Things that are Doomed to Fail

[JGlass]

Things that are doomed to fail...

The XFL

Chance of Lindsey Lohan winning an Oscar

Sarah Palin for President

And most importantly, a Randy Orton face turn.

Randy Orton's face turn has made absolutely no sense since it's very beginning, and has only gotten even more inexplicable and illogical as it has continued.

As a refresher for everyone, Randy Orton turned face sometime in between Royal Rumble 2010 and Wrestlemania XXVI. Basically, he kept kicking the shit out of Rhodes and DiBiase every time he didn't get his way, and when Rhodes and DiBiase retaliated, fans cheered for him. He went onto defeat the duo in a triple threat at Wrestlemania, and the face push continued.

Orton went onto face, but lose to, Jack Swagger at Extreme Rules. Following this, Orton was speared by a face version of Edge, thus turning Edge heel, while Orton remained face. Since then, there is no doubt that Orton is the most over person in the WWE right now, even after a lackluster feud with Edge and a performance in a Fatal 4 Way match that was overshadowed by Nexus.

Now there are many problems with Randy Orton making a face turn, so I figured I might as well break it down for you.

1) His Character

Randy Orton's character is a cunning but ruthless wrestler who takes out anyone in his way, friend or foe, face or heel. This immediately poses a problem. Part of what makes a face a good face is his ability to work in a team with another face. When Orton is in a tag match with a partner like Cena or Evan Bourne, it's not so much a partnership as it is a forced marriage. It seems like Orton would be happier if he was out there by himself, even if it means more work for him. While this work ethic is admirable, it's not something the casual fan will read into. They'd be much happier to see some sort of Attitude Adjustment/RKO combination. When Randy Orton gets in the ring for a tag match, he's out there for him and himself, where a true face is out there to win.

2) The whole thing don't make no sense

So when his two proteges finally rebelled against him after months of being abused both verbally and physically by Orton, the crowd cheers... Orton? Don't they usually cheer the proteges after these situations? For instance... Orton and Batista when they left Evolution?

Then when Sheamus takes out Triple H, Orton comes out and brags about the time he took out Triple H. He cuts promos talking about how he will kick people in the head, and still does that stupid thing where he stalks his prey in the ring, which brings me to my next point...

3) He wrestles like a heel

Orton's in ring psychology is that of a heel. He picks a limb, targets it, and works it for the majority of the match, a tactic normally used by heels. His signature stomp is clearly a heel stomp. Now I know all the Orton marks are going to be all "Stone Cold used a signature stomping move too!" However, their stomps are very different. Stone Cold would quickly stomp on his opponent's chest multiple times before stopping. Orton slowly and methodically steps on various parts of his opponent in a villainous matter. As for that whole stalking thing... sure, other wrestlers do similar things; Cena urges his opponent to get up, The Rock did his feet stomping thing... but mostly, stalking is used for heels. Perfect example is Edge, who sits in the corner and gets that psycho look on his face until his opponent gets up.

Finally...

Orton doesn't know how to be a face, and the WWE doesn't know how to make him one

Last week, Edge was supposed to have Evan Bourne on as a guest on The Cutting Edge, but before Mr. Bourne could make his scheduled appearance, he was interrupted by Chris Jericho. Jericho and Edge bickered for a while until Evan came out to attack both of them. Though he got the advantage, things were looking bad for Evan Bourne, as two of Canada's angriest and blondest superstars stared angrily at him, waiting to seek their revenge.

Then suddenly, the lights flashed on and off, and the e-mail notification noise rang across the arena's PA, and Cole made his way over to the podium. He then read that Evan Bourne would face Jericho and Edge in a tag team match, and his partner would be none other than... Randy Orton.

Evan Bourne's trademark smile beamed across his face. He lit up at the opportunity to wrestle alongside fellow St. Louis native Randy Orton. Randy Orton made his way down to the ring, and Evan looked ready to take over the world.

However, the match didn't pan out that way. Evan got beaten senseless by Edge and Jericho. It wasn't until he tagged Orton that the match turned towards the good guys' favor. However, these good fortunes couldn't last forever as Jericho got the upper hand on Orton. Now it was Orton who needed Bourne to finish of the match. This was a tall task for Evan, one that he may not have accomplished if not for a timely spear by Edge. Evan Bourne hit the shooting star and won his team the match.

