What If Montreal Was A Work?

[Midnite Express 2009]

It's well known that Hart and McMahon had some well known animosity mainly due to Hart thinking he still had some life left, whereas Vince thought Hart was getting stale and the best thing to do was get the belt away from him.
.

I wonder if this is entirely true because honestly, Hart had one of the better times of his career right before he left the WWE. I think the anti-American gimmick was truely before its time and drew so much heat the way it was supposed to. He was a hero in Canada but a heel in America. Can't say that was stale by any means. PLUS, I would have loved to seen a Hart/Austin rematch w/the title on the line at Mania XIV instead of a hurt Shawn Michaels/Steve Austin title match. Would have been epic and a true passing of the torch. With that said, Hart was nowhere near stale and if Vince considered "that" stale then I wonder what's hot?

 

[Midnite Express 2009]

Midnite, let me clarify my theory a little. I really don't see how Bret's return, or lack of return, makes any difference in Montreal being a work in the first place.

I guess people are assuming that if it WAS a work, they would have had Bret back sooner than this to "finish" the angle. Midnite has said that Bret's absence (until now) indicates that Montreal was a shoot because the angle was left unfinished in a sudden manner. I respectfully disagree because don't believe this has anything to do with it.

I state that the angle WAS finished, for all intents and purposes, with the screwjob, because Bret was leaving for WCW on a multi-year contract. Come hell or high water, we wouldn't be seeing Bret in a WWE ring until his WCW deal ran out, period. So right there, its minimum 3 years until Vince could have hired him again to continue any angles (please correct me if Bret had a different deal, I remember it as 3 years). QUOTE]

I get what you're saying. I do wholeheartedly agree that perhaps, behind the scenes there was some sort of "agreement" where Bret would come back to the WWE after his contract with WCW expired, no matter what was going to happen with WCW at that point. Then Goldberg kicked the crap outa his head and the rest is history, as they say. Even still, let's suppose that Goldberg never kicked Bret, BUT Owen still dies, that could have sadly destroyed any chances of Bret coming back. If this was truely a work, then unforeseenable forces and situations may have prevented the whole thing from playing out. I seriously doubt a man like Vince just places something out there at random, especially something as BIG as the MSJ and just leaves it as that. He knew once Owen died that he had to avoid Bret for quite a bit of time. How would that have looked? Bret comes back after Owen dies? I mean, it would have been okay for the moment, but two-three months after, what would have happened to Bret? So after reading what you said, I agree and change my stance a little bit. yet still hold true to it NOT being a 100% work.

 

[dl200323]

Montreal was a work...

I didnt believe it until Wrestling with Shadows came out... Actually I should say I became suspicious then... I mean why else would all that be recorded like that.... ok you could say yeah it was Brets last day and he wanted video footage, but seems a little weird to me..

But here is why it was a work... It was Vinces way to KILL WCW... WCW had Vince beat at that point.... and without this "screwjob" Vince would of been the one out of business and not WCW...

Vince is a smart businessman... him and Hart had the best relationship... Vince could trust Hart...Vince sent Hart to WCW as a mole to create chaos.... How was this chaos created, well Hart signed the biggest contract in wrestling history.... and by a lot... Here is where the chaos comes in, Hogan had it in his contract that he had to be paid the most of anybody in the company.. meaning that then had to give Hogan what they gave Hart.... The outsiders had it in their contract that they had to be one of the top 3 paid wrestlers in the company (they signed for the EXACT same money).... SO when Hart got that huge contract, Hall and Nash got a significant pay raise...... then theys like Sting, Luger, etc... are like that the hell about me??? It created all the lockeroom mess that became of WCW... who created this, VINCE MCMAHON... Hart was a mole, this was a work, if you cant see that you are either a mark or blind...

And the last question, why would Vince risk sending his best wrestler to WCW... Hart was stale in WWE... Vince used him for what he needed him to do before he left, and that was get Austin over... and the screwjob, well it benefited WWF more than WCW.. it created the "Mr Mcmahon" character, that was needed to feud with Austin.... the feud that beat WCW... and the screw job man people want to turn into WWF to see what Vince was going to say, or Shawn, etc.... People already knew Hart was going to WCW, they didnt know how the screwjob would turn out on WWF TV, which made for good TV..

 

[dl200323]

and the whole "Hart informed Vince he was going to WCW months before this happened" and Vinces reply was "ok, that would be best for you, I think you should do it"... do you think if Austin told Mcmahon this in 99, Vince would have the same answer.... the only reason for Vince "encouraging" Hart to go to WCW, was Hart and Vince created this work, Shawn and HHH were in on it as well, and this killed WCW....

Like I said this was a smart businessman realizing his company was in serious trouble, and he had to find a way to kill the competition... the way to kill it was sending a mole over.. WCW had all the talent, money, and momentum at the time, this was Vince taking a huge chance and it worked and he killed WCW...

 

[The Ultimate]

I am not to familiar with the Montreal Screwjob, but I myself always wondered whether it was a "work" or not. Sometimes I wonder if Vince just did that because he just wanted to start controversy, like most famous, rich people do... Anyway, it could have been a hoax, but judging by the vicious anti-work arguments here, and looking at the information on wikipedia, i guess it was real, but my question in, why did Vince have to humiliate Hart in Bret's own home country, when he could have just scripted him to lose a match, by letting him know, so there wouldn't be any controversy. Or just have them deal with each others problems backstage....?

 

[King Douche]

I know this is off topic but do any of you beleive that HBK found GOD? Or that ir is just BS to make HBK look like a better person then when he was a jackass during his Attitude Era days? Cause I know he is not the same person he was back then, but he may not be an actual saint like people think he is. Also an HBK/Bret confrontation in the ending of RAW would be so freaking AWESOME!!!!!

Now back on topic, no I do not think its a work, too much heated shit to be a work and its real not fake heated tension.

 

[ItsDAMNReal]

It wasn't a work. And the reason Vince's black eye looked like make up is because it WAS make up. Bret broke his hand on Vince's jaw. Vince wanted to be on TV and have the sympathy factor on his side, which is why he had the "black eye".

And if it was a work, EVERYONE would have known about it by now.

 

[MizMark]

I am not to familiar with the Montreal Screwjob, but I myself always wondered whether it was a "work" or not. Sometimes I wonder if Vince just did that because he just wanted to start controversy, like most famous, rich people do... Anyway, it could have been a hoax, but judging by the vicious anti-work arguments here, and looking at the information on wikipedia, i guess it was real, but my question in, why did Vince have to humiliate Hart in Bret's own home country, when he could have just scripted him to lose a match, by letting him know, so there wouldn't be any controversy. Or just have them deal with each others problems backstage....?

If you have looked in wikipedia you should be able to answer the questions you have asked.

From a wrestling point of view Hart should have lost cleanly to Michaels.
Bret needed to drop the title to Shawn, and he was willing to do it the next night on Raw, just not in his home country.
You need to realise that Bret Hart had already agreed to go to WCW, which is why he needed to lose the title before he went, so if he lost cleanly he'd put over Michaels.
Bret would have lost cleanly if McMahon had had his way, which is how it was scripted, but Bret didn't want to lose in his home country, they compromised on a finish and then McMahon screwed him. Apparently.

I like the idea of a work but I think it's wishful thinking rather than anything else. It's a very interesting point though.

 

[boozinjedi]

I know this is off topic but do any of you beleive that HBK found GOD? Or that ir is just BS to make HBK look like a better person then when he was a jackass during his Attitude Era days? Cause I know he is not the same person he was back then, but he may not be an actual saint like people think he is. Also an HBK/Bret confrontation in the ending of RAW would be so freaking AWESOME!!!!!

