Was HBK The Unluckiest Champion Ever?

[Pay Per Ghost]

Now growing up as a huge Shawn Micheals mark, I always thought his run and his work were untouchable. His grace and high flying, promos and charisma made him, quite abashedly I say this, an idol to me.


Now Shawn won his first title at WM 12 in a an epic (maybe I'm alone) Ironman match and cemented his Main Event status. This is March of 1996. His run going good and a program with Psycho Sid was keeping him busy. There was a stellar sentimental storyline involving his trainer Jose Lothario and something and manic nature of Sid was a pretty good angle.

But by this time Hall and Nash go down south and change wrestling, figuratively? no literally.


With the emergence of nWo the real wrestling sparring started and yadi yadi ya, we know all about the Monday Night Wars but all this was happening during Shawn's reign. Remember this. The WWF lost the ratings war during Shawn's reign and this only fueled to the fire of nepotism and inability to draw of Micheals. Now Shawn wasn't working with dullards. The Kliq all had good workers. His feud with Ramon was epic and the feud with Nash wasn't as dull as I can remember. He had a good program with Vader, Sid, Taker and delivered good match after match. Prick backstage? Sure. He's said it himself. A problem dropping the belt? Maybe. But unfortunate to be champion when the rival has the hottest storyline? Abso-fuckin'-lutely.


Discussion please.

 

[HBKperfect23]

Couldnt agree more. Obviously Im a huge HBK mark as well. The talent pool was horrible at this time and WCW was at the height of its popularity. Shawn was one of the worst drawing champions ever because of this but he was knocking it out of the park night in and night out. Many that were with the WWF at the time said they were getting killed in the ratings and it would be scary to think where they'd be without Michaels.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Probably ended up being a good thing in terms of his legacy though. Shawn Michaels (and Bret Hart for that matter) were the top guys in the WWF when the overall product was bad and when their had stiff competition in WCW. The fact that HBK kept the WWF in business just enough for WCW to self-implode probably did wonders for his stock in the WWF/E.

 

[Pedigree1]

Now growing up as a huge Shawn Micheals mark, I always thought his run and his work were untouchable. His grace and high flying, promos and charisma made him, quite abashedly I say this, an idol to me.


Now Shawn won his first title at WM 12 in a an epic (maybe I'm alone) Ironman match and cemented his Main Event status. This is March of 1996. His run going good and a program with Psycho Sid was keeping him busy. There was a stellar sentimental storyline involving his trainer Jose Lothario and something and manic nature of Sid was a pretty good angle.

But by this time Hall and Nash go down south and change wrestling, figuratively? no literally.


With the emergence of nWo the real wrestling sparring started and yadi yadi ya, we know all about the Monday Night Wars but all this was happening during Shawn's reign. Remember this. The WWF lost the ratings war during Shawn's reign and this only fueled to the fire of nepotism and inability to draw of Micheals. Now Shawn wasn't working with dullards. The Kliq all had good workers. His feud with Ramon was epic and the feud with Nash wasn't as dull as I can remember. He had a good program with Vader, Sid, Taker and delivered good match after match. Prick backstage? Sure. He's said it himself. A problem dropping the belt? Maybe. But unfortunate to be champion when the rival has the hottest storyline? Abso-fuckin'-lutely.


Discussion please.

Agreed!! Like you said 1996 was a bad time for WWE/WWF at that time but michaels busted his ass taking on basically all giants at that time!! Taker,Vader,Psycho Sid, hell his matches with nash were great IMO!! The Kliq were solid performers during that stretch also. Again good post man

 

[bigbootydaddyV]

I'd say Bret Hart was the unluckiest champion of all time... he had to follow Hulk Hogan AND he had to carry the company on his back right after the steroid scandal damn near killed it. I think WCW coming up really helped Shawn on the other hand, he was the only other one there who could be champion, and by not leaving it was that much better for him as he was in the right place at the right time... with his attitude, if there were others there he'd have been in trouble. There is no doubt that he was putting on some great matches and I agree WM12 was EPIC but he wasn't as marketable at this time bc his image was worse than John Cena's. He wasn't someone the kids could look up to nor was he someone grown men would cheer for. So I think the circumstances at the time ended up giving him a lot of opportunity.

