There is no mystique left in Professional Wrestling

[CJ The Pirate]

Back in the latter part of 1997, the World Wrestling Federation had just had two of it's biggest storyline shockers ever. At Badd Blood, Kane debuted to cost the Undertaker the WWF Championship in the first ever Hell in a Cell match. Bret Hart was screwed out of the title one month later at the 1997 Survivor Series, known to millions now as the 'Montreal Screwjob.' De-Generation X was emerging and the stories of Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock had just begun to be written. This was the Attitude era, an era that featured bloody battles, hardcore rules and edgy storylines and characters. This era used comedy, horror, drama and action in order to bring new fans into the arenas and allow them to invite the WWF into their homes week in, week out. Smackdown was debuted, a revolutionary second two hour wrestling show. PPV's were monthly. Feuds were long and people entered a WWF show and all had the same mindset. "Anything can happen in the WWF"

The Attitude era brought us Hell in a Cell. The cage match was improved and made more 'hardcore' The ladder match was improved and then evolved to make Tables, Ladders and Chairs, or TLC if you prefer. Tables matches were introduced and occasionally set on fire before an unfortunate soul was driven through it. Flaming barbed wire bats were used. Thumbtacks were driven into peoples flesh, in their backs and arms and even their faces. Triple H, Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock more than once wore the crimson mask.

Feuds were amazing back then. We had so many amazing ones, it'd be impossible to pick just one out as the best. One that has to be mentioned as amazing was that of Stone Cold Steve Austin vs Vince McMahon.

Never before had anyone stood up against the boss. Noone had dared. Aside from that, noone had dared think that if they did do it, in their wildest dreams did they ever believe they would emerge from it victorious. Stone Cold Steve Austin did. It was Vince was the money man but he held his own. Just an office worker taking it to one of the greatest in the history of the sport. And how can anyone say they didn't revel in the fantasy of being able to hit their own boss or headmaster with the Stunner. I know I did. This feud went back and forth for many years. It had to end somewhere and end it did... for a little while at least.

That end came at St. Valentines Day Massacre. Austin Vs McMahon. A cage match. Nothing but pride on the line. The actual match was almost over before it began. Austin took it to McMahon on the outside before eventually putting him into the ring. It was war. Vince on Top. Austin on Top. Both bleeding badly. It was awesome.

Back in 1997, above all that happened with Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker, Kane, Triple H, The Rock, Bret Hart and anyone else... a young boy named Carl and his brother Dean began watching the show permanantly. We were hooked because of one small, valuable thing. The show was unpredictable. And we loved that.

Maybe it is because I was 10 years old in 1997. Maybe I just followed what my 6 year older brother was doing because I looked up to him. But I don't think so. It was the violence.

I was 10. Look at the other things I watched at the time. Hey Arnold. Rugrats. Sister Sister. Sabrina the Teenage Witch... all non-violent, family friendly fun. Inside me was a caged animal waiting to be let out. All men like violence. Even 10 year old men. One of the first scenes I saw in the WWF was Shawn Michaels face and hair dripping with blood. Sabrina the Teenage Witch was the girl my mum wanted me to marry. Shawn Michaels at that moment was the tough son of a bitch I wanted to be! Then Kane came out. How scary he was for a pre-teen to see. I loved it all. I loved being grossed out at Shawn's body being broken by being thrown off the cell. His face being rammed into the mesh. I loved the amazed feeling I got when the unstoppable Undertaker was bested by this Monster called Kane. That is why I have been a fan up to this day. Back then, a 10 year old kid fell in love with the WWF.

My name is Carl. I am now 22 years old. I have a stable job earning a good wage. I live with my fiancé Mel who I have been with for a fantastic 4 years in a great apartment in Manchester, UK. I have no criminal record, have never been in trouble with the police for any reason and have never had a fight, nor felt like having one. It is for those reasons I do not understand what the WWE is trying to achieve with the PG era.

Up until today, I have not had a problem with the PG era. It seemed a bit like molly coddling the young of today but it is hardly surprising in this overly PG world we now live in. I don't know if the story of 'Baa Baa Black Sheep' has crossed over to North America but here in the UK, the lyrics have now been changed to 'Baa Baa Nice Sheep' - Pathetic, the former version apparantly is racist. Many other things have been affected by this, I'm very sure you can come up with your own examples. So it comes as no surprise to me that Cena must change his hand gesture and Signature move name. In all honesty, I had no idea that Cena's Thumb and Pinky finger salute meant in some countries 'Fuck You' not until I read it on Wrestlezone about 8 months ago. I doubt a lot of people knew this, especially not impressionable youths but, again, I am hardly surprised by it.

