What is TNA/IW to the WWE Really?

[Rayne]

Wow, how nice of you to be a dick. All you did was shoot down Dizzy's arguments with your opinions, something which you called him out on. I feel like defending this guy cuz there's so many of you out on the internet, acting like you're hot shit cuz you have a computer and an opinion, or you're just a troll with nothing better to do.

Dizzy brings up some good points and you shoot them down as if they're being made towards you personally. It even sounds like you're basically stalking him if you respond to his posts a lot.

............

"This is why I like your posts, you never actually support any of your arguments." Where is your support of your arguments? I didn't see anywhere where you supported your comments any more than Dizzy did. Sure you gave opinions, but none were backed up with any kind of support or facts. Stop pretending like you're gods gift to the IWC and stop bothering people.

I explained that a tour of Mexico and India is meaningless without knowledge of how the tour did moneywise, used my experience founding and running a business to explain that growing businesses need capital, and don't expand operations only when they make a profit, explained how one of his arguments rested entirely upon his argument that a woman he never met must be just like his ex-boss, and showed how he completely made up a theory of a mass exodus out of the WWE because professional wrestlers will apparently start caring more about their personal feelings than how big their check is. There's not a single opinion in my post, it is a logical deconstruction of Dizzy's arguments to demonstrate that they don't make any actual sense. I made no statements besides "growing businesses need capital", and that's not an opinion, I'm trying to keep you from being laughed out of your first Econ 101 class. You're upset that I didn't back up my statements? I didn't make any statements that could have been defended, like dividing by zero, you're asking me to defend a non-declatory. With Dizzy, he claimed that (event) must be good, based on that he said so. I asked "how?" Now I'm the asshole for not bobbing my head and agreeing.

See, Dizzy has good points if he's saying what you already want to hear. If you want to view TNA/IW as an unfairly maligned company repeatedly martyred on the internet, he's a pretty good read. His arguments typically don't make much sense once you examine them, and usually tend to rely on his statements that "I say this will happen, so it must", without any coherent, logical theory behind why. But he's not writing for people who are analyzing their arguments logically; he's making emotional arguments.

If you want to defend Dizzy, do it. Demonstrate to me how my post is mistaken. Don't sit there and go "oh, you big meany", I know that already, and I'm not posting here to make people feel good about themselves. I'm posting here for the minority that actually looks at an argument and thinks about it without wondering how they can tilt it towards an ulterior agenda. Defend Dizzy if you want, but that is one job just too difficult for me personally to take.

Wrestling is entertainment, and I really don't know why everyone has to be so hostile to others who have a difference of opinion. I hate people who come on here and just bitch about how terrible TNA is for things that they don't even do. like "oh, its all old guys give the originals a shot." Then, TNA shocks everyone by having James Storm win it all in a really cool moment (although the match sucked) and everyone is now bitching, and the guy's been in TNA since day one. People are on here to just troll and it's annoying as fuck and old as fuck. Get a life and have a real fucking discussion with opinions and arguments that aren't out to get someone specifically and are at least a little thought out.

Oh, I'm not worried about people thinking my posts are well thought out, that's the #1 comment I get in my rep section. Also not worried about having a life, I've got my own business, a girl way the fuck out of my league who fucks like a goddamned demon, a sport that I love which I do well at- my life is really fucking good right now, judgements of people on the internet whom I'll never meet not withstanding. Funny- no one tries going after my arguments, they just jump right to "you have no life" or "you're a 10%er!"