 

[FutureChamp328]

Actually I remember hearing that this bad luck was one of the reasons Shawn's personal problems got as bad as they did. When all of this was happening and he was the champ a lot of people blamed him for not getting them out of the rut they were in. Obviously Shawn couldn't control the ratings all on his own but it really got to him that he was busting his ass and nothing seemed to work which really drove him over the edge with the drugs and alcohol.

 

[smokeyjoe414]

IMO shawn was unlucky as champ as he was forced to retire twice as champ; 1st off for his knee ( although bret hart would claim it was a ploy to skip out on a WM rematch)
and secondly when he destroyed his back vs undertaker ( yes he wrestled austin at mainia but basicly his career was over the moment he hit that casket)
I totally agree with the points made about the ratings war with WCW, and conclude that yes HBK was a very unlucky champ

 

[Wald]

Shawn was his own worst enemy and the SuperCena like push he received didn't do him any favours.

Let's actually look at why he didn't get over with the crowd as face champion, and he didn't, by looking at his feuds over the title.

vs Bret Hart leading into Wrestlemania 12 - Shawn was booked as the cocky character he always played, a flashy guy who gets the girls and doesn't care what anyone thinks about him. Bret was booked as the hard working, down to earth, underdog that rose to the top and stayed there because he was that good.

No surprises that Bret got more cheers than Shawn around this time, Shawn was basically booked as a character that men couldn't identify with. Bret was almost a forerunner for the Steve Austin character, a working class hero to be proud of. Vince should take most of the blame for that, Shawn should have known that he needed to change his character up.

The promo video says it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sm0f887rLM

vs Diesel for In Your House - First of a pattern to follow whereby Shawn overcomes all odds to somehow take the gold home, something a lot of people hate Cena for today. Anyway Diesel was well on his way to perfecting the Kevin Nash/nWo character that got him massively over. Watch the match and the males in the audience want Diesel to win by the end, especially after Shawn gets beaten up for the entire match and wins with relative ease at the end.

This should have told Vince and Shawn that this stacking the odds for him to overcome wasn't working with winning over the men in the audience, sadly they stuck with through the next feud

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Uwwa6Uj35E

Around this time the obnoxious Kliq Kam started appearing too, that was one of the lamest things a WWF/E champion has ever done and further alienated from anyone that wasn't a kid or that didn't want to have sex with him.

Next proper feud was with Vader. Again a monster heel, who had been crushing all in front of him, but one that Shawn would heroically overcome. The Summerslam match was very poorly booked, in that Shawn looked like he wanted to get the hell out of there like a coward with a count out and DQ loss, before eventually besting Vader. We know now that HBK pulled a creative card, as Vader was originally supposed to win the title here to lose back to HBK at a later date, and even before the IWC existed it was obvious to a lot in the crowd that that should have happened, given the way the feud was booked. It made no sense to blow off Vader like this, he was getting very over as a heel, but HBK decided he didn't want to work with him and that was that.

A great match, but a throwaway feud followed with Mankind. Vince should have steppe din here and realised that Foley had the tools to get HBK over with the section of the crowd he couldn't, but didn't pull the trigger on a proper run here. The nWo were up and running by now, which didn't help the Kliq Kam's coolness one bit.

On to Psycho Sid. Yet another monster for HBK to go over, although this time they had a twist in the tale. All reports indicate that HBK was supposed to hold the belt til Wrestlemania 13 to drop to Bret, but HBK and Vince wisely decided that dropping the title to Sid, so that he could win it back in his hometown of San Antonio, might get him some of the face champion heat he was lacking.

At the Survivor Series though the New York crowd were so behind Sid that it made HBK look very, very bad. This is the match where HBK really lost his cool with the audience and goes pretty mental at them. hell the audience even cheered Lothario getting knocked out by Sid, such was their hatred for HBK.

Also watch the ending after Sid has won, way to sell the powerbomb and camera shot Shawn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhv6Siz5Wi8

So Shawn wins it back in his hometown, but we all know what happened then with the fake knee injury. That killed Shawn as a face, Bret even called him out live on Raw for faking the injury, confirming in most people's eyes what they suspected.

