Week 6: Phoenix -versus- Thriller
- Thread starter Mr. TM
- Start date
Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
I will say no, Sting should not go the the E, and Phoenix, you may go first.
Thank you, Thriller. Looking forward to a greta debate ahead!
Now when it comes to the debate of whether Sting (Steve Borden) should sign with the WWE, I will be arguing why he should.
Sting has wrestled for over 24 years, spanning tenures with UWF, NWA, WCW, WWA and TNA, he is currently known for being one of the most popular wrestlers never to have wrestled under the WWE banner, but despite talks of retirement looming soon, it is my responsibility to state why we should support the idea of him being in the WWE to see out his career.
To start with, Sting no doubt is marketable, and despite being 50 years old, he is a man who still has a strong following. He could be tied in with WCW's past and WWE can promote him as the last WCW icon to be brought in. Even if he ran a year there, WWE would surely give him a schedule that works best to him and give him an acceptable run of feuds, he might be past his prime abit for having a title run, but you could probably see him getting crowned during the run to give an iconic moment in wrestling history. If he did, he would be the only man in history to win the NWA, WCW, TNA & WWE World Titles, a feat no other wrestler has done and imagine how much that would boost to WWE and to Sting himself, everyone would pay to see an iconic moment like this with Sting and it's for his own benefit.
But it's not even the title possibilities, it's the feuds as well. The one ultimate feud that people have always wanted to see (despite it being more affective around 1997) is Undertaker vs. Sting, everyone on the forums talks about it being a moment that people want to see while they're still active. The irony is that these two old timers can still put on a great match and the chemistry would be wild alone. The other additional match people want is him vs. HBK, much like how him feuding with Taker is, this is highly marketable and just as proven as Wrestlemania 25, if Undertaker can put a great match, so can HBK. What's more important is HBK would play a role in looking after Sting, they're both re-born Christians and have had screen time outside of wrestling together, HBK would know how important Sting is and how important is it that is he looked after, which means Sting would have some political power over how he's booked.
Furthermore, the other iconic moment is Sting's last ever match, now without being harsh to TNA, WWE would give him a great send off. Because alot of audiences are not aware of TNA, Sting will get a send off through his followers, but for many, getting a send off in WWE means everyone can truly pay their respects and thanks to Sting, even if he was there for only a year, he would get a Ric Flair type of send off, and probably get a HOF induction at the same time, so thoroughly Sting would get recognised for his actions. WWE are even doing it right now through the Rise and Fall of WCW DVD where Sting plays a role in the archives. and he's not badmouthed in it compared to other members of TNA that use to be there.
So to summarise for the opening of this debate. Sting should sign with the WWE because he would be used as best to what Sting wants, there's a high number of high profile matches he can do and this would bring in PPV figures. He would be secured with HBK's backing and he would have control over how his character is used, not to mention he would receive a big pay off, especially if he has history making moments that only he can do, it's too tempting not to resist.
Your turn Mr. Thriller. There will be more from me to follow after your post.
Now when it comes to the debate of whether Sting (Steve Borden) should sign with the WWE, I will be arguing why he should.
Sting has wrestled for over 24 years, spanning tenures with UWF, NWA, WCW, WWA and TNA, he is currently known for being one of the most popular wrestlers never to have wrestled under the WWE banner, but despite talks of retirement looming soon, it is my responsibility to state why we should support the idea of him being in the WWE to see out his career.
To start with, Sting no doubt is marketable, and despite being 50 years old, he is a man who still has a strong following. He could be tied in with WCW's past and WWE can promote him as the last WCW icon to be brought in. Even if he ran a year there, WWE would surely give him a schedule that works best to him and give him an acceptable run of feuds, he might be past his prime abit for having a title run, but you could probably see him getting crowned during the run to give an iconic moment in wrestling history. If he did, he would be the only man in history to win the NWA, WCW, TNA & WWE World Titles, a feat no other wrestler has done and imagine how much that would boost to WWE and to Sting himself, everyone would pay to see an iconic moment like this with Sting and it's for his own benefit.
But it's not even the title possibilities, it's the feuds as well. The one ultimate feud that people have always wanted to see (despite it being more affective around 1997) is Undertaker vs. Sting, everyone on the forums talks about it being a moment that people want to see while they're still active. The irony is that these two old timers can still put on a great match and the chemistry would be wild alone. The other additional match people want is him vs. HBK, much like how him feuding with Taker is, this is highly marketable and just as proven as Wrestlemania 25, if Undertaker can put a great match, so can HBK. What's more important is HBK would play a role in looking after Sting, they're both re-born Christians and have had screen time outside of wrestling together, HBK would know how important Sting is and how important is it that is he looked after, which means Sting would have some political power over how he's booked.
