Week 3: IC 25 -versus- Thunderball

Discussion in 'Debator's League 2009' started by Mr. TM, Aug 16, 2009.

  1. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Over time, wrestlers have jumped ship from one promotion to another promotion. Each time the wrestler had a different run in each company. Some have been better, some have been worse. But for those wrestlers who faced a similar push, in which company did they thrive more in?

    Did The Big Show/The Giant thrive more in WCW or WWE?



    Thunderball is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

    Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.
     
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  2. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    I will be arguing for him thriving more in the WWF/E.

    IC can post first if he feels.
     
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  3. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    First things first, right out of the gate, I want to wish the best to my opponent this week, Thunderball. He's been making quite a name for himself debating here the last 2 weeks, and it'll be fun to be face to face with him. Plus, I know I'll need to be on my "A" game, as he will not let me rest a moment until next week.

    I fear, however, that his decision making isn't quite at 100% though. He was given the chance to select the topic of this week's debate, and rather than make the right choice, he gave the right choice to me. Maybe he just wants a challenge, which is fine by me. But the fact is, Paul Wight, a.k.a. The Big Show, was significantly more in WCW than he was in WWE.

    Sadly, we live in a world where younger fans and revisionist historians will over-weight Show's WWF/E career because of its recency and longevity, if you want to call an inconsistent career "longevitous." So despite being on the side of the debate that is obviously correct, I still face an uphill battle as I attempt the recreate how impressive Wight's WCW career was, and compare it to the virtual ski slope of ups and downs, bumps and valleys, that has marred his "decade of decency" in WWF.

    Why Show's WCW Career was Remarkable

    WCW knew the type of physical specimen they had with Wight. The men went through WCW's Power Plant and even hit moonsaults on a regular basis. He was a towering figure with the athleticism to do it all in the ring. Remarkably, he was also a great talker, capable of acting like the monster his size would denote.

    So what happened with him? He was billed as the son of Andre the Giant and placed in a feud with some local kid by the same of Hulk Hogan. Say what you will about the sort of odd Monster Truck contest (and no, I am not going to attempt to win this debate by arguing that in WCW Wight was able to survive a fall off of a building - sillyness), Wight became the first man in wrestling history to actually win the World Heavyweight Championship in his in-ring debut. If a guy did that today, the fans would riot. The reason Wight could pull it off, however, was because people believed HE had Hogan's number. Despite winning the title via DQ, the belt was held up a week later, so he was 1-0, a former World Champion who had never lost the belt.

    In the coming weeks, Wight and Flair beat Hogan and Savage in a tag team match before Wight took his first loss, at the hands of Hogan, which is nothing to be ashamed of.

    Wight's 2nd World Title came after he beat another local guy named Richard Flair. Maybe it was Ric for short, I forget. Wait, wait...Paul Wight's first two world title wins came against Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair!? Hmmm....

    After some tussles with Hogan (Wight was always good enough to get in Hogan's way), Wight became one of the first men to truly challenge the nWo, along side Luger and Sting. He worked as a face just as effectively as he did a heel. Wight then feuded with Kevin Nash, who f'ed up a powerbomb and injured Wight. Wight wasn't injury prone in WCW, he just got stuck with idiots in the ring. He allowed his contract in WCW to expire shortly thereafter.

    So, let's recap. Wight is a two-time WCW World Champion in less than 4 years with the company. His major feuds were with Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, and Goldberg. He won the WCW World Title in his debut match. He beat Hogan and Flair for his two world titles. He was among the great physical specimens in wrestling history for 4 years.

    Why Show's WWF/E Career has been Lackluster at best...

    Wight was given a strong start in WWF as well, debuting in a major Austin vs McMahon match (though costing McMahon the match itself) and acting as the McMahon stable bodyguard. He was a part of one of the most shortlived and least successful stables in wrestling history, The Union, before being chokeslammed through the mat by The Undertaker.

    Eventually, Wight won his first WWF Title in a triple threat match he wasn't even originally in. He took Steve Austin's spot and took advantage of the HHH vs Rock feud to win the belt. During that title run, his ONE defense was defeating...wait for it...The Big Boss Man? Yes, folks, though Thunderball may try (unsuccessfully) to convince you otherwise, Wight's first WWF Title reign was possibly the most worthless in WWF History. Yokozuna's 128 second title reign at Wrestlemania 9 meant more. So did Khali's reign. Show's multi-faceted two months of crying a beating up on Ray Trailor still sits in a clearance bin at the gift shop at The International House of Suck. That's located in Decatur, for those who aren't familiar.

    After Wight dropped this now disgraced title to Triple H, Wight was given a spot in the main event of Wrestlemania 2000. In this fatal four way elimination match, Wight was the first man eliminated. Shock. And how did he react to the loss? Refocused? Angry? Nope, he was fine with it, and went on a stretch where he embarassed himself by mimicking the gimmicks of other men who were bigger stars than he was.

    The downward spiral continues. Wight's next big feud was with...Shane McMahon. The attitude era was moving on without him, and after another heel turn, Wight AGAIN became Undertaker's bitch, this time chokeslammed through a table and forced to OVW to lose weight and get in shape. The dominant athlete WCW had once made a cornerstone of their biggest run in history was now fat, out of shape, and in the minor leagues.

    Show came back, and got tossed out of the Royal Rumble by The Rock. Nobody cared, so Show went for the Hardcore title, losing a match to Kane and Raven. He lost a Last Man Standing match to Shane McMahon and with Ric Flair as his partner (the same team that defeated Hogan and Savage in WCW), they lost to Austin in a handicap match. At this time, it was hard to tell if he was a heel or a face, though it's safe to say this was his 4th or 5th turn.

    In Wight's most impressive WWF moment, Wight aligned with Paul Heyman to take the WWF Title off of Brock Lesnar. THAT reign lasted a grand total of 1 month before Show lost to Angle.