Now back on topic, no I do not think its a work, too much heated shit to be a work and its real not fake heated tension.

No,I actually think that HBK did find Jesus/God..If you remember the tribute shows done for Eddie and Benoit..HBK talked openly about his faith..I think he said he and Eddie would talk about it alot,Alot of the mexican-based wrestlers are VERY religious,Mysterio has crucifix/cross tattoo does he not?

Granted they jumped the gun with the Benoit tribute..not knowing the whole truth of the situation,BUT the emotions the guys felt at that time was real and genuine,which made it all the more baffling

 

[therealicon86]

you know when i posted on here earlier i was in the middle, but when i read what everyone was saying..."man, it does raise alot of questions" i couldn't help but agree with the facts....and big show said this on the "rise and fall" dvd....

"hall, nash, and hogan had it where they could carve what they wanted out of wcw. by saying every time someone comes in after them they get paid more no matter what they pay the new guy."

so vince sent bret to wcw.

so when you think about it... it comes out to be a work. and im going to try to give you some ideas on what really happened.

1. vince asked bret to go to wcw. and payed him his whole contract. (in advanced)

2. there was a private meeting between bret and vince hours prior to the "bret not wanting to do business" meeting. that was just a way for shawn and hunter to feed into it.

3. right before the match vince told bret exactley what he told shawn and hunter...."no matter what you say deny it, and you knew nothing about it."

so thats something that could of happened as well.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

I have often toyed with this theory and think it is a highly conceivable possibility that it was indeed, a work. For the people who say otherwise, let go of your markhood over this matter, and come to the center. Smarks have way too much pride in their smarky radar to admit that they may have actually been fooled over something, so they have to vehemently denounce it like no tomorrow and try to ridicule anyone that suggests otherwise. Given the numerous coincidences, that is pretty ridiculous for them to do.

What is probably the most damaging claim against this being a shoot is the presence of the Documentary Team that captured all of the right moments ... except for of course, the part where Bret confronted Vince. They managed to get Julie Hart on tape talking to Triple H and accusing him of being in on it. Personally, if it were me having a conversation like that and there was a TV camera present, I would tell them to get the Hell out of there. But that's just me.

The Documentary Team also managed to capture Bret Hart even supposedly confronting Shawn Michaels in the dressing room "for the first time" about the whole thing. Shawn is a very piss poor actor and I think most of the IWC accepts that. Of course he puts on a show with it. But the camera manages to get that conversation from the start.

Now here, guys are dressing in the backstage area, and nobody has a problem with the camera crew being back there? Again, give me a break.

Vince unquestionably got a cut of the proceeds from this documentary. So therefore, it was in his best interests to tell a story to push the sales of this thing.

The part where Vince supposedly got a black eye, again we've seen makeup used all the time in stuff like this. This is the TV business we're talking about, after all. And of course, the Camera Crew managed to get everything else on tape, except for conveniently the supposed confrontation between Bret and Vince. So in reality nobody really knows what happened if anything at all in the backstage area, except for those present.

People can come back and say that Vince sued the Production Company to try and block the release of the footage .... and I have heard that .... but as far as we've been told nothing ever came as a result of that supposed lawsuit. That could have simply been something WWE leaked to try and hype the sale of that documentary.

Now, why would the Parties involved do such a thing?

Why not? Bret, Vince, and even Shawn may have a little thing called pride in themselves as wrestlers in pulling off the biggest work in the history of the business. And something like this would unquestionably be something to really consider a trophy of your career ... in pulling off the biggest work in wrestling history. And I think those guys would all treasure that opportunity, and the preservation of kayfabe in order to protect that accomplishment.

So was Montreal all a work? I don't know. Only a few handful of individuals would know that. But yes, it is HIGHLY conceivable that the supposed Screwjob was indeed a very elaborate work designed to benefit ALL parties involved.

1) Bret got huge publicity and sympathy going into WCW.

2) Vince got tremendous Heel Heet which served as a lead in to his Mr. McMahon character.

3) DX got Heel Heat and formed Degeneration X

4) The Wrestling with Shadows documentary sold far more copies than if that wouldn't have happened

5) WWE had a lot of people talking and interest peaked in how Vince was going to respond with Bret leaving.

Everyone got publicity over it.

 

[futo25]

Now most people are speculating that what we will see is a closure to the situation revolving around that, and that has to make one wonder if by some slight of hand, by some chance, this was all a work. Think about it. Bret came back not too long ago to do the Hitman DVD deal with Vince too, as well as the Hall of Fame. Now would that have all went down if the whole Montreal incident was anything but a work??? Maybe, Maybe not.

Really look at it, and it seems like it had to be, it played out just like a wrestling storyline aside from the real life problems Bret has had meaning the Goldberg kick and his 2 strokes, followed by the death of pretty much his entire family. Those could all easily derail the plans that we are seeing unfold now, and maybe that is why it has taken 12 years. Maybe we are just now getting to where we might have been 9 years ago in the saga of Vince, Bret, Shawn, Triple H, and Montreal. The wrestling business is very secretive, and good at hiding them despite our best efforts to uncover them. It may not be the most likely of circumstances, but one could make a good case, and I think I have here. Now for your responses.

If Montreal Screwjob was a work, Bret Hart would've come back at Wrestlemania 22 in 2006! when he was inducted in the hall of fame.(and i am giving the year of 2006 because from your point of view where you say he couldn't come back until now because of Owen's death, Goldberg's kick and etc.....) and you are saying they got together during the summer of 2005 [thats when Vince and Bret had the "meeting" (to return 5 years later) shook hands for DVD]and planned "doing the dvd, teased his return on raw with the angle of HBK and Hogan at summerslam and not being part of it, attended the hall of fame and ditched Wrestlemania to finally come back 5 years later since the meeting for his dvd.
I would consider this being work if he made his return at Wrestlemania 22, but being part of hall of fame and then waiting 5 years.... no i personally dont think so. Anyway, i read Bret Hart's autobiography and i don't think most of the stuff in the book (or his life, because that book is telling his life story) was fake just for the sake of a 12 year stunt. Hulk Hogan might do something like this, but not the person like Bret Hart who i think has been through alot in his life.

ps- we are living in 2009, almost 2010 , the time of Internet, technology at its highest, the time kayfabe is dead mostly so the odds are not good for this "work" to be kept secret for a decade.

 

[bowlah]

No real shame in being worked IMO. Anyone can be fooled or misled by a skilled
actor or showman. The attitude era, in all 3 major companies, was a new paradigm in wrestling. The old form of kayfabe was done away with, and a newer form took its place to fit the modern world, in the form of "worked shoots" and screwjobs, etc. Once we knew all the old tricks and could no longer be as emotionally engaged, they just made up new tricks that DID captivate us all over again, such as Montreal. If you think about it, they only gave us what we were asking for as fans.

 

[Slam Master]

I really don't see Bret Hart writing the whole second half of his book based on a lie. I mean, he's old school kayfabe but thats a little overboard. It was a work in the sense that Vince, Shawn, HHH, Earl, and the production guys who ran the music and did the camera work knew what they were out to do. The only one who didn't know was Bret Hart.

I heard a good argument that it was a work and some of the points made sense: Bret got to leave by getting cheated out of the belt, in essence not really losing. Bret got his fat contract and was allowed to breach his WWF deal to get it, Shawn got the belt, the WWF got the boost by the controversy it created and all of the stories that spawned from it, and Vince turned heel and became one of the best characters of that era. People forget that Vince allowed Bret to breach his contract to get the WCW deal again.