So who to blame?

Vince and Shawn are much more to blame than the nWo for Shawn's awful 1996 run. They should have realised after the Diesel match that they needed to change his character slightly, they should definitely have known after the Mankind match that HBK needed a wrinkle in his lame fan favourite gimmick. He was SuperCena x1000 and the male audience pretty much hated him for it. The nWo didn't come into play until after the Vader match, keep that in mind, by that stage he was being booed out of the building pretty regularly

 

[HBKperfect23]

Shawn was his own worst enemy and the SuperCena like push he received didn't do him any favours.

Let's actually look at why he didn't get over with the crowd as face champion, and he didn't, by looking at his feuds over the title.

You contradict yourself on the SuperCena push later in this post by your comments in the Vader feud. He was over as champion, the problem was he was the only face over in the company for most of is run.

vs Diesel for In Your House - First of a pattern to follow whereby Shawn overcomes all odds to somehow take the gold home, something a lot of people hate Cena for today. Anyway Diesel was well on his way to perfecting the Kevin Nash/nWo character that got him massively over. Watch the match and the males in the audience want Diesel to win by the end, especially after Shawn gets beaten up for the entire match and wins with relative ease at the end.

Thats what a face does to get over. Who would beleive Shawn could go out there and dominate a guy 1'/100+ lbs bigger then him.

Next proper feud was with Vader. Again a monster heel, who had been crushing all in front of him, but one that Shawn would heroically overcome. The Summerslam match was very poorly booked, in that Shawn looked like he wanted to get the hell out of there like a coward with a count out and DQ loss, before eventually besting Vader. We know now that HBK pulled a creative card, as Vader was originally supposed to win the title here to lose back to HBK at a later date, and even before the IWC existed it was obvious to a lot in the crowd that that should have happened, given the way the feud was booked. It made no sense to blow off Vader like this, he was getting very over as a heel, but HBK decided he didn't want to work with him and that was that.

Vader was no where near over like he was in WCW. I did hear he was orginally peniciled in for Sids run at Survivor Series but was replaced because he wasnt over. Not sure where you heard he was supposed to win at Summerslam.

At the Survivor Series though the New York crowd were so behind Sid that it made HBK look very, very bad. This is the match where HBK really lost his cool with the audience and goes pretty mental at them. hell the audience even cheered Lothario getting knocked out by Sid, such was their hatred for HBK.

NY crowds are notorious for routing for heels. Flair over Hogan at the 92rumble, was Hogan not over either?

So Shawn wins it back in his hometown, but we all know what happened then with the fake knee injury. That killed Shawn as a face, Bret even called him out live on Raw for faking the injury, confirming in most people's eyes what they suspected.

So the knee injury was confirmed as fake because his bitter enemy (who is jealous of him) is calling him out?

 

[Wald]

Why do HBK fans always bring it back to Bret?

Listen to the boos in those videos, he wasn't over with the crowds. Don't believe me? Look at the ratings.

On the knee injury, believe what you want, but he said his career was over and that all the muscle had been torn off his knee. Strange that he was able to resume his terminated career almost immediately after Wrestlemania 13 though wasn't it?

Like I said, believe whatever you want

 

[HBKperfect23]

I beleive you brought Bret into it. I am personally a fan of both. Its seems to me the ones who prefer Bret have a blind hatred towards Michaels even after the two have got past their heat.

Shawn wasnt over with which crowd?, the one that knocked the guard rail down trying to get to him? Shawn was told by doctor and later told it was so bad he couldnt do any further damage to it, why is that so hard to beleive?

 

[rokuma]

On the knee injury, believe what you want, but he said his career was over and that all the muscle had been torn off his knee. Strange that he was able to resume his terminated career almost immediately after Wrestlemania 13 though wasn't it?

Yeah, it's also very strange that he had a debilitating back injury and continued his career after that too right? It's obvious when you watch his matches after his first retirement that his knees weren't the best. He didn't hop up to the ropes like he used to, he wasn't as fast (which some comes with age), and fact is, and Shawn has said this, the knee injury wasn't new. He was told by Dr. James Andrews that it should be career ending, but he kept working through it, even after he vacated the title.

