WCW Region, Third Round: Embarrassment Match: (4) Kurt Angle vs. (5) Mick Foley

[Thriller Ant]

Kurt Angle was known for making a huge transition from amateur to pro wrestling and adapted quite well, eventually becoming one of the top talent in little to no time. Who's to say Kurt Angle wouldn't know how to apply a submission move he has seen been applied to many other wrestlers in the past?

That's the thing: you can't see how to apply the move because Foley's fingers are in the guy's mouth. You could watch 100 videos of the Mandible Claw and still have no idea how to do it. It takes 2 seconds to figure out how to do an ankle lock.

Mick Foley has a threshold for pain? Sure. Kurt Angle wrestled in the main-event of WrestleMania 19 with an injured neck, got surgery, returned in less than 3 months and won the WWE title. Kurt Angle's also been in two Iron-Man matches, won the only Armageddon Hell in a Cell which featured two of the masters of the cell in Triple H and Undertaker and wrestled Steve Austin to the point where Austin had no choice but to get disqualified at SummerSlam 2001. Kurt Angle can endure his fair share of pain.

Cactus Jack and Mankind are laughing at that.

I don't see a valid argument to vote Foley over Angle, this assumption that Angle won't know how to apply Foley's finisher just doesn't hold up. Kurt Angle's a quick learner and can adapt to situations faster than most wrestlers, as he has shown time and time again throughout his career.

The Mandible Claw isn't a wrestling hold like the other stuff Angle had to learn. Unless you have someone explicitly show you how to use the move, it takes a bunch of trial and error to figure it out, during which Foley can bite Angle's fingers until they are useless.

 

[Papa Pillman]

I think the given finishers are a huge factor here.

The Angle Slam works perfect for Angle because, like a lot of his suplex heavy offense, Angle is built with quick strong wrestling hips that allow him to grab and snap off this slam almost instantly from tough angles. Foley on the other hand would have a far more dificult time setting up Angle into a position to get him cleanly around with this style of throw. Angle would utilize his years of well honed wrestling defense to protect from being caught in his maneuver.

On the other hand, to execute the claw, a wrestler merely needs an instant to sink his hand into his opponent's gullet, an opportunity that Angle could repeatedly create against Foley until he was able to sink it in.

Angle gets the win here with an advantageous stipulation.

 

[Con T.]

On the other hand, to execute the claw, a wrestler merely needs an instant to sink his hand into his opponent's gullet, an opportunity that Angle could repeatedly create against Foley until he was able to sink it in.

.... You haven't really bothered to read the thread, have you?

I'll sum up the points you're woefully missing here.

1. Mandible claw is a nerve hold, meant to render the victim (temporarily) paralyzed and eventually unconscious, because of said nerve hold.

2. Said nerve hold requires a nerve to be attacked/targeted. It isn't just sticking your hand down a throat... You have to hit a nerve.

3. The only living person aware of how to effectively hit this nerve, thereby making the hold effective, and making it so your fingers don't just get bitten the fuck off?

The same guy Angle's facing.

Also, it's a slam off of your shoulders. Foley would be screwed if it was an ankle lock; it's a slam where Mick is falling with him.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Erm... Hornswoggle has performed the Mandible Claw with no training, doubt that makes it the toughest maneuver in history.

Mick Foley had a great career but even in his title runs he was used as enhancement (firstly to put the Rock over as a vicious SOB main eventer and then to transition the belt from Austin to Triple H) which is why he never reached a month with a belt. Kurt Angle was a staple in the WWF main event scene for well over five years holding World gold for over a year of that spell.

Foley's most famous matches end with him losing, this'll be no different.

 

[Con T.]

Erm... Hornswoggle has performed the Mandible Claw with no training, doubt that makes it the toughest maneuver in history.

So you mean a guy Mick Foley was friendly with, and who Mick would probably tell how to use the mandible claw, used a move Mick probably taught him how to use?