Its been 12 years, so I'm guessing the cat would have been out of the bag by now if it was worked by all parties. The cameras were there due to Bret's documentary, and the reason Bret didn't sue Vince for the creative control thing was because Bret broked Vince's jaw and he could have easily countered Bret by pressing charges. I thought how it caught the footage of Bret's wife chewing out HHH were pretty coinincidental, but Bret told them to leave when he punched out Vince. It was just really ironic that Bret was filming his documentary and the behind the scenes stuff during the most controversial time in his career and the biz.

 

[The Roid Rage]

First I want to thank you guys for responding so well to this topic. When I wrote it I knew it was controversial and that some heads may roll, but I thought there was some legitimate arguments to be made and I made them. Some of you made arguments that helped mine, and some of you voiced your objections. Now I am going to go through those objections and some of those responses to clarify some of the details, and answer some of the questions that a few of you raised against the possibility of the theory I laid out.

Nah. I don't think Bret Hart could live with such a huge lie for the last 12 years. I think DX and Vince probably could. But Bret Hart wouldn't be like that. Despite his quite big ego, he also loves his fans. He wouldn't lie to them for over a decade because he respects them and wouldn't want to lose them over a silly work.

This plays into part of my theory. It wouldn't be a lie if no one outside of the people involved knew the truth. Time is irrelevant as long as there is a stigma attached to the events discussed, you wouldn't let this become a big deal and then tell everyone it was a ruse. You let the mystique grow adding mystery and questions all over surrounding the situation.

Despite Bret Harts feelings towards his fans, I also doubt that he would pass by such a great work that would not only make him a martyr forcing sympathy and fan support his way, but solidify his place in the wrestling world forever and make him bigger than he ever was. The "Hitman" may be an honorable character and the character in most peoples minds would never do such a thing, but the man Bret Hart just might for more reasons than one. Going along with the screwjob wouldn't hurt his fans or his standing with them. The idea is that they never know the truth or that it was a work.

You can't compare the Shawn work to the Montreal Screwjob. All Shawn had to do was lie there for a few minutes, staying still. Bret Hart would've had to fake utmost rage on the night then fake utmost bitterness for the last 12 years. He's not that good an actor.

Why can't I? It was a wrestling work that intertwined real life events, was presented to us as real, and most people bought it.

You say "All Shawn had to do was lay in the ring for a few minutes" well that's one way to look at it. I could retort and say Shawn had the tougher role as he had to act like a guy knocked unconscious from a blow to the head and a previously sustained concussion. While all Bret had to do was act pissed off. As for the length of time involved that's not such a hard act to lead. All he had to do is act pissed off anytime the situation comes up, or act like it was a big deal and it still bothers him, no big acting involved. You see it goes both ways.

Besides that, for it being this big deal, Bret didn't really act all that pissed off. Go back and look, it almost seems forced, like he had to muster it up rather than go on his actual emotion. And then there is the deal where he is destroying the t.v.'s and announce table and stuff in a supposed fit of rage. It all seems too much like a wrestling story line. Why didn't anyone stop him? Why didn't anyone hold him accountable for the destroyed property? Because, it would have been another spot in another storyline, on another pay-per-view.

Well, yeah, cause they put make up over the black eye for the interview. It's pretty simple. Why would he put on a mock fake black eye if it was a work? I don't know of anyone who said "I didn't believe the Montreal Screwjob was real until I saw Vince with the black eye, that really swayed me!". I mean, come on, it's logic.

It's logic you say??? Well, I think you missed the real logic involved here. Let me reiterate what I was saying and answer your question. I said that the "Black Eye" on Vince McMahon looked like it was not a real black eye but more like make-up. You are saying that it looked like make-up because he really did have a black eye and they were trying to cover it up.

You then go on to ask why they would fake a black eye if it was a work, and act like it was the dumbest question to the truth ever and question my logic. There are a few problems with that though, and I'll explain them.

1. The fake black eye is for effect, to make it seem like it really was this physical ordeal behind scenes, that coincidentally was never witnessed by anyone or caught on film. Look at the tape, there's no swelling, there is no real damage. It just looks like someone put some make-up on him to bring the effect of a black eye. If it was in fact just make-up over a blackened eye you could see real swelling but there was none. This puts the validity and realism of the black eye into question.

2. In Bret Hart's book he talks about the whole deal quite a bit. When he mentions his run in with Vince after the match he says he hit Vince in the jaw knocking him out momentarily. If he hit him in the jaw than where did the black eye come from??? the LOGICAL answer would be that it was a fake. Unless Bret was lying in his book of course, but according to you he would never do that, so which is it?

Degenerated too fast? Have you seen wrestling with shadows? Or read Bret's biography. Bret had been leaving him for months. He's been talking about it with Vince for months. First Vince said they couldn't afford to keep Bret any longer then he said he's do anything to keep Bret... It was very long and winded. It was bound to end with something big and the Screwjob was that something.

Actually, I had just watched the Wrestling with Shadows documentary online as provided by Wrestlezone.com so yeah I've seen it, I saw it when it originally aired on t.v. with my dad as well. And, I've read the book cover to cover. I borrowed it from my local library as soon as it came out, and it took forever to get through, It was huge.

As for your recollection of the facts, you've got the time line backwards, and your added commentary was useless and added nothing to your argument.

At first Vince was pushing very hard for Bret to stay, and that is when he offered him the 20 year deal which Bret initially took. If YOU have seen the Wrestling with Shadows documentary or were around and watching wrestling at the time, they show that there was a big announcement on RAW where Bret confirmed that he would be staying with the WWF and at that time he did sign the 20 year deal, rejecting the offer from WCW. However after some odd months, I think it was about 9, That is when Vince came to Bret and asked if he could get the WCW contract back, and be let out of his end of the 20 year deal because he couldn't afford it at the time supposedly.

Now Bret offered to take less money then and take the difference down the road when it was more affordable for Vince, but since he didn't know if he was going to even be in business a month from then he couldn't guarantee money he wasn't sure he'd have which is just a smart business move. So, that is when Bret went back and asked Eric Bischoff if he could get his original deal back, and he did. Bret didn't really want to take the deal, in Wrestling with Shadows he even says he asked Vince to somehow convince him to stay, and that is verbatim what he said.

The issues didn't arise until shortly before the pay-per-view when they had to come to terms on how Bret would leave the company, and drop the title. This all took place over the course of maybe a week or two, which when compared to a relationship of 14 years or more is a short time for things to go so far south between them. It didn't make sense on either end which point to there being more to the story than we know.

That makes no sense. Why would Vince send Bret to WCW so he could win the war with WCW. Call me crazy, but that seems a little silly. Bret wasn't a major draw, but his departure to WCW was massive.

Here you go again trying to make me look stupid or something, or trying to prove something to everyone else by tearing down what I was saying. Let's get this one over with.

The way I laid it out makes sense, the way you comprehended it does not. I wasn't saying that Bret would help Vince win the wars by going to WCW. I said that maybe they agreed that Bret would go there and make his big pay day, then after the 3 year contract, come back to the WWE, and then help McMahon win the Monday Night Wars, which is very possible.

Also, to try and say that Bret wasn't a big draw at the time is even more revealing of you. It shows that your knowledge of that point in time is lacking, and choppy at best. Bret had The Hart Foundation which was the main group on Raw, He was the heavyweight Champion at the time, and it was before all this that he made Stone Cold a star, Why ??? Because he was the biggest draw at the time, and the focal point of the company. Why else would they use him to put over Stone Cold? Because he was the top guy. Apparently that doesn't count as being a big draw now?

