What matters- the title or the division?

[Toroc102]

Recently there has been a lot of debate about the current use of the Tag-Titles and if them being Unified, and if teams like Jerishow/DX do anything to help the prestige of the titles.

When I began to argue this I realized that, one of the points I'd been arguing against for a long time now was suddenly one that I agree'd with, that the belts ARE just props, albeit improtant ones.

It's my opinion that the belt should be there to elevate the Division that it represents. The World/WWE Titles are there for the Main-Eventers, Tag-Titles for the Tag-Teams, IC/US TItles for the Mid-Card.

Now the argument being made for the Unified Titles was that by having Main-Eventers like Jerishow and D/X hold the belts it made the Belts look stronger, but my argument, is that having Main-Eventers hold the belts defeats the ACTUAL purpose of the belts which is to elevate Tag-Teams, and eventually make singles stars out of them. If a Main-Event Tag-Team is going to be formed, then it would only help the Titles and by extention the Division, if the Tag-Team stayed together after the initial loss and continued to feud with the team that took the titles from them. If the Main-Event teams loses and dispands after their first loss it gives off a few impressions:

1. That team wasn't really that interested in the Tag-Titles anyway

2. That team was having problems anyway

3. That team was above the Tag-Titles(from a fans perspective)

Imo, any rub that an opponent would gain from beating a ME Tag-Team would be gone after a month if there was no feud to go with it and the team just broke up afterwards anyway. Like saying hey, what are we wasting time with the Tag-Titles anyway, we're Main-Eventers dammit.

This is the impression I get from the way the Tag-Titles are being used currently, I don't think in the end that it will actually help the Division.

On the contrary, I think the US and IC Titles are being utilized very well currently, except for a speed bump last night with Kofi and The Miz. The Main-Eventers are being kept away from the titles, because when they're around them they overshadow the guys that are currently competing for them. Kofi is a pretty good example of this, basically, I think WWE now see's him as above to US Title, and now that he got another shot at the US Title he made The Miz look bad last night, like he was going to get the win two times in a row, in convincing fashion.

This is the same reason that the Cruiserweight Division could never flourish in the WWE and why it eventually started to die down in WcW and why the X-Division started to die down in TNA. At its peak, the Cruiserweights and the Maineventers(Heavyweights) never interfered with each other in matches. However, once Kevin Nash decided he wanted to feud with Mysterio and ME's started getting involved the Cruiserweights looked weaker and weaker by comparison. In the WWE, they never really had a chance to begin with, how was Vince ever going to build a division around his jobbers? TNA, once AJ and Daniels outgrew the Division, and once again Kevin Nash had to interfere and destroy the majority of the X-Division guys it was over for it too. Kurt Angle got into it with apparently the best of intentions, but obviously, they weren't going to have him look bad against their X-Division guys so he made them look just as weak as Kevin Nash did, and there went the X-Division.

The point is, when ME interfere with other Divisions, imo, it only hurts the other Divisions, and for the most part elevates only one person or team out of a whole Division, and thats if that one Person or team gets a good win. If it ends up being a fluke win like it usually is, then it helps no one and destroys a whole Division. Its been seen throughout history, and no one ever learns.

Anyhow what do you guys think, shouldn't the Main-Eventers be sticking with their own?

 

[Dagger Dias]

I agree with both sides of the argument.

Main Eventers should stick to being main eventers because their characters are made to appear as if they only want more world title shots and couldn't care less about the midcard or tag team titles. Looking at JeriShow and DX.... all 4 men will be back in the world title hunt eventually.

However.... these guys have brought importance to the belts. Who honestly cared about the tag team belts in the past couple of years? Miz and Morrison were the best recent tag team, and even they were a random mash-up that just happened to work out fantastically. The "true" tag teams are a shadow of what the division once was. Future tag teams can look at the tag team belts (even if they ever became de-unified) and say we can hold the same belt that Jericho, Big Show, HBK, and HHH once held! It makes a belt feel more important.

PLUS, an additional point. As long as the belts remain unified, the champions have access to all shows. DX can go on Smackdown even though they are Raw exclusive. So if/when the belts get separated again, this historical time will bring prestige as well. The past several months have done wonders for the tag division even though no "true" tag teams have held the belts in a couple of years.

Although.... I think the title is more important than the division because that is what the division is centered around. You're a main eventer because you want a world title, or you are in a tag team (a TRUE tag team) because you want a tag team title.

