Week 4- TSG vs. Lee

FromTheSouth

You don't want it with me.
This thread is for the debaters only, and it will be open until Sunday at 6 PM CST. TSG will be affirming the topic.

Resolved: On balance, the will of the majority should be the determining factor in the use of public funds.
 
On balance, the will of the majority should be the determining factor in the use of public funds.

Public funds, or government spending, however you want to view it, should be determined by the will of majority. Think about it for a moment. If the government, or a city, or whatever, wants to use it's funds, whatever the funds head towards is going to effect the people of said city or the people living under said government. Don't you think that the people who it's going to effect should at least have the decision of what the funds will be used for. It kind of relates to the Revolutionary War in a way. All the taxes and acts that The British put in effect in the colonies directly effected the colonists, yet they didn't have a say in Parliament and therefore, even though they should of had the right to decide what happened to them, they didn't. That is what we went to war for, and why we have a democracy now, so we can decide our fate.

Also, whose money is being used for this public/government spending? That's right, the taxpayers. It is just right that you should be able to decide what your money goes torwards. We may or may not choose the right area for the money to go to, but it was our choice and we will live with the consequences. But, the bottom line is, we're the one's who the spending will effect, and it's our money which is being spent, so we should have the choice.
 
On balance, the will of the majority should NOT be the determining factor in the use of public funds.

Lets look at it for a moment here, of course I am assuming public money is that which has been gained through taxation (there are many different definitions but this is the one that's most common). So here we go into the nitty gritty of things. How does the public majority make itself heard? Here I will be taking some examples we'll all know about. So lets look at the will of the majority in some of these then:

Case number one- Springfield

For all those who have ever switched on a TV, they shall know that Springfield is in fact the home of the cartoon family "The Simpsons." We can all think of examples from this show where they have had a town meeting to decide how to use public money. We also knows what generally happens, some wacky scheme is given the go ahead and the will of the majority fail whilst either Lisa or Marge is right. The monorail episode is the best example of this.

Case number two - The Internet Wrestling Community

This shows us that the majority of people think Cena sux and that he only knows five moves. Look at it some more, Cena is regularly getting the biggest pops of the night and improving month in month out. This shows that the majority is in fact wrong.

Case number three - Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson, in his first inaugural address in 1801 said, "Though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable;...the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression". The law provides protection when the majority is wrong which happens quite often!

Case number four- History


Slavery was what teh majority thought was right, Nazi Germany thought Nazism was right, themajority thought women shouldn't vote until the late 19th/early 20th century, and what about blacks and buses?

Case five - flies


One of the most common creatures on the planet is the humble fly. It's main diet is shit, does that mean eating shit is right because the majority does it?

Then we have the question as to how to determine the public majority? Should you hold a referrendum for every decision? That's impractical. What about listen to the wavelengths? Ah but it's the most vocal that are heard, not the majority.

Using these examples it's clear the majority can't be trusted and it is for that reason goverment exists in turn to determine how public money is spent. Public money in the UK has strict rules on how it can and can't be spent and personally I feel that that is needed as it will have a better long term future than what the majority want at the time.
 
On balance, the will of the majority should NOT be the determining factor in the use of public funds.

We will see.

Lets look at it for a moment here, of course I am assuming public money is that which has been gained through taxation (there are many different definitions but this is the one that's most common). So here we go into the nitty gritty of things. How does the public majority make itself heard? Here I will be taking some examples we'll all know about. So lets look at the will of the majority in some of these then:

Case number one- Springfield

For all those who have ever switched on a TV, they shall know that Springfield is in fact the home of the cartoon family "The Simpsons." We can all think of examples from this show where they have had a town meeting to decide how to use public money. We also knows what generally happens, some wacky scheme is given the go ahead and the will of the majority fail whilst either Lisa or Marge is right. The monorail episode is the best example of this.

Okay, so you are really going to use a television show, an animated one (don't get me wrong, I love it) that is very outlandish, featuring talking aliens, to make a point. I'm sorry, I am not buying it. I am not going to take something that happens on Simpsons as a good point in a debate.

Case number two - The Internet Wrestling Community

This shows us that the majority of people think Cena sux and that he only knows five moves. Look at it some more, Cena is regularly getting the biggest pops of the night and improving month in month out. This shows that the majority is in fact wrong.

What in thy holy h-e-double hockey sticks does the IWC have to do with public funding. That enough fails your argument here, try reading the question. Besides, I know alot of the IWC, alot of people here, that do in fact laugh at people that say Cena sucks and that he knows five moves. I am one of them. But this isn't a wrestling debate, let's not go their. Read the topic.

Case number three - Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson, in his first inaugural address in 1801 said, "Though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable;...the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression". The law provides protection when the majority is wrong which happens quite often!


Yes, but this does not mean that the majority cannot win. What if the majority is right and their idea benefits the minority. What's the law going to protect the minority from then? That is what I thought.

Case number four- History
Slavery was what teh majority thought was right, Nazi Germany thought Nazism was right, themajority thought women shouldn't vote until the late 19th/early 20th century, and what about blacks and buses?


Since when does slavery and woman suffrage have to do with public funding.

Case five - flies
One of the most common creatures on the planet is the humble fly. It's main diet is shit, does that mean eating shit is right because the majority does it?

Oh so flies are paying taxes now? Once again, nothing to do with public funding.

