'' Chant. That wasn'T us not getting over it, it's call fan participation, HHH wanted a response from us and we gave it to him and it's been like this for at less 5 years now, we react because Vince wants us to react and not because were not over it so before you start kissing Vince's butt, get your fact staight.

The Nationalism on the part of the Canadian fans in this very thread pretty much proves my earlier part that Canadians are marks for their country and way to over-protective of the wrong types of people. Again, in America, we don't give a shit and couldn't care less who comes from Canada and who doesn't. We judge you based on your performance and how well you do your job.

So your telling me that the U.S. wrestling fan don't cares about where a wrestler comes from. Give me a break, in this day of age everytime a foreign wrestler wrestle a american wrestler the crowd start chanting U.S.A. and boo the hell out of the foreigner even if he's a face so don't tell me that Americans are not patriotic and don't supported the own when you clairly do.

However, when American faces go up against Canadian Heels in Canada in this day and age ... such as if Edge went up against someone like Kofi Kingston, you know who would be getting all the cheers and who would be getting all the boos? Edge would get all the cheers, and Kofi would be booed out of the building. That doesn't happen in the United States. We cheer the Faces and boo the Heels, and we don't give a shit where someone comes from.

Against what have you been watching lately, sure we cheer for them because we are proud of them but if they start cutting heel promos then we will be cheering for the face and that's normal. Canada isn't as big of a country as the U.S. The fact is that unlike your country, we don't have alot of wrestler able to make it to the WWE so when one is able to make we are sure to cheer for him. Just to give you a exemple, Us cheering for Edge or Chris JEricho or any other canadian wrestler is like people from St-louis cheering for Randy Orton or People for buffalo cheering for Beth Phoenix. We cheer them because we are proud of what they accomplish just like you do in the u.s.

So if Canadian fans want to be treated with respect from the American wrestling fans, quit acting like the bunch of Nationalists that you are, quit being marks for your country and taking things too seriously, cheer Faces and boo Heels like the rest of the American fans do regardless of where they are billed from, and act like normal fans do. And quit chanting "You screwed Bret".

So let me get this straight, canadian wrestling fan cannot be threated with respect because we do what a American Promoter want u.s to do but the biggest patriotic country in the world can do pretty much what they want. I don't want to disrespect the united states wrestling fan but if that's the case, your the biggest hypocript i ever saw. Americans are as much patriotic as we are and in some states they even are more patriotic then us. You mean to tell me that if Vince McMahon would have done the same thing to Ric Flair or Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin that people from that state or even the whole country would be reacting the same way we are. Sure we have move on as exemple by the way we reacted this year along. The only time we chanted ''You Screwed Bret'' was if it was brought up. But for some reason a couple of you americans don't get that and decided to disrespect us. So be it, if you don't get, it's your choice. Keep kissing Vince's ass from behind your keyboard and stop writing about stuff you know nothing about.

 

[andy zones]

I remember a time when the match between HBK and Hulk Hogan was set up, but it was getting an cold response from the fans. During that time WWE decided to bring that montreal issue again. On one raw airing in states Hulk teases HBK for the montreal controversy and almost every one in that arena started chanting "U Screwed Bret". SO for those who believe that only Canadians are the ones who bring this issue and chant those words, then I got to say that they don't have the complete wrestling knowledge.

Same thing Happened during the match between HULK and HBK, where Michaels was about to deliver the elbow drop from the top, but suddenly fans in the building started chanting " U Screwed Bret", at the very next moment HBK stopped his move , came down the ropes and put Hogan into the sharpshooter. That match was also taking place in US.Another example of americans chanting " U Screw Bret" towards HBK.

Now where did the Hall of Fame ceremony took place in 2006 when bret got inducted into the hall of fame. Chicago. U could hear almost every one at the start of that hall of fame ceremony was chanting " We want Bret", and whenever HBK's pose was shown on the big screen, They started Chanting " U Screw Bret". That was prime example of passionate american fans for u, not canadians.

Now I can clearly understand what the thread starter is trying to achieve by starting this thread. He wants to divide American and Canadian fans on this forum by giving such stupid and controversial topic, where he knows he would get an heated arguments from both sides. Logic behind that is simple as bret is ought to appear, why not poise the mind of american fans here on this forum so that they would talk trash about bret's upcoming return.
But i think those fans who have some common sense of understanding will not buy what thread starter wanted u to.