    SO that's two WWF Title reigns, and two bits of worthless, transitional crap. He was the guy who Lesnar and Angle beat on to draw steam for their showdown at Wrestlemania. He subsequently went winless against Lesnar and was relegated to the US Title picture.

    Wight was forced out for another 6 months during a feud with Kurt Angle, who helped Wight's fall from grace by downing him with a tranq gun and shaving his head. To make matters worse, Wight's Wrestlemania that year was a sumo match against Akebono, which he lost. Ouch.

    His next two rivals were Carlito and Gene Snitsky. I won't elaborate as their is no need.

    Rather than take you through the next year or so of ho-hum matches and useless feuds, as we all know, Wight wound up winning the WWE's third-tier promotion title, the ECW title, defeating Rob van Dam with Heyman's alignment AGAIN. Been done before, no? After a couple months with some decent matches, the now injury prone and again overweight Paul Wight was again sidelined for months on end. 2 years, really.

    Wight returned, 150 pounds lighter, to an attack on Rey Mysterio that went nowhere. Show was eventually tagged to feud with...Floyd Mayweather. Really? Big Show AGAIN lost to a non-wrestler, AGAIN at Wrestlemania. Way to be, Paul. Yeah, the WWF stint was MUCH Better than being a dominant WCW figure in feuds with men like Hogan, Flair, Nash, and Goldberg. I'd rather fight non-wrestlers and guys like Gene Snitsky. [/sarcasm]

    Wight's WWF/E run has been marred by an incomprehensible number of face and heel turns, impersonations of Rikishi, worthless title runs, and 2 hiatuses to lose weight. And THIS is the Big Show who was better than WCW's The Giant?

    If you take ALL of Wight's best WWF moments (that's 10 years worth), it STILL doesn't hold a candle to what he did in less than 4 years with WCW.

    And before you even say it...

    "But Big Show is the first man to ever win the WWF, WCW, and ECW titles!"

    His WWF runs were slop. At least his short initial run in WCW was significant. And his ECW title run was at a time when ECW was Vince's third tier promotion and he wanted the belt OFF of the ECW original. It was just a way to get the belt on Lashley.
     
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  4. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    Thank you. That means a lot coming from you and I hope that I can give you a competitive debate over the next week. I knew from the start that you were certainly going to give me a more than ample debate. I look forward to it and I wish you the best of luck. Hopefully, I can raise my game enough to stand toe to toe with you.

    I feel perfectly justoified in my decision and I hope that I can prove you and all the other judges wrong if they think that The Big Show/Paul White thrived more in WCW. I believe that White is significantly more, in the WWF/E, than he ever was in the WCW. I have many reasons for thinking this but I will try and prove to you that The Big Show was exponentially more in the WWF/E, than he was in WCW

    I find it very amusing that you call White’s WWF/E career a “ski slopes of ups and down’s when White’s WCW career was infinitely worse than that. White’s WCW career was loaded with gimmick matches that went nowhere, plants and effectively starting at the top. By the end of it all, White knew that he would be better off further away from the booking of WCW and onto new heights as one of the biggest and most destructive forces in the WWE in recent history. I will try and tell you why this so called “Decade of Decency” is false and his tenure on WCW was far less than “Remarkable” in IC’s words.

    WHITE’S WCW CAREER.

    Nothing has changed IC. Big Show is still the most imposing figure in the WWE, as he was in the WCW. Big Show is still the towering figure he was and is perhaps better on the stick than he was in the WCW. There is no substitute for experience in the ring and on the mic. Big Show knows how to work a crowd so much better now than he did 14 years ago. As for the moonsaults, I don’t see how this proves that he was better at all. In fact, I have my reasons regarding why he stopped performing such a move. My point is that the Big Show is still capable of cutting a great promo in the WWE and if anything he is better now than he was in WCW.

    You are damn right IC, that was “sillyness”, wasn’t it!? The fact of the matter is that the whole persona of White in WCW started off as “sillyness”. Don’t try and take away from something that was just completely ludicrous by trying to sweep it under the rug. White’s WCW career was marred by stupid story angles that were completely ridiculous and unbelievable. It started when Big Show was forced into the deep end of the pool of WCW, claiming that he was the son of Andre the giant. In fact, he claimed that Hogan had been responsible for the death of Andre The Giant: “sillyness”. They then proceeded to feud for a while, which resulted in a Monster Truck brawl on top of a building: “sillyness”. So they thought that Hulk Hogan killed the Big Show after he “plummeted” off the building and the only two things more ridiculous than that are:

    a) Hulk Hogan lamely saying “Oh no” with all the force of a hand-held fan and
    b) White turning up later that night as if nothing had fucking happened.

    I don’t know, maybe the WCW were trying to be edgy by pretending to kill someone but at least in the WWE, The Big Show’s feuds have been completely believable. Yes, people thought that his stature made him an ideal opponent for Hogan but that is still there. What WWE don’t do with White, is pretend that he is fucking immortal. So the first point that I want to make is that: With the WWE, White has remained a very dominant figure in the ring but his feuds have been so much more believable and to the fans.

    I feel you are missing a very important detail here, IC. After the tag feud that he embroiled himself in, White went on to feud with The Loch Ness Monster… Who!? I hear you ask. Well, “who” is right. In fact, White faded into a little bit of obscurity after the tag feud. Hardly the hallmark of a “remarkable” WCW career, is it?

    By “tussles”, you mean that he again lost the title to Hogan, don’t you? This title reign lasted a bit longer than 8 days though. In fact, it lasted 110 days, which is less than 4 months. The man who took the belt off him, Hollywood Hogan’s reign lasted over a year. White’s reign were nothing spectacular and compared to some of the other reigns around that time, uninspiring.

    Following on from that, White joined the NWO a few weeks later. So from going from the top of the pile, to the bottom of the bottom, it took only 23 days. That’s really “remarkable”. White was now a lackey for Hogan, a man who he had been feuding with not even a month ago. Ridiculous and certainly not “remarkable”.