If WCW had used him properly, he could've helped WCW win the war. Unless you're saying Vince actually controlled WCW's booking staff and made them book Bret badly.

What relevance does any of this have to the topic? None. Sure, if booked right Bret could have helped WCW, that was part of the reason they wanted him in WCW to begin with. But just a second ago you said he wasn't a big draw so which is it? Make up your mind? Then inferring that I was insinuating in any way that Vince somehow controlled the WCW booking staff is pure garbage, and one of the most atrocious misinterpretations of my verbiage I've ever seen.

So what if Bret only had 3 years on his contract in WCW? His body was still a mess by that point between his injuries and his knees, which were getting really bad. There's no way he would've been able to wrestle for much longer than the 3 years.

Yet he signed a 20 year contract with Vince to wrestle for him ??? Must have been in pretty bad shape then, or made the worst decision of his life. Then again, maybe what your saying just has no valid background and your just opposing to oppose? The years of wrestling may have been taking some toll on Bret, that is no question, but he was in great shape, and had planned on wrestling for quite a bit longer. He also wrestled some of his best matches at that point in his career, so I wouldn't say he was falling apart.

Plain and simple he wouldn't have signed a 20 year contract to wrestle for Vince McMahon unless both of them were sure he would be able to. When he went to WCW he was still wrestling at the top of his game, and showing no signs of slowing. Trust me, I was there, I watched it all, I lived it right along with him and millions of others my age that can plainly remember the Monday Night Wars. Bret was at the top of his game, and was running full steam ahead. WCW wouldn't have put such a vested interest in him if he didn't have so much to offer, or have given him the biggest contract in wrestling at the time if he was just this broke down guy who was falling apart.

If the whole Montreal incident was a work, Bret would've come back to WWE long ago. And for a whole lot more than a Hall of Fame place and a DVD. That doesn't mean anything. He did both of those things for his fans... And perhaps a little for the money.

Ahhh, you finally said something that might be true, but not your opening statement here. Just the fact that Bret did the DVD and Hall of Fame for his fans, and money. True, him doing those things means nothing more than that, but what I was getting at was an entirely different issue all together. Once again you just rip some irrelevant argument out of the air just to argue, and make no point, and end up sounding unintelligible in this argument.

You also showed once again that you hardly comprehended anything I said. I noted a number of reasons why Bret hadn't come back accept for those two instances. 1. The Goldberg kick that ended his career, 2. the fact that he had 2 strokes, 3. Owens death, 4. The deaths of Dave Smith, His father Stu, and his mother Helen, 5. other issues in his family revolving around the death of his brother, 6. the fact that his strokes left him unable to do much of anything let alone wrestle, he had to recover twice from violent strokes and learn how to do all the simple little things we take for granted over again. I don't know about you or anyone else but I think that would sideline you for ohhhh say about 12 years, from doing what you had planned to do long ago.

The wrestling business isn't that secretive. The amount of plans that have been spoiled by the internet are countless by this point. When WWE pulls off a surprise without it getting spoiled they're very lucky.

No, nowadays wrestling isn't as secretive due to the mass communication we have through the internet. This was done in 1997, and at that time the internet was just becoming a big household phenomenon. Sites like Wrestlezone where you could read all the spoilers, and get all the inside scoops on what was happening didn't exist for the most part. Even if they did, most people at the time didn't have internet in their homes. You mostly went to a library or used a school computer hooked up to the internet if they had it, but it wasn't like it is today.

As far as them being able to keep things secret today, they still do a great job. We have become better at speculation because we are familiar with the product, but outside of spoilers on the tapings and so on, we still don't know what is going to happen at the pay-per-views 99% of the time, so I wouldn't say they are exactly horrible at it now either. It would have been very easy to keep a work like that under wraps at that time.

But essentially, what you're saying is that Bret Hart lied in Wrestling with Shadows, lied in his Biography and just lied in day to day life to his fans and friends for the last 12 years?

Oh, your just now catching on??? About time. He didn't necessarily lie, we don't know for sure anyways. All he did according to what I was saying is perpetuate an idea that had more to it than he let on. That is not lying, that is sticking to the story, and maintaining kayfabe on this particular subject. If you were paying attention to what I was saying, you would understand why that was necessary to begin with. The original plans were derailed and so they had no choice. If they had let the cat out of the bag it would have ruined everything,. So yeah, he, Vince, Shawn, Hunter, and Hebner had to keep their mouths shut to maintain the story. That is not the same as blatantly lying, especially in these circumstances.

On another note, It's not like anyone ever wanted to believe anything than what is on the record anyways. Few have ever questioned it, and fewer will as you are showing right now.

Or maybe, maybe... Open your mind real wide now.... It wasn't a work

Awww, that's cute. Did you think that up all on your own? Looks like you really got me good there. How I marvel at your original writing, and intuitive quirkiness. Don't try to get into a battle of wits with me here. It will not end well for you. I simply presented a point of view from a different angle that raises questions about the truth behind one of the most controversial events in wrestling history, you don't have to try and make me out to be a dumb ass because you have nothing intelligent to say in opposition.

I feel U on this topic, however, I remember watching that Survivor Series as it happened & from my point of view, it seemed 2 intense 2 be a work, on top of that, Vince would be a damn fool 2 let someone give hime a shiner 4 the sake of ratings.

I heard this one a lot. Go back and read it again. My inference was that there was no black eye, it was make up. Secondly, I would never question what Vince McMahon will or will not do for ratings. This is the same guy that put a one legged man in the ring for ratings, and currently has a midget on t.v. every week doing idiotic things for ratings. I wouldn't put much of anything part that man.

I still would urge you to go back and watch that whole thing again. It seems put on, Bret's reaction wasn't like a wild man in a fit of rage, it seemed staged or like a forced reaction. Once again I point to his antics after the match where he writes WCW in the air, and starts destroying the announcers area and all that. He did those things but he didn't seem to have the emotion involved most people like to place on it, or say he projected.

bret would have returned way before this.

This was the most popular response, and it shows me that either a. very few of you actually read and comprehended what I wrote, or that you just went off the previous posts to your own, where nothing I said about that was mentioned, shame on you, lol.

I laid it all out earlier in this post and in my original post why Bret had not returned until this point in time. The reasons made perfect sense, and they run right along with the time line. The bottom line is that up until now there was little to no time for him to return, and at the times that he could have, there were issues in his personal life that took precedence.

Good post. If there were say, 1999 instead of 2009 then I'd certainly consider this to be a work. The wounds wound still be fresh and Shawn Michaels would have been out for about a year. But also you'd have to take into consideration that Bret WENT to WCW. Had he just sat out for a year or two then yes, a work it could have/would have been. But as time went on, it just seemed more like something that really occured than a 10-11 year plan that was hatched. I don't think Vince ever sat down and said "hey, let's run this story for a decade. Let's really bring in talent after talent, change our name, have goofy storylines, etc etc and THEN bring you back in 2010. Wouldn't happen. Not saying your theory is just incredibly bad, but it just isn't correct.

A halfway intelligent response, finally. But still, you missed what I was saying so you must be guilty of not reading my post and comprehending it, or just following the person ahead of you.