 

[shafe_41]

Personally I think the Screwjob should just be a blocked discussion to never be allowed again. Everybody involved acted like a child in a sense, and it could have been handled better by everybody. Vince did what he felt he had to do due to Alundra Blayze dropping the Women's Title in the trash on Nitro, HBK had to do what was best for his career at the time, and Bret has admitted (though I forget where... I believe his HoF speech) that he took the business a little too seriously at times. There is seriously nothing left to say about it... for now.

When Bret Hart returns to the WWE in Jan, you know the topic will be brought up and maybe Vince and HBK will reveal some things that they've kept secret for all these years. Now I have no idea what these secrets would be, but who cares? It's Bret Hart. Coming back to the WWE. In 2 weeks. This will be one of (if not the) biggest episodes of Raw in history. I would watch that for 2 hrs. straight with my eyes glued to the TV even if Bret, Vince, and HBK just stood in the ring for 2 hrs. with mics. Just to see the things that could be said. Personally, I would love to see HBK and Bret shake hands in the middle of the ring and let bygones be bygones. These are men in their 40s still holding a grudge (mainly Bret) over something that happened over 12 years ago. Bret, Vince, Shawn, the fans, everybody needs to get over it. Screwjob discussion is taking a dead horse, and then beating it hard enough, long enough, and with enough force that the horse eventually turns into crude oil. It really just needs to end.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

What have you been watching for the last five years. Vince always brought it up because that's the only way is able to get what he want and that's for us to chant ''You Screw Bret''. At Breaking Point last September in Montreal, nobody was chanting anything during the DX entrance and promo in fact everybody was cheering for them and then suddenly, HHH does mention it and you had a small ''You Screwed Bret'' Chant. That wasn'T us not getting over it, it's call fan participation, HHH wanted a response from us and we gave it to him and it's been like this for at less 5 years now, we react because Vince wants us to react and not because were not over it so before you start kissing Vince's butt, get your fact staight.

What an idiot.

If you actually spent any length of time reading my posts, you would know and realize that I am actually one of the biggest Vince opponents on this board. I despise the direction he has taken the current product and let him have it on a daily basis.

You are the one sir, that needs to "get your facts straight".

So you're telling me that the U.S. wrestling fan don't cares about where a wrestler comes from. Give me a break, in this day of age every time a foreign wrestler wrestle a american wrestler the crowd start chanting U.S.A. and boo the hell out of the foreigner even if he's a face so don't tell me that Americans are not patriotic and don't supported the own when you clearly do.

Nope. You are comparing two different arguments here and these comments are 100% invalid. I'll explain.

What happens today in Canada compared to the USA are two different approaches to Foreign wrestlers.

In the United States, if we have an American Face (Shawn Michaels) against a Foreign Heel (Edge), the American Face will be cheered.

However in the United States, if we have a Foreign Face (Christian) against an American Heel (Randy Orton), the Foreign Face (Christian) is still cheered, regardless.

Now, here is what happens in Canada.

In Canada, if a Canadian Face (Christian) goes up against a Foreign Heel (Randy Orton), then of course the Canadian Face gets cheered.

But here is the part you need to pay attention to.

In Canada, if a Canadian HEEL (Edge or Chris Jericho) goes up against a Foreign Face (John Cena, Kofi Kingston, Batista, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, MVP, Evan Bourne, etc), Edge or Chris Jericho will be the one who is overwhelmingly cheered by the Canadian audience.

And this is the behavior that I ridicule. Because it makes you look like a bunch of Nationalists over something as ridiculous as Pro Wrestling .... as if you actually think it's a real sport you are competing with the U.S. over. What is wrong with the Canadian fans?

Let me take you back in time. When Bret Hart was competing in the United States as a Babyface in the World Wrestling Federation, did you see the United States boo him if he took on someone like Ric Flair or Shawn Michaels, just because Bret Hart was Canadian and Ric Flair or Shawn Michaels were American? No, that didn't happen.

So yes, not all of them, but I dare say the majority of Canadian Wrestling fans have a problem in acting like a bunch of Nationalists when it comes to scripted Entertainment. You make it look like you are competing in something legitimate like the Olympics, and you hail your wrestlers as National Heroes.

Then, when you get called out on it, you pull this crap like you are all offended. Grow up, be a Man, and admit that the fans in the Great White North simply have a problem.

