Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: this_feature_currently_requires_accessing_site_using_safari
Thunderball said:If you think that an asset to wrestling is someone who is a great wrestler who can cut a great promo and play both a heel and a face with ease, which I do, then there is no better candidate than Bret Hart.
Thunderball said:If an asset’s job is to create moment that no one will ever forget and moments that will create discussion amongst the fans of the product, then Bret Hart is one of the biggest assets in history.
Thunderball said:If you think that a great asset to wrestling is someone who can put people over with ease and can make someone look good whilst winning against them, then their no better candidate than Bret Hart.
Thunderball said:If an asset is someone who has reached the pinnacle of pro-wrestling and is held in the highest regard by the fans that he is trying to please, then there is not many who can be called an asset before Bret “The Hitman” Hart.
The question whether or not Bret Hart is better than The Rock, in the ring has nothing to do with this debate. Nor is it, Who is better overall. The question that lies before us here today, is "Who did more for the business, Bret Hart or The Rock?" I think most certainly, without any question it is The Rock. The Rock was a superior entertainor, The Rock was better on The Mic, Because The Rock, did something more than Bret Hart was capable of doing. Because The Rock, drew more money, than Bret Hart ever dreamed about. Due to these facts, I say, The Rock was a better asset to the Wrestling world, than Bret Hart ever dreamed about by any means.
I don't think theres any question that Bret Hart is easily in the top 5 best technical wrestlers in the world. But that wasn't part of the question. Which was a better asset to the company? Like many of the greats, The Rock was an entertainer. He didn't need to be on the TV for more than 20 minutes a show, to let his presence be known. In 5-10 minutes The Rock could make a promo that up and coming wrestlers need to listen to before making it big. Such as:
Then the Rock is your man. Because outside of the greats like Hogan, and Austin, there isn't one man that has created as much discussion and brought the more mainstream attention to the wrestling business in the world. People that don't even watch wrestling anymore, still to this day associate men like Hogan, Austin, Hogan, Andre The Giant, and someone very important that you forgot. The Rock. The Rock still brings in viewers to this day. People see him in big films, and associate his face, with the wrestling business. Drawing further money for the WWE.
Actually your man would be The Rock. He lost to Austin several times throughout history, and only beat him once on The Grandest stage of them all. (That I know of) Austin and The Rock had very many matches together, and while I certainly remember The Rock picking up very few wins, Austin always looked very very stong after his matches. This list also extends from Austin, over into Mick Foley, Triple H, The Big Show, and this seems to be the case with everyone else The Rock came in contact with.
Now, take a look at Bret Hart. The guy could put on a wrestling match with the best of them. But at the end of the day, did he really help their careers excel? Is Mr Perfect's best match ever considered to be with Bret Hart? What star did Bret Hart ever make? Hell, he wasn't a star (in Ric Flair's eyes, of course) himself, so I highly doubt he could ever make one. During Bret Harts reign as champion, he never did much, for anybody.
I don't know many people, whatsoever. With any problems with The Rock, outside of John Cena. I'm sure hes not high on Mr Mcmahon's list, because of wanting to shed his wrestling image, and move on to Hollywood. But, you do have to look at the big picture. The Rock still drew for the wrestling world, even after leaving the business entirely. His name in mainsteam movies, made people have some sort of nostalgia twards their old wrestling hobbies, I'm sure he draws people to this very day. People recognise The Rocks face in a huge movie, and think of Wrestling, immediately. Thats a great asset to wrestling.
Bret Hart has had many many classics over the years, but the fact remains that he never drew much, at all. The Rock is one of the WWE's top 3-4 draws, ever. Wrestlers may think of Bret Hart as good, and may even look up to him. But The Rock, Austin, Hogan, and McMahon is who they truly desire to be. None of which were really that great in the ring, but were all great on the stick. They could have matches with anyone, and everyone, and still draw big. Bret couldn't do that, with the 2-3 chances he was given to become a huge star. The Rock influences more wrestlers, and more people to this day, so I'm positive that makes him a better asset to professional wrestling. While Bret was amazing in the ring, so was The Rock, just look at these matches. Which I would consider some of the biggest wrestling matches, in the history of WrestleMania.