I never said that the plan was to drag all this out into a 12 year storyline. I actually said quite the opposite. I stated that what I figured may have happened was that since Bret's contract would only be a 3 year deal with WCW, the plan would have been for him to come back after that, and then they would continue the story from there. I noted that due to the Goldberg kick and then more things after it, that we were just getting the story now 9 years later than we were supposed to since the idea would have been for Bret to return after the WCW contract expired. So, on the contrary, my theory was air tight, your interpretation of it was the thing that was incorrect.

Like someone previously stated, it was more about Bret not liking Shawn than him not liking Vince and feeling Vince was supposed to be his friend and feeling betrayed, plus with Owen dying, that just broke Bret's back.

Ok I am listening, go on.

[QUOTE]Throw in the death and you got yourself 10 years of bad blood.

Well, there is my case made for me. Outside influences caused a shift in the time line, and it was obviously too late to come out and say "Oh it was all a work folks, you can forget about all that" They had to just stay mum about it until an appropriate time came that they could end the story.

But I think Bret, being the true man he is, put all that behind him a few years back at the HOF and decided ONE DAY he would return.

Very likely, but at that time he was in no kind of shape to return, and return in the fashion he would want to. Now it has been a few more years, he has recovered more physically , is more prepared mentally and emotionally, and it is time to put the kibosh on the whole thing.

I pose this question... if it was a work, then why would Hart blatantly say he was going to WCW on WWE programming?

Now this was a very very good question and once I look back and see who asked it I am going to green rep them for it.

The only logical thing I could think of to answer that though is that considering the magnitude of what we are talking about, that was done just to put an exclamation point on the whole thing. People would have found out very soon anyways so it's not like it actually would have hurt the WWE anyways. But it did make for a big scene at that moment so it's impact was not wasted as it is still something we look back on as a major moment in wrestling history. It was so controversial, it's more like why not at that point. It you were going to do it, you might as well make it as big as possible and that obviously left a lasting impression.

It's well known that Hart and McMahon had some well known animosity mainly due to Hart thinking he still had some life left, whereas Vince thought Hart was getting stale and the best thing to do was get the belt away from him.

Is it? Because at the time it was made to look like there was nothing but the best relationship between them, and that was why it was such a big deal. And if Vince was thinking Bret was getting stale and needed to relinquish the belt, than he had one hell of a funny way of showing it since he had Bret strapped up, and at center stage as the biggest heel in the company along side the Hart Foundation who was also sporting a lot of gold. If that's what you get for supposedly being stale and having a great deal of animosity between you and your boss, than I really need to get to that point so I can be as big as Bret Hart was, being stale with nothing left. I think this info you give is questionable at best.

It's a novel conspiracy idea and we all want it to be a work, but there's no way it can't be.

Excuse me ? "No way it can't be" don't you mean "No way it can be"??? Besides why can't it be? I raised enough reasonable doubt to question the truth of the matter, and others agree. So I would say that it most certainly could be. Why do you say this......

His brother was killed in a WWE ring in a mishap that more than likely shouldn't have happened in the first place. Before Owen's death, I may entertain the idea the screwjob was a work, but not after what happened with Owen. There was some legit tensions with McMahon and Hart. Trust me, neither of these folks are good actors.

Ohhh, so your saying that because of Owens' death this couldn't be a work??? But what does that have to do with it outside of the parameters I laid out. It most definitely may have delayed the comeback that was supposed to be, but has no bearing on the event we are discussing as it occurred long before Owens death.

Now, there may have been some legit tension between McMahon and Bret due to the fact that it was on the WWE's clock that Owen died, and that it happened because he was going to do a stunt playing a character he found to be humiliating, but that still has nothing to do with the Montreal Screwjob, or the idea of it being a big work. No acting was needed for the seriousness of Owens death either. I would have to believe that business would take a back seat in that scenario anyways.

After a superb debate with LORDSIDIOUS (the one about the house shows being a rip-off for the fans), a debate which I felt THE GAME RAGE won, I felt, with all due respect, that this, while a well written and thought-out post, was a little bit of a silly concept. The Montreal Screw Job being a work would be right up there with Elvis or Michael Jackson still being alive, or the JFK conspiracy.

Exactly, which is why it is such a compelling thought to entertain!!! The concept may be a little silly I'll give you that, but you can't say there is no validity to it, or that there is no way possible for it to hold any truth, which is really the silly part, not me presenting it. And you are right, it would be waaay up there in conspiracy theory, which is why it is such a big deal to begin with. To entertain the notion that it really was a work is beyond out normal comprehension because we have already accepted what has been given to us as fact, but nonetheless that does not prove that in no way, shape, or form could what I'm suggesting be somewhat true. Thanks for the compliment on that debate as well.

Sure, there is an element of logic in the post, and it is well written and thought out, but it's inconceivable to me a that a work of this magnitude could be perpetuated for so long. And if it were to have been accomplished against all odds, what would there be to gain by revealing this kayfabe now, 12 years later.

Another good question. What indeed would there be to gain by revealing this kayfabe now? Nothing, that's the thing. If it is, it's not like we're going to know for sure any time soon. They would just continue where they left off, and then there would be quite a great deal to gain as they would be finishing off one of the biggest stories in wrestling history, giving it it's end and putting it to rest once and for all in this comeback of Bret Hart. They would be finishing what was started years ago catching the attention off the whole wrestling world and putting them on notice. Tell me it wouldn't draw bigger than anything to date?

As far as the whole secret being perpetuated for this long, I don't think that is as difficult a task as you and others make it out to be. I heard this one a lot, but still I have to argue that if it was only between Bret, Vince, Shawn, Hunter, and Hebner that it wouldn't be that hard a secret to keep, especially as the time went on and on and it became more and more a past event. The more time that passes, the more people accept what has been given to them as fact in this case. No one has really questioned it, so no one has had to really defend it. That means all they do is keep it in the back of their minds, never say anything, and no one is none the wiser, simple as that.

In the surreal world of professional wrestling, the work could not have been sustained for so long without someone letting it slip. As stated by many, Owen's death contributed greatly to the animosity between Vince and Bret, and I think such animosity would have counteracted the ability to sustain a work of this nature.

Read the above noted. I think it would have been quite easy to keep this thing under wraps. Owens death would have in fact I think made it easier to keep quiet as the whole Montreal issue would have and did take a back seat to the real issue of Owen dying in the fashion he did.

It wasn't a work. And the reason Vince's black eye looked like make up is because it WAS make up.

And if it was a work, EVERYONE would have known about it by now.

Ok, back to the same thing, the issue of time, and the black eye.

True, you would think that by now people would have figured it out if the whole thing was a work, but as I mentioned in my first post, bigger secrets have been kept for longer amounts of time. Need I remind you again that it was kept secret for decades that wrestling was fake? That would be a lot harder of a secret to sustain than the facts behind one isolated incident.

Going back to the black eye, you said yourself right there it was make-up. So are you suggesting that it was a real black eye covered up, or a fake one put on? You don't make it clear as to what you are defending and refuting. If you are suggesting that it was a real black eye I must point again to my argument that there was no swelling, no one actually saw it happen, and Bret himself states in his book that he hit Vince IN THE JAW, NOT THE EYE. So that could really be a mistake on the part of the WWE, and more proof pointing to the whole thing being in fact, a work.

If Montreal Screwjob was a work, Bret Hart would've come back at Wrestlemania 22 in 2006! when he was inducted in the hall of fame.

How do you figure? Because he had anything to do with the company at the time? That doesn't mean anything except that he was willing to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Also, at the time he wasn't physically healthy enough to return in the capacity he wanted to anyways. He did the DVD, and the Hall of Fame because Money Talks and Bullshit Walks. That's that. If anything I would think that it points more in the direction of the whole thing being a work because if there really was this great amount of animosity between Bret, Vince, Shawn, Hunter and the WWE in general, than he more than likely wouldn't have even accepted that, and continued to have nothing to do with them, but he did.