 

[Toroc102]

I think the only reason that The Miz and Morrison weren't bigger is because they really didn't have any quality competition. Referring again to the ME's it is always the best because it always has the best competition. Rememeber, everyone's problem with the Main-Event scene is that there isn't enough new blood, there aren't enough credible contenders for the belts. Well its the same thing with the Tag-Division. There aren't any name worthy credible contenders for tag-Teams. back in the day you had Dudley's, Hardy's, E and C, T And A, APA, 5 teams competing for one titles, 5 NAMES working for one title. You haven't really had that for the past 5 years, these days you could never put together one of those amazing TLC matches with 3 or 4 teams that they used to put together. Now, its basically 2 teams feuding at most at any given time, because their are usually only two teams.

If there is no Division to support the belt then the title looks again weaker. Its like, does anyone think that its even worth competing for? I remeber when a team like The Dudleyz that stood no chance against UT or KAne seperately could take them on evenly in a Tag-Match. You don't get that nowadays.

 

[wrestling fan 666]

I see both sides to this. Having ME stars hold the belts brings more prestige to the titles. On the other hand, where does it leave the division. Back in the older days of NWA, the Rock and Roll express, who were definitely smaller, dominated the division against stronger opponents (the Road Warriors, the Horsemen, etc). The way the WWE is making this out, no one can defeat ME stars; they're too dominated by the former world champs. With DX in the picture, let's face it, who's going to beat them, not: The Hart Foundation, Crime Time, or the new guys on ECW. This is the most frustrating thing for the mid-carders for there's no chance.

I think they need to split up the belts again. What's wrong with Jerishow with one belt and DX with another. At least Jericho made other teams look as though they had a chance of winning. DX is too strong for the belts.

 

[Yakuza Kid Yoshi]

It's definitely the division itself, if you have wrestlers like Hornswoggle trying to do Cruiserweight moves I'm pretty sure it would look completely ridiculous and that's especially with any division if you have wrestlers that can't wrestle aka Women's/Diva's division it doesn't really look good and it just makes people lose interest and just gives them a piss break or time to eat or something other than watching

 

[Klown_Karnage]

I have to say that, from looking at the various famous wrestling promotions today, divisions really don't mean anything. I mean, they used to, I'll admit. You had your main event, your midcard, your cruserweights, your womens division, all that, and a special belt for all of them. True, the whole Intercontinental and US titles really didn't mean what they sounded like they did, but that's beside the point. The fact is that when wrestlers started fighting and feuding outside of their own divisions, and then winning titles outside their own divisions, then really the divisions didn't mean anything anymore. What it is: somebody has a belt and somebody else wants it. It doesn't matter what division it is. If it can be competed over, it will be competed over by somebody.

Let's face it, when Rey Mysterio won the heavyweight championship, or even earlier in various other divisions, it pretty much collapsed the whole division thing. (To clarify, I liked that Rey had one heavyweight run even if he was booked really weak in the process, but let's move on.) Now with someone like Sheamus, a frizzy-haired orangutan of a wrestler who is extremely new and should at least have to go through the midcard before grabbing main event gold, carrying the WWE title, I don't really think the whole division thing matters anymore.

 

[y2empleh]

I actually think the JeriShow/DX feud is helping both the title and the division. But before I get to that let me get to a point you make about teams splitting up after losing the titles. I'm a bit confused as to which teams you are referring to. JeriShow "split" because they are on different shows. Remember the original team was Jericho/Edge but with Edge's injury, Jericho found a replacement. Before them you had the Colons and Miz/Morrison. Colons split because Carlito blamed Primo for them losing the titles. Miz/Morrison split because they were drafted to opposite shows. If anything the Carlito/Primo split helped the legacy of the tag title by showing how much it meant to the wrestlers.

Ok, now back to my original point of the JeriShow/DX feud helping the tag title and the tag division. Having Main Eventers team up to fight for the tag titles brings it prestige. Shows that it's not a low level title. The tag title match MAIN EVENTED the last PPV. Now with that said, the fact that it is helping the prestige of the title itself is also helping the tag division indirectly. Makes the feuds over it mean a heck of a lot more. As for it being used to elevate teams, you have to remember, not every feud is about elevating someone, sometimes it's just about two people feuding over a title, personal differences, whatever.

Now do I think they dropped the ball on a few teams here lately? Yes I do. MVP/Henry come to mind. But those 2 did get a shot at the titles, they came up short. It's not a bad thing for people to go after a title and not get it. I actually think there are far too many title changes all across WWE. Frequent title changes is what weakens the title and division. Where the title now switching often makes it mean more when it does. But aside from them there really aren't many teams right now who need the title at the moment. Legacy is in a storyline with Randy Orton, it's believed Hart Dynasty will be involved along with DX in the Bret Hart/Vince McMahon feud so I'm certain they will get a tag title shot here soon. Right now let the main eventers bring prestige back to the tag titles while hopefully the WWE builds up tag teams again that can feud for the titles after wrestlemania.