    OK, well let me recap. Wight is a two time champion after being pushed to the moon by WCW and riding the coattails of legitimate wrestling icons (Andre The Giant) to the top. He won two championships in 4 years, lasting a grand total of less than 4 months. Considering that he was around the main event picture during his “remarkable” WCW career, a twelfth of the time as champion is nothing to crow about really. More to the point, it’s barely “thriving” is it?

    WHITES WWF/E CARRER.

    IC may want you to believe that White’s WWF/E career was far less than his WCW career but he is wrong. In WCW, which I have tried to prove, White was nothing more than a walking gimmick and did nothing more than further the interests of Hollywood Hulk Hogan. Now, what I am going to to prove is that Paul White has thrived far more in his WWF/E career than he ever did in WCW. Since joining WWF/E in 1999, White has consistently been the most dominating and physically imposing character on the roster, the difference being that Vince McMahon and the WWE know how to book this man and have given him free reign on building a personality that shows that he is one of the finest sportsmen in the world. Under guidance from the WWE, Paul White has shown that he is more than just an pro-wrestler. Big Show has proven that he has everything it takes to crossover into the mainstream and is consistently the man that Vince McMahon will go to when he needs something done correctly.

    The Big Show has had an amazing WWF/E career which surpasses his career in WCW with relative ease. I am now going to try and prove why.

    Yes, you are correct, Big Show was thrown into the top feud in the WWF when he joined. You crowed about the entrance that he made into WCW and I only feel it is justified that I mention his entrance into WWF. The Big Show was thrust into the Stone Cold and Vince McMahon feud. This is the feud that people still talk about and how it had a huge part in shaping the Attitude Era and thus the most financially successful time in pro-wrestling history.

    What do you mean he was chokeslammed through the mat by The Undertaker because I remember that being a little bit differently:

    [youtube]vXZtitB4hMo[/youtube]

    So, The Big Show chokeslammed The Undertaker through the ring. The Big Show put one of the most dominant superstars through the WWF ring. By doing this, The Big Show created a moment that people will talk for ever. The Big Show has been creating moments that people will always remember since he joined the WWF/E.

    So, again, you are trying to push things under the rug that would be derisory for your side of the debate. The fact of the matter is that Big Show won the WWF championship against two of the most important people in the history of the WWF in Triple H and the Rock. The Big Show was on top of the pile of the best and most respected pro-wrestling corporation in the world. Who cares about who his title defences were against. The fact of the matter is that The Big Show has been on top of the mountain in the pro—wrestling world.

    Ah, yes. Wight dropped the title to the one of the most dominant people in the entire history of the WWF. Baring in mind that Triple H has been the WWF Champion 12 times in his career, it is barely a disgrace to drop a title to someone who has moulded his career on holding it.

    So, The Big Show was given a spot in the main event in the biggest pro-wrestling annual event and you have dismissed it because he was eliminated first!? Plenty of people have never even made the main event of Wrestlemania yet The Big Show has done it plenty of times. The Big Show has been part of some of the most diverse and fun moments of Wrestlemania.

    You are damn right, that was Wight’s most dominant moment in the WWF/E. White took the WWF/E Championship off of one of the greatest prospects to ever step through a ring. He also created more moments that will be hard to forget. I mean, who will forget this moment:

    [youtube]gqsVhYGQWCc[/youtube]

    Big Show has consistently proven that he is a superstar that can create the moments that really stick with people to the bitter end. I personally, will never forget the ring breaking because if the two biggest superstars in the WWE giving it everything. Big Show then dropped the title against Kurt Angle, who is the best wrestler to ever step through the ropes of a WWE ring. It’s nothing to be ashamed of in reality.

    So once again, the Big Show created some of the most talked about moments that the WWE have seen. Kurt Angle took him down with a fucking tranq gun. That was awesome! Another moment that proved that The Big Show is probably one of the most entertaining people in the WWE.

    The Wrestlemania match with Akebono proved that The Big Show is one of the most diverse and entertaining superstars that ever crossed a WWE ring. Akebono is a fucking sumo wrestler and not only that, he is the most dominant sumo wrestler ever! The Big Show proved that he can compete outside of a wrestling ring and proves that he is more than a wrestler. Vince has consistently used White as his cross-over superstar and used him to tap into the lucrative mainstream market. This is because White has the ability to fit into any angle easily. This is also the reason why he was put up against one of the best boxers ever and is also the reason that The Big Show has thrived and lasted so long in the WWE.

    The WWF/E stint was far better. Big Show, throughout his WWE tenure has always been the most dominant superstar on the roster in terms of stature and physical presence. In the WWF.E, he has shared the ring with people like Vince McMahon, Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho and Brock Lesnar. Compare that to being Hulk Hogan’s lackey in the nWo. I’d rather fight people like The Loch Ness Monster…

    The point is that Paul White has created a lasting legacy for himself as one of the most influential and dominant superstar in pro-wrestling. Vince McMahon has given him free reign to become one the most thriving fan favourites in pro-wrestling. White’s WCW run proved that he was a good superstar but White knew that he could do so much more and left for the bigger corporation. White has proven through his WWF.E career that he is the go-to-guy for Vince McMahon and has thrived under the guidance and leadership of McMahon. White has reached the top of the mountain in pro-wrestling with the WWE on more than one occasion and has proved time and time again that he is more dominant now than he ever was in the WCW, where his career was marred with gimmick matches, being a lackey to Hollywood Hogan and ridiculous feuds and angles.​
     
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  5. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    I knew this was going to be a tough debate. Thunderball is bringing it!

    I disagree. Completely. I think being forced out of action TWICE for being a fat slob and subsequently being knocked out by a 170-someodd lb Floyd Mayweather has stripped him of that title. I'd dare say men like Khali and Kane has replaced Show in that department. Mike Knox even has a better use of the mean streak Show used to have.