I don't have a problem with criticizing my fellow American wrestling fans for things. Why do you have to act so defensive over Canadian wrestling fans? Call it and tell it like it is and remove country from the equation.

Against what have you been watching lately, sure we cheer for them because we are proud of them

Why are you proud of them? Aren't they just working a job, like anyone else? We don't have this sense of pride that you refer to in wrestlers from our country. We may respect their work ethic, but we do not have pride in them, in the sense that they are representing our country in something.

but if they start cutting heel promos then we will be cheering for the face and that's normal.

They shouldn't have to cut Heel promos in order for you to cheer them. All wrestlers are pre-defined as either Faces or Heels. If they are a Face, you cheer them. If they are a Heel, then you boo them. Nationalities should not even enter the equation as far as switching your allegiance between a Face and a Heel.

Otherwise, again, it makes you look like marks for your country. Is that really how you want to be viewed as, because you can't distinguish between an actual sport and a scripted form of entertainment ... and think that Canadian Heels should be cheered over any Face, even an American?

Canada isn't as big of a country as the U.S. The fact is that unlike your country, we don't have alot of wrestler able to make it to the WWE so when one is able to make we are sure to cheer for him.

Again, this points to you being the group of Nationalists that you are. Who the Fuck cares? Why should you even care? We don't care where wrestlers come from. You shouldn't either. This is the mentality that Canadian wrestling fans need to get over. And it's the same conversation I have with numerous Canadian fans I have interacted with while discussing this topic.\

"We are a small country and we cheer them on because they actually made it to the WWE."

Anyone can make it to the WWE if they are committed enough. All one has to do is relocate and train. That is no different than anyone who relocates from Michigan to Florida to train in FCW, or in any other state in the United States. You need to stop letting country be a factor in who you cheer for.

Wrestlers from your country are not something to be proud of. They are doing a job, just like anyone else. You can respect them, but taking this personal vested interest in being "proud" of them because you equate this to them "doing something for Canada" is simply an absurd mentality to take.

If I were to go up and ask Edge, Christian or if I would have asked Test or Benoit when they were still alive ... if they went to the WWE because they wanted to do something to represent Canada and the Canadian people, they would laugh at me. They went to the WWE because they have a passion for wrestling, wanted to do it for a living, and perhaps become rich and famous. It has nothing to do with them doing something for the Canadian people, and it's ridiculous you would have such a vested interest in them in that context.

Just to give you a exemple, Us cheering for Edge or Chris JEricho or any other canadian wrestler is like people from St-louis cheering for Randy Orton or People for buffalo cheering for Beth Phoenix. We cheer them because we are proud of what they accomplish just like you do in the u.s.

No we don't cheer just like you do. This is a dying old school mentality that is on its deathbed here in the United States and Ric Flair is about the last person who is really affected by getting this "Home State" welcome in the United States.

There are a few people additional people who may cheer in the audience because of this, but whenever this is done in Canada, the entire arena is SOLIDLY behind the Canadian Heel over the American face.

You have smarky fans in the United States who like to cheer Heels over Faces in markets like New York, Washington DC, Chicago, etc. But that is completely irrelevant to clearing someone because of their hometown.

Like I said, it exists in the U.S., but only to a very small degree. And I am willing to wager that other American fans would agree with that as a truthful, fair assessment.

So let me get this straight, canadian wrestling fan cannot be treated with respect because we do what a American Promoter want u.s to do but the biggest patriotic country in the world can do pretty much what they want?

You can do whatever you want to do. That's your right as a fan. Just don't expect to escape ridicule because of your actions. If you want to be Special because you want to act like a bunch of Nationalists over a scripted form of entertainment, then you have to deal with the consequences.

You are free to come down on the behavior of American fans for behaviors you don't deem to be "normal", as well.

But cheering on wrestlers as if you are cheering on National Athletes in the Olympics just because they are from Canada (regardless of Heel status) is asinine. You aren't competing with us over anything, we don't view us as being in competition with you over anything, it isn't legitimate competition at all, and there is not a single reason why you should feel "proud" as a country, just because someone who happens to be from Canada, happens to come under contract with WWE. They sure as Hell aren't representing your country in anything other than being there to make a living, just like everyone else.

I don't want to disrespect the united states wrestling fan

You can disrespect the United States all you want, and we won't take offense to it. You can go on a tirade against the United States over political issues, and I dare say a lot of us might probably agree with you. We don't take things like that personally anymore, and don't take it to heart. Why do you get so uptight just because someone points out odd behavior in how Canadian wrestling fans determine how they cheer for their wrestlers?