 

[KKarvox]

I completly agree, in fact i made a thread about how "mega-powers" teams with main eventers overall hurt the tag-division because they make the division look weak. The point is, putting teams like DX, Jerishow, HBK-Cena, HHH-Austin etc. in the tag division is great to advance the fueds ithin the teams, but buries the other tag-teams, because they look/are below them. Jeri-show may have brought prestige to the belts, but in return made every tag-team in WWE look worthless by comparision.

 

[mattg0728]

I think the division is more important than the titles, because if you have a strong tag-division then the titles look more prestigious. But I don't think it's a problem right now with DX and JeriShow fighting it out for the titles. They actually act like teams, not like individuals put together. And at least they come out to the same music unlike most teams that are thrown together come out to their separate entrance themes. I know this is off topic, but does any of the old school fans remember the Crockett Tag Team Tournament they had in the 80's in NWA? They would put people together in those tournaments as well as have normal tag teams. I think it would be a good way of trying out some teams to see how they fit together if WWE had something along the same lines.

 

[neildittmar]

Perhaps the real question is, what matters most... the title or the division? In my opinion, the answer is fairly straightforward. Without a title (or some prize of significance to compete for), the division is meaningless. Without a solid division full of talented individuals/teams, the title is meaningless. Unfortunately, I think much of the title landscape in WWE regardless of division is hinged on the latter.

Specifically, tag team wrestling hasn't been more than a matter of convenience in WWE for quite some time now. By that, I mean tag teams are created to give main eventers some down time (ie; Shawn Michaels and HHH don't have to wrestle entire matches on their own) or to give floundering "Superstars" another chance at getting over. Now don't get me wrong, there are some bright spots like the Hart Dynasty and Legacy (Dibiase and Rhodes), but WWE still can't escape the "convenience" premise with regards to the tag division. To do this, they need a depth of talent that focuses specifically on tag team wrestling... teams who are dedicated to it, and won't split a month later to go after a singles belt.

Do "Superstar" teams like JeriShow and DX help the tag title itself? Yes, insomuch that we now have established, main event caliber wrestlers fighting over titles that have stagnated with the "last chancers" for so long. Even if you don't like the teams, it gives the title "star power" and further legitimizes it as a serious championship to hold. At a minimum, it helps bring the belts up to the level of the WWE and World titles.

Does it help the division though? No, and it goes one further to actually cause harm. None of the "other" tag teams are anywhere near the same level as DX or JeriShow. To get them there will take a year or more of prominent, on-air exposure that I don't think Vince and Company have any interest in promoting.

 

[Dyscord]

The titles ARE important, but the division is so much more important.

When you're the champion of a division that only has 2 or 3 serious contenders, it defeats the purpose. As someone pointed out before, look at DX. Now look at the rest of the division. At this point, does it honestly look like they're going to be defeated by the likes of Cryme Tyme?

When you have a strong division, having ME champs can work. Dude Love and Steve Austin were main event caliber when they were champs. Same thing with Foley and Rock. But they had a pretty strong tag division back then.

As it stands now, Trips and Shawn have no business being in the tag team scene. Especially not long term.

 

[[email protected]]

Recently there has been a lot of debate about the current use of the Tag-Titles and if them being Unified, and if teams like Jerishow/DX do anything to help the prestige of the titles.

When I began to argue this I realized that, one of the points I'd been arguing against for a long time now was suddenly one that I agree'd with, that the belts ARE just props, albeit improtant ones.

It's my opinion that the belt should be there to elevate the Division that it represents. The World/WWE Titles are there for the Main-Eventers, Tag-Titles for the Tag-Teams, IC/US TItles for the Mid-Card.

Now the argument being made for the Unified Titles was that by having Main-Eventers like Jerishow and D/X hold the belts it made the Belts look stronger, but my argument, is that having Main-Eventers hold the belts defeats the ACTUAL purpose of the belts which is to elevate Tag-Teams, and eventually make singles stars out of them. If a Main-Event Tag-Team is going to be formed, then it would only help the Titles and by extention the Division, if the Tag-Team stayed together after the initial loss and continued to feud with the team that took the titles from them. If the Main-Event teams loses and dispands after their first loss it gives off a few impressions:

1. That team wasn't really that interested in the Tag-Titles anyway

2. That team was having problems anyway

3. That team was above the Tag-Titles(from a fans perspective)

Imo, any rub that an opponent would gain from beating a ME Tag-Team would be gone after a month if there was no feud to go with it and the team just broke up afterwards anyway. Like saying hey, what are we wasting time with the Tag-Titles anyway, we're Main-Eventers dammit.

