Time for a new Faction.

[AegonTargaryen]

Therein lies your problem; it isn't innovative. It isn't novel. It isn't even that good of an idea (minimizing an already shallow mid card division, for the sake of a stable). I've pointed out your flaws, you returned with stuff I doubt you even know the meaning of.

Let's start with this; the xenophobia gimmick is old, and it isn't getting over (see; Rusev, Alexander). So why should I believe four people doing a gimmick that's stale (with a stable idea that is stale) will work?

Edit; regarding my "creativity". You do realize I'm a member of WZCW creative, right? Meaning, my job is to come up with feuds and angles, and tell people if their ideas suck or not. I'm fairly comfortable with my creativity.

As stated above, "Fallacy "Argument from (personal) incredulity (divine fallacy, appeal to common sense) – I cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it must be false."

Fallacy#2 "Inconsistent comparison – where different methods of comparison are used, leaving one with a false impression of the whole comparison."

Besides, you're mishmashing Jack Swagger and Xenophobia with the idea of a pro-European faction, 3-4 guys who are of European Descent or otherwise a contrast to the very usual, abundant and prominent Americanist WWE Programming. Sheamus is a contrast to John Cena who can be called the modern day Hulk Hogan. So is Wade Barrett. The entire idea of the faction NEVER had anything to do with Racism or Xenophobia. It was clearly and loudly about Pro-Europe, Pro-Domination(like the Shield), Pro-Change. Change from the reptitive programming that exists currently.

 

[Con T.]

As stated above, "Fallacy "Argument from (personal) incredulity (divine fallacy, appeal to common sense) – I cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it must be false."

Fallacy#2 "Inconsistent comparison – where different methods of comparison are used, leaving one with a false impression of the whole comparison."

Besides, you're mishmashing Jack Swagger and Xenophobia with the idea of a pro-European faction, 3-4 guys who are of European Descent or otherwise a contrast to the very usual, abundant and prominent Americanist WWE Programming. Sheamus is a contrast to John Cena who can be called the modern day Hulk Hogan. So is Wade Barrett. The entire idea of the faction NEVER had anything to do with Racism or Xenophobia. It was clearly and loudly about Pro-Europe, Pro-Domination(like the Shield), Pro-Change. Change from the reptitive programming that exists currently.

You don't seem to realize that when I mention xenophobia, I'm specifically pointing towards the audience's xenophobia, as that's usually what's preyed upon when it comes to the foreigner gimmick. A group of four "young" Europeans (which just so happens to me missing Cesaro, but I've been willing to ignore it, because at this point, I feel pity for you) with nationalistic pride towards their home countries (and, likely, superiority when comparing it to America) is actually garnering xenophobic heat towards them.

But I can see where the subtlety of that flew right the fuck over your head.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

You don't seem to realize that when I mention xenophobia, I'm specifically pointing towards the audience's xenophobia, as that's usually what's preyed upon when it comes to the foreigner gimmick. A group of four "young" Europeans (which just so happens to me missing Cesaro, but I've been willing to ignore it, because at this point, I feel pity for you) with nationalistic pride towards their home countries (and, likely, superiority when comparing it to America) is actually garnering xenophobic heat towards them.

But I can see where the subtlety of that flew right the fuck over your head.

I'm tired of winning this argument against you. I'm tired of proving you wrong again and again and again and I proposed an idea and 3 people liked it, I got positive reps as well as negative reps. Once again, I clearly and explicitly state this so you could understand it.

Greek Xenos, is "strange or foreign" and Phobos, "fear" makes up the english word Xenophobia, defined by the concise oxford english dictionary as "xenophobia
n noun intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries.