This was a huge win for Evan, beating a team of two vicious superstars. Evan Bourne's wide grin glistened again as he celebrated his victory. Then, all of a sudden, Randy Orton RKO'd him.

What did Randy think would happen? The crowd would cheer Randy as he attacked the man who saved the match for him? That the crowd would pop as a complete and total babyface lay there lifeless on the mat?

The crowd seemed just as concussed as Evan. Some people cheered, other people booed but most people just sat in silence, confused by the events that unfolded in front of them. The face Randy Orton just did something incredibly heel like.

Now I know they have explained the logic behind this attack, but a real face wouldn't attack someone who just saved their match, or someone who is totally innocent.

Randy Orton's face turn is doomed to fail. How long do I give it? I believe he will turn heel again before or at the Royal Rumble.

 

[Razor]

You know why he's a face? The crowd fucking cheered him for everything he did.

Beating Triple H's family? Cheers.

Beating Cena? Cheers.

Stomping people? Cheers.

Everything ever? Cheers.

He couldn't be booed. No matter what he did, he was cheered. He was getting cheers for standing in the ring and looking angry. Not actually saying anything, just looking angry. How many people could do that? Batista at the top of his heel turn did that once, and he needed a few chair shots on a defenseless Cena to warm up an already white-hot crowd.

So what could the WWE do? They couldn't have a heel that was getting cheered after everything he did. They had to turn him face. This is a perfect example of the crowds turning the wrestler. Orton was blowing the roof off of arenas and getting Cena sized pops as a heel. Turn him into a rebellious face, and BAM. Triple the pop.

It's Orton's fault anyway. What do you think will happen when you spend an entire match going 1 move an hour and then suddenly end it with a crowd popping, out of nowhere move? It's crowd working 101. Slow it down, then speed it up. The crowd will cheer simply because they have something interesting to watch.

That's why the face turn doesn't really make sense. There was no real turn. He beat up his heel proteges, and while that would normally get the proteges the pop, the crowd only cared about Orton. It'd be like if Cena just suddenly laid into Eli Cottonwood. Considering no one gives a shit about Cottonwood, Cena would get the pops even if he were bleeding and gutting Cottonwood in the ring. Orton never really got a turn, he just started saying "I won't beat up the faces as much." And that's fine, because he didn't need a turn.

I'll go ahead and wager that your prophecy there is wrong. Orton will stay a face as long as he's getting cheers. That will be a very, very long time.

 

[JGlass]

You know why he's a face? The crowd fucking cheered him for everything he did.

This is true... but only after his turn at Wrestlemania.

Beating Triple H's family? Cheers.

Negative. He got booed during this time. I remember because I remember being annoyed that people cheered for McMahons.

Beating Cena? Cheers.

Due to smarky audiences. In the average audience

Everything ever? Cheers.

Everything ever since the face turn.

I'm not arguing that he doesn't get the pops, I'm just saying he should be a heel. He's much better suited for it, and eventually more people are going to realize his face turn makes no sense.

 

[KitInaka]

I have to agree with the above. Orton's not so much a true face as much as he's the WWE's version of an Anti-Hero. In the end what he goes might be seen as good. But all this time really all Orton's been doing is stuff that will benefit him at the end. Now you could argue that that is no always the case but still. Orton's agenda always seems to have himself at the front of it and anyone can get pulled along with it whether it's Cena or Evan. Still Liked the push for Evan during that match too.

 

[Steve Rogers]

I agree 100% and see where you are coming from, and also do not like this style of the "Anti-hero" face, but I think it is as simple as this. He is better off as a face who might get a very few boos for a sketchy tweener segment, then a heel who is still getting monster pops for anything he does to be a heel, from jay walking to punting babies. There running with what the crowd is giving them, and frankly it makes them look like there listening to the crowd based on his responses, which the majority of the IWC complains that the WWE wont do based on Cenas situation with his mixed reactions.