You have no reason to have any vested interest in this whatsoever, in the context of country.

but if that's the case, your the biggest hypocript i ever saw. Americans are as much patriotic as we are and in some states they even are more patriotic then us.

As a country and as a whole, we simply don't think showing "Blind Patriotism" to our country is as big a deal anymore as it once was. We do know that our leaders in our Government have done a lot of wrong in the past, and no, we don't blindly show that type of Blind Obedience to the Leaders in our Government anymore.

We have people that burn flags in the United States and it is perfectly legal under our First Amendment.

A lot of our citizens our not proud of our country given the direction George Bush took the country in, and have come to grips with their feelings on the matter. That was why we now have a Democrat Senate, Democrat House, and Democrat White House ... and have kicked the Republicans to the curb for the time being. People are beginning to think and not show this blind obedience to what they are told.

Now, sure we do have our share of Red States (Republican/Conservative) and our share of Blue States (Democrat/Liberal) and have traditionally been a Conservative country. But times are changing and we are becoming more Liberal as a whole, as a country.

But are we proud of things our country did (country's leaders)? No, not necessarily, although our Red States tend to demonstrate more of the blind patriotism that I refer to.

But there is also a thing such as pride in one's country and overall a good feeling, compared to being a Nationalist. And the behavior I see demonstrated from Canadian Wrestling fans, that I believe are indicative of the entire populace of Canadians is that you are Nationalists. And when I see things like "We're a small country", "We need to protect our stars", etc. that tells me that you have an inferiority complex with how you compare yourselves to other countries ... because you want to be respected.

I can understand wanting to be respected. But the key to earning respect is to just act yourselves, without making this concentrated effort in how you view yourselves in regards to other countries like the United States. We don't like this competitive thing with Canada. We'd rather just get along, and move on with our daily lives. Just be yourselves and quit acting like you have this need to try to compare yourselves to everybody else, and you will be cordially respected back. I don't think that's too much to ask.

You mean to tell me that if Vince McMahon would have done the same thing to Ric Flair or Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin that people from that state or even the whole country would be reacting the same way we are. Sure we have move on as exemple by the way we reacted this year along. The only time we chanted ''You Screwed Bret'' was if it was brought up. But for some reason a couple of you americans don't get that and decided to disrespect us. So be it, if you don't get, it's your choice. Keep kissing Vince's ass from behind your keyboard and stop writing about stuff you know nothing about.

Again, if you think I am a Vince McMahon ass-kisser, you obviously have not been around this site long enough. But I've said my peace on the matter.

The answer to when Canadian fans and when they will stop whining about the Montreal Screwjob is when they decide to stop acting like Nationalists, and detach themselves from viewing pro wrestlers as being representatives of the populace of their country. Because at that point, then they will start acting the same way Americans view their Pro Wrestlers and will simply cheer Faces and boo Heels as a whole, and not make country an issue.

When country isn't an issue and when the Canadians don't act like Nationalists in having this obsessive nature with how they view themselves compared to other world superpowers, then things like the Montreal Screwjob won't be taken "personally" by the fans. So ultimately, it is up to Canadians to change their own behavior. Your behavior in how you perceive this issue, is the problem. Not ours.

What's the solution? Be man enough to admit it, quit taking things involving your country personally and de-program yourself from being "blind Patriots to your country", and stop viewing wrestlers as National Heroes, and quit chanting "You screwed Bret" every time WWE comes to town.

It isn't cool. It isn't funny. And only encourages Vince to keep his antics up, and make fun of you in the process. Vince is essentially a troll and is trolling for attention, and you keep giving it to him because he knows he gets a reaction out of you every time. If you really want to put Vince in his place, sit there in dead silence or walk out of the arena, the next time he brings Raw to town and starts that stuff. I'm serious. If you want to put him in his place, then organize yourselves and do just that if you really want to put Vince in his place.

 

[psykohurricane]

Again, if you think I am a Vince McMahon ass-kisser, you obviously have not been around this site long enough. But I've said my peace on the matter.

The answer to when Canadian fans and when they will stop whining about the Montreal Screwjob is when they decide to stop acting like Nationalists, and detach themselves from viewing pro wrestlers as being representatives of the populace of their country. Because at that point, then they will start acting the same way Americans view their Pro Wrestlers and will simply cheer Faces and boo Heels as a whole, and not make country an issue.