But I have no idea why you chose to bitch about TNA originals and James Storm, beyond towing Dizzy's "anyone who disagrees with me must think ridiculous things about TNA/IW" line. I've often posted that hiring WWE wrestlers with name recognition is a great move, and was one of the few people in the James Storm thread posting about how it was a very smart booking decision. I don't give a shit what other people are saying on the internet. I'm not them, they aren't me, and we have different arguments. What I'm really tired of is every limp dick on the boards going "I don't like you, you must believe this", and then watching them run around like they've proven a point when I won't defend arguments that I don't make and don't believe in.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

To WWE, I think TNA is no larger than how WWE looked at ECW, a company that has talent they want but perceive them as no real threat to their company (which is probably a fair assessment of what TNA is to WWE). They obviously recognize the talent that is over in TNA and I'm sure they keep an eye on it in some fashion, if they didn't TNA stars like Awesome Kong wouldn't have got signed by WWE but I don't think they even look at TNA as real competition since their buyrates or ratings aren't even in the same stratosphere as WWE's.

To answer your other question TNA has to learn how to make stars if they will ever take the #1 spot in wrestling. That's what WWE always had and that's why they've been on top for 25 years (minus 2 in 96-97). WWE knew how to make stars, market and showcase them in such a way that hardcore and casual fans wanted to see them. Of course the wrestlers themselves (like Austin, Rock, and Hogan) had talent on their own, but it was WWE who knew how to hone their skills and make them bigger than wrestling, Hogan was popular before he was in the WWE but WWE and their ability to market and showcase Hogan to the public is what made Hogan larger than life, same with Austin. In regards to the Rock, they knew immediately what they had but once again they knew how to market the Rock and elevate him to the mainstream and the Rock eventually became so big he no longer needed to wrestle to be successful, one of the few wrestlers that have been able to do that.

I would say their booking and storyline writing also needs to improve (and in all fairness it has) and get more consistent. TNA often has good ideas on paper but they don't always execute them in the best way which can turn people off to their product. No matter how good an idea or booking decision is if its not executed well then it becomes a waste. TNA seems to have a lot of good ideas in booking and story lines they just need to learn how to execute it better which in turn will help people tune into their product more instead of so many people bitching about it (as this seems to be the source of why most people bitch about TNA).

So for them to be #1 I think its that simple, make new stars and do better at marketing and showcasing them to the casual audience and secondly execute their booking and storyline's better, it has improved but still needs to move up.

 

[Dizzy]

Great, they toured Mexico and India? How were the gate receipts there? ROH has done international tours too. If you don't do something with it, it's all show and no blow.

ROH?

I'm talking building brands in India and Mexico. TV shows, tours, etc. David Lagana was hired to creatively write the wrestling show that will be airing in India under the TNA name.

That's an easy one to answer. A company doesn't grow without spending money. You don't spend out of your profit if you're trying to grow quickly, you spend a large amount of money upfront (the hiring spree last year, set upgrades, HD camera upgrades, expanded touring) in order to recoup it in years future. A business trying to expand would be far more likely to spend money outside of their profit, because you aren't going to grow without a strong capital investment. Grats on you and your art center, I've been running a business for the past three years.

That's obviously true but at the end of the day none of us know if they do and do not do that and that is based on your personal opinion of how the dirtsheets make the company out to be according to your logic.

Cool story, but you base that entirely on your personal opinion of how the WWE treats their employees (based on dirt sheet rumors which you love to slam when they don't suit you), with no factual information whatsoever. Getting past that, it's an anecdote about how you hate your old boss.

My opinion? I do not believe a single dirtsheet report because they all are wanna be journalists that cannot keep their bias feelings outside of articles, however. There is a big difference to believing a dirtsheet and a employee's personal point of view. We've heard how WWE treats their talent from RVD, Raven, Mick Foley, Victoria and recently Gail Kim. What next? They are lying?

Which causes a domino effect based on what evidence, that you say so? The end is coming, because Dizzy insists it must, with no historical precedent? This is why I like your posts, you never actually support any of your arguments, but it always comes down to "the WWE is like this because I say, and this has to happen because I say". What's your theory behind why there will be a domino effect of people leaving the WWE, because professional wrestlers will stop liking higher paychecks, bigger exposure, the possibility of movie deals and street recognition because their boss is mean to them? Or is it that suddenly TNA/IW will be able to offer this mass exodus of wrestlers shitloads of money, like a chicken and egg type deal?

