What The Hell?

[Nate DaMac]

Did you say Miz=Ziggler? No way. When Miz's music hits, the crowd reacts. Ziggler doesn't get any sort of reaction until Vickie talks.

 

[JGlass]

Did you say Miz=Ziggler? No way. When Miz's music hits, the crowd reacts. Ziggler doesn't get any sort of reaction until Vickie talks.

[YOUTUBE]hXJ21d4cu8I[/YOUTUBE]

For my money, Ziggler and Miz tied at the very least.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Isn't Ziggler the guy who lost clean on a PPV for the US Title to Zack f'in Ryder?

The main event push that Ziggler got with Punk had little to nothing to do with Ziggler. All of his credibility towards beating Punk for the title laid in the control of Lauranitis. If Lauranitis took on Ziggler as some type of mentee, Ziggler could be more of a credible threat. But Lauranitis' focus was on Punk thus not adding to Ziggler's credibility as a champion. Miz is now in a similar boat, he is not much of a believable threat without Riley stealing wins for him. Vickie gives Ziggler heat but she doesn't give him wins.

It's unfortunate for a guy like Ziggler but he lacks in some enormous areas to go really far in WWE:

- no legacy
- terrible voice
- decent build but not big
- little charisma
- squinty eyes

Maybe if he showed a propensity to cheat he could get over further as a heel. If I were him I would work on deepening my voice and practice staring at my eyes in the mirror and try to get a look down that gets an audience's attention.

 

[JGlass]

Isn't Ziggler the guy who lost clean on a PPV for the US Title to Zack f'in Ryder?

The main event push that Ziggler got with Punk had little to nothing to do with Ziggler. All of his credibility towards beating Punk for the title laid in the control of Lauranitis. If Lauranitis took on Ziggler as some type of mentee, Ziggler could be more of a credible threat. But Lauranitis' focus was on Punk thus not adding to Ziggler's credibility as a champion. Miz is now in a similar boat, he is not much of a believable threat without Riley stealing wins for him. Vickie gives Ziggler heat but she doesn't give him wins.

It's unfortunate for a guy like Ziggler but he lacks in some enormous areas to go really far in WWE:

- no legacy
- terrible voice
- decent build but not big
- little charisma
- squinty eyes

Maybe if he showed a propensity to cheat he could get over further as a heel. If I were him I would work on deepening my voice and practice staring at my eyes in the mirror and try to get a look down that gets an audience's attention.

Look, I agree with almost all of this, but this argument is not about Dolph Ziggler, it's about how the audience views Dolph Ziggler right now, and as far as I can tell, they view him as a legitimate talent. Whether that lasts or not is entirely up for debate (and I would be on the "no" side of that argument), but here and now, Dolph Ziggler is over.

 

[Harthan]

They're not booking Ziggler like they intend to get him massively over. He's been second fiddle to Vickie, even third if you include Johnny Ace, for the entirety of his psuedo-main event run on Raw. If you put him on the kind of run Miz went on last year, he'd get there. I don't think it's fair to say that Ziggler isn't over, he's just not more over than most other upper midcarders and he tends to get overpowered by Vickie.

I prefer his ring work to most of the other upper midcard heels these days, though, so I'm all for pushing him.

 

[¡Roján!]

Say what you want about Santino's ability to draw but, he was the only reason I'd care to watch wrestling in 2009.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Well I will say what I want about him. So thanks.

 

[Alastor]

Ziggler is booked like a henchmen for the managerial heels. Mercenary heel. Won't be viewed as legitimate threat to top level faces without outside interference till he goes out on his own. But he look golden in the ring almost every time and help put over faces with his bumps.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

I don't believe that Ziggler is over. Bryan on the other hand is much more close to what I what consider over.

Obviously though, we're all forgetting something pretty important:

[YOUTUBE]Ses8rE7mr6A&list=FLsTBGrKJjXapoYWAH2Shknw&index=9&feature=plpp_video[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Slyfox696]

Okay... but I fail to see how Ziggler falls short in any of those things when compared to guys like Miz or Christian.

Because the fans actually care about those two guys?

Whether or not Ziggler is in the top 10 is up to debate.

Uhh, not really.

Ziggler gets plenty of heat with or without Vickie, thinking he needs Vickie to get heat is a total myth.

Really? Like when?

Furthermore, Miz, Christian, Mysterio, Mark Henry, Big Show, and Cody Rhodes aren't consistently in the main event.