Furthermore, the other iconic moment is Sting's last ever match, now without being harsh to TNA, WWE would give him a great send off. Because alot of audiences are not aware of TNA, Sting will get a send off through his followers, but for many, getting a send off in WWE means everyone can truly pay their respects and thanks to Sting, even if he was there for only a year, he would get a Ric Flair type of send off, and probably get a HOF induction at the same time, so thoroughly Sting would get recognised for his actions. WWE are even doing it right now through the Rise and Fall of WCW DVD where Sting plays a role in the archives. and he's not badmouthed in it compared to other members of TNA that use to be there.
So to summarise for the opening of this debate. Sting should sign with the WWE because he would be used as best to what Sting wants, there's a high number of high profile matches he can do and this would bring in PPV figures. He would be secured with HBK's backing and he would have control over how his character is used, not to mention he would receive a big pay off, especially if he has history making moments that only he can do, it's too tempting not to resist.
Your turn Mr. Thriller. There will be more from me to follow after your post.
Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
Sting should never go to the WWE, because a huge portion of his legacy would be ruined if he did.
Steve Borden proved that you could be successful without Vince McMahon's marketing machine. He is a 13 time world champion, and was a top face in a time when the WWE/F was actually behind another company in ratings during the post-regional period. Just about every other major star that didn't come from the WWE/F has been "McMahon'd" in some way. Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Steve Austin, etc. all began somewhere else before Vince brought them in and made them the legends they are today.
Sting gives hope to guys who can't or don't want to join the WWE. He has proven that wrestlers can be bigger than companies, and there is no reason for him to tarnish that by going to the E.
Steve Borden proved that you could be successful without Vince McMahon's marketing machine. He is a 13 time world champion, and was a top face in a time when the WWE/F was actually behind another company in ratings during the post-regional period. Just about every other major star that didn't come from the WWE/F has been "McMahon'd" in some way. Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Steve Austin, etc. all began somewhere else before Vince brought them in and made them the legends they are today.
Sting gives hope to guys who can't or don't want to join the WWE. He has proven that wrestlers can be bigger than companies, and there is no reason for him to tarnish that by going to the E.
While I respect your point Thriller, isn't Steve Borden already ruining his legacy by still going in TNA? His WCW legacy would have been unscathed had he stepped down once the company folded, but it's been questioned that his run in TNA is hurting his own legacy. Lots of people question his most recent title run and they felt it was damaging to the company. While he's faced off against the likes of Hogan, Bret, Goldberg, he had beaten the likes of Kurt Angle, AJ Styles and lost his title to Mick Foley, surely the last is tarnishing his career given that Foley hasn't wrestled full time in nearly 9 years!
With the point of you mentioing the manner of top stars being "McMahoned". Here are the successes of the top WCW stars who have ended in or returning to the WWE.
The first example is Booker T. Alongside DDP, he was the only top member of WCW that came to the WWE during the Invasion angle, now while he was rushed into the Main Event and World Title scene at WCW. WWE rebuilt him to give him all the credentials to be a solid all round wrestler going from each division and becoming the first African American wrestler to hold the World Title. He might have had to restart again and despite having Triple H pull the plug on his Wrestlemania moment, he was built up to the point that people wanted him to be World Champion and gaining it through merit as opposed to being "so it's not Hulk Hogan", WWE helped him blossom out of the shadows he was forced to live in during WCW and became his own.
The next is Hulk Hogan, when he returned in 2002, the fans and wrestlers were in awe, Hulkamania was back, he was refreshed and away from any egos and power plays in WCW, he was back in the ground that made him and he was over so bad that people wanted him to stay. He fought in one of the most iconic moments in wrestling and became a World Champion again during it. He also had one of the matches that made Wrestlemania XIX a success, he just was great with the crowd and they wanted him, WWE gave him and they ddn't abuse his character, everything played out until Hogan couldn't give much more. His WWE return wiped his slate from WCW, despite how much of it tainted and played a role in its demise.
Next is Ric Flair, despite arriving so late (he should have been in the Invasion angle), he came back after healing up and was again over with the fans. Despite playing Co-Owner for a while, he got back in the ring and still continued to have great matches. While it may not be realistic for 50-60 year old to beat the young guys, Ric Flair could still pull out some great matches for people to watch. He even help set up the future for Randy Orton and Batista, he had his first ever TLC match but the one thing. While most of it WWE-ised, he still made it work and even gave a match of the night moment with his final match against HBK, he got the true sending off that a legend like himself deserves and this is one of the reasons why Sting should sign with WWE, because they will give him a fully recognised send off that unfortunately TNA won't be able to match.