DERIVATIVES
xenophobe noun
xenophobic adjective"

Now, I already made it explicit that the idea of the faction is three or four pro-European guys whose aim would be to bring diversity to the unidimensional and Americentric product ridden with John Cenas and Daniel Bryans. Wade Barrett is the British aspect, Sheamus, the Irish. They don't "fear" America or American culture. They certainly are not afraid of it. They are just "different", just as William Regal was "different" in his gait, bearing, demeanour, wrestling style , and gimmick. There's a huge difference between Xenophobia, Racism, and Pro-Nationalism. If you had better comprehension skills or understood logic or language , may be you could present an acceptable and valid argument. Until then , I'm really tired of your fallacies , your mishmashing Xenophobia in an idea of a faction which is clearly about Pro-Europeanism and Pro-difference than Racism or Jack Swagger and Xenophobia. I've done possibly everything to bring out your fallacies and errors in your reasoning. I'm just tired of winning now. You can put "n" number of fancy terms such as Xenophobia without actually understanding them, but you're not adding validity to your argument, which has been numerously proven by my citations of logical fallacies. At this point , you'd be better off living in your own bubble of "it's a terrible idea. I don't want a faction" because I don't mind what world or bubble you live in.

 

[shafe_41]

I'm tired of winning this argument against you. I'm tired of proving you wrong again and again and again and I proposed an idea and 3 people liked it, I got positive reps as well as negative reps. Once again, I clearly and explicitly state this so you could understand it.

Greek Xenos, is "strange or foreign" and Phobos, "fear" makes up the english word Xenophobia, defined by the concise oxford english dictionary as "xenophobia
n noun intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries.

DERIVATIVES
xenophobe noun
xenophobic adjective"

Now, I already made it explicit that the idea of the faction is three or four pro-European guys whose aim would be to bring diversity to the unidimensional and Americentric product ridden with John Cenas and Daniel Bryans. Wade Barrett is the British aspect, Sheamus, the Irish. They don't "fear" America or American culture. They certainly are not afraid of it. They are just "different", just as William Regal was "different" in his gait, bearing, demeanour, wrestling style , and gimmick. There's a huge difference between Xenophobia, Racism, and Pro-Nationalism. If you had better comprehension skills or understood logic or language , may be you could present an acceptable and valid argument. Until then , I'm really tired of your fallacies , your mishmashing Xenophobia in an idea of a faction which is clearly about Pro-Europeanism and Pro-difference than Racism or Jack Swagger and Xenophobia. I've done possibly everything to bring out your fallacies and errors in your reasoning. I'm just tired of winning now. You can put "n" number of fancy terms such as Xenophobia without actually understanding them, but you're not adding validity to your argument, which has been numerously proven by my citations of logical fallacies. At this point , you'd be better off living in your own bubble of "it's a terrible idea. I don't want a faction" because I don't mind what world or bubble you live in.

Nobody here is impressed by your knowledge of words and definitions and vocabulary with words more than five syllables. It's a terrible idea. It's a terrible faction. Moreover... it's not "time for a new faction" because the WWE doesn't need one. Most people on this thread agree it's a terrible idea and that they don't need one.

As for positive reps, after 350 posts and your rep being a single lonely red dot, you appear to be a train wreck of terrible ideas and/or arguments. Or that nobody likes you because you smell funny. Doesn't matter to me either way. You can't polish a turd. And your European faction idea... belongs in a porta-potty.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

The last "we're so evil because we don't like America" group I remember enjoying in WWE was the Un-Americans and it was an easy way to gather up some of the post-Invasion scraps for a short-term storyline. Obviously the build to Kane returning with his fancy new mask and clothes before going into his super hot run was great television for a Kane-a-nite.

Currently, the guys who have been mentioned don't need to unite and having 5 3-person groups at the moment is plenty. Sheamus needs something different but digging out his old KOTR crown and gown isn't the answer.

Spoiler

 

[AegonTargaryen]

Nobody here is impressed by your knowledge of words and definitions and vocabulary with words more than five syllables. It's a terrible idea. It's a terrible faction. Moreover... it's not "time for a new faction" because the WWE doesn't need one. Most people on this thread agree it's a terrible idea and that they don't need one.

As for positive reps, after 350 posts and your rep being a single lonely red dot, you appear to be a train wreck of terrible ideas and/or arguments. Or that nobody likes you because you smell funny. Doesn't matter to me either way. You can't polish a turd. And your European faction idea... belongs in a porta-potty.

Oh great! Since you can't be logical and bring up coherent ideas or defenses against my valid arguments, why not use petty insults and commit even more logical fallacies! ? You're the very definition of "dork" and that's all I've got to say! I'll be damned if I spend another 10 minutes constructing logical defenses against an ignoramus such as yourself.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

I disagree with the need for a "European Union" faction, or their relevance.