Great; maybe Kurt can track Hornswoggle down and learn it from him

Mick Foley had a great career but even in his title runs he was used as enhancement (firstly to put the Rock over as a vicious SOB main eventer and then to transition the belt from Austin to Triple H) which is why he never reached a month with a belt. Kurt Angle was a staple in the WWF main event scene for well over five years holding World gold for over a year of that spell.

Everything you said about Kurt could also be said Mick. Except the talent that Mick puts over goes to the main event.

The talent Kurt Angle puts over gets fired in a year.

Foley's most famous matches end with him losing, this'll be no different.

Um, so do Kurt's, and they're far less famous than Mick's.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

So you mean a guy Mick Foley was friendly with,

Objection, supposition! Where is there any record of a friendship prior?

and who Mick would probably tell how to use the mandible claw, used a move Mick probably taught him how to use?

So... Foley decides to pass on this move (comparable to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to learn) to a Leprechaun who rarely competes and who is so thankful of the gift that he hasn't used it since?

Great; maybe Kurt can track Hornswoggle down and learn it from him

Maybe... it's as feasible as Mick teaching him it in the first place.

Everything you said about Kurt could also be said Mick. Except the talent that Mick puts over goes to the main event.

In his 1,462 days full time in the WWF (April 1, 1996 - April 2, 2000), Foley held World gold for a total of 47 days (3.21%). In his 2459 days full time in the WWF (November 14, 1999 - August 8, 2006), Angle held World gold for 385 days (15.66%).

And during these respective careers Kurt was winning (and, yes, losing) said belts to established guys while Mick was used to enhance the Rock and Triple H from midcard talent. So Mick's two one-on-one title wins were over, a yet unproven, Rock.

Kurt's were over 5 time champion Rock, 5 time champ Austin, 2 time champ Big Show, well established former champ Lesnar and 4 time WCW champ Booker T.

The talent Kurt Angle puts over gets fired in a year.

So you're taking Kurt's time in TNA as his prime? Fine, what's good for the goose, he defeated Foley everytime he faced him in TNA.

Um, so do Kurt's, and they're far less famous than Mick's.

Really, Kurt's most famous moments are him losing matches? Please, expand...

 

[LSN80]

Foley has never submitted in his career, and while trapped in Ken Shamrock's ankle lock, he put the Mandible Claw on himself so that he would pass out. And he wouldn't have to worry about Angle applying the ankle lock, as Angle would have to win with the Mandible Claw.

Further, the Angle Slam would be much easier to hit then Foley's Mandible Claw would be to apply. The Angle Slam is one of the easiest moves to hit along with Cena's AA, so Foley would have an advantage there as well.

Having said that, I still think the match goes to Angle. Rarely is a 3-count gotten from the Angle Slam, and I don't believe Foley hits it more than once. And this isn't said that ones finishing moves can't be used before using their opponent's finisher on them, and I think Kurt does exactly that. He wears Foley down and grapevines his leg with the ankle lock(as he's done in the past when both were past their primes in TNA), and then applies the mandible claw to a weakened Foley, who passes out.

Angle wins this.

 

[The Brain]

Foley has never submitted in his career, and while trapped in Ken Shamrock's ankle lock, he put the Mandible Claw on himself so that he would pass out.

And I thought I was going to be the first one to bring up this match. You beat me again LSN.

A couple people are using the argument that the mandible claw is too difficult for Angle to use. I'm not buying it. It's really pretty simple. I used to question the legitimacy of this move so I was stupid enough to try it on myself before and guess what...it hurts like hell. Now since I was doing it to myself I wasn't putting a lot of pressure on and even though I have no experience it still hurt a lot. I don't think Angle will have a problem applying this hold. Foley doesn't have to submit. Once Angle has him trapped Foley will be too proud to quit and eventually pass out.