    I won't speak against Show's promo skills. When he is on his game, he's got it. I also recall Show being quite effective "on the stick" in WCW, but since he was always dealing with Hogan, his mic time was diminished. He's had more opportunity to work the mic in WWF, to his credit.

    The moonsault argument, I like to call it, "The Vader Effect." It's a marvel to see a 400+ lb athlete do a safe top rope backflip. Wight did it at one time. I mentioned it merely to illustrate just how far he's fallen in terms of athleticism and in-ring ability and versatility. Show brought his size and speaking skills to WWF, but he forget to pack his agility.

    Do you hold Sting to a lesser rating because he was once involved in a match and a storyling involving Robocop? Do you disqualify Triple H from the Hall of Fame because he once raped a corpse? Is Mark Henry no longer the World's Strongest Man because he once impregnated Mae Young with a human hand that germinated for all of two weeks?

    Plenty of all time greats have been the victims of some rough booking decisions. The difference is, with Wight in WCW, that lasted a few days and still culminated in a decent feud with the greatest pro wrestler of all time in Hulk Hogan. While he was in WWF, it usually kept going until he ended up feuding with guys like Carlito.

    That wasn't sillyness. They were trying to create a real drama there, with the son of Andre believing Hogan's wins over his father had crushed his Dad's spirit. That wasn't silly. It was certainly better than Big Boss Man having a fake cop tell Show that his real dad was dead, and then watching him fake cry.

    I never asked "Who?" I know exactly who he was. Loch Ness was actually "Giant Haystacks," one of the largest pro wrestlers in history outside of Happy Humphrey and Gorilla Monsoon. They brought him in to show that Wight could be dominant over a man BIGGER than him, not just always those SMALLER than him. It was a short but effective use of a guy whose only detriment was the fact that the booking team named him "Loch Ness."

    Who cares if he lost the title to Hogan? Just to BE the champion and then to lose to someone with Hogan's credentials! People talk about how The Undertaker is the only men in history to defeat Hogan twice for two separate World Titles. Do you know WHY that is such a big deal? Because it's Hulk Hogan! Wight in WCW carried on a good feud with Hogan, twice.

    Exactly, so Wight in WCW lost the title to a legitimate champion in Hogan, who was the most important figure to WCW's winning the Monday Night Wars for a couple years. He's kinda a big deal, no?

    Wrong again. Wight hasn't always been the most imposing character on the roster. He's had several stints outside of the top 3. On many occassions, Kane, Khali, Undertaker, and Brock Lesnar have managed to be more imposing, physically, even if Show was slightly bigger. And why? Probably because of the significant weight issues in the WWF and the fact thathe moved like a lummox.

    Winning the WCW World Title off Hogan in your first match > Screwing up by throwing your guys opponent through a steel cage, allowing him the win.

    From a kayfabe stance, of course.

    BTW, how long did he last in that "top feud?" Not very long before he began the first of his MANY MANY MANY heel/face/heel/face/heel/face/heel turns in the WWF/E.

    Guess I misread that one. Well, fair enough, but this just brings me to a new point, then - what exactly did he do with that "moment?" Very little. He was still Taker's bitch. In WCW, one of Show's big "moments" was twisting Hogan's neck and appearing to break it, mercilessly. What did he do with THAT moment...I seem to remember his winning the WCW World Title.

    I am sorry, but are you high? He won that match because Triple H and The Rock focused on each other. And even after Show won the belt, his title reign took a SIGNIFICANT back seat to the other feuds. In his first PPV after winning the title, Show wasn't even in the main event! He faced The Big Boss Man in the worst feud blow-off in championship history, while Triple H got top billing against Vince McMahon. Many say that Show's title defense was the WORST 4 MINUTES ON THE SHOW! Armageddon had Miss Kitty's crowd flash, Jericho beating Chyna, The Rock N Sock winning the tag titles, and Triple H vs McMahon. The WWF Title Match was given less time than a divas dance off. And why? Because nobody cared about Wight, Bossman, the feud, the match, or at that moment, the title.

    Sure thing he did. Triple H mercifully took the title off of him, ending the most worthless title reign in history. H's went on to defeat Cactus Jack in a classic match, and Wight was eliminated by The Rock in the Rumble Match.

    Yep, he just allowed his fat ass to be superplexed by the best athlete in the WWF at the time, and the ring collapsed. Way to go, Show, you just let Brock Lesnar toss your giant carcass onto the mat. Way to create a moment.

    Show was only in the main event at Wrestlemania 2000 because he was the 4th guy to be in the match, allowing all 4 McMahons to be there. NOBODY cared about him, and everybody KNEW he was the odd man out. He was eliminated so unceremoniously, and when he was gone, fans (including myself) universally felt that the match could now actually begin. Show looked so weak at that Wrestlemania, it's no wonder he started dancing in Rikishi garb.

    Vince did it because Wight couldn't get over any other way, and he wanted to try to do something to justify the money he was paying Wight's fat ass. So why not throw him in a sumo suit and watch him get legitimately bitch slapped, once again proving that when men such as Wight try their hand at activities that are legitimate sports, they will invariably be defeated. Thank God Brock Lesnar dispelled that in UFC.

    Wight was a major player in one of the biggest deals in the history of Pro Wrestling. At one time, the nWo was a hated faction consisting of THREE MEN - Hogan, Hall, and Nash. When Wight became the 4th men to defect, the stable became legitimate. He wasn't Hogan's lackey, rather, he had a major hand in the biggest angle in pro wrestling history.

    And T-Ball, I've noticed that you've accused me of ignoring points that harm my side of the debate, so let me ask you - why haven't you addressed Wight's weight problems in WWF? Why have you overlooked the points I've made several times about how he's been forced out of action to lose weight? Or the fact that he was only rehired after he dropped 100+ lbs during a LONG hiatus?

