Was HBK The Unluckiest Champion Ever?

[FanSince85]

His run while the nWo was hot was pretty unlucky. You could see the crowd treating him like they treat Cena today, the women and kids cheered and the men boo'd. He started winning over the men when he started running with HHH and doing the DX thing, playing the heel.

Whoever said it was tough for the babyface to get over back then was right. Once that nWo angle happened and Austin took off at KOTR it was a flip-flop of who got the cheers. Bret was supposed to be the face leading up to the screwjob and he was hearing the boo's just about everywhere.

 

[Wald]

I'll point out again that the nWo didn't happen until over three months in to Shawn's title reign, at which time it was obvious he wasn't connecting with the crowd as well he should.

Shawn should have taken a page from Bret's book and built himself up as a proper underdog and dropped the Boytoy routine. Thats why he failed as a face champion

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Shawns doctor told him his knee was so bad he couldnt wrestle on it again. He got a 2nd opinion from a doctor who works with athletes (I want to say it was Dr Andrews). The 2nd doctor told him his knee is so messed up he wouldnt do any further damage to it, he would just be in constant pain.

Well Dr. James Andrews was the one they had in the lost his smile vignette, but I find it VERY hard to believe that he would give a diagnosis like that.

I'm also very surprised this is even a point of contention in this thread. It's generally accepted that Shawn's knee injury was non-existent, or at the very least EXTREMELY exaturated. He worked 4 days before the career ending injury in a tag match where he had zero mobility issues at any point in the match. He'd also been working daily (and sometimes twice a day) steadily up till then (he was on every card they ran). He was prancing out to the ring to do commentary like nothing was wrong a few weeks after making the announcement. He even walked out to make the announcement with the slightest of limps that wasn't even very consistent.

Bret was hardly the only person that didn't believe him. Most reports from the lockerroom at the time suggest that HHH was about the only person who did believe him.

This is honestly the first time in 14 years I've ever seen more than a lone person ever dispute that Michaels was completely full of it when he dropped the title, and that he ever had any ulterior motives other than getting out of doing the job inside the ring. Please remember this was the time when Michaels himself openly stated that he no longer lies down for any man.

I have a question though. It's bee 15 years now since this diagnosis. Shawn still seems to be able to get around just fine considering how bad his knees apparently were, and I don't remember ever hearing about him getting surgury, or having to have his knees replaced (you know like so many other athletes have had to get done). What's the deal with that?

 

[The Eighties]

At end of the day HBK said in his book that Hogan and Austin were the two biggest draws of their respective eras, and that him and Flair were recognized as the two greatest workers, which was fine with him.

Truth was he got the belt in 96 as a white-meat babyface, just as the tide was turning, ECW's anti-face mentality was filtering into the mindset of the mainstream wrestling fan bored with the super goody, it was around this time that Hogan was starting to get booed as well, in fact a year before audiences were cheering Vader against Hogan. Add to the mentality switch the fact WCW was loaded with big names and had debuted perhaps the hottest angle ever around the same time, and the best Shawn could do was keep the ship afloat.

I strongly believe had HBK not gotten hurt and took his edgy DX character into the attitude era he'd have drawn big, HBK vs Austin may have become the biggest rivalry ever, but we'll never know.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

For the OP, in a sense he was unlucky that the NWO started up on his watch.

But comrade_mario is absolutely right that Shawn wasn't connecting with a good portion of the audience before the NWO was even there.

It also wasn't bad luck that he was very unprofessional in how he treated workers in the WWE at the time, which definitely carried over somewhat into the ring.

Also was it bad luck that they were doing the routine where they had little kids come into the ring to do Shawn's stripper dance with him... which was a big turnoff for many fans?

The timing of his first reign was bad because he was in tough against a white hot angle. But you could also argue that he should have been able to overcome that with compelling stories of his own, which could have happened if he wasn't so unprofessional at the time.

Use Austin as an example. He began his rise to becoming the biggest star of that era right when the NWO was at it's peak, and right when Shawn wasn't 'kliquing' as champion. Just goes to show that it was possible.

 

[Wald]

I actually believe if Shawn didn't retire when he did he would have ended up dead or in the WCW anyway.

There was no stopping the Rock or Austin at stage, Triple H was on the rise, Taker was still around and Foley was coming on too.

He would have at least been playing third fiddle to Rock and Austin by 1999, I don't see him liking that, plus the built in feud for him would be to put over Triple H. That means Triple H has to be best him in a series and he probably goes to fourth fiddle.