I would consider this being work if he made his return at Wrestlemania 22, but being part of hall of fame and then waiting 5 years.... no i personally dont think so.

Ahh, but your missing the points made. It has taken this long due to his health than anything else. That is a solid and valid argument that you can't debate. He-was-not-in-the-mental-or-physical-condition-to-come-back-in-the-capacity-he-would-want-to-hence-he-did-not. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself for the room to hear me clearly.

Anyway, i read Bret Hart's autobiography and i don't think most of the stuff in the book (or his life, because that book is telling his life story) was fake just for the sake of a 12 year stunt. Hulk Hogan might do something like this, but not the person like Bret Hart who i think has been through alot in his life.

[/QUOTE]

Ok you read his book, what else???.....He wouldn't lie, ok???? Anything relevant???? He wouldn't lie for the sake of a stunt. OK? And you know this how??? If it was the biggest thing in your career, and you kept it a secret this long, than WHY IN GODS NAME WOULD YOU EVER REVEAL IT AS ANYTHING ELSE !!!!??? That would almost ruin your legacy, which is why we will never know. All we can do is look at it, conspire, come to our own conclusions, and take it at that for the most part.

I have presented a logical argument raising question to the truth surrounding the whole thing, is that the gospel truth? No, but it is possible, and the more you think about it, more and more likely. Putting Bret on this pedestal where you have convinced yourself he would never lie about such a thing is where you are getting lost in the whole thing. He is a great guy for the most part, but not infallible, and definitely not above lying to any degree.

ps- we are living in 2009, almost 2010 , the time of Internet, technology at its highest, the time kayfabe is dead mostly so the odds are not good for this "work" to be kept secret for a decade.

Oh, Big Shot there smart ass!!! As I mentioned earlier, that is of no relevance to this matter. The internet wasn't even a fraction of the factor back then as it is now. And, due to the fact that it would only be between a select few people it is MORE likely that is would be kept secret despite the advances in information technology that allow us to better determine the outcomes of todays events, which by the way, they still keep largely secret.

I really don't see Bret Hart writing the whole second half of his book based on a lie. I mean, he's old school kayfabe but thats a little overboard.

Why not? His whole career is technically a lie. It's not like he really won those titles or triumphed as good over evil or anything like that, it's predetermined. So why not write about the most compelling incident to the crowd in your life. This only perpetuates the story, and keeps it fresh in peoples minds for the day that they do put an end to it.

It may seem overboard, but wasn't the whole scenario? So why are we now ruling out any possibilities. If I would have told you the night before the Montreal Screwjob, that the screwjob and what followed shortly thereafter was going to happen, you wouldn't have believed me, and that would have been as far out and overboard a statement as anything. So what is so overboard about adding to the mystery?

I heard a good argument that it was a work and some of the points made sense: Bret got to leave by getting cheated out of the belt, in essence not really losing. Bret got his fat contract and was allowed to breach his WWF deal to get it,

Small correction, it was Vince who was allowed to breach part of the contract not Bret as Vince was the one who wanted out of it at that point due to his financial situation and inability to guarantee Bret the money in the contract long term.

Its been 12 years, so I'm guessing the cat would have been out of the bag by now if it was worked by all parties.

Same argument again, told you it was a popular response, but it was anticipated as well. I've responded and answered a number of times now. If you want to, go back and read everything else I have explained about that one.

The cameras were there due to Bret's documentary, and the reason Bret didn't sue Vince for the creative control thing was because Bret broked Vince's jaw and he could have easily countered Bret by pressing charges. I thought how it caught the footage of Bret's wife chewing out HHH were pretty coinincidental, but Bret told them to leave when he punched out Vince. It was just really ironic that Bret was filming his documentary and the behind the scenes stuff during the most controversial time in his career and the biz.

Good points to a degree, but still, how convenient is it that all of that happened to align just right??? A little too convenient if you ask me. The documentary, both legal ends, the footage of Julie accusing the HHH and the others, and of course the punch that no one seems to have seen being the one thing that wasn't on film??? Hmmmm, seems a little too good to be true, and when that is the case they say, generally it is too good to be true.


Well, that was all the arguments and questions I had to answer. I still think that my analysis was right on if it had any truth to it, and that no matter what, at least now some of you have questions regarding it. I look forward to any further responses or arguments anyone would like to raise. Obviously there is much to be said of the entire scenario, and I would like to hear more of your input on the situation and hypothesized truth.

 

[klunderbunker]

These threads come up every now and then and every time they come up I want to hit myself very hard to make the agony of reading such nonsense go away. Let's think about this for a moment. We have two principal actors here: Vince and Bret. Beginning with Bret.

Bret was clearly being passed by in wrestling and WCW was dominating to say the least. I know that Bret was loyal to the WWF, but he was also logical. Vince was on the verge of bankruptcy more than once and it was very possible that Bret would be without a paycheck. WCW at the time really was the safe place to be and they were more based on old school wrestling that Vince was at the time. It made perfect sense for him to consider leaving and that's what he did.

Second, if you've ever heard Bret's interviews, he's about as self absorbed as humanly possible. The man isn't humble in the least, and while he's a legend in Canada, he's not as big there as he thinks he is. That being said, he's the type of guy that wouldn't want to drop the belt to a guy he had legit issues with in his home country. It's Bret Hart, the man whose ego could rival that of Hogan's. that's saying a lot.

Now we have Vince McMahon. the idea that he could keep an angle for this long stuns me. The man can't keep a story straight for ten weeks let alone ten years, yet he could keep the Montreal story a secret this long? You have got to be freaking kidding me. the guy has rewritten every piece of history ever yet he's willing to let Bret trash both him and his company for a payoff that he might not be in business to see ten years later while WCW is crushing him? Tell me how that makes anything resembling sense. I'm looking forward to this.

It wasn't a work, period. It would make no sense to be one and it would have come out by now. These theories amuse me greatly as they couldn't be more off base.

 

[futo25]

How do you figure? Because he had anything to do with the company at the time? That doesn't mean anything except that he was willing to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Also, at the time he wasn't physically healthy enough to return in the capacity he wanted to anyways. He did the DVD, and the Hall of Fame because Money Talks and Bullshit Walks. That's that. If anything I would think that it points more in the direction of the whole thing being a work because if there really was this great amount of animosity between Bret, Vince, Shawn, Hunter and the WWE in general, than he more than likely wouldn't have even accepted that, and continued to have nothing to do with them, but he did.

and you are saying at the time he wasn't physically healthy to return in the capacity he wanted to anyways, because you are close to Bret Hart? or you talked to him? or you have his doctor's report? i wasn't talking about the year 2000, i said the year 2006! the year he was inducted into hall of fame. I saw him on television, he looked pretty healthy to me, and he said "he was ok, don't worry about me anymore" to his fans. I mean Bret Hart hasn't returned yet, we don't know if he is even going to wrestle so i don't think there is much of a difference between guest hosting raw and giving a speech at the hall of fame. i still stick to my point that if it was a work, he would've come back around the time in 2006 when he was inducted at the hall of fame (when he looked pretty healthy to me, and in an interview before the hall of fame he stated he was healthy)

 

[futo25]

"He did the DVD, and the Hall of Fame because Money Talks and Bullshit Walks. That's that....
If he cared about money so much he wouldn't try staying with WWE at the time of Montreal Screwjob, he said he was a company man he wanted to stay with WWE, he wanted to retire in WWE and also he would lose in Canada against Shawn Michaels instead of going to through with all the BS and complicate his life. But he didn't because he doesnt give shit about money that much like he gives a shit about his name, his image, his legacy...... so i think Bret Hart (is no Hulk Hogan) and cares about his legacy and name more than money and he did the DVD to leave something behind.