Finally, we have Goldberg. Now excluding his final match and not being happy with the way he was booked, he had quite an excellent run in the WWE. He faced and beat all of the top guys there, won a World Title and was highly over with the fans. Much like Sting, people never thought Goldberg would sign with WWE, but he did and he still kept the essence of his gimmick he had with WCW and it worked in a world which was far different to WCW back then. If Sting signs, this is how they would make him appealing to the crowd, they would use that essence of his WCW days to give him the range of support he would get from the wrestling community. Right now in TNA, he's more or less gimmickless, he's Sting with a baseball bat who is in the MEM, that's what he currently is right now. Signing with WWE will revive that part of him that gives him the edge, the mystery, the nostalgia, WWE wouldn't make him feel like a has been, he would be treated as a worker of the system and he will show why he is Sting.
Right now, Sting's legacy is already tarnished, he may have a track record of not signing with the WWE, but he should sign with them because it will revive his legacy, making the point that he is a legend. TNA doesn't provide enough justice because working there has affected his legacy, WWE can save it and treat him as a legend. Going with the examples above, it shows that legacies that were formed in WCW and wrestlers who became bigger than the companies, their superiority gets added and revived when they come to the WWE. Sure they might have some McMahon effect into them, but he's a business man who's no stranger to success, much like Sting.
With the point of you mentioing the manner of top stars being "McMahoned". Here are the successes of the top WCW stars who have ended in or returning to the WWE.
The first example is Booker T. Alongside DDP, he was the only top member of WCW that came to the WWE during the Invasion angle, now while he was rushed into the Main Event and World Title scene at WCW. WWE rebuilt him to give him all the credentials to be a solid all round wrestler going from each division and becoming the first African American wrestler to hold the World Title. He might have had to restart again and despite having Triple H pull the plug on his Wrestlemania moment, he was built up to the point that people wanted him to be World Champion and gaining it through merit as opposed to being "so it's not Hulk Hogan", WWE helped him blossom out of the shadows he was forced to live in during WCW and became his own.
The next is Hulk Hogan, when he returned in 2002, the fans and wrestlers were in awe, Hulkamania was back, he was refreshed and away from any egos and power plays in WCW, he was back in the ground that made him and he was over so bad that people wanted him to stay. He fought in one of the most iconic moments in wrestling and became a World Champion again during it. He also had one of the matches that made Wrestlemania XIX a success, he just was great with the crowd and they wanted him, WWE gave him and they ddn't abuse his character, everything played out until Hogan couldn't give much more. His WWE return wiped his slate from WCW, despite how much of it tainted and played a role in its demise.
Next is Ric Flair, despite arriving so late (he should have been in the Invasion angle), he came back after healing up and was again over with the fans. Despite playing Co-Owner for a while, he got back in the ring and still continued to have great matches. While it may not be realistic for 50-60 year old to beat the young guys, Ric Flair could still pull out some great matches for people to watch. He even help set up the future for Randy Orton and Batista, he had his first ever TLC match but the one thing. While most of it WWE-ised, he still made it work and even gave a match of the night moment with his final match against HBK, he got the true sending off that a legend like himself deserves and this is one of the reasons why Sting should sign with WWE, because they will give him a fully recognised send off that unfortunately TNA won't be able to match.
Finally, we have Goldberg. Now excluding his final match and not being happy with the way he was booked, he had quite an excellent run in the WWE. He faced and beat all of the top guys there, won a World Title and was highly over with the fans. Much like Sting, people never thought Goldberg would sign with WWE, but he did and he still kept the essence of his gimmick he had with WCW and it worked in a world which was far different to WCW back then. If Sting signs, this is how they would make him appealing to the crowd, they would use that essence of his WCW days to give him the range of support he would get from the wrestling community. Right now in TNA, he's more or less gimmickless, he's Sting with a baseball bat who is in the MEM, that's what he currently is right now. Signing with WWE will revive that part of him that gives him the edge, the mystery, the nostalgia, WWE wouldn't make him feel like a has been, he would be treated as a worker of the system and he will show why he is Sting.
Right now, Sting's legacy is already tarnished, he may have a track record of not signing with the WWE, but he should sign with them because it will revive his legacy, making the point that he is a legend. TNA doesn't provide enough justice because working there has affected his legacy, WWE can save it and treat him as a legend. Going with the examples above, it shows that legacies that were formed in WCW and wrestlers who became bigger than the companies, their superiority gets added and revived when they come to the WWE. Sure they might have some McMahon effect into them, but he's a business man who's no stranger to success, much like Sting.
Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
I think it adds to his legacy. He helped take this small company that had very little going for it and make it a pretty legitimate number 2 company. He made his first TNA appearance in 2003, even before Impact was begun. In 2006, he became a full-time member of the roster, before any other original member of the Main Event Mafia besides Kevin Nash. Sting has been there since nearly the beginning, and has been an integral part of the company the entire time.
Booker did have success in the WWE, but he is currently having success in TNA, and did well for himself in WCW. He was part of one of the most successful and over tag teams in that company, and held plenty of championships. He was World Champion 4 times and T.V. Champion 6 times. Booker was one of the few "home grown" WCW stars who got somewhere in that company. He ended up with the stupid King Booker gimmick before he left, too.
