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The Sports Bar

As it stands right now, they're in a tie with the Hornets and Kings for 3rd-worst. Houston is sitting four of their big names tomorrow night against New Orleans, and with the Lakers clinching the Pacific, they may rest everyone against Sacramento tomorrow. If we can get sole possession of 3rd-worst and no one jumps us in the lottery, we have an awesome chance of having our pick of MKG/Beal/maybe Robinson also, which I would love.

And this may sound crazy, but if somehow we got the #1 pick again, I'd be tempted to trade it to the highest bidder (as long as we're getting a pick in the top 3-4).

It would have to be one hell of a return. The return of returns. The king of all returns. Davis is a special player.

I'm not sure I can think of a realistic scenario under which I'd be okay with it. Possibly an ensemble of New Orleans' best and their draft pick this year and probably the next. Or their second round pick this year.
 
I think the Browns want Weeden and I'm not sure whether they gamble and try to let him slide to the second round. Depends on who is available. They might go for Glenn if he slides to them at 22. I'm not sure how I'd feel if they drafted Weeden, but I think it's very likely. Some pressure for McCoy is a good thing, but is it worth a first round pick? I'd like to try to let him slide to the second, pick an OT or WR at 22, go for Weeden at 37. If it doesn't work out, whatever. But I think you can get him in the second.

I think the Browns should avoid a QB by all means this year and give McCoy a shot. If he can play through a full season, you'll have a better idea of what he can do and whether you can go forward with him as the starter. If he gets hurt again and misses time, well, you probably don't want him anyway.

If he sucks, you'll be in a prime position to get a guy like Barkley, Murray or Wilson next year. I can't see a lot of teams that would be worse than the Browns going QB in the first round next season, especially if Miami does get Tannehill.
 
I think the Browns should avoid a QB by all means this year and give McCoy a shot. If he can play through a full season, you'll have a better idea of what he can do and whether you can go forward with him as the starter. If he gets hurt again and misses time, well, you probably don't want him anyway.

If he sucks, you'll be in a prime position to get a guy like Barkley, Murray or Wilson next year. I can't see a lot of teams that would be worse than the Browns going QB in the first round next season, especially if Miami does get Tannehill.

I'm not ecstatic about it but I think it's what they want. I would personally just be stacking the rest of the offense. If it's at 22 I'll be fairly upset. If it's at 37 I can deal with it.
 
It would have to be one hell of a return. The return of returns. The king of all returns. Davis is a special player.

I'm not sure I can think of a realistic scenario under which I'd be okay with it. Possibly an ensemble of New Orleans' best and their draft pick this year and probably the next. Or their second round pick this year.

I agree that it'd take a special package to get it done. But when I see Davis, I see another Tristan Thompson -- amazing on the defensive side of the ball, but not so great on offense. I think it'd be 100 times easier to trade the rights to Davis and get a collection of good draft picks/decent role players in return than trade Thompson.

Maybe it's just me being strange, though.
 
I agree that it'd take a special package to get it done. But when I see Davis, I see another Tristan Thompson -- amazing on the defensive side of the ball, but not so great on offense. I think it'd be 100 times easier to trade the rights to Davis and get a collection of good draft picks/decent role players in return than trade Thompson.

Maybe it's just me being strange, though.

Davis is leagues better than TT, both in terms of readiness right now and potential. TT is raw talent that needs polish. Davis is ready to go and he can only get better. He's defense oriented, sure, but his offense can and will get much better.
 
LOVING the fact that I can miss the first 2 hours of the NFL draft tonight and not have to worry about missing the Detroit Lions selection.
 
Ryan Zimmerman has been placed on the DL. Not surprising, since he's hurt. What is surprising is who the Nats called up.

BRYCE HARPER. He will be in the every-day lineup, and will (as of now) bat 7th and play Left Field.
 
DeCastro, Adams, Spence, Ta'amu and Rainey. Good God, I love this draft for the Steelers. So many holes got filled this weekend with high-quality players. This year may not be as bad as I thought it'd be.

Also, :lmao: at LeBron for that ridiculous flop he just did on that Chandler screen. What a pansy.
 
