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Going off topic, but replying directly to this thread, Ilapiere is essentially blaming Vince McMahon for the Benoit crimes as well as numerous wrestler deaths. Can we stop this character assassination of McMahon, please? First off, people don't seem to complain when you're watching the show - how many people watched Benoit perform his headbut and thought, "wow he'll suffer major head trains in the future!"? And how many popped for the move? Secondly, there are barely any wrestlers who only fought for WWE; the vast majority started elsewhere, including Benoit. Did Benoit only perform diving headbuts in WWE? Did he only receive chair shots in WWE? No, he was doing the same in WCW, ECW, NJPW and more, LONG before joining WWE. So how exactly is it Vince's fault?
As for wrestler deaths, it admittedly isn't a great record when you can watch, say, the 1990 Survivor Series, and realise that over a quarter of the featured wrestlers are no longer with us. But again, why blame Vince specifically? Did they all die due to steroids? No (Savage, Bravo and Perfect to name but 3); again, did they only wrestle for Vince? What of the likes of Gino Hernandez, or 3 of the 4 deceased Von Erichs? Or Bobby Duncum Junior? People who all died far too young but NEVER wrestled for Vince. Is that his fault too? You don't realise how uniformed and bitter you sound when you blame Vince McMahon for the deaths of dozens of people.
Anyway, back on topic...
Because I think sometimes, there are double standards to how wrestlers are remembered.
For example, if say, "Stone Cold" Steve Austin had beaten Debra to death, or beat her, and she subsequently dies from injuries consistent with spousal abuse, whether people would have been more forgiving.
I remember a month after Austin plead guilty to "spousal abuse", he gave Stacy Keibler a Stunner on "Raw", and people in the crowd popped for it.
Also, the fact that drugs were found at Benoit's home, the fact he had 11 times the amount of normal testosterone in his system at death (which probably came from steroid use) and even the cops verified that Benoit had maxed out credit cards buying from both legal and illegal drug websites, and the link the media made towards the murders and roid rage, that it is convienient for McMahon to dismiss Benoit, not only for the murders, but so that he won't get federal authorities on his back again, like back in the early 90's.
Also, when police said that Benoit did it, most people accepted it. But if your fave did it, would you doubt the story, and say that the police got it wrong and the superstar would never have done that? Would you accuse the police of botching the investigation? I mean, some Benoit fans say that Kevin Sullivan had motive, and have questioned if Benoit even did it? If one of your faves did it, would you be so quick to accept the police's verdict?
I have never even agreed with the suggestion of erasing Benoit from DVDs. I mean, Chris Benoit never wrestled a match as a murderer, so I can watch his matches, as he had nothing wrong at that point of time. I am glad that Benoit's matches are on WWE Network, and I wouldn't have bought it if it hadn't, because if they edited it to remove Benoit, what else would they edit from their material as well? I want PPVs in full, not matches cut out because some people are stupid enough to think the mere presence of Chris Benoit on screen means that WWE endorses what he did. Hitler has not been removed from all films, and his existence denied, so neither should Benoit. Acknowledgement of existence isn't endorsement of behaviour. In fact, it can be used as a cautionary tale instead.
This is what i wanted to say if my favorite superstar ended 2 lives other than his own, he wouldn't be my favorite superstar anymore plain and simple they don't deserve any recognition.firstly, i'm not a fan of this "what if" because of how bad this "what if" is, but to me it's simple, if one of my favorite wrestlers did what Benoit did, i would want them to get the Benoit treatment where they aren't in the HOF (or they get kicked out) and aren't mentioned and have no dvd sales after the fact either.
Steve Austin is a prick for what he did to Debra, and I would never condone it, but he didn't commit murder. And I doubt people would have been more forgiving just because of who is is.
I've heard fans use this "roid rage" excuse in order to somehow say that it's okay, he did what he did because of the steroids. I say bullshit. He committed two murders over a two day time span and I can see "roid rage" maybe, just maybe being the cause of him killing one person but the way it happened doesn't make sense. He's still a killer though.
People accepted it because the police found evidence to support the claim that he did commit a double murder and suicide. When they went to the house, after the WWE called them, they couldn't even get through the gate. There were dogs guarding the property. So someone just couldn't have walked in and done it. And even if it had been a stranger, do you think Benoit would have let the guy hang around for a day or so and let him kill his son. I highly doubt it. Oh and her ex husband wasn't even in the same state when this happened.