My argument was that there would be no Hulk Hogan or Hulkamania or any of the other stuff without Vince McMahon. Sting became a legend without the hype machine that is the WWF/E.
While I agree that Sting deserves a Flair-like send-off, it really isn't something he needs. He's made a career out of being a huge star on the second stage, so why not let that second stage give him the best send-off they can?
Goldberg, along with Flair, are the only guys I can think of offhand who were allowed to keep their non-WWE characters and succeed. I assume Vince is intelligent enough to let Sting be Sting if he were to sign with the WWE, but part of the legend of Sting is the fact he never signed with Vince. In a world of YouTube and thousands of TV channels, it may not seem that difficult to become a star outside of the WWE. Bryan Danielson, Austin Aries, Jack Evans, and A.J. Styles all come to mind when I say that. But Sting gained popularity when the WWF was beginning the pay-per-view concept and making wrestling nationalized rather than just regionalized.
His legacy isn't tarnished; If anything, going to TNA helped his legacy. He helped take a small company and make it into a nationally known company. While most of his fans would love for him to get a huge WrestleMania send-off, it would be completely contradictory to what he has done throughout his career. Sting is the one man Vince could never get, and that will be just as important to his legacy as anything he did inside a ring, no matter how many sides it had.
True at some part, he made on and off appearances on TNA before he did his "goodbye" and then started taking part. Which is why I feel TNA already ruined his legacy, they made him do a big farewell only to swerve and have him return to the roster full time, they pulled off a big moment and now it's been belittled by the matter of him still going in TNA. I just think that if TNA are to give him a send off, people will compare it to the first time they did and question whether he would come back again. He's been with them that long and that it means that his "farewell" was quite a cheat to pull in the fans and go "screw this, I'm still going" in a manner of speaking.
He might have had that stupid gimmick, but wasn't it up to Booker T himself to keep the gimmick going or not? He still does the awful accents in TNA, trying to push his ability as an actor. So you can't fully blame Vince for the gimmick, if Booker T hated it, he would have dropped it, fact is he didn't and part of that gimmick involved his most important World Title run, sometimes you got to get through the crap to get to the best things in life. While he quit because of certain angles being booked with Sharmell didn't sit well, he obviously liked his gimmick because he's playing a part role still in TNA.
While that maybe true about Sting being part of the time when WWF/E was on the rise, you said he's always been part of a second stage. Surely given WCW was superior to WWE in terms of ratings for the majority of the time which Sting was in, he wasn't a guy who hung around the second stage. He's no stranger to being in a top company and putting him in the WWE would give him a form of that one final success he knows. While he is a part of TNA during its rise, he wasn't the main reason people view that show. It had support from the NWA, it had a unique X-Division. If all the Sting followers were following him, TNA would actually be a company who thoroughly competes with the WWE.
While it's noted that popular guys are showing up outside of the WWE, look at what's happening to them, they've agreed to sign up to the company. CM Punk was one of ROH's top guys with the best ever feud they had and he's now he's a World Champion through that company. The Indy circuit put Punk, Danielson, etc on the map but WWE makes sure they're cemented with a full purpose.
To say Sting's legacy is because of him never signing for WWE is much like me saying the greatest camera is a Nikon because I never use Canon. While his legacy is made from working in NWA, WCW and TNA, it's not the main reason why he's popular, he was popular because he worked amazing gimmicks, he's a solid worker, he gives the fans what they want by being the best in roleplay, it's much like Austin, Undertaker, Hogan, Flair, all having successful gimmicks that put them on the map, we don't judge a legacy of a wrestler by the company he works for, but rather how he makes his career, gimmick and appearance to the fans work.
If you look at the Sting of TNA and compare him to the Sting of WCW, you would find he's alot different, the reason why he was over with fans is gone and it's why his support has been waning down. TNA did get him up again because the fans said he still had it, but they gave a huge farewell before he even started off working full time, it already affects his legacy because he gets a great "second stage" send off but ends up being part of a work to bring him back, that's quite a negative impact on his legacy, if they honestly cared about his legacy, they wouldn't have pulled a stunt like that.
But yet while he was in TNA, he didn't fully bring it up to speed, they have been slowly gathering momentum from signing guys like Kurt Angle, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Christian Cage, it was a company effort not one man who's never worked for THE company putting TNA on the map. Everyone played a role, Sting was part of it, but TNA's ratings haven't solely relied on Sting himself.
As said before, being with and not being in certain companies doesn't make a wrestler a legend, while it can boost a career, it's up to the wrestler himself on how he can be over and popular. Sting is a legend because he is just that, a man who made himself popular through working a successful gimmick and style, while it's known he hasn't worked for WWE, it's not the main reason he has a legacy, it could be easily said of someone like The Great Muta or any other wrestler who was popular through WCW, ECW, NWA, TNA, a company may get recognition for bringing a wrestler to the mix, but it's not who you with that makes you a legend, it's what you do with them.