Who is gets higher pay? Cena, Orton or Mason Ryan? Who gets these movie deals? Triple H or Curt Hawkins? What exposure? WWE offers the same amount of exposure a TV kids show does and I'm sure everyone wants to be apart of movies that nobody cares about.

I'm giving an example of what could happen down the line. You sound like a mark that cannot accept the fact it is possible for certain talent to walk away from any company.

Jericho certainly didn't give a shit about none of those things you listed when he was in talks with TNA way back when. Obviously, the deal fell apart.

Christian didn't give a shit either.

If you call wrestling in front of kids, exposure then it certainly is.

Learn to get beyond first-order consequences. You do better for yourself when you pretend you can't see my responses.

Who do you think you are? Seriously? Get your head out of your ass for once.

 

[hatehabsforever]

God, it is amazing to me how defensive fans of the TNA product are, certain ones in particular. The question was simple, how does WWE perceive TNA? Lots of people, myself included, responded by saying that TNA was absolutely no threat to WWE whatsoever. Really, I cannot fathom how anyone, even Dizzy, could challenge that statement.

I like TNA, I really do. I criticize it because despite the things I like about it, it continually disappoints me and at the worst possible moments. Despite the things I like about it, it is crystal clear to me that it threatens WWE in no way whatsoever, and in all likelihood, never will. That's not saying it is a terrible product, because it isn't. That's not to say that it should or will go out of business, because it likely won't and shouldn't. It provides an alternative for people who like WWE but want something else to watch, as well as an alternative for those who don't appreciate the quality and dominance of WWE.

In pro football, NFL is the pinnacle and that's undeniable. The CFL exists as well, and has it's loyal core audience, many of whom prefer it to NFL. Should the CFL be canned, absolutely not. Are its fans wrong to enjoy it, again no. But is it competition for the NFL, not a chance. Will it ever be, not in a million years.

NFL=WWE in this analogy, while CFL=TNA. Two coexisting organizations, both of whom have their fans, some of whom like both, but competition? Not by a long shot. Be passionate by all means, but keep this passion in the realm of reality.

 

[Dagger Dias]

In terms of competition, comparing TNA to WWE at this point would still see TNA look like an insect. We saw last year in the short lived second Monday Night War that TNA are not anywhere near WWE yet because they tried to start a battle they could not win and ended up calling for a retreat soon after. They have improved significantly and retain their status as the #2 federation but they need to keep getting better. Having less complicated booking would help, as would having far less heel/face turns. They do have a better tag team and female division than WWE does. Build up a strong midcard and push less WWE/WCW rejects in the upper card, then we'll talk.

 

[Dizzy]

In terms of competition, comparing TNA to WWE at this point would still see TNA look like an insect.

Extreme exaggeration. If TNA is an insect to WWE than SmackDown is an insect to Raw? Come on now.

We saw last year in the short lived second Monday Night War that TNA are not anywhere near WWE yet because they tried to start a battle they could not win and ended up calling for a retreat soon after.

Not even the case. They got better ratings on Thursday repeats than they did on Mondays due to Raw, Football and other shows. They moved back to Thursdays because that's where the viewership continued to watch.

A full retreat would have been after they drew a 0.9 and they had no intentions of leaving until they saw data that proved Thursdays was a natural better fit.

They have improved significantly and retain their status as the #2 federation but they need to keep getting better.

Agreed and they certainly have mad tremendous strides from 2009 to 2011.

Having less complicated booking would help

I'm sorry but that isn't a good reason. What people see as "complicated" makes sense and what people see as making sense often is "complicated" so that isn't a real good reason.

For example, RAW and WWE's current booking is beyond complicated to me but it may make sense to you.

as would having far less heel/face turns.