 

[The Roid Rage]

These threads come up every now and then and every time they come up I want to hit myself very hard to make the agony of reading such nonsense go away

Well it's the first one I've seen, I happened to start it, and judging from the views and responses no one else has ever really seen a thread like this either, so your just some kind of anomaly or something it seems. If it's nonsense that bothers you perhaps you should keep it out of your own mouth. Let's take a look at your bright examples. And please don't stop hitting yourself.

Bret was clearly being passed by in wrestling and WCW was dominating to say the least

Yeah, and a clear example of that was him being the centerpiece of the WWE with the Hart Foundation, and him holding the world title, not to mention having some of the biggest matches in company history with Shawn Michaels and Stone Cold, gotcha! WCW didn't use him to his capacity that's true but was he not apart of the NWO, 2 time World Heavyweight Champion, and 4 time U.S. title holder??? I guess that counts as the parade just passing you by now days for some reason???

I know that Bret was loyal to the WWF, but he was also logical. Vince was on the verge of bankruptcy more than once and it was very possible that Bret would be without a paycheck. WCW at the time really was the safe place to be and they were more based on old school wrestling that Vince was at the time. It made perfect sense for him to consider leaving and that's what he did.

Wow, funny how no one but you was saying anything about that, and none of that was really in question. Thanks for your insightful addition to the thread.

Second, if you've ever heard Bret's interviews, he's about as self absorbed as humanly possible. The man isn't humble in the least, and while he's a legend in Canada, he's not as big there as he thinks he is. That being said, he's the type of guy that wouldn't want to drop the belt to a guy he had legit issues with in his home country. It's Bret Hart, the man whose ego could rival that of Hogan's. that's saying a lot.

Uhhhh ok, wow. What the hell does that have to do with anything being talked about here? Ok, some folks tried to make Bret out to be a saint, but what relevance does anything you said have to the conversation outside of that. And, if that was what you were addressing why didn't you clarify it ???

the idea that he could keep an angle for this long stuns me. The man can't keep a story straight for ten weeks let alone ten years, yet he could keep the Montreal story a secret this long?

Well, I tried to make the points as clear as possible but it's obvious you didn't pay very close attention to those. One of the many points was that it wouldn't have to be kept straight, they'd just leave it be, and when Bret came back in 3 not 10 years they could use that feud to beat WCW and Ted Turner in the Monday Night Wars.

You have got to be freaking kidding me. the guy has rewritten every piece of history ever yet he's willing to let Bret trash both him and his company

No, I'm not freaking kidding you !!! Where does him revising history of anything have to do with this ??? We are talking about the possibility of the history that IS written being a work, so what purpose does mentioning that serve???? Nothing? Oh ok, I got it. Sorry, my bad!

oh and Yes, Vince will allow anything that will end in a payoff for him. And it isn't trashing his company to him if it is something that garners ratings, money, or any kind of publicity good or bad so I am not sure where you came up with that. Are you talking about Bret's commentary outside of the company??? OH, that! Well, if your going to carry a story like that as hypothesized in the thread, and make it real your probably going to have this guy showing a dislike for the company to maintain the feud.

Also, the stuff he said was based on personal opinion of the companies direction and the overall product. Mostly in reference to the more raunchy stuff that was put on the air, as well as some of the more controversial material dealing with social issues. That has nothing to do with Vince or his approval and Bret knew that. He could say whatever he wanted, especially after leaving the company.

for a payoff that he might not be in business to see ten years later while WCW is crushing him? Tell me how that makes anything resembling sense. I'm looking forward to this.

I'm glad you were looking forward to this because as soon as I read your post I couldn't have been looking forward to it anymore either.

The payoff as I explained would have come directly after the WCW contract expired, check your information next time. Math will do you some justice in this one too because we were talking about 3 years not 10. Also, part of the reason Bret was leaving as we have already established was due to the financial strain his contract was or would be putting on the company in it's trying time. The only loophole is "How was Vince to know he would be in business in 3 years to capitalize on the Feud" which is a good question, but you know what? It is irrelevant because he did stay in business, and had that been the plan it would have worked out anyways.

They would have just had to go on the assumption that the WWF was going to be around, but I bet I can give you a few good hints as to why Vince would have figured he was going to be in business to capitalize on the Montreal incident as I laid it out. 1. Shawn Michaels, 2. Stone Cold Steve Austin, 3. Degeneration-X, 4. The mishandling of superstars in WCW dating back well before the Monday Night Wars, 5. A guy who was coming down the pike named The Rock, 6. Triple H, 7. The Undertaker, 8. Mankind, you want me to keep going ????

So, is any of that enough sense for you ??? Or maybe some of the well thought out explanations I gave in the opening and previous post to this one? Everyone else seems to get it but you. So, could it be everyone else, or just you trying to act like some autocratic, contemptuous, virtuoso. I know where my money goes on this one.

 

[The Roid Rage]

Oh, I missed the joker before Klunderbunker so I guess I'll get to him since I dealt with one, now to the other.

and you are saying at the time he wasn't physically healthy to return in the capacity he wanted to anyways, because you are close to Bret Hart? or you talked to him? or you have his doctor's report? i wasn't talking about the year 2000, i said the year 2006! the year he was inducted into hall of fame. I saw him on television, he looked pretty healthy to me, and he said "he was ok, don't worry about me anymore" to his fans.

Look, this is a futile effort your making here. You just need to read his book. At that point in time it just wasn't going to happen. Like I said, mentally, physically, and more importantly emotionally he was not ready to do any of that. I never said that you were talking about 2000. I was very clear about addressing the 2006 comments as they were quoted and responded to. If Bret looked good to you in 2006 than you were on acid or something, because he looked horrible. He was still in recovery from his 2nd stroke or just out of recovery from his 2nd stroke. Like I said READ HIS BOOK.

If he cared about money so much he wouldn't try staying with WWE at the time of Montreal Screwjob, he said he was a company man he wanted to stay with WWE, he wanted to retire in WWE

First of all he was leaving the company which is why the Montreal thing even happened and secondly it was all about money. Sure, he was willing to take less and stay, but the issue didn't even come about until he had this offer for $9.0 mill. on the table and was heavily considering it. Out of loyalty yes he stayed, signed the 20 year deal with Vince, and that was that. However since I have to give a history lesson every time one of you makes a stupid fucking argument, Vince asked to be let out of the contract some time later, and suggested Bret see if he could get the original WCW deal he had been offered. Why? Because Vince wasn't sure he could afford his contract at the time or in the future, plain and simple.

and also he would lose in Canada against Shawn Michaels instead of going to through with all the BS and complicate his life.

Really? Do you have a clue what the fuck you are talking about!!!??? Because Bret has openly and honestly stated before that he refused to drop the belt to Shawn Michaels, that is common knowledge, and that least of all would he drop the title in Canada to Shawn Michaels. Seriously, this is the type of shit that just pissed me off. You come and act like you have so noble defense, or like your going to really get me good with something, and then come out with shit!!! Seriously, make it a challenge sometimes. Either come correct, or don't come at all, that goes for everybody including myself.