Which is why as rightly stated, Sting SHOULD sign with the WWE, because he will get that final recognition that he truly deserves. He was made for the big leagues and he knows that the WWE would give the respect and send off to complete his legacy, finishing off at TNA does him no justice as said before, they've done the angle which has affected his legacy already. Sting made a choice to go on, but he is getting to a point where TNA offers him so little and he loves wrestling. The time for Sting to finish off his career is drawing near and he needs to show why he is a legend of the business which TNA is not able to provide anymore. There's one man and one company who can complete his career rightfully for him, and they are Vince McMahon and the WWE.
Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
Alright, sorry about the delay.
That was years ago. He's in an angle right now where he's mentoring AJ to take his place, and they will give him a good send-off and make it clear that he's done.
WCW may have been winning the ratings war, but WWF/E was still the more well-known company outside the basic wrestling fanbase. When WCW folded, Sting went to companies that no one had ever heard of, or could see on TV. By the time he arrived in TNA, the still didn't really have a TV deal and most of his fans probably assumed he had retired or gone overseas. I'm sure quite a few people still watch TNA to follow Sting, but WCW folding made it very hard to keep track of him.
You can't compare the pre-WWE careers of Punk or Danielson to Sting. I am a big fan of both guys, but Sting is so much more important and successful than they are. In addition, it is much more easy to become a superstar in the indy's today than it was 20 years ago when Sting started out. The internet and the incredible amount of television coverage today makes it so much easier to gain widespread notoriety. Sting came up at a time when you could become popular in regional promotions, but you had to go to the WWF to become known throughout the country. He is one of very few wrestlers to gain that popularity without the help of Vince McMahon.
I agree his in-ring work sets him apart. But what I'm arguing is that the fact that he has gone on record saying he would never work for Vince and that he has gained international fame is an important part of his legacy.
Oh, I understand he's completely different. I'm still in shock he's on Impact without face paint all the time. I almost cried when he took the sunglasses off and I saw Steve Borden's entire face. It was a new company, and it was a way for them to try and get some extra viewers, and an intriguing storyline.
Sting was one of, if not the, first big name guys to go to TNA. While those other guys joining really got the train rolling, Sting was back in the engine room starting the fire.
And he became a legend in the company he came up in. The fact that he has spoken against the WWE and has never worked for them isn't his entire legacy or the reason he has one, but it is a huge part of that legacy. How many legends of the sport can you think of that have taken this strong of a stand against Vince, held to it, and still been extremely successful?
Sting has been an important member of the wrestling community for over 20 years. While his unique gimmick and his in-ring abilities speak for themselves, his ability to become internationally known without Vince McMahon's hype machine is almost as impressive. The fact that he refuses to sign with a company that would pay him millions of dollars a year because of personal beliefs is extremely admirable. I'll end this post with a short shoot from Sting about why he didn't go to WWE after WCW was sold to Vince.
[youtube]ktxW0vidElE[/youtube]
That was years ago. He's in an angle right now where he's mentoring AJ to take his place, and they will give him a good send-off and make it clear that he's done.
WCW may have been winning the ratings war, but WWF/E was still the more well-known company outside the basic wrestling fanbase. When WCW folded, Sting went to companies that no one had ever heard of, or could see on TV. By the time he arrived in TNA, the still didn't really have a TV deal and most of his fans probably assumed he had retired or gone overseas. I'm sure quite a few people still watch TNA to follow Sting, but WCW folding made it very hard to keep track of him.
You can't compare the pre-WWE careers of Punk or Danielson to Sting. I am a big fan of both guys, but Sting is so much more important and successful than they are. In addition, it is much more easy to become a superstar in the indy's today than it was 20 years ago when Sting started out. The internet and the incredible amount of television coverage today makes it so much easier to gain widespread notoriety. Sting came up at a time when you could become popular in regional promotions, but you had to go to the WWF to become known throughout the country. He is one of very few wrestlers to gain that popularity without the help of Vince McMahon.
I agree his in-ring work sets him apart. But what I'm arguing is that the fact that he has gone on record saying he would never work for Vince and that he has gained international fame is an important part of his legacy.
Oh, I understand he's completely different. I'm still in shock he's on Impact without face paint all the time. I almost cried when he took the sunglasses off and I saw Steve Borden's entire face. It was a new company, and it was a way for them to try and get some extra viewers, and an intriguing storyline.
Sting was one of, if not the, first big name guys to go to TNA. While those other guys joining really got the train rolling, Sting was back in the engine room starting the fire.
And he became a legend in the company he came up in. The fact that he has spoken against the WWE and has never worked for them isn't his entire legacy or the reason he has one, but it is a huge part of that legacy. How many legends of the sport can you think of that have taken this strong of a stand against Vince, held to it, and still been extremely successful?