From there, with his known attitude problems, he either walks out or goes down into a further drug spiral. The best thing that ever happened to him wa sthat back injury, it probably saved his life

 

[MrMojoRisin]

At end of the day HBK said in his book that Hogan and Austin were the two biggest draws of their respective eras, and that him and Flair were recognized as the two greatest workers, which was fine with him.

Truth was he got the belt in 96 as a white-meat babyface, just as the tide was turning, ECW's anti-face mentality was filtering into the mindset of the mainstream wrestling fan bored with the super goody, it was around this time that Hogan was starting to get booed as well, in fact a year before audiences were cheering Vader against Hogan. Add to the mentality switch the fact WCW was loaded with big names and had debuted perhaps the hottest angle ever around the same time, and the best Shawn could do was keep the ship afloat.

I strongly believe had HBK not gotten hurt and took his edgy DX character into the attitude era he'd have drawn big, HBK vs Austin may have become the biggest rivalry ever, but we'll never know.

I'll agree with this.

The edgy original DX Shawn was probably the most compelling he ever was in his career, and he absolutely could have gone far with that character.

It would have been very interesting to see how things would have turned out if he'd been able to stick around after WM in 98.

 

[HeenanGorilla]

I also think Pedro Morales was quite unlucky. He would benefit greatly with his Latino heritage now. It was huge back then, but could have been global now. How unlucky that Pedro was ahead of his time.

 

[JJ15776]

I brought Bret into by saying Shawn and Bret feuded at WM 12 and Bret called Shawn on the fake injury live on air, all things that happened. You brought Bret into by saying he's jealous of Shawn. Big difference.

There's no difference whatsoever. The second one is a direct, logical response to the first one. Bret falsely assumed Shawn of faking the injury because of his jealousy. It's no coincidence that blind Bret Hart supporters are the only ones that falsely accuse Shawn of faking the injury. There's a reason Shawn was out for the rest of the year. Do you think he faked re-injurying the knee, faked the surgery, and guest refereed at SummerSlam instead of wrestling just to sell the injury? Give me a break. It's never made any sense whatsoever, and it still doesn't now.

I actually believe if Shawn didn't retire when he did he would have ended up dead or in the WCW anyway.

There was no stopping the Rock or Austin at stage, Triple H was on the rise, Taker was still around and Foley was coming on too.

He would have at least been playing third fiddle to Rock and Austin by 1999, I don't see him liking that, plus the built in feud for him would be to put over Triple H. That means Triple H has to be best him in a series and he probably goes to fourth fiddle.

From there, with his known attitude problems, he either walks out or goes down into a further drug spiral. The best thing that ever happened to him wa sthat back injury, it probably saved his life

While the stuff about playing third or fourth fiddle is nonsensical gibberish, at least you got one thing right in all of your posts in this thread. That back injury and the retirement saved Shawn's life. He's admitted as much. It forced him to leave the business, which let him find god and start a family and all that stuff and put wrestling in its proper perspective. That allowed him to come back a better person, putting more people over than anybody in the last decade, not to mention cement his legacy as the best in ring performer of all time.

 

[Raiden46]

The most unlucky champions are the ones who hold world titles in the Cena era. Outside of Punk, they are doomed to minuscule reigns until Cena decides it is his time to tack on yet another title reign.

 

[KingKulin]

Shawn was his own worst enemy and the SuperCena like push he received didn't do him any favours.

Let's actually look at why he didn't get over with the crowd as face champion, and he didn't, by looking at his feuds over the title.

vs Bret Hart leading into Wrestlemania 12 - Shawn was booked as the cocky character he always played, a flashy guy who gets the girls and doesn't care what anyone thinks about him. Bret was booked as the hard working, down to earth, underdog that rose to the top and stayed there because he was that good.

No surprises that Bret got more cheers than Shawn around this time, Shawn was basically booked as a character that men couldn't identify with. Bret was almost a forerunner for the Steve Austin character, a working class hero to be proud of. Vince should take most of the blame for that, Shawn should have known that he needed to change his character up.

The promo video says it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sm0f887rLM

vs Diesel for In Your House - First of a pattern to follow whereby Shawn overcomes all odds to somehow take the gold home, something a lot of people hate Cena for today. Anyway Diesel was well on his way to perfecting the Kevin Nash/nWo character that got him massively over. Watch the match and the males in the audience want Diesel to win by the end, especially after Shawn gets beaten up for the entire match and wins with relative ease at the end.

This should have told Vince and Shawn that this stacking the odds for him to overcome wasn't working with winning over the men in the audience, sadly they stuck with through the next feud

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Uwwa6Uj35E

Around this time the obnoxious Kliq Kam started appearing too, that was one of the lamest things a WWF/E champion has ever done and further alienated from anyone that wasn't a kid or that didn't want to have sex with him.