Which only goes to show you how much the WWE longs for a quality young heel...the fact Ziggler still hasn't been booked to be on the level says a lot about how over he is.

Disagreed. They were heat building matches, and they worked.

Disagree completely. They were matches to fill a card and to use time. Ziggler's Rumble match was no different than Kennedy's Rumble match against Batista a few years ago. I think you can see for yourself how well it worked out for Kennedy.

It comes down to this. In the couple of years Ziggler's been around, he's never once been asked to be the main drawing match on a card. This puts him behind everyone on my list.

The only heels that aren't going to be an afterthought at WrestleMania are Jericho, and depending how they're booked, Cena, Kane, Big Show, and Triple H.

Heels have nothing to do with this. It's Ziggler's job to get over, and right now, to get over as a heel. Wrestlemania doesn't book faces, Wrestlemania books guys who are going to draw money. It doesn't matter if they are a good guy or bad guy, as long as they are over enough with the crowd to draw money.

You said being over has to do with whether or not people see them as a legitimate star, right? It's hard to see someone was a legitimate star when you can't see them. Because they're not on TV.

But Christian HAS been on TV since Ziggler has been on TV. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Christian was WORLD CHAMPION since Ziggler has been on TV. In fact, Christian has been World Champion TWICE since Ziggler has been on TV.

Are you really arguing who is more over between Christian and Ziggler?

How about the fact that he consistently gets crickets from the crowd?

Except that A) he doesn't, and B) I've already told you to not confuse reaction with overness.

When Mark Henry comes out, people pay attention. When Mark Henry destroys someone, people take notice. Ziggler is bland. He has poor mic skills, he's bland in the ring, and Vickie draws most of the heat for him.

Again, do we need to do a World title comparison?

Miz's name on the marquee is probably equal to Ziggler at this point. Kane is a nostalgia act at best.

Well, so is the Undertaker, but he's still over with the crowd and still draws.

And like Nate said, Ziggler is not on Miz's level, even after the rough few months Miz has had.

No, you clearly decided to change the definition of "over" again. Just because they're popular with the fans of their home country doesn't mean that people buy them as a legitimate threat.

But they do in their home countries. I already said the characters don't resonate in America, go back and check for yourself. But those characters DO resonate in other countries, and they are over in those other countries. Khali, by most reports, is single-handedly responsible for the WWE's current popularity in India. Those guys are over with their demographics.

Ziggler isn't over with ANY demographics. Again, you need to go back and read what I said again, I'm afraid you didn't fully understand it.

Agreed. The biggest names are Cena, Rock, Punk, Triple H, and Undertaker. Everyone after that is pretty much on a level playing field, if not simply because those top stars are overwhelmingly huge.

You're telling me Ziggler is on the same level as Orton, Sheamus, Big Show, etc.?

I think you are SERIOUSLY overestimating how over Dolph Ziggler really is.

23: Before I started watching, but wasn't this a Hail Mary attempt to get Bobby Lashley relevant?

But that wasn't the focus of the match, the focus of the match was McMahon vs. Trump. THEY were the ones who were promoted for that match.

24: Big Show and Mayweather. Hell, they took up most of the poster, leaving a super over Batista off the poster altogether.

And Big Show vs. Mayweather was a very strong draw to the card, generating massive buzz around the sports world. You're proving my point.

26: Pretty clean, but an argument could be made for Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase

No it couldn't. Wrestlemania 26 was about Cena vs. Batista, Bret Hart's return to the ring against the man who screwed him in '97 and HBK vs. Undertaker part 2. Wrestlemania was not promoted on the backs of Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase, and you're just being silly if you think it was.

27: Del Rio

Wrestlemania 27 was not promoted on the back of Del Rio. Wrestlemania was about Rock vs. Cena, Jersey Shore and Undertaker vs. Triple H. Del Rio didn't even make the poster.

Just about every year they push someone that is not a selling point to the card, or at the very least hinders someone that would be an even bigger selling point.

No they don't. Wrestlemania is promoted on the backs of the people who are going to draw the most interest in the card. Do you really think this year's Wrestlemania is going to be focused on Daniel Bryan? Of course not, it'll be focused on Rock vs. Cena, Triple H vs. Undertaker, Punk vs. Jericho and the popularity of Sheamus. That is what will sell this year's show. Not Daniel Bryan and certainly not Dolph Ziggler.

No, I'm the one giving you a realistic look into the mind of a WWE fan.

No, you're giving me an unrealistic load of garbage. I say that, not in hostility, but as simple fact.