Today I read that the creative staff at WWE HQ are a bit annoyed with the Hell in a Cell PPV concept, mostly due to them not being allowed to use any blood in the match. I am exhibit A that seeing blood and gratuitous violence together at any time does not make someone psychotic. I am very well rounded. I am very together. I am aware that the act of hurting someone severely is generally frowned upon in the eyes of the law. That's why I don't do it. I do not accept that people are influenced into doing these things by the WWE or by anything else that is deemed violent.

WWE is fake. Everyone knows this. My 7 year old nephew told me so the other day. Boxing of UFC isn't and I know many kids who watch that. So I ask why hasn't Boxing been cleaned up? Why aren't they wearing headgear like they do in amateur Boxing? Why aren't the gloves they wear equipped with thicker padding. Why are boxing matches still allowed to go 12 rounds? Surely 6 rounds would be enough. Hell, UFC is 3 in a non-title match. There is more justification in making those changes than there is in stopping blood in a choreographed, consented HIAC match. (For the record, I seriously hope these changes don't come into fruition.)

If I were a 10 year old today and the product I first watched is what we are getting now, I strongly feel like I wouldn't be as big a fan as I became 10 years ago. There is no mystique. Everything is very predictable. A decade ago, you never knew when the words Hell in a Cell were going to come out of Vince's mouth. Now we'll have 3 pointlessly at the next PPV. Same as TLC. Same as Submission matches. It seems now that the Elimination Chamber is going to take over the No Way Out PPV. Will that be 3 again? 18 superstars in 3 matches? There aren't enough guys in the company that can handle one elimination chamber match... let alone 3.

The words Hell in a Cell actually made us sit up, wide eyed and excited. Now, it's routine. We generally know when and where it will happen. Just like all the other special main events. It's just not special any more. How can any kid today get excited? Sure, maybe their first ever Hell in a Cell but when they are likely going to be 3 months apart by 2012 it's going to mean nothing at all. Especially when there is no blood. Does that mean no more atop the cell battles or 20ft drops alá Mankind. The entire concept of HIAC might as well end and just put them in a steel cage match. It'd be no more brutal.

I fear for the future. There is nothing left to intreague. There is no mystery. I was actually excited when I watched the last smackdown before Breaking Point, Teddy Long announced he would make an announcment that would change the face of Smackdown! Long then turned heel and went cost Taker the title. He was then kidnapped by Taker the following week before any announcement was made. It wasn't even mentioned. Yet another let down. What do kids talk about in the yard at school these days? I can't imagine any kid inviting his friends round to watch the PPV like I used to. I remember staying up til 4am for the first time with my first girlfriend and a bunch of our class mates watching Wrestlemania 17. It was a great night. The PPV, I can't actually remember ;-).

Am I on my own here or can any of you relate to what I'm saying? This isn't a typical 'The PG Era isn't a patch on the Attitude Era' thread. It really isn't. I still do watch and occasionally enjoy the product. But I am speaking as someone who has grown up watching it. I have a greater understanding of the sport today than I did in 1997. Back then, I loved watching the high flyers. I loved watching The larger than life characters and moves that looked amazing but not entirely believable. Today, I have a greater love for submission and mat based techniques. It's an art form. It's great to watch and can be just as exciting as a 30 foot elbow drop by Shane McMahon ever was. But Kids... they just don't get it. Kids in my family. Kids of my friends. They only like the guys who wear the bright colours. Parade around like idiots and fight in showboaty matches. Hell, if Santino did a Swanton Bomb, he'd my nephews hero! Most of the kids I know prefer it when Kofi Kingston comes out than they do Chris Jericho or Shawn Michaels. To see that is blasphemous to me. But look at it through their eyes. Bouncing off the ropes by his head and doing elaborate kung fu kicks is much better looking than the Codebreaker. How often does Chris do the Lionsault these days?

Only one thing could gain their interest more in my opinion and that is simply making John Cena and Randy Orton bleed at Hell in a Cell. If not, These kids will not watch it.