He might never have wrestled as a murderer but that's what he became, and that's what he will always be remembered for. As much as you want to blame others it's not going to fly. Fans know what he did and that's enough for them.
Like I said, Benoit's crimes still doesn't make it practical for WWE to edit or erase DVDs.
Firstly, do you know how hard it is to do. Benoit fought in WWE, WCW and ECW. To remove every bit of footage of him from the Network or DVDs is not only a silly suggestion, but one that virtually couldn't be done anyway.
I like better what the WWE do now. I saw an "Encyclopedia Of WWE Superstars and Divas" book, which lists every WWE superstar ever. I went to look to see if Chris Benoit was omitted, but he has been included. He gets two paragraphs, and his title reigns are acknowledged. I heard that WWE will still record him officially, but not give him any praise. Fair enough.
Also, the idea of having Benoit matches on the Network, but with a warning, and parental controls is a much better way to go, than to go to all the effort of removing someone because some people get offended that WWE is showing footage of someone who murdered, and that must mean they agree with it.
I agree with most of your 2nd paragraph except the part about me sounding 'uniformed' to play for a sports team. How is it Vince's fault? I posed the question is Vince just a 'bit' at fault? Instead of making some sort of absurd statement claiming him to be 100 percent responsible. Reading comprehension skills and proper grammar appear to be on the decline these days. So let me re-explain myself.
I did not say Vince McMahon was 100 percent responsible for the death of Chris Benoit. What I did say is that WWE, a now billion dollar enterprise headed by Scrooge, does not give its wrestlers past or present health or retirement benefits. Since wrestlers with no personality like Chris Benoit were a dime a dozen in their day making just as much as the next guy, these wrestling entertainers have had to resort to a lot of drug abuse to alleviate their physical pain to stay on the treadmill. These wrestlers lived a rock star like reality burning out before their time just trying to stay relevant enough to make enough money to retire. Guys like Benoit had to fight through a lot of adversity their entire careers not only to make it to WWE but to make it high up enough on the card for a reasonable salary. Unlike the ballerinas they're producing today in the NXT Pussy Plant, real tough guy wrestlers lived a tough existence learning their craft the hard way. Most often things like concussions and minor injuries were not reported just so wrestlers could keep their position in the company. It's no secret that back in Benoit's day lower card wrestlers often had to pay out of their own salary for their own transportation, hotels, roids, pain medication and food. God forbid a serious injury!
The WWE made its billion by not properly looking after their wrestlers who helped make them their billion. And then half of them died really young. Vince is the Walmart of wrestling and he has used his clout to ensure that all wrestling in general doesn't adopt better job conditions. Benoit worked for Vince and made him big bucks 300 days a year with a brain that functioned as rationally as an 80 year old's with alzheimers. Yet no one in WWE, not even Vince, had one sweet clue. I hate to make excuses for murderers because I hate cowards...but Benoit sounds like he had become somewhat of a cross between an old man with alzheimers and a soldier with PTSD. These are serious health concerns that frankly someone in his life, including his WWE friends and bosses, should have noticed or tried to help him with. I think it's safe to say Nancy and Daniel Benoit would still be alive today if Benoit had been taken care of like any other employee on earth working for a billionaire.
Now to address some of the wankers here who get all wanky whenever they stumble upon a 'what if' Chris Benoit thread. Here's MakeitFap's argument:
Love those that also go "well he had brain damage and didn't know what he was doing!" well considering he did 1 murder a day, put bibles by their bodies and IIRC even ORDERED the PPV he was supposed to appear at before hanging himself..... *shrug* do you have that same sympathy or mindset for serial killers because they're legally insane? The fact he wasn't "himself" holds no merit as he still knew what the intents of his actions were and did it methodically over a weekend. Disgusting.
MakeitVap: Do you even know what brain damage is?? If you don't, then go look it up now in a dictionary before you comment any further. Brain damage isn't exactly the way they portray it in the movies or on TV. Those with damaged brains don't just sit in nursing homes drooling. They don't just turn into crazed lunatic serial killers who are mentally incapable of placing Bibles on bodies who don't know right from wrong. Of course most brain damaged people know that murdering is wrong. But people with brain damage are tortured internally and experience gradual character change. They tend to tire and rage much more easily than the average person because of chemical triggers that us non-brain damaged people cannot possibly comprehend. They have pain induced BLACKOUTS and occasionally SNAP into uncontrollable fits of rage and are in need of serious medical help. They desperately need emotional and financial support. They should not be getting overly physical playing a pick up game of soccer, let alone delivering flying headbutts for a greedy billionaire 300 dates a year with no health or retirement benefits in sight.