Then we have the question as to how to determine the public majority? Should you hold a referrendum for every decision? That's impractical. What about listen to the wavelengths? Ah but it's the most vocal that are heard, not the majority.

I see no problem with holding a referrendum for major public spending endeavors. That way we get what the public wants. And if the public screws up, they deal with the consequences. it's kind of like electing a new president. People voted for him. After 9/11, a majority didn't like him. But they had to deal with him, because that was who they voted for. The majority is how we chose who runs our country, the biggest choice we can make. So why not use it for public spending, something not as big.

Using these examples it's clear the majority can't be trusted and it is for that reason goverment exists in turn to determine how public money is spent. Public money in the UK has strict rules on how it can and can't be spent and personally I feel that that is needed as it will have a better long term future than what the majority want at the time.

Yeah, maybe it's clear the majority is wrong about slavery, or maybe it's clear that outlandish animated TV writers have the same opinion as you, and maybe it's clear that flies, who really have no place in this since they aren't even human, have a majority of stomachs hungry for some warm ol' poop. But it proves nothing above that.
 
We will see.

Sure we will!

Okay, so you are really going to use a television show, an animated one (don't get me wrong, I love it) that is very outlandish, featuring talking aliens, to make a point. I'm sorry, I am not buying it. I am not going to take something that happens on Simpsons as a good point in a debate.

The aliens that are only in the tree house of horror episodes? This would even be half valid if you didn't just pluck what IC said in the Mr Belvedere thread. The Simpsons has always been a good parody of society as a whole, and makes a very valid point. Something you've yet to do.

What in thy holy h-e-double hockey sticks does the IWC have to do with public funding. That enough fails your argument here, try reading the question. Besides, I know alot of the IWC, alot of people here, that do in fact laugh at people that say Cena sucks and that he knows five moves. I am one of them. But this isn't a wrestling debate, let's not go their. Read the topic.

It has quite a lot to prove that the majority is wrong, look at other sites aside fromhere. The Majority of the IWC is wrong.

Yes, but this does not mean that the majority cannot win. What if the majority is right and their idea benefits the minority. What's the law going to protect the minority from then? That is what I thought.

You also thought that the simpsons was about talking aliens. What's your point?

Since when does slavery and woman suffrage have to do with public funding.

More than you realise sonny Jim. The ending of slavery and allowing women to vote has allowed both blacks and women to have the say so in the running of everything. To get into power and thus things have changed.

Oh so flies are paying taxes now? Once again, nothing to do with public funding.

It was called an extreme point.

I see no problem with holding a referrendum for major public spending endeavors. That way we get what the public wants.

Most people can't be arsed to vote for who they want to elect, why would they vote in a refferendum?

And if the public screws up, they deal with the consequences. it's kind of like electing a new president. People voted for him. After 9/11, a majority didn't like him. But they had to deal with him, because that was who they voted for.

Proving once again that the public is wrong, and often. A plan that will assess what the best use for public money for the long term future that is carefully researched and discussed, rather than letting the public vote because they like one thing this week is a croc of shit. Look at referrendums in the past...The UK has held one country wide one, that was to get into the EEC. They voted yes for that, now most want out of the EU.

The majority is how we chose who runs our country, the biggest choice we can make. So why not use it for public spending, something not as big.

Well the majority isn't the case in either country. Have you heard of the electoral college? Do I need to list Adams, Lincoln, Wilson (both times), Truman, Kennedy? These are examples of the fourteen presidents who were elected with the minority of the votes. It doesn't take a genius to know that Lincoln and Kennedy are down as two of the greatest presidents of all the time. I also don't need to tell you about the first past the post system in use in the UK which gave Labour another term in the UK at the last election despite only a 36% vote share.


Yeah, maybe it's clear the majority is wrong about slavery, or maybe it's clear that outlandish animated TV writers have the same opinion as you, and maybe it's clear that flies, who really have no place in this since they aren't even human, have a majority of stomachs hungry for some warm ol' poop. But it proves nothing above that.

:disappointed:
 
TSG could have won easily if he would have pointed out the the phrase "on balance" means that it is acceptable to say most of the time in this debate.

Where was the argument about public Christmas displays? The majority of the western world is Christian.

Anyway, Lee's slavery argument is a valid point, but the Sign Guy took the round more seriously. Springfield is an illustartion of what could go wrong, but the liklihood is slim at best. I vote Sign Guy here, even though he said that Bush had a low approval rating after 9/11. On the day we invaded Afghanistan, he had the highest approval rating ever for a President.

SG - 41
Lee 37
 
How does TSG get 41 with so many flaws in his debate? I'm just trying to understand how the scoring works for future reference, if we say the wrong thing we get a point? If we mention something from a TV show we lose one? Whilst mine was FAR from good (being on the opposite side to the one I actually wanted) TSGs was a very piss poor argument and didn't really say too much to sway me.
 
Lee won this for me. TSG didn't really bring much to the table, other than saying Lee's points weren't valid. While they may have been far fetched, there was still some truth to them.

Lee - 35
TSG - 32
 
Some good debates here, this is my first time judging one of these for FTS, so here it goes. Bit of a change from my judging, but I think I have it.

The Sign Guy was good in his posts, but I really feel as though he had flawed logic, he did have good points, creating a net of information, but it didn't connect fully.

25 points

Lee was able to have a great debate here, and connected his key points. If he had put up as much points as The Sign guy, he would have scored heavily against him.

30 points
 

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