When country isn't an issue and when the Canadians don't act like Nationalists in having this obsessive nature with how they view themselves compared to other world superpowers, then things like the Montreal Screwjob won't be taken "personally" by the fans. So ultimately, it is up to Canadians to change their own behavior. Your behavior in how you perceive this issue, is the problem. Not ours.

What's the solution? Be man enough to admit it, quit taking things involving your country personally and de-program yourself from being "blind Patriots to your country", and stop viewing wrestlers as National Heroes, and quit chanting "You screwed Bret" every time WWE comes to town.

It isn't cool. It isn't funny. And only encourages Vince to keep his antics up, and make fun of you in the process. Vince is essentially a troll and is trolling for attention, and you keep giving it to him because he knows he gets a reaction out of you every time. If you really want to put Vince in his place, sit there in dead silence or walk out of the arena, the next time he brings Raw to town and starts that stuff. I'm serious. If you want to put him in his place, then organize yourselves and do just that if you really want to put Vince in his place.

After i read you reply, i got to say that you brought a lot of good points and the solution to the problem that you gave is pretty good but then again we've already done that. The fact of the matter is were not talking about guys like Edge, Chris Jericho (who is hated in Canada by the way) or any other canadian wrestler. We are talking about Bret ''The Hitman'' Hart who is are version of Ric Flair. Ric Flair right now heel or Face will get cheer no matter what anywhere in the u.s. Flair is regarded as one of the greatest wrestler by every wrestling fan in america. Same goes for Bret Hart in Canada, it's not nationalism, is just respect for one of the greatest wrestler to come out of Canada that's all. Like i said before, we are not whining anymore about the fact the Montreal Screwjob. The best exemple i can give you about this is Breaking Point, watch and listen to the fan reaction during DX's entrance and also during the match itself. The only time you will hear the ''You Screwed Bret'' Chant was during the HHH's promo and that was because it was initiated by HHH himself. We were just having fun we DX. Sure we are a proud bunch of peoples and why not, it doesn't make us bad peoples. The WWE is trying to market a image of us that isn't that true anymore. Sure when the WWE goes to place like Calgary or Toronto that the patriotism for Canadian wrestler will be bigger because this town are were most of the big name wrestlers comes from. Look at every Canadian wrestlers that ever made it to the WWE or TNA. Most of them came from Ontario or Alberta so your sure that when you go to these provinces, you might get a bigger response but then again from what i hear by attending Breaking Point and watching both the Raw and Smackdown that came after the PPV, it seem like the tendancy to cheer for the Canadian heel as stop and were back to cheering like the wwe want us to do. Sure if a guy comes from the town were the show is we are going to cheer just like you do in the U.S. But the time of us cheering for every canadian wrestlers is over and now we are more americanized and cheer for who we are supposed to cheer except for some reason John Cena.

To go back to the topic, We cheer for Bret Hart because for us, he's our Ric Flair. That's all. When we chant '' You Screw Bret'' which doesn't happen as much has it used to, is only for fun except maybe in Calgary, i can talk for them because i don't live or know anybody that live there, so if you think that we have a nationalist attitude so be it but next time maybe watch listen to the reaction the american heel wrestlers get when they are in their hometown. In Fact the best exemple i can give you is Batista at Survivor series. You can tell maybe the fans in washington D.C. weren't cheering for Batista even through he was supposed to be the heel.

So if you see us as nationalist then the WWE did is job right because that's exactly what they want you guys to thing of us when in fact, it could be further from the truth, at less as far as pro wrestling is concerned.

 

[HITMANFAN]

I get tired of the Canadians who act like they have to bear some cross or something ever since the Montreal Screwjob. Like everything in life was OK until that point, but after the Screwjob...life just wasn't the same. Uhhhh-Okay, I guess. Lord Sidious makes a good point about Bret being held up as some national hero and people looking at it like a national hero was defeated on their own soil or something.

But both of you seem to be forgetting one vital point of the debate, or you are deliberately ignoring it.

Yes Pro Wrestling if faked (in the sense that endings are pre-determined), yes the performers are working from scripts and pre-arranged stories and that, as a rule, most of the things that occur are all part of some angle or other...but there in itself is the key as to why some people will NEVER let it go.