It has never been inconspicuous that the WWE and WWE fans are truly Americentric and really resist/resent non-American performers which is obvious from the fact that even in a globalized age such as this one, despite no portrayal of Anti-Americanism, a guy like Alexander Rusev decimating Zack Ryder in his debut saw the dumb arena fans chanting USA! USA! USA! (So what!? We all know USA is a nation, a pretty cool nation with democracy and multiculturalism and all but can't you fucking accept that there are more nations and cultures with their own qualities than fucking USA!? ).

I wouldn't leave it at the WWE and WWE fans being "America-centric". That's just Americans in general. But at the same time, I don't really see in the current global climate where Americans in general are as overwhelmingly chest pounding patriotic as they used to be. More are realizing that they live in a global village today, which really does a lot to blur those nationalistic lines... and on top of that, there really isn't much dislike for Europe. To make such a faction work, you'd need to go with a Middle Eastern faction or a Chinese faction (decided lack of potential wrestlers for one of those however).

As for Rusev... fans caught on pretty quick that he's using the old school foreign heel gimmick, and react accordingly with the USA chants. Nothing more, nothing less than that.

For now, USA in wrestling is about the Daniel Bryans, John Cenas(as the babyface representations of boredom), The Shield and a US champion like Dean Ambrose (who is a disgrace to great US champions like Booker T and Chris Benoit), the Batistas, Ortons, and even Hulk Hogan. Thankfully, the fans don't contemptuously chant "USA!" during Cesaro matches and recognize how amazing an athlete Cesaro is. The factions that do exist right now have gotten bland- Shield has no purpose besides decimating Evolution(to be honest they are boring in the babyface role), Evolution is a temporary reunion, and Wyatt Family is more about an Individual named Bray Wyatt than about Factions and Agendas.

I don't even see a point in getting into it with wrestlers you obviously don't like, but I don't really agree with your assessment that todays factions have gotten 'bland'. The Shield has been an awesome faction that still has plenty left in the tank (hardly boring as you put it). Evolution you're correct on, but so what? The Wyatt's, while you are right about how they're about Bray, are still a faction and one of the most interesting ones in quite a long time. Hardly bland.

I realized that Sheamus and Wade Barrett haven't been doing a lot in the last 2 years(Sheamus in particular has been playing the role of a smiling Irish version of John Cena). Alexander Rusev just debuted. Drew McIntyre with his Scottish heritage still exists and even though he might not be the greatest pro-wrestling talent in the world, having him play the role of an idiot participant of a 3-man-band group with Jinder Mahal and that Red-headed guy is shameful. It's do or die for McIntyre- fire him or elevate him. Thus, we have Irish, Scottish, Russian(?), and English and I'd say 2 of those guys are at least worthy world title contenders(Sheamus and Barrett) for the foreseeable future.

OK. Let's go with your suggestion for a minute. How do we make this work? An anti-American foreign faction is obviously going to be heel. To me, this idea hasn't really worked since the Hart Foundation (I know people have said the Un-Americans, but I disagree... they were always Hart Foundation lite at best). The reason the Hart's worked so well was that first they were able to tap into a real sentiment between Canadians and Americans... and secondly because the fans had already started to turn on Bret Hart and they used that as the reason to turn Bret on them. The final reason it worked was because Bret Hart was able to cut an amazing, realistic promo that sealed the entire deal. It's always said around here that Hart was never good on the mic... but in the first half of 1997, if he wasn't the best talker in the business, his name was right there in the conversation.

So who can do all that out of the guys you've offered up?

Seamus - First off, by winning the US title last night, he's entrenched in the mid-card now. He's still a guy that can be inserted into the World title picture in the same way that Kane has been... as in he's a credible opponent that won't win, but can fill that spot until the time comes to do a program with someone that can win. The fans haven't really turned on him... if anything the fans just don't care about him right now, which is awful for a wrestler. With his history, it'd be hard to sell the idea that he hates Americans and I'd also doubt his ability to cut a sincere enough promo to convince the fans that he did. To be the 'leader' of this group, the very first thing he needs is to be built back up so that he's actually relevant.