Sting has been an important member of the wrestling community for over 20 years. While his unique gimmick and his in-ring abilities speak for themselves, his ability to become internationally known without Vince McMahon's hype machine is almost as impressive. The fact that he refuses to sign with a company that would pay him millions of dollars a year because of personal beliefs is extremely admirable. I'll end this post with a short shoot from Sting about why he didn't go to WWE after WCW was sold to Vince.
[youtube]ktxW0vidElE[/youtube]
No worries, it's worth wait and I hope you're ok now
Well naturally, at the end of WCW, everybody kept going "Where are they now?" We were doing this with Hogan, Flair & Goldberg before they arrived to the WWE because they kept a low profile. It's also same for the guys who were big 20 years ago but still wrestle in the Indy scene like Jake Roberts. But during the time he was off of the wrestling scene, he was working on a Christian channel as so, this one with his interview with Shawn on it:
[youtube]/v/6bz2Gu9vEo8&hl=en&fs=1&[/youtube]
Now this is showing he kept a profile, but through another audience when he is not wrestling but he's still doing this today. But naturally when around the time WCW folded, websites like WrestleZone were existing and we used these to find out where Sting and everyone were, the information was there.
But also this video shows how much respect he has for Shawn Michaels as a wrestler, a wrestler who rose up and only worked for the WWE, a man that Sting has alot of respect for, which sits as a reason why Sting would be safe and protected in the WWE because Shawn would pull out the stops to do it and Shawn has alot of influence in the company.
Well naturally the different times will make it difficult to compare the likes of CM Punk and Danielson to Sting. But even so, when you look at how hard the likes of Punk and Danielson have to work to get recognised by the big leagues, that's how they are like Sting. When the WWF was on the rise, Sting was working for the NWA, the most popular promotion outside of the company that eventually led to the rise of WCW, he worked in UWF for two years prior but he went to the NWA that led to WCW, so he actually was working in big territories that were looking to compete against Vince, so he still worked for a big company despite the WWF's uprising in the late 1980s.
But yet if you look closely at CM Punk's career, he had been wrestling independently for nearly 10 years before signing to the WWE and being put in the OVW, so Punk was working during the slow emergence of the internet as a resource, it's only been towards the 2002-2005 period where video footage was getting more. While yes, part of his time did include being on TNA, this was still at its starting off point. So CM Punk worked hard during a time when Sting was at the top of his game in WCW to try and do what he loved and only got signed up shortly near to 10 years of wrestling independently, so there is quite a comparison in work, despite having the last 3-4 years of that time being able to be put on the internet thanks to youtube and such.
I moved the video up as it works with this quote. But the fact is, in this shoot, which I was wondering when you would use this, he says he was well treated and that it was more that he didn't trust how he would be used. This was quite some time and it's focused before Goldberg has signed. While The Rock did no favours here because simply, The Rock was showing his own view on the show. If you compare what he said to how things are now, Sting would surely reconsider, The Rock is far gone, Booker T became a World Champion, Goldberg has a successful run while keeping the essence of his character there and Shawn Michaels is there to protect him. People can change their views over time, it may take a while sometimes to be convinced, but Sting's opinions now could be different to when that interview was done. Just because Vince failed to sign him on that occasion, doesn't mean he will fail completely.
Don't forget about Jeff Jarrett, the man who started the company. While he did sign Sting, he was the man who gave TNA life, like him or not, he still was a recognised talent in the WWE and WCW. He may not have been as big as Sting, but he's still a big name that got TNA going.
If you look closely at that shoot interview, did you actually hear him say a bad thing about Vince McMahon? He said Vince was a well respected man who looked after Sting. Now when he's speaking about the WWE, he says his main anger is with how they handled the WCW and mainly that they got buried. While I respect his view on this point in the interview, he's surely not holding on to that sort of view no is he? WCW folded nearly 10 years ago and if Sting is still holding onto that as a reason when the likes of his former WCW counterparts have done so well since then in the WWE, then it abit pathetic, if Bret Hart can forgive Vince and Shawn for the Montreal Screwjob, then surely Sting's got over the WCW factor.
Times are completely different now, The Rock is gone, WCW guys are still succeding in the WWE and he would be right to question joining back then, but this is about now, a time where it's right and perfect for him to join, just because you speak against something, doesn't mean the temptation to do something isn't that strong to try.
Again his view on not joning is not because he has a strong point, while he didn't want to join WWE, he went to TNA instead and has worked there for for a number of years, it's not taking a strong standpoint, he was helping Jeff Jarrett and he found it easier to work with them at the time.