What happens on a show/PPV is ALWAYS part of some angle or other, then the MSJ came a long.

What happened to Bret Hart will always be remembered because it was so far outside of the ordinary happenings of the usual angle/story driven show. There is wanting it to happen one way and working it out, then there is the duplicitous back stabbing way you actually make it happen on the screen - and your justification...? I am the boss and I will do it when I want, how I want and where I want...so F.U..!!

In the documentary made about the MSJ, Vince is quite clearly heard agreeing to Bret's idea about NOT dropping the belt in Montreal, about HBK getting the victory by DQ after the Hart family invade the ring. Proof that that was how Bret thought it was going to end was that Anvil, Bulldog and Owen were all there at ringside just waiting for the cue to come in.

What happened was that a personal grudge based a lack of trust on Vince's part made him take the course of showing that level of betrayal in a way that we as viewers don't usually get to watch...it all happened on camera.

It did not matter that Bret is not really a national hero, it did not matter that Bret might (in real life) be a total butt-hole - though I have been lucky enough to meet him and he didn't seem that way to me, it did not matter that Pro Wrestling is not really a sport in the accepted sense, it did not matter that Pro Wrestling is all pre-determined and it didn't really matter that most real fans knew that Bret was on his way to WCW anyway...

What did matter was that a Canadian audience saw a much favoured Canadian personality getting visibly stabbed in the back on international television. They witnessed something a HUGE bit out of the ordinary happening in front of their own eyes to one of their own.

AND YOU EXPECTED THAT WOULD/SHOULD NOT CUT DEEP?

Dream on.

Lord Sidious...As for America having grown beyond having strange ideas about national heroes? A sentiment delivered I might add, with an enormous wedge of obnoxiously arrogant pomposity...Give me a break! Or were you actually being serious? I do sincerely hope not because that was THE funniest thing I have read in a very long time. From a country that thrives on shallow, vacuous, inane, insignificant 'celebrity' non-entities and the deification of such...that was almost hilarious.

 

[Undar8d]

I believe it's just a low way of getting a reaction in Canada and not letting go what has happened twelve years ago.

They aren't many Canadian wrestlers in the WWE, and Bret Hart back then was viewed as a legend and hero for some because he was this Canadian wrestler with the WWF Title and just awesome. Then, he got screwed and Canadians started the chant, but the chant back then and the chant now is way different.

The chant back then was full of hate and despise and people were mad over the situation. Being a Canadian myself, I remember watching that night thinking "Whoa, what happened" finding later on he was screwed. But now, Vince goes to Canada for RAW and at least once you're going to hear him mention it, with fan participation following on. Is it because we can't get over this? No. It's because Vince keeps mentioning it in a low, suppose-to-be funny way which still angers some people and it should. But the majority of Canadians just do it as a sort of tradition and it even cracks a smile on Vince's face or anyone who mentions it because he's satisfied that we continue with the chant.

Should we stop chanting as stated above and get over it? No, Vince should stop implementing it. They did it on the Undertaker Vs. CM Punk match at Breaking point I believe and the crowd electrified after it happened. I understand it's for the fan reactions and I'm okay that he does it, but most Canadians would view that as distasteful, including myself.

In summary, Canadians aren't whining about the situation, but only continue to bring it up when Vince does something stupid to get us to "Boo" back when he comes to Canada. Some of Lord Sidious's points are true in some twisted way, but generalizing Canadians and Americans as a whole can only go to some extent and is not the point of this thread. It doesn't show stupidity that we fire back, it shows the strength of Canadian pride and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Tastycles]

I think some of the shit people have been spouting in this thread is borderline racist and certainly xenophobic. There are a few things that I shall address, but I will mostly be considering posts made intelligently and not those of the nature CNANDA IS ******ED or CANADA TILL I DIE.

Sidious said something interesting in that it is wrong to consider Bret Hart a national hero. While it is true that he hasn't won anything on merit of genuine competition, it is not fair to say that he cannot be a national hero. He is one of the greatest in his field, which is an international field, of all time. If actors can be national heroes, then so can wrestlers. It's not the same as a sporting hero, but it is still somebody that has represented Canada nobly on a public platform, which qualifies in my eyes.

Onto the matter at hand, I do think that the fanbase need to forget about this. If Bret Hart can put it behind him, then perhaps his fans should too. In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter, but I'm not really sure how many people take the whole thing seriously these days. I hope not many.