Next proper feud was with Vader. Again a monster heel, who had been crushing all in front of him, but one that Shawn would heroically overcome. The Summerslam match was very poorly booked, in that Shawn looked like he wanted to get the hell out of there like a coward with a count out and DQ loss, before eventually besting Vader. We know now that HBK pulled a creative card, as Vader was originally supposed to win the title here to lose back to HBK at a later date, and even before the IWC existed it was obvious to a lot in the crowd that that should have happened, given the way the feud was booked. It made no sense to blow off Vader like this, he was getting very over as a heel, but HBK decided he didn't want to work with him and that was that.

A great match, but a throwaway feud followed with Mankind. Vince should have steppe din here and realised that Foley had the tools to get HBK over with the section of the crowd he couldn't, but didn't pull the trigger on a proper run here. The nWo were up and running by now, which didn't help the Kliq Kam's coolness one bit.

On to Psycho Sid. Yet another monster for HBK to go over, although this time they had a twist in the tale. All reports indicate that HBK was supposed to hold the belt til Wrestlemania 13 to drop to Bret, but HBK and Vince wisely decided that dropping the title to Sid, so that he could win it back in his hometown of San Antonio, might get him some of the face champion heat he was lacking.

At the Survivor Series though the New York crowd were so behind Sid that it made HBK look very, very bad. This is the match where HBK really lost his cool with the audience and goes pretty mental at them. hell the audience even cheered Lothario getting knocked out by Sid, such was their hatred for HBK.

Also watch the ending after Sid has won, way to sell the powerbomb and camera shot Shawn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhv6Siz5Wi8

So Shawn wins it back in his hometown, but we all know what happened then with the fake knee injury. That killed Shawn as a face, Bret even called him out live on Raw for faking the injury, confirming in most people's eyes what they suspected.

So who to blame?

Vince and Shawn are much more to blame than the nWo for Shawn's awful 1996 run. They should have realised after the Diesel match that they needed to change his character slightly, they should definitely have known after the Mankind match that HBK needed a wrinkle in his lame fan favourite gimmick. He was SuperCena x1000 and the male audience pretty much hated him for it. The nWo didn't come into play until after the Vader match, keep that in mind, by that stage he was being booed out of the building pretty regularly

Sound like a hater, did u hear Vince, No One in the History has worn that CHampionship belt with so much pride, gives it his all in that ring. The NWO was the hottest ish happening, Vince couldn't have done nothing at that point in time to counter it. It wasn't Shawn's fault, nor Vince's fault. Hogan was the man, and him joinin the NWO was impossible for the WWE/F to compete with!!!

 

[HBKperfect23]

You think saying the Rock and Austin would have been bigger stars than HBK by 1999 is non-sensical gibberish? I was always warned about HBK Marks but wow

Saying the best in ring performer in history is playing third and fourth fiddle? Its without a doubt non-sensical gibberish. Michaels would have continued his feud with Austin and been top heel until he left the WWF.

Bret supporters just have blind hatred towards HBK. Its actually kind of funny. I dont understand it.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

I'll say a few things here.

Shawn's knee:

HBK said that he was told by a Doctor that his knee was very bad and that he wouldn't be able to wrestle for a while. He thought it was all over when he was on top and at the same time his mom said to him 'You've lost your smile'. Struck a chord with his heart that and that's why he gave the speech he did. Look at the audience and their reaction to that. Then people start calling his injury fake he starts doing somersaults and dancing to fuck with these people. Bear in mind, he is still under the impression he is missing valuable ring time whilst on top. He gets sent to Dr. Andrews next and while confirms his knee is bad, he can still go. Source - Bret Vs HBK DVD.

Bret Hart quipped in by saying knees are a funny thing as he worked a program with Austin and only later realized that his knee needed an op.


If Shawn would've stayed, I do agree there are high chances that he would've died or ended up in WCW, and then died. Or he would've ended up like Hall.

Or maybe found God coza his wife and kids. He needed to step away from the business and evaluate his life which he did and came back and still performed on top and elevated talent.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

I actually believe if Shawn didn't retire when he did he would have ended up dead or in the WCW anyway.

High chances yes. No pun intended. Not yet anyway.

There was no stopping the Rock or Austin at stage, Triple H was on the rise, Taker was still around and Foley was coming on too.