On the contrary, I think that an asset to the wrestling business is not only someone who can bring in money,
an asset is someone who can entertain the fans of the product that you are trying to sell.
The Rock was phenomenal at cutting a promo, there is no doubt about it but Bret Hart was just as good.
I don't believe you can say that being better in a wrestling ring is not being an asset to a wrestling company.
I think that is a very naive thing to say and I believe it is because no one can compete with the Hitman inside of the ring,
At then end of the day, people tune into wrestling to see wrestling.
I personally loved wrestling when it was full of promos, a la the Attitude Era but the main reason I have stuck around after that era is because of the wrestling.
That is why many have stuck around and it is the reason that people will always watch the WWE.
Being a great wrestler is most certainly being an asset.
I think you are being very naive if you think that Bret Hart wasn't as big an asset to the WWF/E because he was a better wrestler.
The fact of the matter is that people want to see wrestling when they watch wrestling,
Hell, it is half the reason that old school fans still tune into the product today.
Wrestling should be about wrestling and there was few better than Bret Hart.
As for the entertainer thing. Of course the Rock could cut a promo and was good on the stick.
Bret Hart however, was just as good at parts of his career.
don't know if you have ever seen the Heat generated by his anti-US angle just before he left the WWF. I have never seen heat like that. He executed that part of the business with flawless style.
Bret Hart could cut a promo and entertain people just as much as the Rock, if not more.
Are you legitimately trying to say that teh Rock was the bigger asset to the wrestling business because he has starred in a few Disney movies?
John Cena has starred in movies but wrestling fans have never been fans of the transition into movies from wrestlers.
In fact, Cena was slated for it and generally, people think it was a mistake for The Rock to transition into film.
Look around the place, people are always making thread saying that he should come back and just do what he is good at.
Make no mistake, people would associate The Rock more with wrestling, if he was in fact a wrestler.
Another asset to wrestling is loyalty from a superstar. The Rock saw a chance to make more money elsewhere and in a heartbeat, he was gone.
Bret Hart was a 15 year veteran of the WWF/E and even more in the WCW.
How can the Rock be a bigger asset to wrestling than a man who put everything into his matches, every time he went through the ropes?
I beg to differ on this point. I was watching the WWE Raw's 15 anniversary DVD and there is a match that proves you wrong. Bret Hart vs The 1-2-3 Kid. This match is one of the best matches that I have ever seen. The 1-2-3 Kid's finest match inside a ring without a doubt.
Saying that Bret Hart could not put someone over as well as the Rock is just flat out wrong.
After the match, Vince McMahon, Randy Savage and all the fans got to their feet and applauded the match that they had just witnessed. Randy Savage said it was the best match he had ever seen. I urge you to go and watch some of the matches that Bret Hart had with other before claiming that he could not put people over as well as the Rock.
I mean, how is The Rock, trying to shed his wrestling image, a good thing for wrestling?
\Do you see the hypocrisy here or is it just me?
The Rock was decent in the ring but was not even nearly on the same standard as Bret Hart.
The thing that the Rock relied on was his ability to cut a promo.
In the times of Bret Hart, I think that The Rock would have had nowhere near the success that he had in the Attitude Era.
It wasn't about cutting a promo, it was about wrestling and getting the fans enthralled in your matches.
Bret Hart was one of the greatest at doing so, only bested by maybe Ric Flair or Hulk Hogan.
The point being that Bret Hart could do it all and it wasn't a case of Jack of all trades, master of none.
Bret Hart was one of the most talented people who ever steeped into a ring, inside and outside of the ropes. When you really think about it, that's what an asset to wrestling truly is.
The Rock is one of the greatest wrestlers ever, and hes made enough money in the WWE to prove that.
Obviously, you're being hypocritical. Bret Hart didn't have loyalty either, look at the screwjob. The screwjob happened, because Bret Hart was trying to screw the company. Thus they put Bret Hart in his place.
