WCW beat WWE for 80-something weeks....

[Big Ace]

Sorry if the rest of the Mod team thinks this belongs in the Ask A Question thread:

Do you all notice about how so many people talk about how WCW beat up WWE for 83 weeks? Well, how about when WWE whipped WCW for 115 weeks? Why doesn't anybody mention that? At least, WCW doesn't. Besides, in late 1997, the ratings for WWE were slowly going up. They got as high as 3.6 I believe on the week of Christmas.

 

[X]

Well nobody really mentions it because we all know that WCW bankrupted itself with its increasingly inferior product in the late 90s, early 2000's. People just bring up WCW's kicking WWE's ass I think because alot of the younger fans have the perception that WCW was always inferior, which truly wasn't the case as for a while there Nitro was THE wrestling show on TV.

But yeah, in the end it was like the WWF was just flogging a dead horse with WCW.

 

[Kasey]

It's not that remarkable because they'd kicked the WCW/NWA's ass for years on end before that. Hell, McMahon made sure that Starrcade '88 wasn't distributed by the majority of cable distributors in 1988 when he threatened to pull the plug on WWE programming at later dates (you have to love his business ethics). What made the 80+ weeks of Nitro dominance so special was that they did it against the standard bearer in the American wrestling industry and didn't just do it, but did it handily and nearly ran the son of a bitch out of business (now I wish they'd succeeded). Besides, WCW's problems weren't necessarily due to the lack of talent at that time they started losing ground (1998). On the contrary, they had the deepest wrestling roster in history. The problems came with too much high-priced talent calling their own shots and Bischoff running out of gas creatively and not keeping his eye on business. When Time Warner got a hold of WCW things got way worse. As the WWF grew stronger and WCW got weaker, TW yanked funding out of WCW events. In turn the production values went south and with the constant change in creative teams, things were pissing themselves down the drain at an exponential rate. The impressive thing about WCW's dominance from 1995 through 1997 is that they had the best of everything on one show and were setting the trends (albeit most of them were already done in other promotions like NWO in New Japan and loads of stuff in ECW). Ah, but those glory days when the NWO wasn't bled to death and WCW revolutionized Monday Nights. Man, I miss those days.

 

[Big Ace]

Obviously, WWF took many of its ideas from Nitro and basically made it bigger and better. I was a fan of Nitro from 95-96 because quite frankly, at the time, I wasn't really into the better wrestling. IMO, The WWE's best Wrestling period had to be there in 95-96 when Bret and HBK were Champions. Nitro really fit with the rest of the World at the time and it was really more edgy. Besides, it was probably harder to get the World Wrestling Federation out of business, a company that had been out since the early 80's. I think it was both the Time Warner Merger and the WWF latching onto their forumla that made WCW die. Although, I also think adding Thunder was a huge mistake, and most of the guys who were big names in the early 90's were losing their popularity in the late 90's. And you can add the creative control in there as well. Bottomline, WCW died. Even if WCW had bought out the WWF, It would've been the same result. There's no way that Nitro would be as good as it used to be. Wrestling needs competition. Real competition, to become successful.

 

[Shocky]

Pretty much it's already been summed up, the reason the WCW streak is more talked about is because they nearly put the big dog of WWE out of business. WCW even until the end didn't sniff anything below a 2.0, but at a few times WWE was below that 2.0 water mark. I guess it would be comparable if Tna and WWE went head to head. Everyone knows the WWE is going to stick it to them, but all it takes is for TNA to win one week and it becomes the story.

 

[RVDgurl]

Vince McMahon took nearly all of the ideas that were being presented on Nitro and applied them to the RAW product. A 2 hour live format, back stage promos and the storylines taken from real life scenarios are all things that WCW did first with Nitro. This is why the 80+ weeks that Nitro dominated RAW are so important. Bischoff and WCW revolutionized the way wrestling programing was packaged. Only after McMahon incorporated these ideas into his RAW show, did the WWE start to compete with Nitro's ratings. I have said it a million times, but I'll say it again- Vince McMahon is the master at stealing ideas from his competitors and marketing them as his own.

 

[Shocky]

RVD, on top of that, the whole premise for RAW was stolen anyway when it switched to attitude. LIke you said, the attitude came from two places, ECW and Jerry Springer. I've argued with people that Jerry Springer may have been the most important person in wrestling during the 90's. WWE saw that his show was trash TV, but Springers show even took down Oprah fora while. That formula worked. Cheezy storylines with as much violence as possible, and it created a buzz. Vince is hardly the creative genius people make him out to be. You are right, look outside of the WWE and you'll see a lot of things other people did first.

 

[Jonny B]

I think saying Vince blatantly stole stuff from ECW and Jerry Springer is a bit off. Think about it, the WWE did have an Attitude, but it wasn't nearly as Hardcore as ECW was thats what made the WWE so good to watch back then, and made it so popular... it appealed to the masses, while WCW were infighting with the politics and such the WWF at the time were marketing great idea's, the basis of those idea's maybe were not those of Vince himself, but the way in which he presented them is what made the WWF so successful.