Austin, yes no stopping. Rock, I'm not too sure. HBK, and in the mental state he was, would've taken one guy at the top but not two. Was he doing right by the business then around 97-98? No not really. He was protecting his spot and running the ship with his buddy while underneath the radar, The Rock and Austin were having a fantastic IC feud. Austin's rise was meteoric and The Rock at one point had HBK in his stable in the corporation. So maybe HBK would've helped him. Then again if you go by dirtsheet reports Shawn refused a program with Rock because he thought he wasn't ready or the build was wrong.

I think Austin said the same thing about Brock one day.

However, you are deviating. HBK was a brilliant champion who was very exciting to watch. When was he sloppy tell me? In his prime from late 94 to spring 98, he had great great matches with men of varied size and wrestling abilities.

He would have at least been playing third fiddle to Rock and Austin by 1999, I don't see him liking that, plus the built in feud for him would be to put over Triple H. That means Triple H has to be best him in a series and he probably goes to fourth fiddle.

Ever heard Paul Heyman talk about Terry Funk. Heyman said 'Funk was the only veteran of the time that knew that they had to ready the next generation for their to be a business' Here is where WCW fell. Same guys stayed on top. There was no freshness and the product stank like shit, for other reasons as well. I think by 2000 even The Rock's feud were monotonous. His feud with Hunter and Austin had been done enough and in my opinion the injection of Jericho and Benoit breathed much life to his longevity.

Coming back, HBK was clinging to his spot because quite frankly he was that damn good. I do think he would've grudgingly put The Rock over and happily put Hunter over had he stayed. If he became too much of a nuisance he would've been fired. Vince has let bigger money churners go because of differences.

Again this is all assumption. HBK could've seen where he was wrong and start putting over the red hot ones.

From there, with his known attitude problems, he either walks out or goes down into a further drug spiral. The best thing that ever happened to him wa sthat back injury, it probably saved his life

Absolutely. No rebuttals or discussion. Looking back I do think even he takes it as a work of God that eventually saved him.


But it still makes him very unlucky. And his reign as champion. For the kind of performer he was, he deserved better. Even with all the Kliq and backstage pull that man never was sloppy or too drugged up not to perform to his best.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

There is little doubt about the fact that HBK was unlucky. He became champion at the time when nWo, which was unarguably the hottest thing in wrestling since Hogan/ Andre, was taking off and he had some pretty average roster to work with. However, there has always been this sneaking suspicion that HBK may not have set the world on fire even if the nWo had not existed.

One of the reasons is because of the roster as I mentioned earlier. The other thing that I believe would have held Shawn back was his character. Shawn Michaels got over by having some great matches and by being a very cocky heel. It was that cockiness of his that set him apart from the rest of the roster. But once he turned babyface, that cockiness of his was neutered to a large extent because, well, cocky faces were not the norm at that point. He could not have become another Bret Hart because he just did not have the common touch like Bret did. Everything about Shawn, from his clothes to his promos, screamed that he was a cut above the common public, unlike Bret who had this honest, hardworking guy vibe about him. This is not a knock on HBK lest anyone embroiled in the HBK/ Bret debate may misunderstand this statement. It's just that they were different.

I think that if you notice Vince's booking in 1996 you will find that even he had recognized that cockiness was Shawn's forte and he booked Shawn as an overconfident babyface. Shawn had some great lines in those times. One that I remember particularly well was Shawn telling Bulldog's wife not to flatter herself into thinking that Shawn would sleep with her. But again, Shawn wasn't exactly as good as Rock or Austin in this department and you have to wonder how much Vince would have pushed the envelope had there been no nWo.

In the end Shawn as a face in 1996 was somewhat of a middleman. He wasn't as white as Bret and nor was he as extreme as Austin and middlemen rarely succeed. I think he would have eventually turned heel even if nWo had not existed.

 

[thebarber]

Michaels has every opportunity to get over as a WWE Champion, he had an 8 month run staright in 1996 with the title with credible opponents like Vader, Foley, Diesel, Goldust, Davey Boy and Owen Hart.
Sure the WCW were heavy competition but the fact is, he was not much of a company man at that stage of his acreer, he was out for himself. With the Kliq leaving for WCW, HBK went into survival mode and his off screen antics made him very unpopular with management and the talent. HBK should be thankful the locker room did there best to keep him on top. This topic has nothing to do with Bret Hart or their feud, Hart was even more unlucky being the first face to carry the load for the company post Hogan. Warrior tried and failed. Hart did a commendable job as champion.

 

[EasyMark]

I'll point out again that the nWo didn't happen until over three months in to Shawn's title reign, at which time it was obvious he wasn't connecting with the crowd as well he should.