 

[HBsam31]

No way can I not vote for Kurt here. Foley got past AJ Styles, but he is not beating Kurt Angle I don't care what the stipulation is. Kurt is a submission expect. He would figure the Mandible Claw out. Kurt moves on.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

The rules doesn't say anything about the finisher actually having to be effective in order to win the match, it just has to be used. Sticking your hand into someones mouth is far easier than the Angle Slam. Knowing Kurt he'll just jam his fist into Foley's mouth like a $10 hooker and shout "Mandible Claw!" and ding ding ding, winner Angle.

This.

I'm not doubting that Mick Foley would be able to pick up Angle, I'm doubting his ability to be technically-savvy enough to get Angle in a position where he'd be able to hit the Olympic Slam without Kurt reversing or preventing it from happening. You can say the same thing for Mick Foley and I agree (check next paragraph), but Angle is a master of mat-wrestling (to which his gold medals provide as proof) and would make it much more difficult for Foley to even set-up the Slam.

Angle is a master of submissions as well, who has taken out many people with the Ankle Lock. He would be able to figure out a way to execute and apply the Mandible Claw without many problems. Sure, Foley can bite his fingers off and I know he would do something like that but considering Angle won those aforementioned gold medals with a broken neck, I'm pretty sure a couple of fingers don't matter all that much to Angle. Angle and Foley haven't know to be the most sanest individuals in the wrestling business.

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EDIT:

Just in case you need extra proof, let me take a step-by-step comparison of what it takes for each man to apply the other's finishing move. Let's assume, for all intents and purposes, that the other is groggy enough for one of the wrestlers to begin the finisher.

Executing the Angle Slam:

Step 1: Get behind or to the side of Kurt Angle.
Step 2: Get a firm grasp of his leg and arm.
Step 3: Lift and rotate mid-air
Step 4: Bring him home for the slam, driving Angle into the canvas

Executing the Mandible Claw:

Step 1: Shove your hand in Mick Foley's mouth

See the difference?

With the Angle Slam, you have to: position, grab, hoist & slam. It's not many steps but more compared to the Claw, which only requires the grab. There is no hoist or slam, and positioning is practically at any point. You can be in front, behind, on the ground, mid-flight... it doesn't matter. The Mandible Claw isn't restricted to any position whereas the Angle Slam doesn't have that restriction. There are multiple ways to perform the Slam but not unlimited like the Claw.

Hopefully, that clears up some things.

-----------------------------------


So yeah, the Mandible Claw is easier for Angle to apply on Foley than it is for Mick to get Kurt in a position to drop him for the Slam.

Angle wins.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Well, that's the other, unspoken issue for the Angle contingency, that we may as well get out in the open.

Mick Foley's endurance to pain. In his prime, Mick Foley never legitimately tapped out. He never lost a match by submission (until he went to TNA, of course. Or once, when the move of submission was one applied by himself, to not tap out.). In fact, the whole premise of the Mankind character is that he never quits.

Now, I know that I'm going to be pointed to the Hogan/Taker tapes of them submitting...

1. Neither were in their prime.

2. Mankind has a higher threshold for pain.

So, Angle's who chances lie on his ability to render Foley unconscious. Good luck with that. I'm not saying it can't happen... It's just incredibly difficult.



Two of his set up moves were the piledriver and the double arm DDT, both which wind up impacting the nervous system, much in the way whiplash would.

Angle's suplexes could cause that, but as stated, Angle's going to have to hit a fucking ton of suplexes. Yeah, Mankind focused on the nervous system before applying the hold.

I get that while neither Taker, Hogan or Foley were in their prime when it happened, the record books show Angle as one of the few/only people to make these guys tap.

However, this is the same Angle who made both Austin and Lesnar tap in their primes. Previously Austin passed out to Hart (nice), tapped out to the 2 Chris' when they combined their submissions (very nice spot) but Angle did by himself what 3 other submissions specialists couldn't do - made Austin tap by himself.

While Lesnar did tap to Benoit in an SD match, the ref doing his usual "ouch, a tentative slap! That's me dead for a few minutes now" spot meant that it didn't count. When Angle made Lesnar tap, it was in a ME match at Summerslam after Vince tried to screw Angle. If there is one man who can make opponents submit, it is Angle.