I also think its unfair to say that the WWF only won because WCW self-destructed. Yes there were major inside contributors to the WCW downfall *coughHOGANcough* but you look at how many stars the WWF built. Austin, Rock, Undertaker, Mankind, Kane, Triple H, Kurt Angle etc... and in that time you could argue that WCW could only build Goldberg and Booker T up as credible new stars.

 

[detroitking02]

well wcw was a great product they were the first of the two to really invest in the crusiweight division and womens both were better then wwf/wwe criuserweights and womens wrestling and WCW really messed up BIG TIME was when WCW started to lose rating they dismissed the guy who brought WCWto the top Eric Bischoff as the lead creative control and made him team up with Vince Russo and Russo was in control over matches and Eric Bischoff knew WCW was dieing because of Russo and front office people and Eric quit his postion WCW shoulda let Eric stay in control or let him bring in someone he wanted not force Russo to work with him and Eric would of figured out a way to beat WWF again like he did before

 

[Shining Wizard]

I think it was because WWF beat WCW so Eric started bragging about how much he beat them by and it became big when WWE started expanding more with the brand split and it made dominance up to this date as no one has ever tried to take it down. Now, currently it is viewed as unstoppable and is the main reason a lot of WWE marks arent taking a chance with TNA. So WWE getting beat is a big deal because most percieve it that way by looking back from now to then.

 

[Slyfox696]

I think another big reason people don't talk about the WWF's dominance is because the WCW never overtook them again. They had two or three weeks around Goldberg's title win that they won a couple nights, but for the most part, the WWF won every week. If the WCW had overtaken the WWF again, then we would probably talk about.

We talk about the 80+ weeks WCW won, and we all know that the WWF won everything else. So, there's really nothing to talk about.

I think saying Vince blatantly stole stuff from ECW and Jerry Springer is a bit off.

Especially since, from everything I've heard, ECW pretty much ripped off FMW for a lot of ideas.

 

[Kasey]

^ECW did take a lot of stuff in terms of some of the wrestling styles as FMW was probably the first legit "garbage" promotion in the world. The vast majority of the ECW stuff was toned down by a lot in comparison to some of the outrageous stuff I've seen FMW do. The only promotion stateside that even came (or still comes) close to FMW is probably CZW and their Tournament of Death. A lot of the ideas in terms of the storylines weren't done in that fashion by anyone else before ECW, though. ECW was kind of an amalgam of different concepts from all over the world, in turn. Sometimes, though, the concepts (and thusly the talent) introduced was due to necessity. Usually due to an exodus of existing ECW talent to other feds. And in the end, ECW was really the first promotion on earth that catered to smart fans as opposed to the mark masses. In the end, though, everyone stateside stole from everyone else. Paul E. just did it first before Uncle Eric and Vince got a whiff of the potential to be had.

 

[nyboy42]

Speaking about angles: lets rate the best MONDAY NIGHT WAR ANGLES YOU REMEMBER: my top 5 are:

5)Chris Jericho WWF debut - do I have to say more...??

4)Goldberg beating Hogan for the title: for free on NITRO!

3)Bret Hart turning heel and cursing on RAW: he said BULLSHIT!!! OH MY GOD!

2) WWF buys Nitro and McMahon is on TNT!!! WHAT THE F??!!

1) McMahon introduces Bishoff as the GM of RAW: ....................stunned.


Honorable Mentions:

- Ric Flair returning with the 4 Horsemen
- Vince Russo debut and the complete set redesign Nitro went under
- Rock and Mankind - this is ur life
- DX revealing the infamous curtain incident
- Marty Janetty dressed as a fan, challenges beats HBK for IC belt
- ECW invited to RAW
- DX invades Nitro

 

[SuperstarRush]

This thread is full of ******ed. You are all arguing about why Vince McMahon is not an intelligent businessman. Let me break it down for you like this, playa.

Vince McMahon, for nearly 3 decades, has been able to keep a product innovative and relevant in an industry where the average lifespan of said product, wrestling promotions, is no more than 5 or 6 years.

That doesn't happen by sheer luck, or even by "stealing" all of your competitions' ideas and making them your own. If that were true, I could write a New York Times bestseller by plagiarizing. Besides, every company in the entire world, including your cherished WCW, has stolen an idea or three. On another note, you can't fairly say that Vince stole lots of stuff from ECW either. It is obvious that he has no real respect for ECW by the way the organization is being used today. The only thing you could really claim he stole was the "Attitude" idea, but that is just silly, because that was really more just the mentality of our society at the time. Fans loved DX because they identified with the idea. Austin, too. The Rock as well, to an extent.