 

[army22guy]

Dude... You are not alone on this matter... I totally agree with u. The product of today has gone way too soft. The WWE makes everyone seem invincible, whenever they "perform" in a speciality match. No blood, no nothing... Although, i will say... I think Jeff Hardy had one of his best matches last month at SS... Long live Hardy!!! But i mean, come on, the HIAC was designed for one purpose, and that was to make people suffer, bleed, and shorten their careers by a few months... That kind of thing. If they do cut the blood out of this PPV, I may never watch again.

I'm like you... I grew up with wrestling, especially during the Attitude Era. I think the WWE is turning back on a good majority of their fans, by going PG. But only time will tell if the old man is making a smart move here

 

[JJYanks121]

You make a lot of interesting points and being only a couple of years older than you, we come from basically the same generation. The one major thing I am going to point out to you, and to anyone who wants to hear it, is that while the product has changed, so to have we. We are different people than the little kids who started watching the show many years ago. Also, the kids these days are a different generation and are not the same type of kids we were.

I do have to tell you that you and I are different. I became a fan as a little kid because I loved watching the Ultimate Warrior. I was always a bit different as I never really liked Hogan (though I had his cartoon tapes if any of you remember those!). As a 6 year old watching Wrestlemania 6, I was most definitely rooting for hte Warrior. Of course, as a 25 year old, I find Warrior the man (and that is his actual name now, how stupid), a pretty piss poor human and not someone I would look up to, but back then, he was fun to watch. As those types faded away, so did I, as Bret Hart's style and Yokozuna's fatness couldnt' keep me entertained. The only person I liked was Shawn Michaels, and he was a cog in bringing me back. I came back around the time of the original DX, and as a junior high student, you are still incredibly naive to the product. Keep in mind junior high students today can go on this site among others and get info before it happens, can see WWE stars in cameo roles on shows, they can see interviews with the wrestlers, among many other mediums. In 1997, there was very little appearance outside the WWE. If you hated a wrestler, you hated him because of his character, not because he "isn't putting people over" or "has a bad rep backstage". Our only understanding was what we saw on TV.

I want to preface that I enjoed the attitude era until the Invasion. For some reason, that whole thing killed it for me and drove me away for quite a while. The things I enjoyed about the attitude era were the storylines and the writing. That, and the Rock's promos which I used to imitate in the mirror. Yes, I admit it. And of course, as a 13 year old when the era started, I enjoyed the scantily clad women. Something I never enjoyed, and I'm going to have to agree to disagree here with a lot of people on these boards, is the blood and brutality of that era. A product of ECW, I felt like blood or tacks or barbed wire took away from the quality of a match. The people in them, to me, couldn't make you care about a match without it. Every now and again, if there is blood where it is believable that something happened to a guy that would make him bleed, that is fine and I believe today that should be allowed because you have to believe in the toughness of a match. However, meaningless blood, and barbaric use of weapons like the cheese grater, barbed wire, among other things is cheap entertainment and not something I have ever been into. Those things came from ECW and I guest sadists in Philly were into it, but not me. You show me a brutal match with those elements and say it's good, I'll show you a Rock/Austin or Rock/Triple H match of the era with straight wrestling, a lot of near falls, and perhaps a twist and turn thrown in, and I'll show you something WORTH watching.

Anyway, the attitude era was known for it's unpredictability, and remember, Raw had gone live for the first time during it and there was no internet spoilers so you had no idea going in what would happen. Today, even with a live Raw, you can get spoilers as to what will happen in matches or storylines and that takes away from the spontaneity you will see on TV. Add that to a different generation of kids and ourselves getting older and you have a much different type of audience to please. Things aren't the same as 1999 and they never will be again. Perhaps we could see a few more swerves, but to worry about the product because of blood is ludacris. If you want to see blood for no reason, watch a horror film. I stand by the statement that if it is logical to believe someone should bleed, they should, but if you are just inserting blood to give off imagery, it is a waste.

As for the mystique, thank the internet for having none. That and getting older. I can tell you that I can't hate Chris Jericho after meeting him at a Tampa Bay Lightning game. Now granted I also understand he's playing a character and don't just "hate heels" like I did as a kid. But he's a wonderful guy and in knowing that, it's hard to believe the things he says on tv anyway. Things change and people change, yet if you are on these forums, your love for pro wrestling hasn't. Just roll with the punches and try to enjoy it as its always been there for you.

