WCW Region, Greensboro Subregion, Second Round: (4) Verne Gagne vs. (13) Goldberg

[klunderbunker]

This is a second round match in the WCW Region, Greensboro Subregion. It is a standard one on one match. It will be held at the Greensboro Coliseum in Greensboro, North Carolina. Assume one week has passed since the first round matches.

#4. Verne Gagne

Vs.

#13. Goldberg

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Tastycles]

Goldberg was a good idea that was a flash in the pan. Gagne was a good idea that lasted too long. However, Gagne is the better wrestler and the bigger draw. The reason major companies have second tier titles is because of Gagne - the NWA realised that his popularity was close to Thesz's and they had to act. In doing so, they made him a secondary title. He later left and formed his own company, largely because he was overlooked for the NWA title he deserved.

To be a big enough draw to successfully strike it out on your own against a national monopoly shouldn't ever be underestimated. Goldberg was a big deal, but his big run coincided with WWE getting a foothold back in the Monday Night Wars. Gagne wins.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Boy this could be a tougher match than many think. On resume alone, Gagne trumps Goldberg based on him building what was once considered the top wrestling promotion in the world in the AWA and being it's champion during a time where there were many competitors that were worthy of a title run.

Goldberg was unstoppable for nearly two years... Gagne was nearly unstoppable for close to 20 years... not to mention Gagne's Olympic background, which matters because you can use that knowledge in the wrestling ring, despite what others will tell you.

It'll be Gagne going over here, but he'll earn his keep in this match.

 

[PsychoBlack]

Goldberg comes down to the ring, the bell rings, he spears Gagne so fucking hard he kills his old ass. Seriously has Vern Gagne ever been young?

My vote comes down to the fact that Goldberg entertains me far more than Vern Gagne. Goldberg may have one of the most memorable runs in wrestling history where he was the first undefeated world champion in the history of this sport. Not to mention he beat Hulk Hogan to do it.

Vote Goldberg

 

[Brewski]

First of all Gagne is just a far superior wrestler and is incredibly decorated. Even if AWA was his promotion I can't argue that he didn't deserve the belt over and over. I guess my issue is that Goldberg here is in a tournament and even against one of the greatest wrestlers in history the momentum he would have here is just too much. Goldberg was INSANELY popular durring the streak. At his peak he was the most popular wrestler in the U.S. if not the world. If WCW could have held on to that in the long run they could be still alive today. For that matter I pick the upset here with Goldberg over Verne.

 

[HBsam31]

I honestly have to vote Goldberg here. When he beat Hogan for the title he was crazy over. We would flip over from Raw just to watch his match. In those matches he was rarely ever even challenged. Verne Gagne was obviously the better wrestler, but I think eventually Goldberg would catch him and hit the spear winning this one.

 

[Bernkastel]

I honestly have to vote Goldberg here. When he beat Hogan for the title he was crazy over. We would flip over from Raw just to watch his match. In those matches he was rarely ever even challenged. Verne Gagne was obviously the better wrestler, but I think eventually Goldberg would catch him and hit the spear winning this one.

Which was incredibly poor booking on WCW's behalf to have made him such a strong face. His win record prior to losing the world title was even better than Stone Cold's. But what happened win he lost it? He fell into obscurity and couldn't regain the title because the fans couldn't get behind him. He beat Hogan, sure, but couldn't topple Bret Hart - and they were both faces. When Goldberg lost his face heat he lost it HARD. Notice that when he came to WWE he was booked allot better. When he lost, it was believable that he'd bounce back because his foes were fierce.

That being said Gagne wasn't the type of worker that Goldberg could have just run over - he was a huge name in his prime, not as big as Hogan, but Hogan was a massive heel when Goldberg beat him. Gagne primarily worked as a face in his prime. When Goldberg clashed with another big face name in his prime what happened? He LOST... to Bret Hart. Gagne was easily just as big of a name in his prime.

That core piece of booking leads me to believe that Goldberg would certainly lose this match.

Vote Verne Gagne...

 

[deem]

Which was incredibly poor booking on WCW's behalf to have made him such a strong face. His win record prior to losing the world title was even better than Stone Cold's. But what happened win he lost it? He fell into obscurity and couldn't regain the title because the fans couldn't get behind him. He beat Hogan, sure, but couldn't topple Bret Hart - and they were both faces. When Goldberg lost his face heat he lost it HARD. Notice that when he came to WWE he was booked allot better. When he lost, it was believable that he'd bounce back because his foes were fierce.

That being said Gagne wasn't the type of worker that Goldberg could have just run over - he was a huge name in his prime, not as big as Hogan, but Hogan was a massive heel when Goldberg beat him. Gagne primarily worked as a face in his prime. When Goldberg clashed with another big face name in his prime what happened? He LOST... to Bret Hart. Gagne was easily just as big of a name in his prime.

That core piece of booking leads me to believe that Goldberg would certainly lose this match.

Vote Verne Gagne...

This is a really interesting match and I'm on the fence. I actually like Gagne a lot despite him being a douche by all accounts - his work is good and I find him very watchable. This is the best post in the thread and I think I'm sold by it. Just gonna consider a few things before I commit.