Still don't see this either. Kurt turned heel after 2 years as a face after MEM split. Jeff turned face (forcefully) after 1 year as a heel. Anderson slightly turned heel aligning with Immortal but he was more of a tweener than a heel.

They do have a better tag team and female division than WWE does.

Better female division? Yes. Tag Team Division? Semi-debatable now. They only have 2 tag teams now until MCMG returns.

Build up a strong midcard and push less WWE/WCW rejects in the upper card, then we'll talk.

X-Division with Aries is certainly headed that way. I still don't get the reason to push "rejects" who really cares? Talent is talent. Wrestlers are wrestlers.

Does anyone adopt a pet or child and proclaim them as a "reject" because they were not born in their house? No, so why should it apply to wrestlers? Jobs are jobs. Business is business.

If a guy gets released from WWE and wants to sign with TNA to get them back and comes off as a bitter idiot, that's when it becomes a "reject" argument but if they need to make a living, why should we care?

 

[Poop Master Flex]

If a guy gets released from WWE and wants to sign with TNA to get them back and comes off as a bitter idiot, that's when it becomes a "reject" argument but if they need to make a living, why should we care?

I actually agree with this statement here is it shouldn't matter whether or not a "reject" as some would call them gets pushed or not. Frankly if a wrestler has talent, can be beneficial to their company and has done enough to warrant a push than they should get it plain and simple.

The only times I don't like it is when ex WWE/WCW wrestlers get pushed on the sole reason they were in a larger company despite what they bring to the table. I think Chief Morley and Matt Hardy are perfect examples. True Chief Morley didn't last long but got some big wins while he was there and there are plenty of guys on the roster who should have gotten pushed more than Matt Hardy. He was a hard worker but TNA has plenty of hard workers, his push had more to do with him being Jeff's brother than anything else.

In regards to guys like Kurt Angle or RVD they both deserved to get pushed and both were able to bring something to the table in regards to TNA. When RVD debuted that was one of the loudest pops I ever heard in the impact zone and even if Kurt has personal issues it never affects his work as you always know you are gonna get quality from Kurt Angle no matter what's going on in his life mentally or physically.

I don't care who gets pushed in TNA as long as they can warrant a push, if they're pushed because of where they come from then I don't feel they should be.

 

[Lowdown]

Truthfully, I think WWE recognizes TNA as another wrestling promotion, just on a smaller scale. They're aware that they exist, especially Jim Ross, who has acknowledged TNA on more than one occasion on his blog. And they're also aware of the talent that leaves them or they "future endeavored". If Vince is a smart man, and most folks consider him to be that, I seriously doubt that he completely writes off TNA as being inferior to his product, which it is. I prefer TNA don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing in the least. But say what you want about McMahon. WWE continues to grow and globally expand, especially since there's supposed to be a WWE network launching. TNA doesn't have the capital to compete on that grand of scale. Yes they go overseas here and there and tour some parts of the U.S. I think it does help when the wrestlers go to various other promotions just so fans can witness what they haven't already. And TNA is doing some promotional cruise where passengers will interact with a few of the TNA roster. They seem to be on the right track, but they need more, and I'd start like most folks would by getting out of the Impact zone for a long period. Stay in Florida if need be, go to Amway or AA arena down in Miami. Go the St. Pete Times Forum in Tampa. Simply branch out more than they have been.

 

[Rayne]

All the rolling smiley faces are cute, but they don't do much to disguise the fact that you aren't making any arguments.

ROH?

I'm talking building brands in India and Mexico. TV shows, tours, etc. David Lagana was hired to creatively write the wrestling show that will be airing in India under the TNA name.

Building brands? Good to know. What's that worth, anyways? How many American promotions have been successful in those two countries, James Taggart? (You won't know the reference, but it amuses me.)

That's obviously true but at the end of the day none of us know if they do and do not do that and that is based on your personal opinion of how the dirtsheets make the company out to be according to your logic.