 

[xJAYxJAYx]

I'm not one to always criticize the direction WWE is taking. As I am still a wrestling fan. I still tune into Raw every Monday. But I completely agree that there is no longer any mystery or excitement (for the most part) today in the WWE product. Now, I realize that the Attitude era is over. I've come to terms with it. And I understand why we wont see any blood, bra and panty matches, ect on Raw, ECW, and Smackdown. But why not give us the blood or bra and panty matches on PPV? Blood on occasion would really add to the product in todays PG era, at least in my opinion. It would really add to the Hell in a Cell matches coming up, beings how thats what the Hell in a Cell was designed for. It would give the product some more excitement!

I agree that have 3 Hell in a Cell matches, 3 TLC Matches, or 3 Elimination Chamber matches in one PPV is overkill. Also, I think having a PPV almost every 3 weeks is way too much as well.

 

[xJAYxJAYx]

Every now and again, if there is blood where it is believable that something happened to a guy that would make him bleed, that is fine and I believe today that should be allowed because you have to believe in the toughness of a match. However, meaningless blood, and barbaric use of weapons like the cheese grater, barbed wire, among other things is cheap entertainment and not something I have ever been into

I as well was never a fan of the extreme hardcore stuff. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed watching it every now and then, but I have always preferred technical wrestling over anything else.

Like I stated in my previous post just now, let there be blood on the PPVs where someone should bleed. For instance a spot in a Hell in a Cell match. It would add excitement to the match and make it much more believable.

As for the mystique, thank the internet for having none.

I also agree that the internet has a big role in why there is no mystique left in wrestling, but it still can't all be blamed on the internet. Raw is still live every monday. They could still add that mystique to Raw each week if they wanted. And it can be done, because I tune into TNA iMPACT! each week, just waiting to see what is going to happen next. And iMPACT! Is taped. The PG era is fine, we don't need the blood or naked women each and every week. But WWE just needs to find a way to make the product more exciting.

 

[Proof]

I really hate it when Undertaker fans complain about the PG Era. The irony here is amazing.

But I do agree that all of these big matches (HIAC, TLC) are losing value. HIAC used to be used once a year, now they are going to use it three times in one night.

 

[CJ The Pirate]

I hope I came across as I intended in my post. It isn't that I am, or ever was, bloodthirsty. I do not require blood to feature in every main event, or for that matter do I need to see weapons in any main event. I'm more than happy to watch a toe-to-toe battle with a lot of technical wrestling filling up the match. One of my favourite matches would have to be the Ultimate Submission match between Chris Jericho and Chris Benoit. Another would be the Benoit/Angle match at Royal Rumble 2003. I completely agree with what JJYanks said. Blood when it is relevant. Blood is never essential.

Maybe it's my 10 year old eyes I want you to look through but seeing this rare event. I felt blessed to get to see it. I felt it'd be something I'd tell my kids about when I was older. Like stories I heard from other, older fans about Snuka diving off the top of the cage or Hogan slamming Andre... moments in time that people remember forever. The Screwjob was one of them. Austin Stunning Vince was another. The first HIAC was just magical. Fast Forward 10 years and they've all been shoved down our throats to a point where nobody cares to listen. Back then. When I saw The Undertaker beating the shit out of Shawn, and Shawn battered and bloodied still fighting back, refusing to die. That is a sign of toughness. Now, we get Cena bound, beaten and battered by Randy Orton. Brutalised for the entire match only to get uncuffed and sell absolutely nothing. Sure. My 10 year old self might believe he is Superman, but I didn't think HBK was Superman back then... I didn't want a Superman. I just thought he was tough as hell. I admired and respected him, even though he was a heel. I didn't care.

I am not complaining about the entire PG Era. It's not that bad. It doesn't really matter to me if the term is FU or Attitude Adjustment. I don't care if Austin 3:16 can't say I just Whooped Your Ass anymore. I don't care that MVP has to mention at least once a month how bad it is to go to jail and how he regrets it but it made him stronger. I don't mind any of that. I wouldn't even be bothered that after watching the HIAC PPV and it finished without any of the Cell matches ending with a few bloody faces... I wouldn't have minded. But it's the fact that they have specific instructions not to do this. Hell in a Cell is the match where blood is relevant. All other matches can go without. This one pretty much (used to) guarantee it. Go through the HIAC history. More often than not, someone bleeds. The only one I can't recall blood on is Undertaker Vs Big Boss Man. It's one thing to expect it and not get it. It's a whole different thing to know not to expect it.