 

[XgringolocoX]

Orton started to get cheers beacuse he's just fucking great. They way it started just sounded like respect from the fans to me.
Oh, since when is picking a body part and concentrating on that a heel thing to do? Bret Hart used this method in the ring more times than not. Pre heel. It's done by wrestlers with a "technical" style. Benoit, Angle, Trips (cerebral), Hart, Perfect, etc...
Orton hasn't really done the full face thing either as pointed out above. He's just kinda read the crowd and pandered to it a bit.
Orton doesn't really work for me as a smilely, happy-go-lucky, kiss the baby, mircowave your puppies kinda face. He can be likable with an attitude problem.

 

[King Booka]

I thought Orton was a tweener. . .stone cold got away with stunnering faces just cos he can so why wont orton get away with hitting random people with an RKO.

I have fought young Randell in the coliseum once before. And I know he is a tweener true at heart. Neither face or heel, this gladiator is a tweener! A tweener I say! It has been said, so it shall be written by your lord and savior of the smackdown kingdom.........King.........Booka!

Sorry guys I just love King Booker's promos, but for real orton is a tweener, he can be face and do heel things and vice versa. As long as the tweener gets a huge pop when he does something there is an unwritten rule that will allow him to do what he wants with no ramifications.

 

[M-Eklipse]

See, this is the type of thing that gets on my nerves. Not the thread, but that these audiences don't know how to appreciate a wrestling character. Yeah I like C.M. Punk and Chris Jericho like a lot of other people, but when I'm in an arena and they come out, I will boo the crap out of them. Why? Because they are heels and that's there job, to get booed. Just because the girls think Randy is hot or the guys think he's cool, doesn't mean you have to cheer them. People don't understand that they don't do these things to get them to like you, it's pretty much the exact opposite.
Personally, I liked it when Orton was an evil, demented, son of a bitch. Now that he's a 'face' or tweener to be more precise he'll automatically tag with every babyface on the roster. It ruins the person that people liked in the first place, and replaces it with a watered down version of it. People need to understand that booing a heel is just as gratifying as cheers are to a face, it tells them that they are doing their job well. Unfortunately the casual fans will most likely never get this, and the marks...well, they're marks.

 

[mister_b1LL]

Hey, man, Vegeta's mission in life was to destroy the embodiment of good in Goku. He only cared for himself and defeated opponents not for the protection of Earth but for his own glory. But despite his motives, he is still one of the most popular characters in the DBZ Universe. I could tell you why. Vegeta's a badass. People love badasses and moreover people love badasses they can cheer for because they know under that tough exterior there is a more honorable side to them. The same thing rings true for Randy Orton.

Randy Orton has done a lot of things in his life that aren't face like. From his terrorizing of Triple H, Vince McMahon and his famiy, to the consistent beatdowns of Cena and other faces. But considering the things he's done since his face turn, we can tell that he has some good values. He knows that the Nexus is something he must defeat, whether for his own good or for the sake of the company. Moreover he just acts like a total badass in the ring, and seeing as how there are those people that still wait for the next Stone Cold Steve Austin, we can see a similar form of badassery in Orton, hence why we cheer for him.

 

[RiVaLGaMeR]

This thread is doomed to FAIL. Orton face turn is NOT doomed to fail, its just unlikely he will remain a face. There is no fail people cheer her more then they do Cena. He has character and mic skills, his gimmick fits him well, its certainly not stolen like Cenas.

 

[Rckstrtmmy]

Randy Orton is a face because he does what he wants, when he wants. Period. People love the badass role and Orton does it very very well. Yea he'll RKO anybody. Do you remember Austin? He used to give the stunner to anybody in the ring with him no matter if they were a face or a heel. Who said everybody had to be the prototypical face? If all faces behaved the same, shit would be boring fast. Idk why you're complaining about this, Orton is prolly the best character the WWE has going right now and he's getting more and more over. And with the Rhodes and DiBiase thing, it was 2 on 1 most of the time, thats why Orton was cheered genius. Also Rhodes and DiBiase kept inadvertently costing him matches if you remember so the crowd got that one right.

Also, Orton has stopped most of his heel tactics. The stomps are more played to the crowd than they were before. As for picking a body part and attacking it, everybody does this not just heels. Any technical wrestler focuses on one part of the body in most matches. Bret Hart comes to mind when I think about this because he was the best at this in his day. And with the stalking he just provides more build up for the RKO, no different than HBK tuning the band. Whens the last time he punted somebody? He'll talk about it but he'll only do that to a heel right now and people will go fucking nuts when he does.