My opinion about capitalizing a business in order to succeed, (which is right), or that TNA/IW would need to capitalize in order to succeed (also right?) That's not opinion, I could have told you that when I was nineteen. The popular "well I don't know for sure so this is all everyone's opinion" internet answer notwithstanding, of course.

My opinion? I do not believe a single dirtsheet report because they all are wanna be journalists that cannot keep their bias feelings outside of articles, however. There is a big difference to believing a dirtsheet and a employee's personal point of view. We've heard how WWE treats their talent from RVD, Raven, Mick Foley, Victoria and recently Gail Kim. What next? They are lying?

Good point. Employees NEVER talk bad about employers that fire them. What the fuck was I thinking????

Who is gets higher pay? Cena, Orton or Mason Ryan? Who gets these movie deals? Triple H or Curt Hawkins? What exposure? WWE offers the same amount of exposure a TV kids show does and I'm sure everyone wants to be apart of movies that nobody cares about.

If Curt Hawkins wants to lead an exodus to TNA/IW's door, that you still didn't explain how that exodus would work (besides basing it on stories you read on the dirt sheets that you liked as opposed to didn't), I think TNA/IW might turn that line away.

And I'd MUCH rather be a part of movies not many people hear about than not be in movies. How many films is TNA/IW producing these days, anyways?

I'm giving an example of what could happen down the line. You sound like a mark that cannot accept the fact it is possible for certain talent to walk away from any company.

I could also shit lollipops. Let's talk in terms of likelyhoods.

Jericho certainly didn't give a shit about none of those things you listed when he was in talks with TNA way back when. Obviously, the deal fell apart.

Talks, which, by the way, were never confirmed directly by Jericho and were confirmed only by dirtsheet rumor. You like the sheets when they tell you what you want to hear.

Christian didn't give a shit either.

Where's he working at these days?

If you call wrestling in front of kids, exposure then it certainly is.

Their parents have money that's any less green?

Who do you think you are? Seriously? Get your head out of your ass for once.

Someone who answers questions directly. People don't like that.

 

[Dagger Dias]

You know, Dizzy.... I have been watching your posts for a while now and I've seen quite a few where I've wanted to strike up debates on how wrong you are, but always swept it under the rug and moved on to other threads since there usually isn't much to respond to. Now that you have stepped up and challenged one one of my own posts, I have no choice but to tear your post apart with my relentless debating.

Extreme exaggeration. If TNA is an insect to WWE than SmackDown is an insect to Raw? Come on now.

How is it an extreme exaggeration? WWE is THE wrestling federation. The organization that everyone knows about and associates pro wrestling with. TNA hardly has much recognition beyond their fanbase, a large portion of which are also WWE fans. Smackdown isn't an insect compared to Raw, I never said that. They get lower ratings than Raw but people at least know what it is. TNA got squashed like a bug when they challenged Raw, hence why I referred to them as an insect in comparison to WWE.

Not even the case. They got better ratings on Thursday repeats than they did on Mondays due to Raw, Football and other shows. They moved back to Thursdays because that's where the viewership continued to watch.

They got better ratings on thursday because TNA had reruns while Raw did not. If you wanted to see both shows but Raw had no repeat yet TNA did, logic would dictate that you'd watch Raw live and wait for TNA's rerun. Correct? That's what a good number of people did.

A full retreat would have been after they drew a 0.9 and they had no intentions of leaving until they saw data that proved Thursdays was a natural better fit.

A retreat from battle is defined as withdrawing all of one's forces. That's exactly what TNA did. Raw smashed them in the ratings and they ran back to their regular thursday schedule. The fact that they had no intention of leaving until they saw the data further proves that they did in fact have a full retreat from monday night tv schedules.

I'm sorry but that isn't a good reason. What people see as "complicated" makes sense and what people see as making sense often is "complicated" so that isn't a real good reason.