On to your other point, Foley is a heavy guy. He can use this to his benefit, and did, but it would surely work him against him when he's up against a suplexing bastard like Angle. Once Angle gets him started on a German arc and past the point where Foley can stop him, Foleys own weight is going to help Angles momentum and hurt Foley. I'm not however, saying this is going to be easy for Angle to maintain but whenever Angle hit multiple suplexes on bigger/heavier guys, it wore them down quite a lot.

Angle will definitely know he's been in a fight after this match though.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Just in case you need extra proof, let me take a step-by-step comparison of what it takes for each man to apply the other's finishing move. Let's assume, for all intents and purposes, that the other is groggy enough for one of the wrestlers to begin the finisher.

Executing the Angle Slam:

Step 1: Get behind or to the side of Kurt Angle.
Step 2: Get a firm grasp of his leg and arm.
Step 3: Lift and rotate mid-air
Step 4: Bring him home for the slam, driving Angle into the canvas

Executing the Mandible Claw:

Step 1: Shove your hand in Mick Foley's mouth

See the difference?

With the Angle Slam, you have to: position, grab, hoist & slam. It's not many steps but more compared to the Claw, which only requires the grab. There is no hoist or slam, and positioning is practically at any point. You can be in front, behind, on the ground, mid-flight... it doesn't matter. The Mandible Claw isn't restricted to any position whereas the Angle Slam doesn't have that restriction. There are multiple ways to perform the Slam but not unlimited like the Claw.

Hopefully, that clears up some things.

-----------------------------------

I think you missed a crucial step in applying the Mandible Claw

Step 2: Beat your opponent so senseless that they can't put up a resistance to you sticking your fingers down their throat.

I mean seriously. You have a detailed setup for the Angle Slam, which is fine. But you treat something like sticking your fingers down another human beings throat unwillingly to be a piece of cake.

If that is so easy... I dare you to go try it on someone and report back here on how you do.

In both cases, you're going to have each guy fighting like hell to get out of position the second either attempts to use the finish and go for the win. Angle's going to have to beat Foley like he's rarely been beaten before before he can use the claw. I think in the end he'd do it, and I voted Angle over Foley because at the end of the day, Mick's the guy that will not only put someone over, but he'll make Angle more relevant than he's been in years while doing so. But there would be nothing about winning this match that would be 'simple'.

 

[Con T.]

This.

I'm not doubting that Mick Foley would be able to pick up Angle, I'm doubting his ability to be technically-savvy enough to get Angle in a position where he'd be able to hit the Olympic Slam without Kurt reversing or preventing it from happening. You can say the same thing for Mick Foley and I agree (check next paragraph), but Angle is a master of mat-wrestling (to which his gold medals provide as proof) and would make it much more difficult for Foley to even set-up the Slam.

Angle is a master of submissions as well, who has taken out many people with the Ankle Lock. He would be able to figure out a way to execute and apply the Mandible Claw without many problems. Sure, Foley can bite his fingers off and I know he would do something like that but considering Angle won those aforementioned gold medals with a broken neck, I'm pretty sure a couple of fingers don't matter all that much to Angle. Angle and Foley haven't know to be the most sanest individuals in the wrestling business.

-----------------------------------

EDIT:

Just in case you need extra proof, let me take a step-by-step comparison of what it takes for each man to apply the other's finishing move. Let's assume, for all intents and purposes, that the other is groggy enough for one of the wrestlers to begin the finisher.

Executing the Angle Slam:

Step 1: Get behind or to the side of Kurt Angle.
Step 2: Get a firm grasp of his leg and arm.
Step 3: Lift and rotate mid-air
Step 4: Bring him home for the slam, driving Angle into the canvas

Executing the Mandible Claw:

Step 1: Shove your hand in Mick Foley's mouth

See the difference?