I do feel that he will go heel again eventually. And this face run will only make for an awesome turn that people will actually care about. The more he gets cheered now, the more he'll get booed later. WWE knows this and they are doing a great job with this character as of now.

 

[gers09]

randy is just the modern day stone cold anti-hero simple as he just doing everything stone cold did

on his own: remember stone cold's Don't Trust Anyone

pick a spot and target it thats just good wrestling you telling me if you were in a fight and knew someone was hurt you wouldn't target that spot he the viper stone cold was the rattle snake

as for the fans cheering randy and not Ted or Cody that simple too the wwe universe don't think they two have done enough to be cheered they have not earned anything where randy has he been at the bottom of the ladder and worked his way up to the top and will still will make other people look good ie. his feud with Kofi (one the best for a long time)

 

[Ferbian]

It surprises me that nobody has pointed out yet that there's nowhere that Randy has been a reported face.

Randy Orton is a tweener. He gets a face reaction. He's around faces and gets to wrestle with them. But in the end of the day he puts them down. He wrestles heels for the most of it yes. That's a lack of WWE's side to admit that he's a tweener. Because he still puts down the faces as much as the heels.

Randy Orton is the kind of loose cannon that indeed does what is best for him. He, just like Batista - Walks alone. And that's the things that leans him to the classic heel / tweener alignment more than the face. Randy's characteristics are booked more like a tweener / heel than anything. But because of the opponents he faces as well as the fact that he's cheered. It makes him more of a tweener because of the mix.

I don't know how long this will last. But I would assume that it could last rather long. Considering he has still to get any heel reaction from the times he's tried to put guys like John Cena down. Evan Bourne down. He even put Wayne Brady down just to get to Edge.

The whole mix of that makes it an inevitable fact that Randy is more of a tweener than anything. The pops says otherwise. But the majority of his actions and way of acting would agree with me.

Randy is most likely gonna go on with this for quite a period of time. It does require the reaction of the fans to sooth down over him before we can even start imagining a heel turn. And by the sounds of the pops. That could take quite a while.

 

[NYJETMET]

I have a different take.......................

There is no need to make him heel, there is no need to make him face. Just let him be ORTON. Worked for Austin.

Why do we need to draw a line down the middle? Aren't we past the "good guys versus bad guys" ideology by now? It is 2010; not 1985.

 

[sladetwc]

I have a different take.......................

There is no need to make him heel, there is no need to make him face. Just let him be ORTON. Worked for Austin.

Why do we need to draw a line down the middle? Aren't we past the "good guys versus bad guys" ideology by now? It is 2010; not 1985.

Vince has told us that there must be a dividing line. In the age of the TVPG rating, you cannot have people doing whatever they want anymore. Kids need something to cheer for, and something to boo against. End of story.

As far as Orton's heel or face status, it seems to be irrelevant, as the smarks far outnumber the marks, and will cheer/boo whoever they feel like no matter what.

 

[Loveless]

All this has come along because of how badly the WWE fucked up Dibiase's face turn. Just before December when the fans were chanting for Dibiase to strike back and Orton was still a massive heel, but the WWE dragged it out far too long and never gave Dibiase that moment. By the time of the Elimination Chamber when he finally turned, everyone had become frustrated with waiting. The end result is you've now got your best heel getting cheered, your future poster boy stuck in the midcard with his father's gimmick and a years worth of build wasted. Monumental fuckup by the WWE

 

[JGlass]

It surprises me that nobody has pointed out yet that there's nowhere that Randy has been a reported face.

Yes Ferbian, but for all intents and purposes, he IS a face. Last week, when all the faces came out to help John Cena, he was with them, and not with the group of heels that came out afterwords.

In fact, the only face that he's put down in a non-match situation is Evan Bourne, and we all saw how well that went over.

The thing about Austin is that he wasn't really a tweener, he was an anti-hero. You'd be hard pressed to find an arena where not 99.9% of people were cheering for him. He was a tweener in the fact that he wasn't a traditional face, but at the end of the day, he was a face.

Now one could argue Orton is in the same boat as what I described above, but Orton WILL NEVER be as successful in playing his character as Stone Cold was. People could relate to Stone Cold. He beat up his boss, he drank beer, he talked like the average American. Randy Orton does not. Randy Orton cuts deals with the Nexus, he gives promos where he brags about himself, and he is very methodical. He doesn't capture the imagination like Stone Cold did.