    I'd like to see what comes of that, because the fact remains, Show in WWF / WWE was little more than a liability in poor cardiovascular shape, and whose biggest contribution in the WWF was the worst WWF Title reign in history.
     
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  6. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    Yeah, you’re right man. Being knocked out by 6 men and the greatest puncher of all time in a feud that brought mainstream business to the WWE is stripping him of his stature. I would have to disagree with you on being replaced by other men. The hard thing about being a big man in the wrestling business is that you become very stale, very quickly. The Big Show has continually been changing his persona over the years but you know that he can still pull off the angry giant routine. I actually commend him for not being the stereotypical big man.

    You know as well as I do IC, that this particular part of the feud is completely illogical and ridiculous. You also know as well as I do that disqualifying someone from the Hall of Fame and taking a legitimate title away from someone because of the decisions that people have made for them is stupid. All we are talking about is the believability of storylines that were being put over by White and WCW. I am not trying to take anything away from him, all I am saying is that this particular angle hurt White’s “thriving” WCW career more than it helped.

    I completely agree with you about people suffering from poor booking. I am not going to sit here and pretend to be an expert on WCW history but I know enough that not every single one of White’s feuds in WCW culminated in a World Championship title shot. White suffered some poor feuds in WCW, just as much as he has done in his WWE tenure.

    So you are defending the creation of drama in the WCW but you are crushing it when it comes to the WWE? WCW were trying to create drama with the Andre storyline and WWE were trying to get the Big Boss Man over as a legitimate heel and created a really personal drama for White. I fail to see you logic here.

    Sorry, first of all I never meant to question you knowledge on wrestling. It was my writing mistake and I apologise. I will get onto the actual point at hand though. Yeah, it was a shot feud and it went absolutely nowhere. You are trying to legitimise this feud as being good for White when in reality it wasn’t. WCW had plenty of big guys that they could have put him up against but they decided to pair him up with Loch Ness. I don’t need any reminding about who he is either but the fact of the matter was that White was taking a back seat.

    Both of these feuds making him look like Hogan’s bitch. White was never on the same level as Hogan in WCW. People may try and fool themselves into thinking that just because Show was feuding with Hogan over the title belt, he was on a similar level. This could not be further from the truth. White was only holding the title until Hogan wanted to take it back.

    I have to respectfully disagree. I remember Kane and The Big Show having a tag team feud at one point and the Big Show coming out on top. In fact he won the tag title twice as part of this feud. The same goes for the Great Khali. I remember them having a feud too, which I completely marked out for btw. I also remember him coming out on top of that feud too. As for Lesnar, he took the WWE title away from him, need I say more!? Vince uses him to have big man feuds and more often than not, he comes out on top.

    All this tells me is that White, over his long and industrious WWE career has had the ability to swith back and forth between heel and face personas without any real detriment to his actual wrestling persona. You don’t find many people who can switch seamlessly between the two alignments with the ease that White can.

    That particular moment was in a title match which White should have won in reality, the referee stopped it because he went throught the ring and Taker retained. Where exactly could he go after that? This led to a great feud anyway because Taker and Big Show teamed up and won the tag titles, TWICE. So, that’s what he done with that moment.

    Just a little bit.

    Does it matter!? The way I see it is that Big Show was on top of the mountain. I have seen times when the WWE title takes a back seat to the bigger feuds that are going on at the time. I mean, it’s Triple H vs. Vince McMahon, one of the most intriguing and important feuds in the entire history of the WWE. The point is that White was the WWE champion and this means so much more than you are giving it credit for. It may have been a poor match but it matters very little. When you get to the point of defending your WWE title on a worldwide PPV, you are thriving in the business and there are people who haven’t accomplished the honour. Try and write off if you will but ijn my eyes, it’s still a title reign on the best pro-wrestling production in the world.

    What!? Jut because he was the one who was on the receiving end of one of the moments, that makes it any less of a moment? Would you say the same about Mick Foley after he was chokeslammed through a cage and then through the ring? Would you say that he allowed his fat ass to be thrown through a cage and then the mat? If so, that is ridiculous because it takes more than one person to create a moment. The Big Show was integral to the success of that moment. If it was any other man, it would have been less believable and wouldn’t have worked.

    It matters very little that he was eliminated first. He was still there. As I said, many a great wrestler have never main evented Wrestlemania, look at Mick Foley. As you said previously, people do suffer from poor booking and the dressing up angle was just another example of this. The Big Show was in WCW for 4 years though and had to suffer this compared to the 10 years he has been in WWE.

    Yeah, he wanted to justify the wages he was paying The Big Show in comparison to the 20 bucks he threw Mayweather’s ass huh!? It’s not about money, it’s about the angle being believable and no one could have pulled it off like the Big Show did. The same goes for the sumo gimmick. Show has proved time and time again that he can be more than just a big man and I personally loved the Mayweather storyline. Mayweather is the best boxer in the world and Big Show got to step into the ring with him in a sport that was out of his element. I believe that Show and Mayweather was a huge draw for that PPV and showed once more that Big Show can thrive in the angles that WWE put him in.

    I’m not dodging it anymore. It is no secret that Big Show has had weight problems in the past but every time he has been called on it, he has come back and showed that he is a top athlete. It’s not easy to come back time after time and go back to being a great sportsman. The Big Show has proven what a great athlete he is by coming back. Let us not forget that he has a pituitary problem that makes his growth a problem. It means that he can not get the weight off as easily as others and he has done well to combat it in his career.

    Let me ask you this, IC. If he was still in WCW, do you think he would not have had the same problems with his weight?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Thanks man. You too. This is a great challenge for me.
     
    #6
  7. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    It's one thing to "change your persona." It's another thing entirely to incessantly flip-flop around between face and heel because nothing seems to work the way it's supposed to.

