Truly a Star without the WWE or WCW

[Kidpolean]

Ok so I was watching videos on youtube and I came across an interview with the new age outlaws. The guy doing the interview stated that Samoa Joe was a huge star before tna, and Billy Gunn replied with "where." They pretty much said that you cant be a huge star unless you wrestled for WWE. This of course was after WCW was brought out so I included it in this thread. The referred to top wrestlers in ROH as Big fish in small ponds. They also stated that these guys should only be consider good wrestlers and never as huge stars. They said that the guys, such as Samoa Joe, get to big organizations like WWE or TNA and find out that they are not as good as they thought they were.

I saw a lot of arguments in the comment box so I decided to see what you guys think about this. Can you be a huge star and not have wrestled for WWE or WCW ( This is current so im not talking about legends that wrestled before WWE and WCW were the top companies).

My opinion is that you CANT be a huge star if you never wrestled for WWE/WCW. I agree 100 percent with the new age outlaws. While ROH has good wrestlers, I don't think that they have a big enough fan base to make someone a huge star. I know huge wrestling fans that don't even know what ROH is. I don't think the internet can make you a huge star no matter how good you actually are.

 

[StonewallBrigade]

Probably 99% of the general public has never heard of ROH, so how could anyone who has only wrestled there or in just the indies, be a "huge star"?

So, I agree.

 

[Charismatic Enigma]

Of course you can't. In most people's minds WWE and WCW are the only wrestling promotions that ever existed. That's like saying you can be a star in football by playing in the arena league instead of the NFL.

I think you can have incredible ability, but not be a star. Colt Cabana is probably the closest one could ever come, but even he technically was in WWE, though I'd still say 99% of the people that like him only do so because of his association with Punk and interviews with people they've heard of, otherwise he'd just be another indy guy. Which isn't to say he's not incredibly talented, just that it's impossible to really be a star without the platform to shine.

 

[zhaff2004]

If you're talking about North America (Which I'm assuming you are) then I'd say no, you can't. However, should you look at it from a more global perspective, then the answer is yes. There are plenty of superstars in Japan, Mexico and Puerto Rico who have never wrestled in either WcW or WWE.

 

[ASKane]

In MMA your not a top star if you compete in the UFC. In American Football your not a top star unless you do it in the NFL and the same goes for NHL, MLB and NBA. The same goes for pro wrestling, if you don't do it in the top promotion your not a top star. To be the best you need to beat the best. The best in pro wrestling are not in ROH, TNA or any other promotion except WWE

 

[Jstrike]

Well sting never wrestled for wwe and he's a star, but he did wrestle in wcw.
i disagree aj style's got a huge fanbase he's known good, and he's never been under contract with wwe, new age outlaw's don't have that big of a fan base, i hate the new age outlaw's how dare washed up guy's say stuff about the wrestling business? when was the last time new age outlaw's ran a company? oh wait never. when did new age outlaw's ever be the face of the company oh wait never! new age outlaw's need's to understand the difference of being a big fish in a big pond, or a big fish in a little pond, either way there's a big fish!
regardless whether someone wrestle's in wwe or wcw.
what about ecw?
you know them huge star's that got huge cause of ecw?
remeber taz? he went to wwe at sometime, but all taz's legacy is the ecw!
for new age outlaw's to say that make's me upset, cause new age outlaw's has never been a big fish! just guy's with big fishes like hhh and hbk

 

[lil bitch Kid]

Look, while I agree with the premise that you aren't a huge star unless you've done time in the E or WCW, I think there are guys who have been big stars in spite of their time in the E and WCW. Some that comes to mind are Raven, Rhino, RVD, Mike Awesome, etc. With the exception of Awesome, who was big in Japan, a lot of the guys that fit the category have been ECW guys. The E, maybe with the exception of RVD, never used Rhino and Raven to their full potential.

So, sure, in theory, if you didn't compete in the E and/or WCW, you can't really be seen as having made it, but some guys were big before they got there and remained big in spite of there treatment.

 

[Dagron]

I agree but with a caveat. When ROH came out, the buzz it was generating was somewhat comparable to what ECW was garnering. Some of us drove 6-8 hours each way just for a chance to see in person guys we had heard about like Punk, Joe, Danielson, Stryker, Aries, Christopher Daniels.... looking at that list in retrospect, that's a fairly loaded card, but ROH was routinely putting on shows loaded with these cats and it was pretty awesome. Now, does the fact that you put on a bunch of four star matches in venues that seat 3,000 and have yourself a reputation and a name make you a "huge" star? No, not really, but it gave guys a certain credibility, a certain reputation, a certain vibe or mystique where a subset of the audience in a different organization would know the guy and go ballistic when he shows up and the rest want to see what all the fuss is about.