Basically, I would argue the role of tweener doesn't exist in the WWE for more than a few weeks, when a face/heel turn is underway. Even CM Punk, a giant fan favorite, only had about 2 or 3 weeks of tweener reactions during his heel turn. That's why I am constantly baffled by Orton's face turn, as he does in no way manage to capture my interest.

 

[Ferbian]

Yes Ferbian, but for all intents and purposes, he IS a face. Last week, when all the faces came out to help John Cena, he was with them, and not with the group of heels that came out afterwords.

That's true. But would you have him come out with the people that he is practically in a feud with? Edge? That would've made much less sense. And we couldn't possibly have had Randy Orton not in there because we saw all the Money in the Bank participants (and more) giving the announcements for the matches later on.

Without Randy out there. It would've made much less sense.

In fact, the only face that he's put down in a non-match situation is Evan Bourne, and we all saw how well that went over.

Yet he attempted to do it to John Cena on numerous occasions. There's also Wayne Brady if you could count him as a face. The majority of guest-hosts are faces. So I would assume Wayne was as well.

The thing about Austin is that he wasn't really a tweener, he was an anti-hero. You'd be hard pressed to find an arena where not 99.9% of people were cheering for him. He was a tweener in the fact that he wasn't a traditional face, but at the end of the day, he was a face.

Austin was a tweener. Just like Kane and Undertaker are tweeners. And Triple H have also been compared to be a tweener because of the fact that he gets paired against faces on occasions (John Cena a few times in 2009).

Now one could argue Orton is in the same boat as what I described above, but Orton WILL NEVER be as successful in playing his character as Stone Cold was. People could relate to Stone Cold. He beat up his boss, he drank beer, he talked like the average American. Randy Orton does not. Randy Orton cuts deals with the Nexus, he gives promos where he brags about himself, and he is very methodical. He doesn't capture the imagination like Stone Cold did.

That's arguable. I would say that Randy is perfectlysuccessful in playing his character. He gets a reaction. He gets the job done. He puts on great matches where he plays the viper gimmick very well.

Randy might not be talking to the average American. But where does it say that Randy Orton is the exact copy of Stone Cold? Nowhere.

Basically, I would argue the role of tweener doesn't exist in the WWE for more than a few weeks, when a face/heel turn is underway. Even CM Punk, a giant fan favorite, only had about 2 or 3 weeks of tweener reactions during his heel turn. That's why I am constantly baffled by Orton's face turn, as he does in no way manage to capture my interest.

The role of a tweener exists perfectly fine. I've already listed a handful of people that were full-blown tweeners. Kane and Undertaker are prime examples of this already to this day.

 

[JGlass]

That's true. But would you have him come out with the people that he is practically in a feud with? Edge? That would've made much less sense. And we couldn't possibly have had Randy Orton not in there because we saw all the Money in the Bank participants (and more) giving the announcements for the matches later on.

Without Randy out there. It would've made much less sense.

If Randy Orton is going to be pushed as a face, then yes, he should be paired up with other faces. While paring someone with the person their feuding with isn't entirely unheard of (John Cena and Batista have done it, as have Angle and Triple H), it makes more sense to put him with the faces. However, as a tweener, he should be able to come out with either a face or a heel and get the same reaction, no?

Yet he attempted to do it to John Cena on numerous occasions. There's also Wayne Brady if you could count him as a face. The majority of guest-hosts are faces. So I would assume Wayne was as well.

John Cena gets more of a tweener reaction than Orton does, and while John Cena is more of the typical face than Orton, chances are Orton would be the one hearing the cheers if he hit the RKO on Cena. Also, guest hosts are a special case. While they generally play face roles, they're really there for comedy. And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't Wayne Brady starting to make fun of the WWE Universe or something when Orton RKO'd him?

Austin was a tweener. Just like Kane and Undertaker are tweeners. And Triple H have also been compared to be a tweener because of the fact that he gets paired against faces on occasions (John Cena a few times in 2009).

There have been plenty of face vs. face feuds throughout the modern era of wrestling where neither face played a heel role, or even a tweener role. The first Batista vs. John Cena is an example of that, as is the more recent Triple H vs. John Cena feud, and the first HBK vs. Undertaker feud. A less notable one is Christian vs. Tommy Dreamer.