    And the Mayweather thing? Come on, now, cheated or not this was still the 2nd Wrestlemania in which Show lost a match to a non-wrestler. Bam Bam Bigelow STILL gets shit for Lawrence Taylor, but we're letting Show off the hook for losing to Mayweather and Akebono?

    Here's a parallel - in this past year's WrestleZone Forums Tournament, Edge got all the way to the finals because of a well assembled campaign by Will, often highlighted by the argument that "Edge is smarter." If Show wasn't prepared for Mayweather's bodyguards to interfere, that is, if he wasn't prepared for it, then it proves that smarts has a place in wrestling psychology, and that the WWF/E era Paul "Big Show" Wight was devoid of it.

    Some facts to draw a distinct parallel:

    In WCW:

    1. Paul "The Giant" Wight was placed into the biggest feud with the biggest name in pro wrestling history - Hulk Hogan. He subsequently won the WCW World Title in his first ever match in a major promotion.

    2. In 1996, his rookie year with WCW, Wight won the PWI Rookie of the Year Award AND the Wrestler of the Year Award. He beat out Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, and Ahmed Johnson for Wrestler of the Year, and some guy named Rocky Maivia in 1996 for the Rookie title. Wrestling Observer ALSO names Wight Rookie of the Year in 1996.

    3. Again in 1996, Wight won the 2nd Annual "World War 3" contest to become #1 contender for the World Title.

    In WWF/E:

    1. Paul "Big Show" Wight debuted in the biggest storyline in the WWF, and debuted opposite the biggest star in the WWF - Steve Austin. He subsequently threw Austin out of the cage, giving Austin the win over McMahon. Shortly thereafter, he was a part of a short lived stable.

    2. In 1999, the year of Wight's first WWF Title run, Wrestling Observer awarded Wight "Worst Feud of the Year" honors with his abortion against the Big Boss Man. Furthermore, in 2001 and 2002, the same publication named Big Show "Worst Wrestler." Adding insult, he was also 2002's "Most Embarassing Wrestler."

    3. Big Show has been the last man eliminated in TWO Royal Rumbles. He was tossed by The Rock in 2000 and by Benoit in 2004. He also lost a shot to even be IN the 2003 Rumble, losing a qualifying match to Lesnar.

    So there you have it. In WCW, Wight was a decorated athlete who thrived in clutch, pressure situations. In WWF, he was an embarassing choke artist.

    He had one bad feud in WCW - the Loch Ness feud - which was short lived and designed simply to put Wight over. He was usually feuding with either Hogan, Nash, or Goldberg. That's a pretty damn impressive run.

    In WWF, it was such a joke. It was ridiculous. The acting was horrible, and that is why the feud was named the worst feud of the year. I am not saying the concept of the WWF feud was bad, just the execution. Had Wight, Boss Man, and the supporting cast done a better job of selling the feud, I wouldn't rail against it.

    Don't apologize. It's a debate. You were trying to make your point. What happens in the Debators League STAYS in the debators league. You won't offend me. Come with it.

    Dude, NOBODY was on Hogan's level in WCW. At least not for the entire run. Sting was for a short time, and Goldberg was for a short time. But wire to wire, nobody even came close to Hogan. At least Wight can say that he was at least in Hogan's ball park for the 3+ years he was there!

    When you can't remember what happened during each run, or you can't remember whether a wrestler was a face or a heel during a particular time, it's not "seemless transition." It's hopeless flip-flopping. Big Show didn't get over as a face, so they'd turn him heel. He got stale as a heel, so they turned him face. Rinse and repeat.

    The effective transition of face-to-heel-to-face-to-heel can be seen best by looking at Chris Jericho and The Undertaker. Each time they made the change, it was effective, well developed, and meaningful. Wight's constant turns was just a reaction to how fast he became stale in WWE.

    Does it matter that Show's first WWF Title reign and subsequent feud are largely considered the worst in history? YES IT MATTERS! The Show vs Boss Man feud didn't just take a back seat to HHH / McMahon, it also took a back seat to Jericho / Chyna and several others mid card feuds. It was an abhorration! You're damn right that matters.

    IT DOES? Wow, and here I am, thinking matches and in-ring product are actually important to professional wrestling. What have I been doing with my life?

    Point taken, though I maintain it's easier to be superplexed than to be slammed blindly through a cage or tossed off the top of it onto a table. But your point is fair. Moving on...

    The point isn't just Main Eventing or being a part of Wrestlemania. The point is being RELEVANT.

    And correct me if I am wrong, but did you just say that Mick Foley didn't Main Event a Wrestlemania? Let's go to the video tape...

    Wow, yes you did. Dude, Foley was in the SAME Wrestlemania 2000 match that Show was eliminated first in! So Foley HAS main evented Wrestlemania, only in the build up to that match, he was relevant. Show was tossed in there as a way to get Shane McMahon involved, but he was largely useless. The prospect of Foley winning and retiring the WWF Champion was, at the time, a very real possibility. The only Wrestlemania at which Big Show was relevant was when he was embarassed by Mayweather.

    Mayweather was the only reason that angle drew. Same with Trump - McMahon didn't make that angle, Trump did. And all it showed me is that, when you want an established name in a cross-over feud and you don't want to embarass the real big stars, just send in the Big Show.

    And a few months later balooned back up to his pregnancy weight...

    He had that fixed a LONG time ago, unlike Andre, who died with the malady. And you're making excuses for him. It means he needs to work HARDER to accomplish the feat. I am not saying he needs John Morrison's abs, but come on...

    Irrelevant, party of one. Would you like your usual table, sir?

    If he was still in WCW, we wouldn't be having THIS debate, would we? If you feel the need to use conjecture and speculation in the absence of facts, then maybe you should have picked the other side - the correct side - of the issue.