As for the 'irony' as regards to my signature. Do not pigeon hole me. I like a lot of wrestlers. Who I have in my signature means absolutely nothing. The Undertaker is the guy I first watched. He's the guy that brought the magic of Pro Wrestling into my life for the first time. He has done it since more often than not. But so has Stone Cold, The Rock, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guererro and many many more. There is no irony here. I really hate it when people misuse that word!

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Well, the fascination has ended for many fans, now that people know how the business works. However that doesn't mean that the product can no longer be interesting. I agree that it really isn't anymore, and people watch out of habit more than anything.

Yes, the Attitude Era is gone, but that doesn't mean that WWE can not offer a new product to cater to older teens and adults. A new product can be offered that has never been tried before, and it doesn't necessarily involve replicating the Attitude Era.

I have a uniquely different vision for what to make Monday Night Raw and how to cater the program to that particular audience. It would offer many things never seen before and have a completely different feel to it. The program would really be up the alley of those who like both wrestling as well as a good action/drama sitcom or action/drama films. Sure, it may have some profanity, violence, and tackle occasional questionable subjects, however it would be done in a way that would not be similar to the Attitude Era.

I have always maintained that wrestling should be presented more so as Entertainment as opposed to Sport. WWE argues that this is how it presents the product in this day and age, however I disagree with that analogy. What they say and what I see are completely different.

I have also maintained that the key in offering a good product is major emphasis on characters and personalities, along with good complex storylines.

My vision of the product essentially entails bringing the types of characters which you might see in a film or TV show, to the wrestling ring, and offering complex storylines to place them in. The key is just like any sitcom or movie ... to make these characters interesting enough that you want to follow them each week or want to see these characters in a movie sequel. It's about formulating a connection with the audience, something that is completely lacking in this day and age. That, and actually offering something different to the audience that they've never seen before.

I would be so excited to try something like that and write these shows with that vision in mind. One can only dream. Maybe I should write a script and send it to TNA (lol). Of course, this product isn't a thing like TNA, either so it wouldn't really fit for them in their current state, either.

 

[CMCoke42381]

Ah...What we call the good ol days. The last time I had any mystique as a wrestling fan was 1st getting into ROH back in 2005. I remember reading about Samoa Joe and CM Punk in PWI and i had chills in anticipation waiting to check it out, very reminiscent of the feeling I had 1st hearing of ECW back in like 1996 also by reading in PWI. As far as WWE and mainstream Wrestling go, well that died back in like 2003. Austin's return to WWE after "dropping the ball" I think MIGHT of been the last "mystique" moment I had as a fan. The last true great moment being the end of WM 20, but of course that's a bit tarnished now, sigh. After the passing of Eddie Guerrero and the Chris Benoit situation I have to admit part of me as a fan has died and has yet to be resurrected. I now more so then back then watch it for the sport, the in ring action and pure wrestling talents as opposed to the sports entertainment I used to enjoy, because frankly I havent been consistently entertained by Wrestling in a long time.

 

[SinCityBlitz]

The last true great moment being the end of WM 20, but of course that's a bit tarnished now, sigh. After the passing of Eddie Guerrero and the Chris Benoit situation I have to admit part of me as a fan has died and has yet to be resurrected. I now more so then back then watch it for the sport, the in ring action and pure wrestling talents as opposed to the sports entertainment I used to enjoy, because frankly I havent been consistently entertained by Wrestling in a long time.

Great fucking post.

This part right here, just about word for word is what I told someone the other day. The last great wrestling moment for me was that WrestleMania and those main events.

Losing Guerrero was the first big blow. When Benoit did what he did it killed just about all that I used to like about wrestling. Now I DVR the WWE shows to watch what I like which happens to be very little. I mean VERY little.

IMO the reason why wrestling lost it's mystique for me are as follows:

1- the internet spoiling everything. No surprises anymore.

2- the Death of WCW. The Monday Night Wars were the best thing to ever happen to wrestling(with the possible exception of Hogan making it big). When it died it took part of that mystique with it. I was never a huge WCW fan but I would watch the Cruisers. But that competition was just fantastic.

3- Eddie and Benoit. This was pretty much the last straw for me. Things were starting to go down for me as a fan anyway but when they both died(esp the way Benoit went out) it pretty much killed everything for me. The last wrestling PPV that I ordered was WMXX.