I agree that this evidence is strong against Goldberg - Bret's somewhat stylistically similar to Gagne as well, both being scientific. He also faced and defeated DDP face vs face, but Hart is much more comparable to Gagne.

Gagne's certainly never faced someone like Goldberg so it's hard to gauge how he would adapt. He'd certainly attempt a ground and control, which could prove as effective as it did for Bret if he avoids the high impact moves early on. Even though he is unaware of Goldberg's style he would have had the benefit of prior research to this match, especially since it's second round so we have to assume he'd be somewhat prepared.

I find this really tough to guess - I'll go with Verne ala Echelon's post but I'm quite happy with Goldberg winning too. I'm just a sucker for the oldschool guys and Gagne has to be mentioned in the same breath as Sammartino and Thesz in credentials for representing them.

 

[Teddy Irving]

Goldberg's prime was the massive winning streak he had in WCW and during that time nobody, and I really mean nobody, was beating him. So it is quite likely that he would win this match.

As good as Gagne was, as Tastycles said earlier, he was overlooked to be the top guy during his time until he went off and made his own promotion. Now I am by no means saying that he didn't deserve the title, but at the same time it should be taken into account that against the top guy he just couldn't get the job done during his NWA run.

Goldberg was the top guy during his prime and so I have given him the vote over Gagne here but I wouldn't be to surprised for Gagne to win and go through either and I can see arguments for both to go through. It will be interesting to see which way it goes.

 

[8thwotwATG]

Goldberg was relevant for a couple of years. Verne Gagne was relevant for nearly two DECADES... The Multiple time AWA Champ(yes, I'm well aware he owned the organization), is more than a match for big Bill. Verne's skill as an amateur, , Verne's skill as a pro, his multiple title reigns, not to mention the fact that he trained at LEAST a couple of dozen topflight professionals for the wrestling business are more than enough to allow me to vote Mr. Gagne over Mr. Goldberg. I've heard the stories of how Chris Jerico was able to own Goldberg in the locker room with a front facelock.. does anyone actually believe that Verne Gagne couldn't do the same, or far worse???

Gagne wins.

 

[HBsam31]

Which was incredibly poor booking on WCW's behalf to have made him such a strong face. His win record prior to losing the world title was even better than Stone Cold's. But what happened win he lost it? He fell into obscurity and couldn't regain the title because the fans couldn't get behind him. He beat Hogan, sure, but couldn't topple Bret Hart - and they were both faces. When Goldberg lost his face heat he lost it HARD. Notice that when he came to WWE he was booked allot better. When he lost, it was believable that he'd bounce back because his foes were fierce.

That being said Gagne wasn't the type of worker that Goldberg could have just run over - he was a huge name in his prime, not as big as Hogan, but Hogan was a massive heel when Goldberg beat him. Gagne primarily worked as a face in his prime. When Goldberg clashed with another big face name in his prime what happened? He LOST... to Bret Hart. Gagne was easily just as big of a name in his prime.

That core piece of booking leads me to believe that Goldberg would certainly lose this match.

Vote Verne Gagne...

It is kind of hard to truly define Goldberg's prime. I consider it the time during his winning streak because you are right after he lost he never really regained his steam again. I don't even like Goldberg, but you can't deny his dominance during his streak. Poor booking? Probably. That shouldn't matter because we are only looking at how things were, not how they should or shouldn't have been. He wouldn't win this one easy, but I still think he wins.

 

[BobOlsenBobson]

Goldberg wins this one in my mind. Gagne was a better wrestler but Goldberg won a lot as did Gagne but he never got that huge streak that Goldberg did I would think this match would be Gagne out wrestling Goldberg until he hit a few power moves then a spear for the victory.

 

[The Brain]

I've never been a big Goldberg supporter. His bloated streak was mostly against low card nobodies with some credible opponents mixed in. I respect his popularity in 1998 but was Goldberg ever worth a damn outside that year? Verne was too good for too long to lose to a one year wonder. Gagne should advance here.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

I'm not as familiar with old school wrestling as others, but I have no idea how Gagne is losing here. Goldberg was big for about two years in late 90s WCW, but once he dropped the title he fell into obscurity, and he never achieved much of note in WWE. Gagne is one of the best of all time, and was at the top for a long time, maybe he was on top too long, but I'd rather be on top too long than be a flash in the pan.

 

[Big Sexy]

and he never achieved much of note in WWE.

Goldberg was in the WWE for one year and in that one year he defeated Randy Orton, Batista, Chris Jericho, The Rock, Triple H, and Brock Lesnar. He was also World Champion for 3 of the 12 months he was there. I'm not saying that makes him the victor, just that he did more in the WWE in one year then a lot of guys can do in a career.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Goldberg was a good idea that was a flash in the pan. Gagne was a good idea that lasted too long. However, Gagne is the better wrestler and the bigger draw. The reason major companies have second tier titles is because of Gagne - the NWA realised that his popularity was close to Thesz's and they had to act. In doing so, they made him a secondary title. He later left and formed his own company, largely because he was overlooked for the NWA title he deserved.