That's arguable. I would say that Randy is perfectlysuccessful in playing his character. He gets a reaction. He gets the job done. He puts on great matches where he plays the viper gimmick very well.

I agree that Orton is successful at playing his character, but his character is not one that should get cheers, and I don't understand why he does get cheers. If you can explain to me what it is he does that warrants this reaction, then maybe I could come around on the concept of Orton staying face long term.

Randy might not be talking to the average American. But where does it say that Randy Orton is the exact copy of Stone Cold? Nowhere.

What I meant was that while nearly everything about Stone Cold was something the average guy could relate to, I can't of one thing in Orton's character that the average American can identify with. With a character so difficult to relate to, I don't see Orton's face reaction lasting very long.

The role of a tweener exists perfectly fine. I've already listed a handful of people that were full-blown tweeners. Kane and Undertaker are prime examples of this already to this day.

I will give it to you that Kane has been playing the role of a tweener, as I have no idea how to react to his crazy ass. Taker, on the other hand, is a face. The last time you could consider him as a tweener was during his second feud with Shawn Michaels, where both were involved in interfering with one another. Other than that, Taker will always get the bigger face reaction no matter who he is against.

I think the difference between you and I, Ferbian, is that you classify face/tweener/heel by their actions and their opponents, as I classify it by reaction from the audience. In a world full of shades of gray, I like my fiction to be more black and white. There's Spider-Man and the Green Goblin, Wesley and Prince Humperdink, Stone Cold Steve Austin and Mr. McMahon. When it comes to more high-brow entertainment, sure, I can dig some mysterious in-between characters, but for something like wrestling, I want good guys vs. bad guys, and what better way to judge who is who than by the way people react to them. Orton is so over right now, I can't, and won't, deny that. What I am trying to say is, eventually logic and reason will prevail and this face reaction for Orton will diminish.

 

[Rckstrtmmy]

The whole mix of that makes it an inevitable fact that Randy is more of a tweener than anything. The pops says otherwise. But the majority of his actions and way of acting would agree with me.

He is a face. He is a loner face. Just because he isn't all about helping everybody around him and he doesn't have any alliances doesn't mean he can't be a face. He wrestles heels and still comes out to help Cena and such. He gets huge cheering reactions from the crowd. So what if he RKO's people when theyre in the ring with him. That's HIS ring and he wants people to know that. Faces have been doing that stuff for years. I don't care if he's a published face or not but besides the RKO's he hasn't done heelish things for a while now. The punt was his big heel thing to do to the faces to put them out and he hasn't done that forever. Tweener isn't even anything, its something the IWC has made up and I'm sick of hearing about it. He's a face, everyone knows it. Deal with it.

 

[UFOcalling]

I don't know why everyone's getting so bent out of shape over Orton RKOing Bourne on Raw. Why the big hubbub about Orton this week? Wrestlezone's main page even featured this article:

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/reason-for-orton-attacking-bourne-on-raw-last-night-106319

Uh, duh...DUH!! I can't believe no one else saw this coming, and I can't believe some people actually needed it EXPLAINED to them. Even the article's author seemed confused, by adding "alrighty" to the end of it (or maybe he was just as flabbergasted as I was). How could you not see this coming from the very beginning of the match? Did you just start watching pro-wrestling?

This is something I've seen happen a MILLION times before over the years: a "face" tagging with their upcoming "face" PPV-opponent, and attacking them after the match (or during the match, or before, etc). Both men can remain "face"s, even after their bout on PPV. This formula works especially well if there's a "heel" (or "heels") involved in the upcoming PPV match (case in point: MITB). I've seen a face HHH do it, I've even seen Cena do it for fuck's sake.

Orton's RKO on Bourne was NOT a "heel" maneuver, it was simply a veteran "face" catching a rookie "face" with his guard down. In other words, or to put it more simply: this was a classic "only the Title (MITB Briefcase) matters" moment, NOT a classic "heel" moment.

 

[Ferbian]

If Randy Orton is going to be pushed as a face, then yes, he should be paired up with other faces. While paring someone with the person their feuding with isn't entirely unheard of (John Cena and Batista have done it, as have Angle and Triple H), it makes more sense to put him with the faces. However, as a tweener, he should be able to come out with either a face or a heel and get the same reaction, no?