 

[JJohns]

Yeah, there's no Mystique left in Wrestling. But don't blame WWE for that. Blame guys like Dave Meltzer or Ross Foreman. Blame the dirt sheets and the IWC. That's what killed the mystique of wrestling. As far as the current WWE product is concerned, it was a natural evolution. As far as John Cena at the last PPV is concerned, turn to Wrestlemania 2, where Hogan came in with "broken ribs" and still ended up turning into Superman at the end of the match.

WWE has the sense to see where the market is going, and changes with the times. While I agree that having 3 Hell in a Cells, 3 Elimination Chambers, 3 Ladder Matches in the same night is crazy, that's what WWE feels is the best way to market a PPV. It's not like they are doing an entire PPV of Steel Cage Matches like TNA does with Lockdown.

 

[Monkey Popper]

I'm going to join the rest of you and agree that WWE has lost a lot of mojo. I mean I have been watching the company for 20 years. When WCW was around I would watch very little of it. I mean once a year maybe. Only because of the fact that WWE was awesome. You never knew what each Monday was going to bring you. There was always some sort of surprise each episode of Raw.

Now I mainly watch Raw still just because Smackdown seems so lame. Its hard to watch S.D. when you can pretty much predict every thing that is going to happen. S.D. has a pretty crappy roster. Granted that is seems where S.D. is like the B team, of course ECW is the C team and Raw is your main superstars. Why cant they take the old ideas they had in the past and improvise with them. I think they need to bring some hardcore matches and even the title, TLC, hell it wouldn't hurt to see an inferno match again. Where is the blood, where is the backstabbing with tag teams, where is the intense main event feuds. Damn you PG era...damn you.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

I won't bother doing a quote by quote thing, and will just address your post as I can recall it. The fact of the matter is, if blood and violence, thumbtacks and ladders are the only thing that "made" the Attitude Era for you, then you could just as well be watching CZW. The product can be just as good without any of the stuff that made the product so memorable 10 years ago.

The product can be just as brutal and just as violent. TLC matches still have ladders and people are still getting thrown off them. You're main question was however "How can a kid get excited?" Well, maybe because a "kid" is only 10 years old and doesn't have the knowledge that a 22 year old you would have. Maybe because he's a able to immerse himself wholly in the product, and doesn't know how the business works yet. He might know its fake, but he doesn't know anything about the business.

That's how he can believe in it. I don't much care for your old reminiscing of your wrestling watching days, not to be harsh. But your personal experience has nothing to do with how kids watch WWE today. I know for a fact teenagers still invite people around to watch PPV's. In term's of there being no intrigue and no mystique, I only believe this is the case if you come on the internet LOOKING for the results. Also, Teddy Longs announcement was Batista, just fyi.

I am pretty sure the WWE would be as awesome now as it was 10 years ago if I was 8 years old. CM Punk would be just as evil as HHH for putting Jeff Hardy's neck in a chair and hurting him. The mystique didn't leave pro wrestling. The mystique left us.

 

[TSG]

I think it is possible to still know about the inner workings of the business and get into it. I know all about the business and still enjoy watching high-flying cruiserweight action, technical masterpieces, and hardcore matches. And while I agree with CJ, I don't blame just the PG era, although it is partly at fault. I just blame WWE as a whole. They don't do anything exciting anymore. They don't come up with fresh entertaining characters anymore. They are stale. They're comedy characters are horrible, as I can assure you that Hornswoggle entertains no one over 13 years old. And I doubt Slam Master J even entertains people below the age of 13. I know they are catering to the younger audience, but they seem incapable of creating something that is entertaining to both the younger and older audience. My point being Hornswoggle. Santino is okay, as he is witty and can entertain both older and younger audiences. Most of the superstars in WWE today lack the ability to work longer, more exciting matches. And some of them don't even have charisma, for an example, Batista.Instead of getting great entertaining matches with characters such Stone Cold and Triple H, we get more boring, strung out matches with John Cena and Randy Orton. I'm not downing either, as they are both good and I even enjoy Orton's character. I also don't think they have enough big names to cycle through, so when they try to have new fueds we have already seen them. Older characters have been butchered, like Triple H and Shawn Michaels. Creative can't think up any new exciting storylines. The mid-card and tag titles are becoming meaningless. On the main subject of the thread, there is no real bloody, hardcore violence. I'm not saying I need it in every match, or that we need it too over excessivly, but there is essentially none. It seems that they think if they so any blood or hardcore violence on TV, kids are going to go insane and the world is going to end up with the next Columbine School Massacre. I'm not saying that violence and bloodshed is needed to make a match works, I just feel that it can every now and then, when used properly, can make a match better. These are many of the things wrong with WWE today.