I'll answer a rephrased question of which legends have never worked with Vince, whether or not they had a strong view against him or not, here's the answer:
Jushin Liger
The Great Muta
Mitsuharu Misawa
Verne Gagne
Nick Bockwinkel
Most of the Von Erich family
Abdullah the Butcher
Masahiro Chono
El Santo
To name a few, but these are legends, and despite three of them being inducted into the WWE HOF, they still are legends who never worked for Vince Sr or Jr. So it is possible to be a legend and not work for Vince. But the fact is Sting's legacy is not part of being that, while it plays a factor, there are so many who haven't worked for Vince and still be famous as in the list above. But as said in my previous posts, legacies are made through what you do with your career, not what companies you do or don't sign with, while they play a role it's not a soul reason.
But despite Sting not having worked with Vince, his popularity is also maintained through Vince as well as TNA. Through the On-Demand 24/7 Archives, the DVDs he sells and could you even count the last ever Nitro that was WWF owned that night? The fact is Sting plays a role for Vince, while it's not through actual wrestling, if he had a strong stance against Vince, surely he would have fought for the right for his matches not to be re-distributed through the WWE despite them owning the rights?
Many of the wrestling world who watch WWE don't know about TNA, but if someone uses the WWE's 24/7 service, downloads a few Sting matches and go to look him at TNA after finding out her works there, then surely the Vince McMahon hype machine is helping Sting because his company is showing what Sting has done and if people are wanting to find more, they look for him and find he's in TNA. So while he's not worked for Vince McMahon, can part of his popularity and TNA's be thanked through the WWE because they offer the chance to look up the past and Sting will be there? So while TNA keeps him on the map, WWE points the Sting fans in that direction if they want.
To Sum Up
Sting is no doubt a legend of the wrestling business and he is at a time where he's nearing the end of his career. When it comes to the question of him signing to the WWE or not, I strongly support he should because he still has enough to give to the wrestling world and the WWE can complete the final chapter of his career and give him the send off the likes of Sting deserves. While he may have spoken against working for Vince in the past, he can always change his mind, and yet he serves WWE by proxy through the archives of WCW, so while TNA still have him wrestling, WWE help provide how important Sting is to wrestling from showing his past work today. His time is coming to an end where he's done all he can in TNA and while Sting loves wrestling, he can still give great matches which the WWE can provide new challenges for him, even for a year.
Whilst there are a number of legends who have never worked for Vince, he still recognises them when he sees them and he shows his respect to Sting and that respect will be given to him from the company and in the entirely locker room in the WWE. A legend like Sting can have a legacy made from doing a first that no-one's ever done by signing with the WWE and winning 4 different World Championships in different companies that not even Ric Flair can do, it would certainly mean more than saying his legacy is solely made on not working for the WWE. This as well as the reasons I mentioned in this debate are the reasons, not reason, why he should sign with the WWE to complete his wrestling career.
Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
No worries, it's worth wait and I hope you're ok now
It's all good. Wednesdays are always insane for me.
I wasn't trying to say that he fell off of the face of the earth, but, honestly, how many wrestling fans read these sites, especially 9 years ago? And no one watches Christian television. I admire his faith, I'm a Christian too, but no one watches those channels.
I don't doubt that Vince is smart enough to not ruin Sting, but going to the WWE would ruin Sting. As far as general wrestling fans are concerned, Sting and Shawn are both in the upper echelon of wrestlers , but they took different paths to get there.
Those companies didn't have the national exposure that ROH, PWG, or even the original ECW have/had. The amount of exposure that you get in a major independent company then compared to now is exponentially different due to the internet and TV deals. I don't want to make it seem like he wrestled in a 7 man company out in the boonies somewhere, but a majority of the country could not see Sting or his companies at all.
While I can see what you are saying and the similarities, by getting any exposure from the internet, Punk had an advantage over Sting. Even then, he didn't have the widespread notoriety that Sting had around the time he was gaining popularity in WCW until he was pushed in WWE.
Once again, I don't think Vince would bury Sting. Booker did okay for himself, and Goldberg was Goldberg. I'll come back to this.
Point taken. I didn't think Sting was the first, but no one else was coming to me offhand.
These are guys that either worked a majority of their careers outside of the U.S., or during the pre-WWF era. I wasn't trying to say Sting was the only wrestler ever to not work for Vince McMahon. Instead, he the biggest name wrestler working in the U.S.A. to not work for the WWF/E during the time it has been the most famous wrestling company in the world.
I'll go ahead and sum up also. Sting is one of the best wrestlers of all time, that I'm pretty sure we can agree on. His in-ring and promo work speak for themselves. However, another part of his legacy has been his ability to succeed and become famous without the help of Vince McMahon. He helped move WCW to the top of the wrestling world, and is now helping TNA become a legitimate number two company. I understand that WWE would give him a very nice send-off, and there are plenty of potential feuds. But when I think of Sting, two things come to my mind:
1. One of the top five greatest wrestlers I have ever seen.
2. A man strong enough to say no to Vince McMahon and stay out of the WWE.
Clarity Of Debate: Hard to pick a winner here. No one shined over the other, and no one fell down. If I have to nit pick, I think that Thriller gets these points for his.