I'm really getting tired of hearing about BABIP. Unless I'm misunderstanding it BABIP seems to be another pointless overrated stat. It's become just as annoying as WAR.
 
For pitchers or hitters (BABIP, that is)?

I guess either. From what I hear if a pitcher has a low BABIP his defense is credited for making a lot of plays behind him. What if most of those are just routine plays? Certain pitchers are looking to force a ground out or fly out instead of getting a strikeout. It seems the defense is getting more credit for catching a routine fly out rather than the pitcher for causing it.

As for batters why not just look at batting average instead of BABIP? An out is an out. If you ground out or strike out it's the same thing (unless you're trying to advance a runner). Maybe I'm not understanding this stat correctly.
 
I'm really getting tired of hearing about BABIP. Unless I'm misunderstanding it BABIP seems to be another pointless overrated stat. It's become just as annoying as WAR.
Batting Average on Balls In Play is one of these new things, and it warrants a bit of merit. It kinda shows how a pitcher pitches to defense.. I've never really heard batters using BABIP.

It's not like arbitrary like WAR (of which there is no real equation or easy way to describe who is better then who, it's just a number of which no one can explain how it is determined).
 
Batting Average on Balls In Play is one of these new things, and it warrants a bit of merit. It kinda shows how a pitcher pitches to defense.. I've never really heard batters using BABIP.

It's not like arbitrary like WAR (of which there is no real equation or easy way to describe who is better then who, it's just a number of which no one can explain how it is determined).

Showing how a pitcher pitches to defense makes sense. Some analysts makes it sound almost like BABIP is more of a stat to credit defense instead of pitching. Like if a pitcher has a good BABIP it means he has a great defense saving him instead of recognizing the pitcher wants the ball in play and is intending it to be a routine play for his defense.
 
I guess either. From what I hear if a pitcher has a low BABIP his defense is credited for making a lot of plays behind him. What if most of those are just routine plays? Certain pitchers are looking to force a ground out or fly out instead of getting a strikeout. It seems the defense is getting more credit for catching a routine fly out rather than the pitcher for causing it.

As for batters why not just look at batting average instead of BABIP? An out is an out. If you ground out or strike out it's the same thing (unless you're trying to advance a runner). Maybe I'm not understanding this stat correctly.

The first thing to note about BABIP is that it shows reasonably strong predictive capability - that is, without even understanding what it is, precisely, we can work from the fact that it generally (not always) has predictive value about whether a pitcher or hitter is due to regress. So, let's say a batter has an unusually high BABIP, like say .330 - .300 is average - and his career line isn't unusually deviant - because a player can influence his own BABIP to an extent. You probably see that high BABIP reflected in deviant average, OBP, slugging, etc., etc. So you could generally expect that those numbers will go down. They won't always, but usually they do.

So, then getting into the meat of BABIP, it basically comes down to three factors - defense, luck, and and changes in talent level. So, those three factors cause a player's BABIP to deviate from .300. Defense and luck are out of his hands. Are you hitting a hard liner to Miguel Cabrera or Evan Longoria? One of those guys is obviously more likely to come up with it. Or you just get unlucky. A guy makes a highlight reel play against you. But then talent level does play a role. Look at Matt Kemp, for example. He's always posted an incredibly deviant BABIP, about .350 for his career. He's not just constantly going up against shitty defense and getting super lucky. Over five seasons, that stuff evens itself out. What's happening for Kemp? Hard contact is usually the answer - the more solid contact a player makes on the ball, the better his BABIP. Kemp is also pretty fast, as it goes, which influences his BABIP as well. And through the first month of the season Kemp has flirted with a BABIP of .500. Is it all luck? All poor D? I'd imagine it's influencing it, but 11 home runs also indicate that he's making fine contact. So, on the batter's end, they're able to influence BABIP a lot, which is why most of the game's best hitters have deviant BABIPs.