    New point: I didn't say a negative thing about the Hogan / Giant Monster Truck rally on the roof. I only laughed at the whole falling of the building thing. The Monster Truck stunt was a crossover attempt, similar to the Mayweather and Akebono boxing stunts. The difference? The Giant looked strong amidst the truck deal, whereas he looked weak in the Mayweather and Akebono deals. The Monster trucks was WCW's way of appealing to their target market in the South.
     
    #7
  8. Dave

    Dave Administrator
    Staff Member Administrator

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    You say that nothing has een working but I assure you th persona of the Big Show has remained the same. Even now, The Big Show is one of the most interesting characters on the roster and again, is the go to guy. Vince needs more people like the Big Show, in my view. A man who can instantly step into a feud and be as dominating and imposing as ever. Even, is this feud is for the tag team titles.

    Yeah, fair enough. Except that The Big Show was competing out fo his element. As far as I know, the Bam Bam Bigelow was a legitimate wrestling match that he lost cleanly. The match with Mayweather was not. Firstly, 6 guys attacking him, in what seemed like a boxing match and losing in a sumo match to the best sumo wrestler ever. The case with Bigelow is completely different, my friend.

    Are you telling me that The Big Show should have been prepared for 6 guys to jump into the ring and put a beating on him? Man, it was a jumping, people don't expect shit like that. If I was the Big Show and I was taking on Floyd Mayweather in what seemed like a boxing match, I would be more worried about my face than people interfering.

    Fair enough.

    Also, fair enough.

    Your right but lets look at some of the names he has feuded with in his WWE career: Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Triple H, The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Chris Jericho and The Undertaker. These men are the cream of the crop for WWE and are just as much of icons as Nash or Goldberg ever were. In terms of the names the Big Show has been decimating for the last 15 years, WWE is significantly more than WCW.

    Perhaps.

    Please, White wasn't even in the same state as Hogan, never mind ball park. When I go back and watch the feud now, one thing is abundantly clear, Hogan was always in control. White was only holding that belt to get over and as soon as that was accomplished, they took it back off him and gave it to Hogan once more. White was a sham in WCW, living off people's legacy and title runs that meant nothing.

    Maybe but isn't that the exact same thing that happens with every wrestler? I mean, look at Bret Hart. Bret Hart was supposed to be the ultimate face but he got stale and turned heel. Everyone changes alignment now and again. Big Show has been unlucky that none of the alignments he has used have ever really gotten over. I mean, if it was me and I was fading into obscurity with a gimmick that isn't working, I would change it too. He has been unlucky that he still hasn't found his niche yet.

    Yeah, whereas in WCW, White was almost entirely a face. The thing you are missing is that, each time White has changed alignment people have boo'd and cheered accordingly. When he was face, people were really behind him and when he is heel, which he is now, people hate him. The Big Show can pull off alignment changes just like the best of them. In WCW he never really had the chance.

    I wouldn't say he was embarrassed by Mayweather. In fact, I would say that he came off looking as though he had been cheated more than anything. It's like saying that Jeff Hardy was embarrassed by CM Punk at The Bash because CM Punk cheated. Nah, The Big Show looked very good for most of match and the only reason he lost was to turn him face afterwards. Call it smarts of whatever you like, no one can deal with 6 men and come out looking like a million dollars.

    Would it have worked it they had sent in Rey Mysterio? No, The Big Show being put in that match with Mayweather was the only way that feud could have worked. If they had put any other man and I mean any other man into that feud, it would not have worked. The Bog Show was the only person that could have made that storyline work.

    Actually a pituitary problem like the one the Big Show had makes it very hard to keep your weight stable. It's not an excuse, I am not even trying to excuse him from the fact that he sometimes has weight issues. All I am trying to prove to you is that it wasn't a huge deal. Every time that he has had a weight issue, he was worked like a saint in getting it off, which is noe mean feat. Every time he has came back and been more dominant in the ring that ever. The Big Show is and forever will be, one of the most imposing people in the WWE. He is treading a fine line between imposing and ballooning all the time.


    I beg to differ. The Big Show came out of the Mayweather feud so strong it was unreal. The people were behind him for a while and then he started using the boxing gimmick that knocked people out with one punch. All this came about during the feud with Mayweather and again proves that The Big Show is one of the most dominating people in the WWE. For the most part, all the feuds that the Big Show has done have came across well. He has never looked abundantly weak.
     
    #8
  9. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    Well, that's a relief. Now that I have your assurance, I can rest easier. :)

    Anybody who gets placed into a program with Chris Jericho now-a-days become interesting. Working with Jericho is like instant career revival right now, which is exactly why that decision was made. Not because Show is the best option, but because he needs to remain somewhat relevant.

    I thought he wanted to stay in business...

    Great point. Of course, Bam Bam was wrestling an unorthodox opponent for whom he would have no hopes of preparing for, but yes, that is true, Bigelow lost a wrestling match to a football player. However...

    It "seemed" like a boxing match, but it wasn't. It was a wrestling match. It was really a glorified MMA bout. And 425-lb Show lost to a 170-lb boxer in a wrestling match.

    Considering those 6 guys went with Mayweather EVERYWHERE he went, you're damn right if I were Big Show I'd be wondering if the entourage was going to get involved. That's like saying The Ultimate Warrior would have had no way of knowing that General Adnan and Colonel Mustafa would be a factor when he droppped the WWF title to Sgt. Slaughter at the Royal Rumble.

    Thank you.

    Also, thank you.

    Wight was in WCW for three and a half years. As you've astutely pointed out, he's been in WWF/E for 15. Naturally, a guy his size is going to see action against the top dogs you listed, but in that time he's also had abysmal feuds with Big Boss Man, Carlito, and many other glorified mid-card jobbers. In WCW, the ONLY blip on Wight's radar was the Loch Ness feud, which I already explained was put in place to make sure people realized that Wight was a legitimate Giant and not just a bully. Other than those 2 or so weeks, Wight spent his entire WCW career in the ring with the Hogans, Nashes, Goldbergs, and Flairs.