To be a big enough draw to successfully strike it out on your own against a national monopoly shouldn't ever be underestimated. Goldberg was a big deal, but his big run coincided with WWE getting a foothold back in the Monday Night Wars. Gagne wins.

I kind of despise comparing drawing power from territorial times to modern times.

Sure, he could strike out on his own in Minny, because no major wrestling company EXISTED there before.


Everyone here is criminally underrating Goldberg. He was as big as anything...Ever. Drew fifty thousand people on three days notice(though obviously the majority of those tickets had already been sold)

Kayfabe powers - Goldberg would kill Gange

overall carreer influence - Gange, obviously

Accomplishments - Closer than you think. Gee, Gagne won the world title numerous times in a territory he booked and owned? Ya dont say....

Drawing power - id still go with Goldberg. a worldwide phenom. Gange's promotion went of buisness. Jus sayin.

 

[D-Man]

Kayfabe powers - Goldberg would kill Gange

overall carreer influence - Gange, obviously

Accomplishments - Closer than you think. Gee, Gagne won the world title numerous times in a territory he booked and owned? Ya dont say....

Drawing power - id still go with Goldberg. a worldwide phenom. Gange's promotion went of buisness. Jus sayin.

I couldn't agree with this more. And, to be honest, I think Verne Gagne has become almost as overrated as guys like Edge, Eddie Guerrero and RVD.

I have no doubt that this man had tremendous endurance and a clean and crisp wrestling style. Technically, he's one of the best ever. He trained guys that will go down as some of the best in history. But in the ring, he constantly booked himself to be a billion times better than he was.

In no way, shape, or form would I ever think Goldberg would lose here. When the guy was in his prime, he was as close to an unstoppable wrecking machine as you can get. This match is just an example of the evolution of the sport. Many times, people underrate superstars of the old school. But in the case of guys like Warrior, Goldberg, Lesnar and Batista, we've seen how bigger and better wrestlers have been created over the years. Gagne could never hang with these types.

Goldberg had the draw factor, the global popularity, the wrecking machine power, and almost every other kayfabe category on his side. The only thing that Gagne has over Goldberg was title reigns and influence. But like Norcal said, it's easy to look like a great wrestler when you book yourself to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Goldberg wins and it's not as close as you all think.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Gagne would win here. I'm glad Goldberg was a draw for a cup of coffee and in that cup of coffee he accomplished more than most but we are talking about one of the greatest of all time in Verne Gagne.

So what if he booked himself to win, at the end of the day he could still draw big houses like nobody's business, he was still the most popular star they had until Hogan, he's no different than any other promoter who also wrestled at the time. I'm just saying I don't hear many people saying stuff about Lawler doing the same thing when he's fighting, or Inoki, or anyone else who did it!

Goldberg did something for a short span that Gagne did for 20 years, yeah I think Verne goes over here.

Goldberg too big and too powerful? I've seen Verne stretch the shit out of bigger and more powerful than Goldberg. If Warrior was in there with Verne Gagne he would get the living fuck kicked out of him and so would Goldberg. So Jericho can take down Goldberg but Gagne can't? See where the logic falters in that.

 

[Jomo_mark]

While as an overall wrestler Gagne may have been better throughout his carreer, I think it is important to remember that this match is both of them in their prime. In his prime, Goldberg wasn an absolute beast, undefeated, and boasting wins over huge names like HHH, Lesnar, Orton, The Rock and Hogan. Granted, he may have sucked afterthat, but in his prime, he was a huge star and I definitely see him beating someone like Gagne if he could be undefeated against stars like the ones I mentioned above.

 

[Tastycles]

It's done and dusted, but I'd like to consider a few things.

I kind of despise comparing drawing power from territorial times to modern times.

Sure, he could strike out on his own in Minny, because no major wrestling company EXISTED there before.

I wasn't talking about AWA, I was talking about the fact that Gagne was a national draw for the NWA and they invented the idea of the second tier national title to give him something to defend.

Everyone here is criminally underrating Goldberg. He was as big as anything...Ever. Drew fifty thousand people on three days notice(though obviously the majority of those tickets had already been sold)

There's no doubting Goldberg was over, but the fact remains that it was during his big push that the WWE finally came back into the picture in 1998.

Accomplishments - Closer than you think. Gee, Gagne won the world title numerous times in a territory he booked and owned? Ya dont say....

The only reason that happened is because bullshit politicking stopped him from getting the NWA title after Thesz dropped it.

Drawing power - id still go with Goldberg. a worldwide phenom. Gange's promotion went of buisness. Jus sayin.

Gagne's promotion went out of business when he was in his mid 60s. Goldberg's promotion went out of business when he was a main eventer.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Thesz, well really the NWA ran from him, and just let Gagne get oh so close. So he decides to open his own promotion.

In this bullshit mirky world of wrestling politics, you have to be something special to beat the top dog. Especially in the infested waters of WCW. Goldberg was that. He beat the odds against the Hogans of backroom backstabbery to get the title.

Also this WCW so honestly, really there was one choice.