I think Shawn was the unluckiest champ ever. I mean the WWF roster at the time was pathetic. Sure, Razor and Diesel were there in April, but that was it. They turned Yokozuna face, Sid was a face, Vader was the monster heel that didn't get over, Bret left after Wrestlemania for what seemed like forever, Austin wasn't there yet, Owen and Davey were his biggest rivals, Jake the Snake was past his prime, Warrior no-showed everything...it was just WEAK. And then Hall and Nash invade WCW and WCW becomes the hottest promotion in the world, so yeah, I think bad luck and poor planning on Vince's part had a lot to do with it.

In fact, if Shawn won the title in 1995 at WM 11, he might've had better feuds with Bret, Diesel, Razor, Owen, Davey, Sid, Yokozuna, and WCW wouldn't have been the competitor it was.

 

[PlayTheGame]

I'm not sure if it makes him the unluckiest champion ever, as his difficulties as champ were certainly made worse by his backstage antics, his prick-like personality, and his alleged unwillingness to drop the belt, but I would say that this era may have been one of the hardest to be WWE Champion in, period. Obviously, the WWE was getting its butt kicked by WCW, and many people took the easy way out (whether they were right or wrong) and blamed HBK for WWE's hardships. They reasoned that since he was manning the ship, he was the reason why the ship was going down. I remember J.R. said in an interview that this era was very, very difficult for HBK, because he took all those criticisms to heart. He said the Shawn wrongly got some of the blame for this era, but got blamed nonetheless. To finally become WWE Champion must have been great for Shawn, but the unfortunate hardships that came along with it during this era must have almost negated the good feelings. Almost like a bittersweet time to be champion. I'd definitely say, at least, that HBK had one of the most difficult title runs.

 

[HeenanGorilla]

I think the unluckiest champ ever was Sgt. Slaughter. Because his lifelong dream of selling out the LA Coliseum was thwarted by sniper threats. How unlucky, and ironic, that the very gimmick that afforded him the chance to main event Wrestlemania was the very same reason he couldn't do so in its original venue. Bad luck!

 

[Loveless]

On the knee injury, believe what you want, but he said his career was over and that all the muscle had been torn off his knee. Strange that he was able to resume his terminated career almost immediately after Wrestlemania 13 though wasn't it?

Let's see then

He relinquishes the belt on February 13th
Misses Final Four
Misses Wrestlemania
Misses IYH14
Misses IYH15
Match Vs Austin at KotR
Misses IYH16
Misses Summerslam (not active at least)

Returns at IYH17 on September 7th. He was actually back briefly in May before injuring himself again, namely because he came back too early due to the bitching. 7 months out, yeah he just went back to normal after Wrestlemania
As far as being unlucky, yes he was horribly unlucky. He got stuck with a WWF in disarray & the NWO first time, a knee injury the 2nd time and a horrendous back injury the 3rd time. Regarding the fans he actually had a lot of support around WM12 but it changed, not because of him, but because of the changes in wrestling at that time. No babyface was ever going to get cheered.

 

[Wald]

I brought Bret into by saying Shawn and Bret feuded at WM 12 and Bret called Shawn on the fake injury live on air, all things that happened. You brought Bret into by saying he's jealous of Shawn. Big difference.

Also, and this one is to Loveless, Shawn's career ending back injury that put him out for 4 years is now being compared to his career ending 'knee' injury that put him out for 3 months? Give me a break. Shawn was wrestling up until 3 days before the 'Lost My Smile' promo I believe, your muscle build up doesn't just simply vanish over night, so he was at least lying about the extent of the injury.

 

[Fenris]

Unlucky.... I would say not really. Matter of fact he was quite fortunate in many respects, getting a huge boost beforehand with the ratings, a boost Hart didn't get before him nor Austin after him.