The fact of the matter is WCW screwed up a hundred too many times. For starters, when you have active wrestlers like Hogan and Nash in creative control, guess which direction your show is going to go. And WWE certainly wasn't stealing ideas from WCW at this time. If that had been the case, we would have seen Kurt Angle vs The Rock in a graveyard snake pit branding iron on a pole match or some other ridiculousness.

WCW was on the top for a good while because their product was superior. But WCW could not survive because it became stagnant. Horribly stagnant. Without caring. For years.

To shorten this into a metaphor, WWE was the hotshot guy in a corporate board room calling the shots and making big innovative decisions. WCW was the mentally handicapped son of the CEO, eating crayons and trying not to poop itself.

Eventually... it pooped itself.

 

[Kasey]

This thread is full of ******ed. You are all arguing about why Vince McMahon is not an intelligent businessman. Let me break it down for you like this, playa.

Vince McMahon, for nearly 3 decades, has been able to keep a product innovative and relevant in an industry where the average lifespan of said product, wrestling promotions, is no more than 5 or 6 years.

I definitely wouldn't argue the fact that he's been able to keep his product alive in some form or another. The issue at hand is that without any competition to speak of or someone to steal ideas from (YES...ECW), he doesn't know what the hell to do with himself and lost a metric fuckton of ratings as a result. He's been on the cusp of promoting pro-wrestling in America with the kind of established foothold that puro has in Japan, but each time he blundered and pissed it all away when he was clearly in the driver's seat. Vince is a shrewd businessman who'd likely sell his family if he knew it would up his stock options. Being shrewd and being original are separate issues. He's been original in some things, but very hackneyed and clueless in others.

That doesn't happen by sheer luck, or even by "stealing" all of your competitions' ideas and making them your own. If that were true, I could write a New York Times bestseller by plagiarizing. Besides, every company in the entire world, including your cherished WCW, has stolen an idea or three. On another note, you can't fairly say that Vince stole lots of stuff from ECW either. It is obvious that he has no real respect for ECW by the way the organization is being used today. The only thing you could really claim he stole was the "Attitude" idea, but that is just silly, because that was really more just the mentality of our society at the time. Fans loved DX because they identified with the idea. Austin, too. The Rock as well, to an extent.

Actually, he was stealing talent (with gimmicks intact in some cases ala' Hogan, Austin, Foley) for years and years. He pretty much crippled the AWA with this. Hell, he even stole their announcer. Vince did steal a lot from ECW. Hell, he helped bankroll it, so what would lead you to believe he wouldn't have first crack at picking it clean (although Bischoff was smart enough to get a talent mole in Tod Gordon). He used it as a farm system and took a lot of ideas in terms of the product content and a large number of the talent. He had no real idea how to execute "Attitude" with his shows. That is until Heyman and crew showed up and gave fans a dose of what ECW was like on Raw for a time. All of a sudden the entire catalog of potential gimmick matches for WWF programming expanded by a factor of three. As for DX? They were just the NWO with more of the lead guy flashing his ass and humping flags when he got the chance. They were cool heels on an anti-establishment agenda...just like the NWO...who were a lot like the UWFI when they invaded New Japan. Austin was a transplanted character from Steve's ECW days with a different haircut and a simpler ring getup. The Rock, I'll give you. He was one of the shining creations they put together in house during that time.

To shorten this into a metaphor, WWE was the hotshot guy in a corporate board room calling the shots and making big innovative decisions. WCW was the mentally handicapped son of the CEO, eating crayons and trying not to poop itself.

Eventually... it pooped itself.

It's funny, because this describes what the WWE has become and still is. The difference between the two products is that WCW had a worthy adversary ready to kill them at a moment's notice when they finally began to falter. McMahon was pretty much the only major league game in town because TNA is still a baby.

 

[BRandonkin]

I think Mankind was a WWE original. I heard him in an interview talking about how Vince told him about the character and he like it and accepted it. I really only see Vince using the gimmicks of Hogan and Austin(somewhat) along with teh whole ECW crew because they were invading WWE. But I think Vince has a good idea of gimmicks.

I think currently Vince is old and out of tune. During the beginning of the attitude era, HBK and HHH were like we know what cool is let us lead with DX (although I supposed they really didn't) and then the Rock and Austin to it to whole new level. I think Vince is smart need a inspiration and then he can create miles on that. NWO, hmmmm. Hart Foundation, DX, NOD, Corportation, Ministry of darkness and so forth to where he made almost every ending of raw have 20 people in the ring fighting.

 

[pmike3]

I think the whole reason it's brought up is to let new (and even some older) fans know that WWE isn't untouchable. WWF beat NWA/WCW for a long time by a lot. (kind of like they are with TNA). But they were taken down for a while and surpassed by a company who tried something different. Sure in the end WCW lost but it lost not because of the talent but because of the writing team. The stories got old and boring (the same thing over and over). Just like the WWE is doing now.