    He had a 1-2 record against Hogan, all three matches for the WCW World Title. The only other guy I can think of who has had three major World Title Matches with Hogan was The Undertaker, who was 2-1 against Hogan. Maybe Savage has had 3 World Title Matches with Hogan, I don't have the time to look that up now.

    As was the case with almost ALL of Hogan's feuds in WWF and in WCW.

    You mean the way Show has lived off Mayweather's name, Shaq's infamy, and Jericho's ability as of late? And by "title runs that mean nothing" are you comparing them to Hogan and Goldbergs runs in WCW? Or are you doing the right thing and comparing them to Show's useless reign leading up to Wrestlemania 2000?

    He didn't get stale. Even during the turn, fans were stil 50/50 because they didn't want to believe that their hero was becoming a bad guy. Bret did what he did because Michaels was the top face in the company and Bret wanted to help develop Austin.

    And it seems Show in WWF changed weekly.

    Exactly! So each of the 12 some-odd times Show faded into obscurity in WWF, he's made the change. Precisely right!

    That's okay, it's only been 15 years. He just needs time. Like Bob "Hardcore Sparky Plugg" Holly.

    Wight didn't need as many turns in WCW because he got over and stuck with it. And Show isn't even remotely in the league of guys like Jericho, Michaels, Hart, and Undertaker in terms of making the turns work. Sure, fans still do what they are supposed to, but do you really think they care about Show much of the time?

    Is Hardy a 450-lb giant with 20 years of wrestling experience? Is CM Punk a Walterweight boxer who'd never wrestled before? Moving on...

    How long did THAT face turn last? 3 weeks? And wasn't this just a couple months after Show threw Rey Mysterio into a ring post while he was on a stretcher? Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that 3 turns in less than 6 months?

    Right. Because Show can't draw with Mysterio. He needs a novelty. Like Mayweather. Without Mayweather, Show may not have even been on the card.

    Do you know where he was regularly featured on PPV cards? WCW.

    Big enough deal that Show had to be told to go to OCW to work on conditioning. Never happened in WCW.

    Don't beg, it makes you look weak. Stand up...

    So strong that his next feud was with The Great Khali, whom he wrestled at Backlash in the third match on the card. So strong that he wasn't even on the card for the following PPV, Judgement Day. So strong that he needed a Singapore Cane Match to win the #1 contendership to the ECW title against Punk, Morrison, Miz, and Dreamer. So strong that he went on to LOSE that title match to...Mark Henry. Yep, you're right. Unreal.

    They did that because 4 people were using the chokeslam. Undertaker got Hell's Gate, Big Show got...a punch. AWESOME.
     
    #9
  10. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Clarity of debate- 1 point
    I usually like an opening statement from both posters just to get your stance early on in the debate. IC gets this point for that, and because of his better formatting skills.

    Punctuality- 1 point
    One hell of a debate, and the punctuation point is almost a sad part to have to give away to IC, because there was a time in the debate that TB had a 24 hours gap.

    Informative- 1 point
    Sometimes you silly boys seem to think that judges don't know the history of wrestling. Miscuing data and all of that. IC was a big culprit of that, so I give this point to TB.

    Emotionality- 1 point
    I like IC's debating style. He is very punch you in the face about it. He did it to TB here again, like Mayweather did to the big show.

    Persuasion- 1 point
    I am sorry that I haven't wrote a lot here guys. This debate was extremely well. I just have been falling behind and want to get all the debates done as soon as possible. When I came into this argument, I believed that Big Show>The Giant. But coming out, I really think it was the other way around. IC gets this point.

    TM rates this 4 points IC to 1 points TB.
     
    #10
  11. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    Congratulations IC. You deserve the win here.
     
    #11
    Mr. TM likes this.
  12. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    You pushed me to the limit bro.
     
    #12
  13. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity - Dave, although you're no longer in this, if you decide to enter another Debater's League in the future, always remember to provide an opening argument.

    Point: IrishCanadian25

    Punctuality - See TM's post.

    Point: IrishCanadian25

    Informative - If you misuse (or manipulate) your evidence/information, then, in my opinion, it is on your opponent to bring this misuse (or manipulation) to light. I'm giving the point to IrishCanadian25 here.

    Point: IrishCanadian25

    Emotionality - Dave, you kept your cool in this debate, and that's a hard thing to do sometimes given whom you were facing. I commend you for that.

    Point: Dave

    Persuasion - Although I'm of the opinion that Paul Wight had had a better career in WWE, and although I thought you did a great job in your rebuttals, Dave, an opening argument is essential to getting this point.

    Point: IrishCanadian25

    tdigle's Score

    IrishCanadian25 - 4
    Dave - 1
     
    #13
  14. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: IC had his opening argument written out clearly and kept it going. Dave sort of went right into it, taking away his opener.

    Point: IC25

    Punctuality: What TM said.

    Point: IC25

    Informative: I have to agree with TM on this, IC made a few mistakes that I would think he should know. I mean it is IC right?

    Point: Dave

    Emotionality: Dave was calm, cool and collect, but IC was in his face with quite a few right hooks.

    Point: IC25

    Persuasion: I really have to think that IC won this debate with his opening post. I think if Dave had started out the same, and then did his rebuttal, I would have went with Dave. But he didn't just make the point of Wight's accomplishments as an argument, rather as a rebuttal.

    Point: IC25

    CH David scores this IC25 4, Dave 1.
     
    #14
  15. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: IC, for pretty much the same reasons as stated

    Point: IC25

    Punctuality: Something about a 24 hour gap?

    Point: IC25

    Informative: Dave for this one, good use of facts and shit

    Point: Dave

    Emotionality: Both your styles worked for you, so I am gonna do a split pointer.

    Point: Split

    Persuasion: IC's argument was more persuasive, even if a few liberties were taken. So he gets the point here.

    Point: IC25

    My score
    IC - 3.5
    Dave - 1.5
     
    #15

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