Actually, neither of us have the definition of an asset wrong, we just have different was of looking at what that definition is. According to dictionary.com, an asset is: A useful or valuable quality, person, or thing.
Now, Bret Hart and the Rock were both very useful to the company as a whole.
The real debate is in what we see as valuable. For me, as a fan of wrestling, a value I would want to have is skill.
Your definition of value is monetary success. We are both correct.
The problem is that we both believe that different things make people assets to a company.
I think that a wrestling company should make wrestling the highest priority and you believe that money is the highest priority and that is fine because that dispute can't be settled here.
What I will say is that Bret Hart was one of the most talented people inside of a ring and there was occasions that Bret Hart really did strike gold on the stick. You ask me for proof and I will give you it:
Some of the better prmos that I have seen and undoubtedly some of the best promos that Bret ever did.
Listen to some of the pops that he was getting in the first one and listen the heat he is drawing in the second one.
Bret Hart could cut a promo, that is not in doubt.
Personally, I thought that The Rock was a better promo cutter but because that's what he did.
The Rick had certain things that he would say that would have been in chorus but Bret never needed to do this.
Some of the sayings that The Rock would come out with made you believe that they were great promos but to be quite honest a lot of them were the same old stuff from the Rock.
Bret went out there and spoke his mind and worked his alignment well.
Also, saying that Bret being the best Canadian wrestler ever being nothing is ridiculous. Canada has produced some of the best wrestlers that teh WWE has ever seen. Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Edge, the list goes on. Canada is a great ground for wrestling talent.
The argument that Bret was not a good seller is basically ludicrous too.
If tha was the case, why did Vince sign him to 20 year contract? If that was the case, why was he offered the biggest contract in pro-wrestling history to join the WCW?
My point is that Bret Hart could sell. Otherwise it would make no sense to sign him to such an expensive contract would it?
Giving someone such a big contract who could not get any return out of it is bad business and we all know what an asset should be, don't we Milk?
Someone who brings in money? If that's the case both the WWE and WCW are stupid because they would be making an untallyable loss.
The case for why Vince McMahon let Bret go is not because he could not sell,
it is because he wanted to take the company public and that meant minimising the long-term agendas that the WWE had.
It was not because he couldn't sell or entertain, otherwise he would have been out of there way before Montreal.
My point being: If Bret was a case of no-return, why was he around for the 15 years before that?
\The Rock see a Rock movie and think of wrestling, which may or may not be true at the end of the day. When I think of Dwaine Johnson, the movie star, I think of Dwaine Johnson in movies, not in wrestling. Bret Hart is wrestling through and through. When I see him, I automatically think of the Montreal Screw Job and some of the best matches I have ever seen.
I'm sorry but this is just plain ignorant of you. Bret Hart never screwed Bret Hart as te saying goes. Vince McMahon screwed Bret Hart. Please give me any proof that Bret Hart was trying to screw the WWE. Bret Hart was released from his 20 year contract and told to ask Ted Turner if he would still offer him the same contract that he offered before. You know, the one he rejected when he signed a 20 year contract with the WWE. As I mentioned before, Bret was told that it did not make business sense to tie him to such a lengthy contract, especially when he wanted to take the company public. Bret Hart wanted to stay with the WWF/E.
My final point is that you are trying to prove that Bret Hart was bad for business in monetary terms when he wasn't nearly as bad as you make him out to be.
The Attitude Era was the most successful Era in wrestling history, Period.
The Rock was not wholly responsible for that though, he was part of it but not everything.
There was a time in the WWF/E's history that Bret Hart led the way in every sense of the word.
He was the biggest draw and the best superstar on the roster, it is arguable.
The Rock cannot be given all the credit for the success of the Attitude Era and all the money it made because he played second fiddle to Austin during a time when the WWF/E needed to show that it was dominant.
Just because the Attitude Era was a better draw in terms of ratings, or more financially sound was not because of the Rock, which is what I think you are trying to prove with some of your arguments.
Either way, great debating with you Milk.