Let's briefly return to Wrestlemania 12, a different match on the card. Ratings, buyrates and gate attendance was down across the board, a culmination of Yokozuna and Diesel being made two lackluster champions that fans weren't interested in and the whole steroid trial. Vince makes a phone call, draws up a massive contract and lures the Ultimate Warrior back to the WWF. With Warrior came 2 million people.

Warriors Raw debut drew a 4.7 rating. Subsequent ratings were in the high 3's, a full 2 points higher than Nitro on average. When UW left again those fans also left. Why? Because Michaels wasn't a wrestler that they bought into as the top guy and didn't want to see. It didn't help that we had to sit through his political games and faking injuries everytime it came to doing jobs. Including the phony little "knee injury" and "I lost my smile" moment blowing a years worth of the WWF hyping the big rematch.

But back to the ratings regarding "poor Shawn." I tossed it on here once before but people can go dig it up check the entire ratings spectrum then contrast it against what was going on. Put the belt on Shawn the ratings tank, take the belt off Shawn the ratings slowly would start creeping back up. He's not a draw, never was. In fact he nearly put the WWF out of business, thankfully Austin came along and got hot because the WWF was about out of money and done for under Shawns reign of terror.

 

[Fenris]

I brought Bret into by saying Shawn and Bret feuded at WM 12 and Bret called Shawn on the fake injury live on air, all things that happened. You brought Bret into by saying he's jealous of Shawn. Big difference.

Also, and this one is to Loveless, Shawn's career ending back injury that put him out for 4 years is now being compared to his career ending 'knee' injury that put him out for 3 months? Give me a break. Shawn was wrestling up until 3 days before the 'Lost My Smile' promo I believe, your muscle build up doesn't just simply vanish over night, so he was at least lying about the extent of the injury.

You'll notice throughout Shawns career his injuries would only creep up and get bad right after he was asked to put someone over. Put Shane Douglas over? Owwww Vince, my concussion just returned. Put Bret over in the rematch owwww Vince, my knee is killin' me and I lost my smile aboohoohoo. You ARE putting Austin over. Ummm, ohh, uhhh my back is broken, I gotta retire afterwards but i'm gonna do the WWF a favor and drop the title.

Funny how those injuries kept coinciding with doing jobs. Funnier still his miraculous recoveries soon as he's got an opening to politic the top slot back onto him. Including the fake back injury Jesus came down and healed at the tent revival as soon as the Klique returned to the WWE and Austin/Rock were on the way out. Pass that collection plate brother Vinnie Mac.

 

[Wald]

But back to the ratings regarding "poor Shawn." I tossed it on here once before but people can go dig it up check the entire ratings spectrum then contrast it against what was going on. Put the belt on Shawn the ratings tank, take the belt off Shawn the ratings slowly would start creeping back up. He's not a draw, never was. In fact he nearly put the WWF out of business, thankfully Austin came along and got hot because the WWF was about out of money and done for under Shawns reign of terror.

I did this once before on a different wrestling forum, was interesting seeing the downward trend of HBK's reigns.

It's funny to think that Austin vs HBK was the main event of the lowest rated Raw in history as well. Nitro had the Outsiders vs Harlem Heat has it's main event too, so it's not like it was Hogan vs Flair it wa sup against or anything.

This was leading up to Bret making Austin a star though I guess, but it really does show that Shawn didn't connect with the male audience during his face run as Champion

 

[HBKperfect23]

Who didnt know the HBK haters would bring up him "not wanting to drop titles"? You want to talk about not doing jobs and only dropping them to friends. Since he inevitably got brought into this, lets talk about Shawns biggest acuser: Mr Hart. The Bulldogs screwed the Rougeaus out of title reign to give them to family members: The Harts. Bret didnt want to drop the title to the Mountie and disgruntly did so with "a 104 degree fever" at a house show. Bret was supposed to drop the IC title to Shawn at Summerslam 92 but instead decided he wanted to drop it to his brother in law. Bret complained about dropping the title to Backlund because of his age (he later took it back and said hes glad he did so). Bret didnt think it was fair he had to drop the title to Shawn at WM12 because "it took away from his great matches with Nash, Bulldog, Taker". Bret wouldnt put ANYBODY over on his way out the door in 97, he insisted on forfiting the title. Why is ok for him to refuse to job but its a problem when HBK cant job because of injury ? Not only was Shawn the unluckiest champion and got the most undeserved criticism.