And if y'all don't like that I'm objectively saying about WWE and Billionaire Scrooge, then I have another term for you to look up. Cognitive dissonance. There's nothing 'uninformed' or 'bitter' about standing up for basic human rights.
This isn't a discussion on the ins and outs of the Benoit murder case.
However, I wonder what would the reaction had been, if, instead of Benoit committing such a horrendous crime, if you would be angry if your favourite superstar had done it to his family.
I think that, with Chris Benoit, he was respected, but never loved by fans. He wasn't great on the mike. He wasn't a top guy (except for one year). He was more the journeyman, the veteran who had plied his trade in all the major wrestling companies. He was the guy who could be relied upon for a great match with anyone, but rarely had any effort put into his storylines, when he wasn't being pushed.
It was easy for WWE to pretend to ignore Benoit after the murders, since he was someone often relegated to the background anyway.
But, what if it had been "Stone Cold", the Undertaker,Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Ric Flair, Triple H or higher-profile and much loved superstar who had killed his own family. How would you feel if Daniel Bryan or Dolph Ziggler did it?
Here are some questions:-
1) In this scenario, how would WWE act? Would they be as quick to erase DVDs with them on it? Would it be a more difficult task, because of their enormous impact on wrestling?
2) How would the fans feel? The fans were disgusted that Benoit did this, but, if one of your favourites had done this to their family, would your investment and connection to them be drastically affected, and how?
I think, as much as they don't condone Benoit's actions either, Vince would be relieved that it wasn't a bigger star and more high profile guy, who is a massive name in the industry, who may even have mainstream appeal. How would he pretend the superstar didn't exist then?
Also, Benoit never went into the HoF. Fair enough. But if a superstar who was already in had done it, would they remove him from the HoF? O.J. is still in the NFL HoF, so would WWE remove someone who committed such a crime?
As someone with brain injury myself caused by several severe concussions I can tell you some of what he is describing is definitely true. Fatigue is the biggest issue and is debilitating along with migraines that can literally stop me moving/getting out of bed for days on end... It took years to get it properly recognised as a disability and affects everything, from the job I do to whether I drive a car (legally I can, I choose not to) to how I relate to people. I always describe myself and life as before my accident and after... I lost a lot from it but not all of it was bad, a lot of any "side" I may have once had, be that cockiness, manipulative behaviour or even overconfidence is now gone too.
Mental health issues and personality change is there and while Benoit's brain damage is no more an excuse than my injuries are for mistakes I might make in life it's dangerous and wrong to paint him as a cold calculating killer.
The deterioration was outlined in his diaries that were much publicized and many passages release. He was delusional, to the point he was writing letters to Eddie as if he was just overseas rather than dead. While a horrific moment of clarity may have led him down a darker path once Nancy was dead it's equally plausible and likely that he really was on a different planet by that stage.
The work Nowinski did to bring the brain test results to light don't get enough credit. It's a major reason why the world and sport in particular is now uber Concussion aware. Other guys have since died but Benoit, as wrong and horrid as his acts were showed enough evidence that the concussions were a major factor, along with mental illness for there to be little chance of him serving even a day in anywhere except a secure hospital had he lived.
Does Vince bear responsibility... some but not all. He takes the blame for being anti-union and his stance on how he pays and manages talent. The lawsuits that are coming may get thrown out, but eventually someone will win and win big and then the fact he fought so hard will work against him in terms of payout amount.
But the reality is that wrestlers do know what they do has risks and have done for years, for every guy who sues there will be one who self medicated and ignored signs "to appear tough".
Someone like Benoit is the elephant in the room for Vince, it was on his watch, it was public and it was heinous... the public ultimately won't care the medical reasons/influences...they will just see a child killing monster regardless. As tragic as the deaths were of Nancy and Daniel, arguably the most tragic part is that Benoit succeeded in ending his life... had that not happened I think the picture that the evidence would have brought out would have meant more in terms of long term change...