You're confusing major threat with over.

No I know EXACTLY what being over is.

However, I can't imagine anyone arguing against Santino Marella being over.

I already have.

The dude draws, people love him, they buy his merchandise, and the crowd goes wild when he comes out.

I would love to see your source to suggest Santino draws. Santino is popular. But if a wrestling show was coming to town, and the only name advertised for the card was Santino, it would be a very poor drawing card indeed.

Jerry Lawler is over, and he rarely ever wrestles.

Jerry Lawler has 40 years in the business, and was a star during his wrestling days. Lawler is over, but not in the same way Dolph Ziggler needs to be over.

By that standard, Dolph Ziggler is over. People count on him for a good match and in-ring entertainment, and they know he's going to put on a show worth watching.

We're obviously not watching the same show. You should try watching the one the WWE puts on every Monday night, that's the one I watch.

But he look golden in the ring almost every time and help put over faces with his bumps.

No he doesn't. Ziggler is mediocre in the ring, and only looks good when he has someone really good to cover for him.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Ziggler is booked like a henchmen for the managerial heels. Mercenary heel. Won't be viewed as legitimate threat to top level faces without outside interference till he goes out on his own. But he look golden in the ring almost every time and help put over faces with his bumps.

Punk as a champion opens the door for someone like Ziggler to get a solid and believable championship win but WWE is still about big men and charismatic creative personalities (especially in their heels), not what you view as "golden" in the ring.

 

[Nate DaMac]

No he doesn't. Ziggler is mediocre in the ring, and only looks good when he has someone really good to cover for him.

I'm so glad to see that someone else sees this. The dude sells big moves fairly well, I'll give him that, but he seems to be one of those guys bred from the "If I do a whole bunch of different moves, everyone will think I'm a good wrestler" cloth.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I'm so glad to see that someone else sees this. The dude sells big moves fairly well, I'll give him that, but he seems to be one of those guys bred from the "If I do a whole bunch of different moves, everyone will think I'm a good wrestler" cloth.

He falls into that category, no question. Could be worse, though. He could believe moving quickly around the ring should satisfy fans (Kofi Kingston).

 

[Nate DaMac]

He falls into that category, no question. Could be worse, though. He could believe moving quickly around the ring should satisfy fans (Kofi Kingston).

Yeah Kofi is pretty much the same way. Pretty much why I think he should be relegated to tag team wrestling. He's great as the hot tag recipient.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Ziggler is good in the ring, I will say that, he's also not bad on the stick but my issue with Ziggler is the same issue I have with a lot of the roster.

That issue is they have bland personalities. Too many people are the same in the WWE and Ziggler follows that pattern just like Drew McIntyre. Their character is generic cocky, arrogant heel. Outside of Zigglers in ring work nothing separates him from the pack. Sorry, but in WWE you need a lot more than in ring work to become a big star.

 

[Coco]

Ziggler does a whole bunch of different moves? Is this after I succumb to boredom and change the channel?

 

[Nate DaMac]

Ziggler does a whole bunch of different moves? Is this after I succumb to boredom and change the channel?

How many finishers has he had now? The Zig Zag which by the way, is one of the stupidest fucking moves ever, That Fameasser thing, Sleeper Hold, pretty sure he used to do that Paydirt thing Shelton Benjamin used to do.

I'm just saying that he seems to think that adding a bunch of moves to his arsenal is his main priority.

 

[.]

One can't really compare bryan and Ziggler too much. Ziggler's on his 3rd or 4th heel gimmick whereas Bryan is just being given the "I am something that everyone hates" turn. Punk had the same thing last year and if that's any indication, Bryan can develop further.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Ziggler gets a bit of heat from all that posing while he is wrestling a match but he is forgettable without his manager when he is not wrestling.

 

[Coco]

He hasn't used the Fameasser to finish guys in years.

 

[Nate DaMac]

He hasn't used the Fameasser to finish guys in years.

You've been paying a lot more attention than I have.

 

[Coco]

You've been paying a lot more attention than I have.

You take that back right now!

 

[Poop Master Flex]

If Ziggler left the WWE tomorrow, in 3 weeks tops no one would remember the guy, that's how bland and forgettable he is.

 

[justinsayne]

Yeah, the Fameasser is more of a signature move than a finisher.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

What about Wade? I like Wade. I like his Britness. I remember reading his tweets or sound bites when he was a commentator.



Why doesn't he take Miz's place as top heel on Raw when he returns? Whyski?