 

[WolfNyte]

Let us not forget his worst issue of all his firing in 93 due to steroids and the incident in Saracuse NY where he had his ass handed to him and had to legit hand his title over to Shane Douglas.

 

[Wald]

Who didnt know the HBK haters would bring up him "not wanting to drop titles"? You want to talk about not doing jobs and only dropping them to friends. Since he inevitably got brought into this, lets talk about Shawns biggest acuser: Mr Hart. The Bulldogs screwed the Rougeaus out of title reign to give them to family members: The Harts. Bret didnt want to drop the title to the Mountie and disgruntly did so with "a 104 degree fever" at a house show. Bret was supposed to drop the IC title to Shawn at Summerslam 92 but instead decided he wanted to drop it to his brother in law. Bret complained about dropping the title to Backlund because of his age (he later took it back and said hes glad he did so). Bret didnt think it was fair he had to drop the title to Shawn at WM12 because "it took away from his great matches with Nash, Bulldog, Taker". Bret wouldnt put ANYBODY over on his way out the door in 97, he insisted on forfiting the title. Why is ok for him to refuse to job but its a problem when HBK cant job because of injury ? Not only was Shawn the unluckiest champion and got the most undeserved criticism.

Your first point is the British Bulldogs not wanting to drop the titles, nothing to do with Bret
Your second point, the Mountie was a joke character, not surprised Bret didn't want to drop to him. He still did though.
Your third point, never heard of that one. Even if he didn't then it made perfect business sense to drop the title to the Bulldog in London. How successful that event was vindicates him. He still dropped the title too.
Your fourth point is wrong, he said he'd put over Austin, Taker, Foley, whoever really. Just not Shawn because of what Shawn did for WM 13.

None of those points negate the fact that Shawn was an awful World Champion, quite possibly the worst face champion the WWF ever had up until the Attitude era began the process of turning the belt into a joke. He wasn't unlucky, his character just wasn't what it should have been and neither Vince or Shawn had the sense to see that

 

[HBKperfect23]

I guess we wont be able to come to agreement here. I want to point out that Im a big fan of Brets and think he is one of the best ever. I just cant see how Shawn gets heat for not dropping titles but Bret doesnt. Both he and Shawn had poor attitudes at the time. I do beleive Shawn had legit injurys and didnt dodge doing jobs.

His character did get over. He was over big in 96. But he was the only player on the team during the majority of his title runs. Compare it to baseball, if a team has one ace pitcher, is it his fault that the team doesnt win the world series?

 

[MrMojoRisin]

I beleive you brought Bret into it. I am personally a fan of both. Its seems to me the ones who prefer Bret have a blind hatred towards Michaels even after the two have got past their heat.

Shawn wasnt over with which crowd?, the one that knocked the guard rail down trying to get to him? Shawn was told by doctor and later told it was so bad he couldnt do any further damage to it, why is that so hard to beleive?

I'm not sure I'm getting the context of this quote:

Shawn's doctor told him the career ending knee injury was so bad he couldn't do any further damage to it... so that's why he was back prancing around very shortly after losing his smile?

Is that it? Did the doctor tell him that his knee was so messed up that he couldn't possibly hurt it any worse... so just get right back in the ring and do your thing?

Did this 'doctor' lose their license right after those words came out of his mouth? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying here?

 

[HBKperfect23]

Shawn's doctor told him the career ending knee injury was so bad he couldn't do any further damage to it... so that's why he was back prancing around very shortly after losing his smile?

Is that it? Did the doctor tell him that his knee was so messed up that he couldn't possibly hurt it any worse... so just get right back in the ring and do your thing?

Did this 'doctor' lose their license right after those words came out of his mouth? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying here?

Shawns doctor told him his knee was so bad he couldnt wrestle on it again. He got a 2nd opinion from a doctor who works with athletes (I want to say it was Dr Andrews). The 2nd doctor told him his knee is so messed up he wouldnt do any further damage to it, he would just be in constant pain.