That makes no sense whatsoever. TNA has complicated booking. Their angles and heel/face turns rarely make sense. Ask any of us who venture into subforums other than TNA on this forum. We'll all give you the same answer. TNA's creative team obviously never learned how to keep things simple. Otherwise they would have a much smaller number of people griping about the product.

For example, RAW and WWE's current booking is beyond complicated to me but it may make sense to you.

The conspiracy angle does have me scratching my head a little, I'll give you that. One angle about Triple H being complicated compared to 90% of TNA's angles about basically everyone on the roster for about 3 or 4 years now? WWE at least try to have some continuity in their angles. They also try to make their face/heel turns work. Finally, they don't turn people that often. TNA had those tunnels back in the day because people turned so much that fans needed the tunnels to see if someone was a heel or not.

Still don't see this either. Kurt turned heel after 2 years as a face after MEM split. Jeff turned face (forcefully) after 1 year as a heel. Anderson slightly turned heel aligning with Immortal but he was more of a tweener than a heel.

Kurt was the top HEEL during the time that the Main Event Mafia was around. Nice try. Do your research next time. Jeff's forced turn, they did that to themselves. If you want a guy to be one of your top heels then don't book him into situations where his fans will still cheer for him. I won't even start on Anderson or Immortal.

Better female division? Yes. Tag Team Division? Semi-debatable now. They only have 2 tag teams now until MCMG returns.

Mexican America
Ink Inc
Beer Money
MCMG
British Invasion

WWE has Air Boom. That's it. All of their other "tag teams" are together for storyline reasons such as Awesome Truth or Ziggler/Swagger. TNA has 5 times as many tag teams as WWE. Them having a better division is hardly debatable.

X-Division with Aries is certainly headed that way. I still don't get the reason to push "rejects" who really cares? Talent is talent. Wrestlers are wrestlers.

Wow, really? Do you not get how the wrestling business works? TNA need to push their original talent. They also need to push younger talent. The WCW/WWE rejects are mostly out of their prime and are still associated with the organization(s) they came from. It's not just in the midcard. Even with Sting there are still many people who think about WCW when his name comes up, not TNA. TNA will build a stronger brand name if they push original talent of theirs, and younger guys who have a whole career ahead of them. Look at it this way. Would it be better for TNA to push someone like Aries who has his whole career ahead of him that they can build into one of THEIR guys, or someone like Matt Hardy who is always going to be associated with a tag team in WWE and a failed singles run also from WWE? Think about it for a moment.

Does anyone adopt a pet or child and proclaim them as a "reject" because they were not born in their house? No, so why should it apply to wrestlers? Jobs are jobs. Business is business.

That's one of the stupidest arguments I have ever seen on this forum. You aren't getting a single thing I'm saying, apparently. When has TNA as a federation EVER referred to anyone on their roster as a reject? I never said they did. The fans however refer to the rejects as that, sometimes jokingly and other times not so much, due to them all ending up in TNA after they fail elsewhere, then get pushed in place of guys who deserve it more.

If a guy gets released from WWE and wants to sign with TNA to get them back and comes off as a bitter idiot, that's when it becomes a "reject" argument but if they need to make a living, why should we care?

You should care because TNA are pushing guys who will not help them build a stronger brand name. Some of them like Angle are legitimately trying to find people to pass the torch to. Others just want that "one last run" or are taking up time that other guys could use more to get over.

 

[King Patrick Star]

First, let me say, I love TNAIW.

I think the WWE views TNAIW as a Wrestling company somewhere between WCW and ECW. They are real. They are there. They are doing what the WWE is doing. They are airing on a different day and time. It’s kind of like how Brand Names feel about their respective generic versions.

To put that in terms of today’s Wrestling World, it’s somewhere between Smackdown and Superstars / NXT / Tough Enough. It’s a televised Mid-Card show full of “Rookies” trying to prove themselves with the help of “Pros” past their prime working as coaches.

Did I mention that I love TNAIW??