But he didn't because he doesnt give shit about money that much like he gives a shit about his name, his image, his legacy...... so i think Bret Hart (is no Hulk Hogan) and cares about his legacy and name more than money and he did the DVD to leave something behind.

Well, isn't that special. I'm only disappointed that is what you think. Can anyone else even put that together to make sense??? What the fuck were you even trying to say??? Yeah, he did the DVD because it served his own interest as well as the Hall of Fame. All that other stuff you said is window dressing on his image.

i still stick to my point that if it was a work, he would've come back around the time in 2006 when he was inducted at the hall of fame (when he looked pretty healthy to me, and in an interview before the hall of fame he stated he was healthy)

Stick to your point all you want, it doesn't matter. I explained everything in full detail. It has been made dreadfully obvious that you do not have as much insight to the scenario as almost everyone else, and your argument is futile because I was talking about a theory to begin with!!! I explained it, I supported it, I laid it out in a way that would make the whole thing make some kind of sense and fit into what he did do, not what he might have done. As for the questions about his health, sure, he said he was healthy, but that doesn't mean "Have a match" health or "Go back to the WWE is some kind of full time capacity for any length of time" healthy. It means he's not dying on a hospital bed, stroking out from falling off a bike, or trying to re learn how to walk, eat, hold a newspaper, so on and so on.

And now, I rest. Thank God!

 

[futo25]

Also i forgot to mention, the 15th anniversary of Monday Night Raw which aired on December 10th, 2007. If Montreal Screwjob was a "work" he would've been part of that show. Actually (courtesy of wrestlezone) WWE/Vince McMahon tried really hard to get him on that show, creative and Vince McMahon pitched the idea of Bret Hart returning and applying his finisher (sharpshooter) on Vince which would close the show that night. But Bret Hart denied the offer, just like he refused appearing and ditched Wrestlemania 22 (not for wrestling) just to appear among his other hall of famer friends.

ps- when i said why would he ditch Wrestlemania 22 if it was a "work" before i meant how hall of famers appear at Wrestlemania nowadays. If you remember at Wrestlemania 22 the hall of famers appeared on the show but the announcer said "Bret Hart did not feel comfortable appearing on a WWE televison/Wrestlemania"

 

[gully side adidja]

it might be a work,what better way to make a huge history making story by having your biggest star at the time,being screwed over by the owner of the company,in one of the biggest matches in the company,in his own home town,against his greatest enemy,on his last day at the company,why not, vince knows he has loyal people who won't talk,what better way to draw more interest in the company than that, look at some notable stuff, i mean owen still stayed after that (im sure wcw could have signed him to, they signed bulldog and neidhart and owen was a bigger name than those two) ,bret's wcw adventure was a dissapointment, and vince gained massive heat from that and became one of the greatest heels in the company from it, so i say it was/is a possibility.

 

[BrucePettit]

It was a work, the only one not in on it was Bret Hart and the majority of the locker room

Which is exactly what a work is. There is no definition of a work, and not everyone involved in the company needs to know. Bret Hart didn't need to know the details, he could have just known that he wasn't going to be pinned cleanly.

I'm not saying I agree with The Game Rage, but when it comes to making your points, for the most part, The Game Rage > Most of you.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

This is a case were the shoe fits, but its the wrong shoe. Or, uh, something.

If it eventually came out that it WAS set up, I wouldnt be the least bit suprised. There was just such a ton of things that ended up being in the right places at the right time, and a lot of money has ended up being made from this. Remember, DX picked up steam from this, the Mr.Mcmahon character was born of this (the biggest heel of the attitude era, if we are being honest) Bret Harts DVD and book, not to mention this WM angle they are currently working. Its tough for me to belive something could be kept under wraps for this long if it WERE a work though.

As I said before, I dont think it IS necessarily, but if it were, i wouldnt be shocked.

 

[Beach91]

Hi Guys, My first post on here so take it easy on me but I do believe Game of Rage is definitely on to something and it would not surprise me at all if this was a work.

As NorCal said in his post, look how everyone profited from the Screwjob, Vince became a top heel, DX became believable as a huge heel faction instead of a joke, Shawn Michaels came to the forefront as a more main event status heel, and it definitely helped Brets future book and documentary sales.

I always found it far too convenient for all this to go down during Bret's documentary. the popularity of the documentary skyrocketed due to the Screwjob

Everyone seems to argue timeline and those involved not being able to keep a secret. If you think about Bret though and how much he loves the business, wouldnt this be the ultimate. I think if this were a work, he would enjoy have pulled the wools over everyones eyes for so long, kinda like his father Stu, he would gain a sick sense of enjoyment from making the ultimate angle. Brets always hated people making fun of the business and stating its fake, what if his ultimate goal all those years ago was to come up with an angle which played so close to the lines of reality that the fans could never tell if it were real, or a work? Also if you think about it, Brets character was saved by the screwjob as most fans never viewed him as losing, which is what Bret wanted alll along. The match outcome, whether it be work or shoot, totally took away the focus from the actual match and the storyline and raised it to a higher level.

Looking at Vinces side, look at all the publicity it garnered, he became the co. top heel. His motivation for doing this, either way if it were a work or shoot, would be money. He says its right for the business, and it is, but there are a million ways they couldve taken the title off of Hart without even involving Michaels that much. Maybe a three way match were another wrestler is pinned to lose the title, maybe having Hart lose it earlier at a house show etc.

But what would be the most profitable and create the most controversy=cash? A screwjob. How could it be a work? Quite simply, Hebner, Hart, michaels, HHH and McMahon could have all hatched the idea several months before the documentary, maybe Bret had already planned to leave with WCWs first offer, they figured out the screwjob then and all that contract stuff of Hart and McMahon going back and forth was madeup to sell the entire angle and sell the documentary. It would be pure genius.
Only problem is the amount of people involved and how could they keep a secret for a long time?

If it were a work, how I believe it to have played out would be a tad different. I believe all the contract stuff did happen leading up to the point were they are all sitting down to work on the finish of the match. They all agree on the DQ or whatever so Hart will retain the belt in Montreal, and then give it up on Raw. Bret leaves. McMahon, Michaels, hebner and HHH all work out the Screwjob finish. Therefore Hebner, michaels and HHH think they have set Bret in place to be screwed but what they dont know is that McMahon and Hart have had secret meetings beforehand and Brets already agreed to a Wendi Richter type screwjob, with bret even suggesting he lose to his own Move to make the ending more Controversial.

McMahon calls Hart late at nite after his meeting with the other guys telling him everythings set and get ready for tomorrow to unleash the biggest work ever upon the wrestling world. That way, only McMahon and Hart are in on the work. I could see HHH and HBK being in on it too, but i dont trust Hebner, if he were in on it the whole thing would have been given up long ago by Hebner

One thing though, for this to be the ultimate work what about the backstage punch? It could be part of the work as has been suggested, and the black eye did look to be a "makeup" creation in the WWE interviews.

However, werent Davey Boy and Rick Rude in the closed door lockerroom when it happened? This is the side of the story I have missed out on, and wish Rude was around today, if he could have written a book it would be golden. Didnt he call Bishcoff the nite it happened to tell him that this was not a work but was real?

Anyhow there goes my long theories on what or may not be a shoot. Either way, its 12-13 years later and we still talk about it, and even though everyones versions are out there, we may never know exactly what happened. Its the ultimate wrestling angle, Now that everyone is talking again, why not create a WWE DVD with all the guys sitting around a table answering questions on it- it would make a tonne of cash, but would everyones stories be straigtened out by then?

sorry guys for the long first post, I wish I had all the answers to this one