With the Angle Slam, you have to: position, grab, hoist & slam. It's not many steps but more compared to the Claw, which only requires the grab. There is no hoist or slam, and positioning is practically at any point. You can be in front, behind, on the ground, mid-flight... it doesn't matter. The Mandible Claw isn't restricted to any position whereas the Angle Slam doesn't have that restriction. There are multiple ways to perform the Slam but not unlimited like the Claw.

Hopefully, that clears up some things.

-----------------------------------


So yeah, the Mandible Claw is easier for Angle to apply on Foley than it is for Mick to get Kurt in a position to drop him for the Slam.

Angle wins.

Once again, this is clearly forgetting the fact that the mandible claw is a nerve hold. The entire point of the claw is to hit a specific nerve. And seeing as how no one as managed to cause the effects Mick Foley has with the mandible claw (temporary paralysis, unconsciousness), clearly this move is harder to use effectively than anyone is giving it credit for.

 

[Tastycles]

There's no way this match would ever actually happen, and if it did, they'd use the double arm DDT as Foley's finisher. How do you judge when a submission hold has been executed? When the person submits? It's a stupid stipulation that favours Foley immensely. Foley just has to perform a slam on Angle. He can do that in the first 3 seconds of the match and not have to actually wear Angle down to win.

By nature of this reverse battle royal style arse backwards nonsense that would be a Russo WCW classic, Foley wins.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

There's no way this match would ever actually happen, and if it did, they'd use the double arm DDT as Foley's finisher. How do you judge when a submission hold has been executed? When the person submits? It's a stupid stipulation that favours Foley immensely. Foley just has to perform a slam on Angle. He can do that in the first 3 seconds of the match and not have to actually wear Angle down to win.

By nature of this reverse battle royal style arse backwards nonsense that would be a Russo WCW classic, Foley wins.

Performing the move isn't sufficient, you have to defeat your opponent with it. So Foley has to hit the slam and pin Angle. Angle can either beat Foley with the submission or he can beat him unconscious and then apply it.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

I think you missed a crucial step in applying the Mandible Claw

Step 2: Beat your opponent so senseless that they can't put up a resistance to you sticking your fingers down their throat.

I mean seriously. You have a detailed setup for the Angle Slam, which is fine. But you treat something like sticking your fingers down another human beings throat unwillingly to be a piece of cake.

If that is so easy... I dare you to go try it on someone and report back here on how you do.

In both cases, you're going to have each guy fighting like hell to get out of position the second either attempts to use the finish and go for the win. Angle's going to have to beat Foley like he's rarely been beaten before before he can use the claw. I think in the end he'd do it, and I voted Angle over Foley because at the end of the day, Mick's the guy that will not only put someone over, but he'll make Angle more relevant than he's been in years while doing so. But there would be nothing about winning this match that would be 'simple'.

I think you missed this:

Let's assume, for all intents and purposes, that the other is groggy enough for one of the wrestlers to begin the finisher.

I assumed this for both wrestlers finishers because you can't make that argument for Angle and not for Foley. I was being quite objective in that regard to avoid someone like yourself from quoting my post and going: "Hey, Angle has to do this!" Turns out I was wrong.

Also, match rules state that the finisher has to use the opponent's finisher. All Angle has to do is partially put his hand into mouth. No set-up require like most grappling finishers like a powerbomb, chokeslam or piledriver.

Once again, this is clearly forgetting the fact that the mandible claw is a nerve hold. The entire point of the claw is to hit a specific nerve. And seeing as how no one as managed to cause the effects Mick Foley has with the mandible claw (temporary paralysis, unconsciousness), clearly this move is harder to use effectively than anyone is giving it credit for.

Umaga (the character) knows how to perform a nerve hold too and he wasn't up-to-date with most of the world but he beat (down) a lot of people with his nerve hold. The Great Khali also knows how to apply a nerve hold too and I wouldn't consider him a smart person or great wrestler.

So, if someone like Umaga or Khali can figure out how to perform a nerve hold, why can't someone as skilled at submissions like Kurt Angle can't figure out how to perform Mick Foley's nerve hold?