So can you be a "huge star" without being in the WWE? Not really. But you can still be A star (no pun intended).

 

[The Dragon Saga]

This threads title may as well be, "Hey Guys, Just Discovered 2 + 2 = 4."

Of course you can't be a "huge star" in the business when you're working for ROH, PWG, Dragon Gate, etc, etc, it can't be done. You can be a recognizable name to hardcore wrestling fans such as say Kevin Steen or Davey Richards but they know their not huge stars. No regional promotion such as ROH or indy promotion such as PWG will ever brag about having "huge stars," they know they don't and It'd be asinine to say otherwise.

What they often do however is bring in International stars, guys known internationally in the wrestling business such as KENTA, Kenta Kobashi, Marafuji, Morishima, Jushin Liger, etc, etc, which where the "huge star" phrase may be utilized but even then I doubt commentators or a promotional strategy would use that phrase.

Or they base it off the guys talent. Bryan was the original "Best In The World" and he used that to market himself to fans for the better part of two years as an egotistical heel and his persona revolved around the fact that here was a guy who you wanted to punch in the face but couldn't deny how good he was. Was Bryan a "huge star" prior to WWE? No. But he had a name in the wrestling business, not one that stretched into the casuals but one that got him enough attention to be relevant outside of WWE, WCW and TNA.

 

[Slash-LN]

They said that the guys, such as Samoa Joe, get to big organizations like WWE or TNA and find out that they are not as good as they thought they were.

I quoted this because this is the part I take issue with. Didn't Joe get to TNA and become a star there along with quite a few other guys who were in companies like ROH? Wasn't he just as good in TNA as he was in ROH?


Guys like CM Punk and Daniel Bryan have been as good in the WWE as they were in the indies.

One poster above made a good point about if we're just talking about the U.S. or if we're talking about worldwide. A guy like Tensai is probably a much bigger star in Japan than he is in the WWE.

Some of these indie guys have wrestled in companies all over the world and have established a following all around the world.

If we're only talking about American popularity then yeah I guess you could say you're not really a "star" unless you're in one of the two major companies. (They mentioned TNA so I'm counting it.) However at the same time being in either company doesn't even make you a star in my opinion. You still have to establish yourself and gain a following. Are guys like Colin Delaney and Zach Gowen stars because they were in the WWE at one point?

I don't like the thinking that if you aren't a star in America you aren't a star. That's pretty short sighted and ignorant.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Generally speaking, I have to agree with Gunn. In the United States, if you haven't worked for WWE or WCW in the past 25-30 years, then you're not going to be viewed by the majority of fans as a big star. That's just simply how it is. That doesn't mean there aren't great wrestlers out there who haven't worked for WWE or WCW at all, because everyone knows that isn't true.

There are a lot of baseball players and baseball leagues out there. But if you're not playing MBL, then you're not gonna be thought of as a star. Doesn't mean there isn't a lot of talent in the minor leagues, but most people don't think of that talent as being a star unless they're playing in the big leagues. The exact same perception exists in pretty much every form of entertainment. In the United States pro wrestling circle, WWE is the major leagues and WCW was before going under. You can be someone who makes a good living and is a "huge star" in other countries with promotions like New Japan Pro Wrestling, All Japan Pro Wrestling, CMLL and AAA. But here in the states, if you're not a WCW and/or WWE guy, it's just not gonna happen.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

The strange thing is that this can be stretched out to include the WWe today. Outside of John Cena, name a WWe guy likely to be known by the man on the street? As far as 'casual' wrestling fans - I do believe that the IWC does underestimate how much they might know about the business. WWeCW & NXT showed that guys who had made a name from the Indies might actually be better known than we'd give them credit for (Punk, Danielson, Low-Ki).

As to the NAO making these comments... yet another example of exWWe guys being disrespectful to the company who paid them when the WWe wanted nothing to do with them (even with their bestie having so much sway).

 

[ABMorales787]

Weird. El Santo was a massive international star. Don't recall seeing him in WWE or WCW. Gorgeous George did it before WWE was anything important. In Puerto Rico everybody, wrestling fan or not, knows who are Carlos Colon, Abdullah The Butcher and Bruiser Brody. In Mexico everyone knows who's Blue Demon or Mil Mascaras. Same in Japan with Jushin Liger and Antonio Inoki. Though both Inoki and Mascaras did compete in WWE, did anyone of the other names have a notable stint? Nope. But they're still pop cultural icons in their respective country.

You have to be pretty dense to think WWE is the only wrestling fed that can produce a major star. Wrestling is in a down low in the U.S. alone.