Shawn should have taken a page from Bret's book and built himself up as a proper underdog and dropped the Boytoy routine. Thats why he failed as a face champion

Compared to most people here I'm a casual wrestling fan. I tune in when I'm interested and tune out when I'm not which can be years at a time. For me at the time I couldn't get into the "boy toy " routine. I tuned out. I also attended the Richmond VA event where Shawn "passed out" in the ring after about 20 minutes. Compared to the Ric Flair 45-60 min main events of the 80's this performance to me seemed like a rip off.

In retrospect Shawn Michaels has become one of my all time favorite wrestlers, but at the time he wasn't clicking for me, and I had been a fan of the Midnight Rockers in the AWA.

 

[Wald]

Yeah I was a massive Michaels fan up until the head injury angle and his comeback Rumble win. I just didn't buy into this character suddenly being a face and dancing around with kids, was way too vanilla.

Honestly that Kliq Kam nonsense still bothers me to this day. I am glad he came back though to re-establish his legacy, because by 2002 I honestly feel he had become a footnote in WWF history as the guy who screwed Bret, and he was far too talented to have that be what people remember him by

 

[god-soldier]

HBK was not the unluckiest champion. I personally believe that he was champion in the WWE in the best time where there was only 4 main faces Undertaker,Razor Ramon, HBK, and Bret Hart. If he had time to really shine it was then when no one was standing in his way. It is true WCW had the better product with the nWo storyline in starting form by mid June. But HBK was champion before the nWo started and before it kicked into high gear; so this proves again he had the perfect opportunity to really show what he had and get the crowd behind him. HBK had his chance it was just the fact that nobody bought into his lame gimmick of a sexy boy sure he could wrestle but come on the sexy boy beating Vader was just ridiculous and I know the rest of the WWE fans felt the same way. He could not draw ratings or sell out arenas and the company was doomed to go out of business. Then his ego and faking injuries so he wouldn't have to lose to Bret Hart at wrestlemania 13 makes him even more a paper champion. Unlucky isn't the term he is one of the worse WWE champions of all times and the numbers of ratings, merchandising, arenas, and shows during early 96 to beginning of 97 prove it.

 

[Dmbfantomas]

Absolutely not. He wasn't unlucky...he was just kind of a terrible champ. He got one of the best rubs ever after being able to go over after the Ironman match. His gimmick sucked, his attitude sucked, and he couldn't connect with the audience. Revisionist history makes Shawn look a lot better during this period than he was. Taking those four years off and then coming back helped him out a lot. Not only did we get a chance to stop being sick of him, but when he came back he was exponentially better, which in turn, made his previous run look better to those who didn't remember it as much.

The unluckiest champ was probably Mick Foley, only because going into it the E had no purpose for his reigns but to be a transitional champion, as opposed to getting a real reign. I think Foley could have really been both a credible, but a highly popular long term champion.

 

[Peoples_Champ]

There was a bit of bad luck with Shawn, but I don't attribute that to HBK or WCW, I place the blame on Creative for not having credible threats to Michael's title reign. It took 6 months until I finally believed someone could take the title from Michaels - and that was Mankind. I had already known all the opponents leading up to him - Sid, Bulldog and Vader - would be irrelevant. By that time, Shawn's championship reign became stagnant IMO.

 

[theBec2101]

I would have to say Kurt Angle, you leave the WWE cause how the treat you and and your run down. So you are on top of your game you go to TNA, and your on top there and the founder is banging your wife. She devorced you and now you work for the man that turned your personel life upside down. but yet you mantain that TNA treats you better. I now he picking twitter war on anyone that performes a wrestling move he has done. goes to a promotion with about 100 fans in attendence, Wife cheated with boss, loss wife to boss, domestic issues with girl friend, dwi/dui, social networksites"hacked", issues with other wrestlers wrestling moves. you want from top guy to what the hell happened to you and your career.

 

[lowandmighty]

Yeah it is pretty unlucky to hit it big right when Hulk Hogan who was indisputably the worlds most loved and famous wrestler suddenly turns heel and forces every wrestling fan in the world to do a double take and stay fixated in disbelief on wcw for a while. Hollywood was pretty funny too.

WWF would've fared far worse though if Shawn hadn't been there to carry the flag.
So he's unlucky as an individual but the WWF was lucky to have someone with his charisma.
You could say Shawn Micheals saved the WWF.

 

[thrashtastic]

Shawn Michaels had a lot of things against him as a champion at that time, including the nWo, the lack of talent, not getting over with the male fans, and even his own shit attitude.

His back injury was the best thing that could have happened to him, really. He found his wife, who helped him find God and himself. Who would have thought a Nitro Girl could help HBK so he could eventually come back and fix his legacy?