More than anybody else, the WWE needs to forget about it. While historic, there have been so many bullshit cop out ends of matches that rip the whole thing off since that it just makes the whole thing a massive blot on wrestling booking. The ending to the match earlier in the year wasn't clever, or exploitative, it was a lazy way to get out of the match stipulation imposed on it.

 

[The Roid Rage]

But both of you seem to be forgetting one vital point of the debate, or you are deliberately ignoring it.

I read the rest of the post after this, but the above quoted opens up to the rest of it so I will answer from there until I get bored and decide to systematically go through and dismantle everything you said, if I get the urge that is.

First of all I think you should go back re-read my posts to get a better insight as to what I actually said. This becomes irritating when you have to keep going back to clarify everything you said in great detail so someone doesn't confuse what you are actually saying. However, if you believe in the integrity and accuracy of your words, you still go back and do it.

The thing with what you brought up is that it's rudimentary material. It's kind of an obvious thing that you don't really need to mention because it's just common knowledge. Therefore it really has no bearing on the conversation because it's automatically apart of all the considerations that go into making ones point, if you get what I mean. For instance:

What happened to Bret Hart will always be remembered because it was so far outside of the ordinary happenings of the usual angle/story driven show.

Well, no one was debating that and it's an obvious part of the situation being discussed. What IS being debated is when and if the fans should stop with the "You Screwed Bret" chants since it has been oooooh OVER A DECADE since that happened. I don't see why it's so unreasonable to suggest that maybe people get over it, and let the past be the past.

There is wanting it to happen one way and working it out, then there is the duplicitous back stabbing way you actually make it happen on the screen - and your justification...? I am the boss and I will do it when I want, how I want and where I want...so F.U..!!

Once again, not my cup of tea. I never said anything about that, and I don't know that anyone else was either. I never justified anything. I may have shown both sides of the coin, but that has nothing to do with my personal stance. And, as I made light of originally in this post, what you are saying is irrelevant to the conversation.

What happened was that a personal grudge based.......

(audible snoring)

Yeah, yeah, yeah everyone knows what happened and knows the skewed opinions of the masses, so what? You've spent this whole time giving us some retelling of the famed Montreal Screw Job, at this point I think we're all clear on it. This has nothing to do with anything I said, or anything really being discussed.

It did not matter that Bret is not really a national hero, it did not matter that Bret might (in real life) be a total butt-hole - though I have been lucky enough to meet him and he didn't seem that way to me,

Oh yeah, and that nothing to do with your stance on this, NOTHING. Ok, "HITMANFAN" Gotcha. Oh and look there is that first line, what were you saying??? Oh yeah, that Bret isn't really a national hero. Good way to argue for your opponent.


I won't go into anything you said to Lord Sidious and his disdain for Canadians as it seems because I don't agree with that either, but the rest of the stuff you said, based on my quotes was all wrong. There were a few other choice quotes I wanted to address as well, so I am done with you for now. Moving on.

Should we stop chanting as stated above and get over it? No, Vince should stop implementing it.

That's fair. I can agree with to a degree. Only on the fact that Vince McMahon should stop implementing it. I only disagree partially because I think it's a two way street. Both the fans, and McMahon should give it a rest.

I think some of the shit people have been spouting in this thread is borderline racist and certainly xenophobic.

I agree, and I certainly hope you are not referring to anything I may have said. Considering the name of the topics and it's direct mention of Canadians however, what did you expect? Someone was going to go there. The important part is that is wasn't you.

Onto the matter at hand, I do think that the fanbase need to forget about this. If Bret Hart can put it behind him, then perhaps his fans should too.

My sentiments exactly.

Personally I think the Screwjob should just be a blocked discussion to never be allowed again. Everybody involved acted like a child in a sense, and it could have been handled better by everybody.

Yeah, ok Mr. Rogers. Of course there should never be heated debate on sensitive subjects. Everybody just mishandles everything, and acts like children, sure deal. Let's just never talk about one of the biggest moments in wrestling history ever again, because someone has to be wrong and someone has to be right, and God forbid someone have to be wrong, and maybe feel stupid for making a stupid argument. That makes sense. Use this response as an example all you want, what you are implying overly dramatic and one sided, case and point.

Well, that was fun kiddies!!! I hope you enjoyed your daily dose of Rage. See you next time, and have a nice day.