And that's exactly the thing Randy is doing. He's gonna get a good reaction no matter who he punts or RKOs. It's been seen before he was turned tweener that when he feuded with John Cena people went apeshit over the RKO as well as when he was trading punches. People were cheering Randy (majority due to hatred towards Cena but cheering nonetheless).

John Cena gets more of a tweener reaction than Orton does, and while John Cena is more of the typical face than Orton, chances are Orton would be the one hearing the cheers if he hit the RKO on Cena. Also, guest hosts are a special case. While they generally play face roles, they're really there for comedy. And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't Wayne Brady starting to make fun of the WWE Universe or something when Orton RKO'd him?

John Cena is supposed to be a face. A tweener can get any reaction. A tweener can get heel reaction and a tweener can get face reaction and still be a tweener. The true definition of a tweener is the following:

a morally ambiguous wrestler, neither a bad guy or good guy (an inbetweener).[1] This term is also used to describe wrestlers who use tactics typically associated with heels (e.g., cheating), yet are still cheered by fans in spite of (or because of) these antics. The term is also used to describe wrestlers that remain popular, even though they are actually heels.

So if we're to believe this definition. Ric Flair was also a tweener. And that's why I add in the additional description of someone facing both heels and faces. Therefore I call Kane, Triple H and Undertaker tweeners more than faces or heels. The old description on Wikipedia had tweener examples that listed "Austin, Triple H, Kane and The Undertaker"

There have been plenty of face vs. face feuds throughout the modern era of wrestling where neither face played a heel role, or even a tweener role. The first Batista vs. John Cena is an example of that, as is the more recent Triple H vs. John Cena feud, and the first HBK vs. Undertaker feud. A less notable one is Christian vs. Tommy Dreamer.

Yes but one of them comes off as the heel. One of them is gonna be prioritized over the other. And again. Triple H was a tweener during some of the feuds. Triple H has been described as either a full-blown face. a full-blown heel or a tweener for the most of his career. The majority of times he's a face he leans a bit to the tweener as well due to the pairings and opponents he gets at times.

I agree that Orton is successful at playing his character, but his character is not one that should get cheers, and I don't understand why he does get cheers. If you can explain to me what it is he does that warrants this reaction, then maybe I could come around on the concept of Orton staying face long term.

That's arguable whether it should get cheers. It depends on how it's booked really. Randy did after all get booked to have a feud against the company family. The very family that under a decade ago were some of the most over heels. Vince McMahon being perhaps the biggest heel ever. As well as Stephanie being a great heel.

What I meant was that while nearly everything about Stone Cold was something the average guy could relate to, I can't of one thing in Orton's character that the average American can identify with. With a character so difficult to relate to, I don't see Orton's face reaction lasting very long.

That's true. But Stone Cold and Randy Orton is still two completely different gimmicks and the fact that Stone Cold pandered to the average worker shouldn't necessarily mean that Orton plays his character badly compared to Austin. Because Orton wasn't given a gimmick that panders.

I will give it to you that Kane has been playing the role of a tweener, as I have no idea how to react to his crazy ass. Taker, on the other hand, is a face. The last time you could consider him as a tweener was during his second feud with Shawn Michaels, where both were involved in interfering with one another. Other than that, Taker will always get the bigger face reaction no matter who he is against.

The Undertaker is a tweener. He gets face reaction. The quote I left earlier from Wikipedia explains that Undertaker can just fine be a tweener. He feuded with Shawn Michaels. He feuded with CM Punk. Rey Mysterio. Jeri-Show. He terrorized the Hart Dynasty as well as Cryme Tyme. Oh the list goes on. Tweener pairings because he attacks of any alignment.

A true tweener is booked against anybody. Anybody. Randy has been booked somewhat against any alignment in terms of taking out the guest hosts and Evan Bourne. As well as trying to take down John Cena. While still fighting the heels.