Basically what I'm trying to say, is that CJ was write when he says that a 10 year-old may not be interested in the product today then they would if thyey saw it ten years ago. They probably are because they don't know of what happened ten-years ago, so they have no clue their has been better stuff before and even the most dull, basic, simple characters can capture their attention. Most of them probably are interested with the product today when they see it, but that's just because they haven't seen what was before. And if you think their isn't any more mystique in professional wrestling, that's only one problem with it. I am not blaming The PG Era of WWE as a whole, I am blaming everything that is wrong with it today, which is many things. There isn't much mistique anymore, I will admit, but then again, there isn't too much good with WWE anymore. But kids will be intrigued by the product, because it is all they know wrestling to be.

 

[Razor]

I move that the mystique is still there. I feel it every time I watch Raw, Smackdown, ECW. Why? I suspend my belief.

That's right. When I'm in front of the tv for those hours, I'm legitimately seeing the WWE Universe. Cena is the best of the best, with Orton doing anything he can to get his title back. Kofi is having his title stolen, and getting pissed about it. Legacy is trying to make a name for themselves by doing what Orton couldn't in Rated RKO, soundly get the upper hand with DX. Not just beat them, destroy them. Punk went evil in his feud with Hardy, and Taker is showing him that all must atone for their sins. There was a dude who looked oddly like R-Truth running around calling himself "Delicious," but I haven't seen him in a while. Chavo couldn't beat The Swoggle because The Swoggle is simply too fast for him.

See all that? That makes for some interesting programming. Sure, you'd call me a mark. I don't give a shit. After those hours of programming I can come on here and shit on Henry for a shit match, Trips for a shit promo, or praise the most recent Punk promo for the good that it was. But I can flip back and forth, I can immerse myself. If that makes me a blind mark, then fuck it. Why do I get my ID card?

Quite simply, the problem isn't with the programming. There is nothing different from the current programming and the Attitude Era, or the Hogan era. The only thing that has changed is your age, and the current knowledge of the business. Confront each era as a child, and you'll think it amazing. You'll think it engrossing. Hell, confront each era as a fan, and you'll be dumbstruck.

It's like going to a movie and stolidly sitting there, refusing to be entertained. You'd much rather sit there and critique the line delivery of Keanu Reeves than get sucked into a world where Morpheus is telling the saviour of Humanity he lives in a computer program. Don't sit at the tv and refuse to be entertained. Confront the WWE as you would 24, Lost, Spongebob, whatever the fuck else you watch. You'll be entertained.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The reason there is little intruige now for people over 15... is that they have realised what WWE actually is... what the phrase Sports Entertainment is...

IT IS A SOAP OPERA...

That is all WWE really is... a male oriented, sport based soap, no different than Eastenders or Coronation St. in the UK or Days of Our Lives in the US... WWE's "locations" are the backstage area, the ring and occasionally other places...its characters are "wrestlers" and as such most of their role is based on a more physical style of stunt work but wrestling in reality like a soap, it is easy to guess where stories are going go. The other major difference is that wrestling has a live crowd element to it... it is interactive...Most soaps tell the story of fictional peoples lives in a non interactive way, WWE doesn't... a viewer can be involved by going to an arena..but there are still only a finite number of variations, interactions and outcomes possible...

How many people die in a soap each year? at least one in each, how many weddings etc... for wrestling, there are going to be similar repeating patterns... people will win, lose turn face or heel, people will get screwed, people will get "fired"...

Soaps get "spoiled" in magazines and papers, just as wrestling does on the net... forums are dedicated to discussing characters, storylines, fan fiction...

Congrats... you watch the worlds best soap opera... and are proud to... just accept wrestling for what it is..

 

[OWEN-ing It All]

I'm sure a lot of you are long-time fans as I am. But I get the sense despite this my opinion is going to be in the minority on this subject.

Not about the mystique, not completely anyway. But about the product.

I've been watching wrestling since I was 3 years old, I've met wrestlers, gone to shows, got autographs, collected cards, magazines, blah blah blah.

A few years ago I stopped watching, I never thought I would, but I did. Why?