Barrett - Getting over pretty good with his Bad News gimmick, and would probably derail a lot of the progress he's made if he joined with anyone right now. He's also firmly mid-card for the time being, and has a lot of work to do before he rises above that.

Rusev - He shouldn't be with anyone. Foreign monster heel destroyer character. It just weakens him to have him aligned with a stable of established guys. If they were going to do that, they needed to have an already established guy bring him in, like a Nikita Koloff situation. Having him hook up with an established guy(s) right now would look like a step back for him and an admission that he can't handle the WWE wrestlers on his own.

McIntyre - Too much jobber stink on him to be taken seriously. He needs to go away completely and resurrect his career if he ever wants to be more than what he currently is. Japan is calling his name.

I'm not suggesting we unite them just for the sake of having a new faction. The purpose behind factions is always an organized dissent, a "doing" something and a change "making". Thus should be born a European Union(or whatever you want to call it) comprising those 4 individuals or minus Drew, with a common goal. Unlike The Shield, they really must be portrayed as a group of angry wrestlers of European heritage/descent, sickened and tired of the American Unidimensionalism that goes about in the WWE(Same old John Cena, and now same old overrated and puny Daniel Bryan). The leader should be Sheamus as a full-blown Irish God. A year of decimation of Bryan and Cena, The Shield and any other babyface team/competitor that's willing to step up.

Except there's no reason to buy that guys like Seamus or Barrett would have any American hatred, because they've never shown an inkling of that in the past. What does Seamus have to be mad at Americans about? He's a multi-time WWE champion who's always been positioned very well on the card. Barrett's a multi-time IC champion that likes to mock everyone. To try and say now that they hate Americans would seem forced and unbelievable, which would be their death knell.

Thus, the following things can be done:

1)Wade Barrett can still chase the IC title but belong somewhere and have a Four-Horsemanesque membership and still do his Bad News Barrett thing.

That gimmick doesn't really work in a faction.

2)Alexander Rusev can be more than just another version of Vladimir Kozlov, winning today, booed today, and a partner to Santino tomorrow.

So tired of people here just assuming he's another Kozlov who'll just turn into the straight man for a comedy wrestler. It may happen... or he may be another Nikita Koloff who fights for the World title and is so hated that he can put the fans on the side of a hated heel champion.

3)Sheamus will be the leader. As a proud Irishman, he could bring entertainment and diversity effectively as a heel without having to smile and say "fella", and win world titles, rekindle and revive his old feuds with Cena and Orton and pretty much have 2 years of spotlight before this "faction" meets its eventual dissension.

I haven't been given any reason by Seamus to believe that he could do all that. He's been the serious ass kicker, and the goofy 'fella' guy. He hasn't really shown me at least that he has much range beyond that.

4)Drew Mcintyre isn't needed because he has lost all credibility but if he could be revived and even made remotely credible as a "star", this could be his chance.

He can't. His chance is in the Bullet Club.

Now, we've already seen plenty of factions come and go, some very good, others very bad. Even Anti-American factions are a thing of the past as exemplified by the very pro-canadian Hart Foundation from the late 1990s. But If I'm not mistaken, in the post-1990s, there hasn't really been an impressive European faction with 4 big men. We have seen the Shield. We have seen Evolution and DX. But this faction could be truly different and engaging. I only see one disquality- Mic Work. I'm not so sure Barrett or Sheamus can come week after week and still engage audiences by their verbal artistry as members of a heel faction(especially when Sheamus is involved in WWE WHC picture) in contrast to John Cena and others.

If you could picture a Europeanesque Four Horseman with Sheamus as the WWE WHC, Wade Barrett as the IC champion, and Rusev/Mcintyre as tag champs, would you find it tolerable, entertaining, different or better?

You actually just gave the biggest reason why your idea would never work. These aren't the guys to 'come week after week and still engage audiences by their verbal artistry'. Barrett's the best talker of the bunch, and when that's the case, you have a problem (not saying Barrett is bad, but he should never be the best talker in your group, as seen with the Nexus).

Put these guys all together, and what you have is a mid card stable that is less than the sum of it's parts.