Punctuality: But not for this.
Informative: Or this... Phoenix dominated with putting up information early, and balanced out Thrillers information later on.
Emotionality: Both a couple of calm cats here. You both played the card well here, but I think Phoenix was the sharp arrow of the batch, and was able to passionately cut down Thriller's points.
Persuasion: When it comes down to it, I was happy watching those interviews, and thinking about a time in wrestling which was really the change for me in wrestling. Phoenix, you persuaded me for the point here, because you were not backing down the entire debate. great job here.
TM rates this Phoenix 4 points to Thriller 1.
Punctuality: But not for this.
Informative: Or this... Phoenix dominated with putting up information early, and balanced out Thrillers information later on.
Emotionality: Both a couple of calm cats here. You both played the card well here, but I think Phoenix was the sharp arrow of the batch, and was able to passionately cut down Thriller's points.
Persuasion: When it comes down to it, I was happy watching those interviews, and thinking about a time in wrestling which was really the change for me in wrestling. Phoenix, you persuaded me for the point here, because you were not backing down the entire debate. great job here.
TM rates this Phoenix 4 points to Thriller 1.
Clarity: Both had very clear arguments, and I'm not one to really nitpick, but I think Thriller gets the point here.
Point: Thriller
Punctuality: Phoenix gets the point.
Point: Phoenix
Informative: Phoenix started out with more information, and was able to take the legs out of Thriller's argument pretty early.
Point: Phoenix
Emotionality: Both appeared really calm, but it seemed like Phoenix had more of an edge to the debate.
Point: Phoenix
Persuasion: I have usually been under the impression that going to the WWE, Sting would be screwing his own legacy, part of which is that he never worked for Vince. But Phoenix showed that it would probably be more beneficial if he did go to the WWE, and not tarnish his career, because even though he can pride himself on not having ever worked for Vince, that isn't why he is as big a star as he is.
Point: Phoenix
CH David scores it Phoenix 4, Thriller 1.
Point: Thriller
Punctuality: Phoenix gets the point.
Point: Phoenix
Informative: Phoenix started out with more information, and was able to take the legs out of Thriller's argument pretty early.
Point: Phoenix
Emotionality: Both appeared really calm, but it seemed like Phoenix had more of an edge to the debate.
Point: Phoenix
Persuasion: I have usually been under the impression that going to the WWE, Sting would be screwing his own legacy, part of which is that he never worked for Vince. But Phoenix showed that it would probably be more beneficial if he did go to the WWE, and not tarnish his career, because even though he can pride himself on not having ever worked for Vince, that isn't why he is as big a star as he is.
Point: Phoenix
CH David scores it Phoenix 4, Thriller 1.
Clarity: Think the other 2 judges rate this how I would
Point: Thriller
Punctuality: Phoenix was on time, with an apple on my desk
Point: Phoenix
Informative: Pheonix worked hard looking for information
Point: Phoenix
Emotionality: Pheonix again I am afraid
Point: Phoenix
Persuasion: I thought Thriller had the better points here, Sting dont need WWE, he's helping to build TNA.
Point: Thriller
So I'll score this one
Pheonix - 3
Thriller - 2
Point: Thriller
Punctuality: Phoenix was on time, with an apple on my desk
Point: Phoenix
Informative: Pheonix worked hard looking for information
Point: Phoenix
Emotionality: Pheonix again I am afraid
Point: Phoenix
Persuasion: I thought Thriller had the better points here, Sting dont need WWE, he's helping to build TNA.
Point: Thriller
So I'll score this one
Pheonix - 3
Thriller - 2
Cena's Little Helper
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Clarity Of Debate - I liked Thriller's opening argument.
Point: Thriller
Punctuality - Read TM"s post.
Point: Phoenix
Informative - Good job on the information, Phoenix.
Point: Phoenix
Emotionality - Thriller, I'll give you the point here, as you're a nice guy, and I'm giving Phoenix the next point.
Point: Thriller
Persuasion - Have you ever not persuaded me, Phoenix? I'm pretty sure there has been an instance...that question's rhetorical, mind you.
Point: Phoenix
tdigle's Score
Phoenix - 3
Thriller - 2
Point: Thriller
Punctuality - Read TM"s post.
Point: Phoenix
Informative - Good job on the information, Phoenix.
Point: Phoenix
Emotionality - Thriller, I'll give you the point here, as you're a nice guy, and I'm giving Phoenix the next point.
Point: Thriller
Persuasion - Have you ever not persuaded me, Phoenix? I'm pretty sure there has been an instance...that question's rhetorical, mind you.
Point: Phoenix
tdigle's Score
Phoenix - 3
Thriller - 2