This is the impression I get from the way the Tag-Titles are being used currently, I don't think in the end that it will actually help the Division.

On the contrary, I think the US and IC Titles are being utilized very well currently, except for a speed bump last night with Kofi and The Miz. The Main-Eventers are being kept away from the titles, because when they're around them they overshadow the guys that are currently competing for them. Kofi is a pretty good example of this, basically, I think WWE now see's him as above to US Title, and now that he got another shot at the US Title he made The Miz look bad last night, like he was going to get the win two times in a row, in convincing fashion.

This is the same reason that the Cruiserweight Division could never flourish in the WWE and why it eventually started to die down in WcW and why the X-Division started to die down in TNA. At its peak, the Cruiserweights and the Maineventers(Heavyweights) never interfered with each other in matches. However, once Kevin Nash decided he wanted to feud with Mysterio and ME's started getting involved the Cruiserweights looked weaker and weaker by comparison. In the WWE, they never really had a chance to begin with, how was Vince ever going to build a division around his jobbers? TNA, once AJ and Daniels outgrew the Division, and once again Kevin Nash had to interfere and destroy the majority of the X-Division guys it was over for it too. Kurt Angle got into it with apparently the best of intentions, but obviously, they weren't going to have him look bad against their X-Division guys so he made them look just as weak as Kevin Nash did, and there went the X-Division.

The point is, when ME interfere with other Divisions, imo, it only hurts the other Divisions, and for the most part elevates only one person or team out of a whole Division, and thats if that one Person or team gets a good win. If it ends up being a fluke win like it usually is, then it helps no one and destroys a whole Division. Its been seen throughout history, and no one ever learns.

Anyhow what do you guys think, shouldn't the Main-Eventers be sticking with their own?

This is just my opinion but what the heck was tna thinking putting rob terry in the spot of getting a tna X-Division I think some one has already said this but mif hulk hogan brings the NwO with him to TNA it will shake up the tag team part of tna. especially with kevin nash being the holder of the tag team brief case but now that he has eric as a partner who is he going to chose eric or some one from the NWO.So to me tna should start all over new talent exclusive to that brand or that Division. Now in wwe they want new faces so why not show that by that division.

 

[FreezeIzGAWD]

U know I was watching an old PRIME TIME WRESTLING show the other day and U know what the WWE misses the MOST BOTH TAG TEAM WRESTLING BY REAL TAG TEAMS AND REAL 100% JOBBERS! Now as far as the belts just being props.. THAT'S FUKKIN ******ED! Up until recently a title reign ACTUALLY MEANT SOMETHING! It didn't MATTER what title just having a TITLE MEANT SOMETHING! I actually remember when STING helped SHANE DOUGLAS win the UFC TV title! THE CROWD WENT WILD! No Shane didn't hold the belt long but it didn't matter! HE HAD WON A CHAMPIONSHIP! Now becuz wrestling treats a title change like it is SUPPOSE 2 happen each week THE VALUE HAS BEEN DILUTED! I remember ppl crying when HOGAN got pinned by ANDRE 4 thw WWF heavyweight Belt... WHY? Because ppl cared about the PRESTIGE OF THE TITLE!

Now Sheamus wins the belt and it is greeted with a HO HUM! THINK ABOUT IT! SHEAMUS IS THE WWE HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION! Look @ the heritage and lineage and its like WOW! Anyway back 2 the tag team title! Nowadays because so many wrestlers want 2 be THE MAIN EVENT they don't want 2 share the spotlight therefore there AREN'T ANY REAL TAG TEAMS LEFT! Period! It doesn't matter about DX & Jerishow what matters is NOT ONE WRESTLER IN TODAYS WORLD WANT 2 BE PURELY A TAG TEAM WRESTLER ANYMORE! There is more money selling individual merchandise! Does anyone hear care about the KILLER BEES, The Young Stallions, the young pistols, etc... BUT EVERYONE CARES ABOUT A SOLO STAR...4 instance SHAWN MICHAELS leaving JANNETTY! 4 the division 2 work U NEED GUYS WHO WILL SPEND YEARS AS A REAL TAG TEAM AND NOT JUST SOME MAKE SHIFT GROUP 4 A COUPLE OF MONTHS AND TH@ JUST AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!!!