He was getting stale, this was around 2006. No more Lesnar, No More Angle, No More Jericho, then RVD left, It took Edge too long to be taken seriously, his mic skills used to be atrocious and I found him boring. Booker T? If he's a main eventer, then the Goon should've been the IC Champ. John Cena couldn't wrestle, 3 years later, nothing has changed there.

I was getting increasingly tired of the bad talent that was being crammed down my throat, the awful matches I was forced to watch. The lack of creativity in the storylines. The lack of a tag team division and it's depth.

Now I see far more creativity in the promos, the storylines are far more realistic and better performed. Mostly on Raw, but it flows better than it ever has, from start to finish.

I love the guest hosts as it creates better stories and angles. Rhodes, Dibiase, Orton, Ziggler, Morrison, Kingston, Bourne, they work their asses off and put on some of the most entertaining matches.

That was something that severly was lacking. Match quality.....a few years back more emphasis was being put on promos and not matches......which makes all the promos pointless.

What brought me back was, Miz N Morrison, Dibiase and Rhodes, DX, Orton, Edge becoming great, Kofi......and of course Jericho. He truly has saved the WWE, in my eyes. I started watching again in October of 07, just after he returned.

I mean the talent wasn't there, now they are......I see the past, present and future.

Then I saw the good, the, bad and the ugly.......

Now it's like Raw and SD are the majors and ECW is the AAA building up characters, which has greatly benefited the overall product. By showcasing talent, letting them harness their craft.

The only bad thing about WWE now is John Cena.

I can't support a hoax, a wind up toy if you will. WWE has done a great job of weening out the bad wrestlers since I stopped watching. They have made it so, mic skills are equally as important as wrestling skills. Where before you had too many who couldn't do one or the other or both.

Cena is one of the few who still is left that falls into this category. Edge is perhaps the only person who has had good in-ring chemistry with him. That's what made me respect Edge completely.

If WWE gets rid of Cena or at least puts him out of the main event they will be doing themselves a favor. Him and Kahli are entertaining, yes. But when it comes time to put up or shut up, and step to the main event at WM......they will fail, each and every time. They are not wrestlers, they are announcers with physiques. And it's not like Cena isn't capable (at least Kahli has an excuse), he's just lazy. Cena is so lazy he doesn't want to change the impression he gives off.

 

[FromTheSouth]

The loss of the mystique is a terrible argument. You veil your cry for a return of the Attitude era by begging for the return of the era that exposed the business? I don't know if that's ironic or hypocritical, but either way, you're wrong. I'll tell you why.

First of all, the amount of mystique you feel is completely up to you. I suspend disbelief. I pretend it's real. I get into it. I mark out. I enjoy the show, so I have fun while I watch it. The reason that you feel the mystique is gone is because the Attitude Era relied so heavily on four people, that you have forgotten how to enjoy it without them. Everyone clamors around how great all the divisions were during the Attitude Era. Umm, not really. The cruisers were terrible. Unwatchable at times. The midcard was only important when one of the three top guys (HHH, Austin, Rock) were involved with the IC belt. The rest of that time, it was Jericho, Angle, and Benoit, and no one else, and once those guys moved up to the top of the card, the midcard suffered until the arrival of Cena. The only thing that's worse now is tag team wrestling. The Attitude Era had some awesome tag team wrestling.

You also clamor for more blood and the Hardcore title. I challenge you to convince me that either of those things makes the show better. The Hardcore title was used to allow Rock, Austin, and HHH to set up for their skits. The blood was there, but how did it make anything better? It didn't.

People claim that the main event is slow now, but there are no less than twelve guys with the credibility to be a world champ right now. In the Attitude Era it was all about Austin, Rock, HHH, and when they weren't feuding with each other, they'd make some time for The Undertaker. The main event is so much more dynamic now.

The Attitude Era is gone. It's not coming back. And since you became a fan during this time, let me help you out a bit. The show right now resembles wrestling before Attitude. They can't cater to 15 year old kids, or 22 year old big kids, who post on internet boards. They need to build a younger fan base. If they build up the mystique of Cena, when they turn him, it will have the shock value. If they do it right, in five or six years, then they will start a whole new kind of Adult themed era, when *gasp* the current audience is ready for it. They can't just force the same convoluted bullshit down our throats. The end of Attitude was a mess. After 2002, too many people's influence and opinions were watering down the shows. I like the product the way it is now. I can't remember the last bad SD!, and I enjoy the guest hosts on Raw.