I think the difference between you and I, Ferbian, is that you classify face/tweener/heel by their actions and their opponents, as I classify it by reaction from the audience. In a world full of shades of gray, I like my fiction to be more black and white. There's Spider-Man and the Green Goblin, Wesley and Prince Humperdink, Stone Cold Steve Austin and Mr. McMahon. When it comes to more high-brow entertainment, sure, I can dig some mysterious in-between characters, but for something like wrestling, I want good guys vs. bad guys, and what better way to judge who is who than by the way people react to them. Orton is so over right now, I can't, and won't, deny that. What I am trying to say is, eventually logic and reason will prevail and this face reaction for Orton will diminish.

The reaction from the audience is now what makes a tweener. Because by that definition John Cena is a tweener. But he's not. By that definition Chris Jericho is a tweener. But he's not.

The definition I describe is the "text book" definition because it's the way it's been described what a tweener is.

But of course there's nowhere that I'm telling you "NOOO YOUR WRONG!" Because you're not. But I'm just saying by the "proper" definition. Randy Orton is a tweener.

 

[JJYanks121]

It's amazing how short people's memories are. Keep in mind we are about 4 months into Randy Orton being a full fledged face in terms of how he's booked. I'm deeming Wrestlemania the marker since going in, it appeared that he was somehow the face in that feud and he came out the clear face and has been booked as such since. If we want to make the inevitable comparison to Steve Austin, let's look at the first few months of his "face" turn:

Austin and Bret Hart achieve the double turn at Wrestlemania 13. Austin doesn't quit and Bret doesn't let up. They do the opposite on Raw shortly thereafter, and Austin ups it by actually injuring Hart (in storyline), then beating him up in the ambulance afterwords. These kind of antics defined Austin's feud with The Hart foundation which continued through that year. Even up through September (a couple of months from now in that year), Austin was acting quite heelish with no redeemable qualities, but being pushed as a huge face. Even at the start of the McMahon feud, Vince was not the hellbent heel that he is known as today. The feud actually has seeds that September, as Austin came out and assaulted Owen Hart, but was told not to act as such by Vince McMahon, who was still 2 months away from screwing Bret Hart. The beginnings of Austin's feud with McMahon had to do witih Austin being too much of a jerk to represent the company. It was only after time that McMahon became the asshole who was hellbent on keeping Austin away from being champion of HIS company. People seem to forget that, as they rewrite history to say that Austin was "fighting for the common man". In fact, he was not at all. He was just a dick that people cheered, so anyone who went against him was the bad guy somehow. If anything, Austin's ********-ness is what made the McMahon character become what it is, because had Austin not been such a prick, McMahon wouldn't have had to match him, dick move for dick move.

As for Orton, he is in a similar place. He turned face due to the cheers he was getting from the crowd while still acting like a heel. In the same way Austin was beating up people in stretchers and stunning whoever he felt like, so too can Orton do those things. It won't always make sense, but do wrestling fans ever make sense in what they want? What made Austin and Orton faces is that the fans liked their antics. Over time, the character subtly starts to have some redeeming qualities and changes slightly so that a difference can be deciphered. With Orton, the face version of the Viper character has sped up the walk to the ring, sped up a bit in the ring, brought back the Legend Killer pose, and used the word respect in promos (even though they aren't face promos, he has said he respects guys now). Over time, Austin started to do more things to subtly change his character as well.

Since I don't want to make this all about a comparison, I will say that the comparison served a purpose. The fans want what they want, and as long as they want to see Randy Orton RKOing people, they will pop for it like a Stunner or Rock Bottom. Thus, Randy's face run is going well and will continue to as long as fans want to see it. He will maintain the ability to act tweener-ish while getting mega-face pops and gradually start to act a little less heelish. In order to maintain his status though, he must maintain the character traits that made fans like him in the first place, so don't expect him to be Evan Bourne with tattoos or anything. He is a loner, who will do what he wants, go nuts, RKO people, and people will like it. If anything, it's destined to succeed more than fail because fans seem to flock to his antics more than any other wrestler at the moment. That should tell you all you need to know.

 

[The Gribbler]

Austin used to do this, as a face, walk in a stun EVERYONE in sight, he didn't distinguish face from heel because they were all 'Enemies'.

Orton is simply taking a leaf out of Austin's book.

Just My Opinion

 

[TheNightAngel]

This is just Randy Orton`s way of saying All that matters is the title and im the biggest badass around right now, and i can do what I want and get away with it. To me its more of a watered down version of Eddie Guerrero mixed with a little bit of Austin