On the pitching end, the same factors come into play. I'll use an example of a play I just saw - Aaron Cunningham made a beautiful, somewhat lucky catch in right just by reaching out his arm after losing the ball in the sun. By rights, that was probably a hit. Now, to answer your question about inducing grounders or flyballs - that's factored in. BABIP takes account of pitchers ensuring that their batters make poor contact. As a result, you see guys with high GB% post low BABIPs. The same goes for guys producing easy flies. BABIP is calculated a lot more subtly than it appears. Strikeouts, however, are given more weight, so high strikeout pitchers usually have the best BABIPs - Verlander posts a pretty deviant one every year, for example. I checked Nolan Ryan's and he has a .265 career BABIP, so you see how that works. I checked Derek Lowe's, he was the first groundball pitcher I thought of, and when he was in his better days he was about a .280 BABIP guy. So, the answer to defense getting more credit for the play than the pitcher isn't entirely true - BABIP rewards pitchers who pitch for weak contact. But, a pitcher that surrenders hard contact that is made up for by excellent defense or luck will see their BABIP rise.

As for why not look at average for a hitter - average sucks. It just really, really sucks. It tells you so little about a batter. But BABIP isn't the answer to evaluating the talent level of a batter - there's better answers to that. While BABIP can reflect something about a hitter's talent, it doesn't make it clear that it does. If you're interested in evaluating a player's talent level, wOBA and WRC+ are better evaluators of that. But I refuse to launch into a diatribe about those :p.

Batting Average on Balls In Play is one of these new things, and it warrants a bit of merit. It kinda shows how a pitcher pitches to defense.. I've never really heard batters using BABIP.

It's not like arbitrary like WAR (of which there is no real equation or easy way to describe who is better then who, it's just a number of which no one can explain how it is determined).

Wherever did you get this idea? There's a very simple formula for WAR. Fangraphs explains it here: Link

Take wRAA, UBR, and UZR - for hitting, baserunning, and defense - add them together, adjust by position (third base is harder than first, etc.), adjust to replacement level, because the above numbers are based on league average, and convert runs to wins - 10 runs = 1 win. Pitchers are done almost the same, except with FIP instead of the three above stats. That's a pretty skeletal explanation - if you want in depth rationale about where each of the individual numbers come from, why they're used, why ten runs equals a win, etc., etc., you can peruse the Fangraphs link, which contains in it a link to a very in depth explanation of each component of WAR.

The point is that it's the exact opposite of arbitrary - it's extremely well documented on how to get WAR, and justification is made for every step.

EDIT: I should note that my above skeletal explanation of WAR is for fWAR, not rWAR, which is calculated slightly differently.
 
Wherever did you get this idea? There's a very simple formula for WAR. Fangraphs explains it here: Link

Take wRAA, UBR, and UZR - for hitting, baserunning, and defense - add them together, adjust by position (third base is harder than first, etc.), adjust to replacement level, because the above numbers are based on league average, and convert runs to wins - 10 runs = 1 win. Pitchers are done almost the same, except with FIP instead of the three above stats. That's a pretty skeletal explanation - if you want in depth rationale about where each of the individual numbers come from, why they're used, why ten runs equals a win, etc., etc., you can peruse the Fangraphs link, which contains in it a link to a very in depth explanation of each component of WAR.

The point is that it's the exact opposite of arbitrary - it's extremely well documented on how to get WAR, and justification is made for every step.
Actually, the link kinda helps drive home my point.

Here's a number, the formula to reach this number is so complex it merits its own blog post.

And "positional adjustment" is entirely subjective. Why is one position harder? How harder is it? How is that determined? All I know is that one post linked to another which linked to another, yet none of them explained it.

Conversely, batting average is determined by dividing the number of at bats into the number of hits.

One sentence or a friggin encyclopedia? One sentence has worked for a century.
 
Actually, the link kinda helps drive home my point.

Here's a number, the formula to reach this number is so complex it merits its own blog post.

And "positional adjustment" is entirely subjective. Why is one position harder? How harder is it? How is that determined? All I know is that one post linked to another which linked to another, yet none of them explained it.

Conversely, batting average is determined by dividing the number of at bats into the number of hits.

One sentence or a friggin encyclopedia? One sentence has worked for a century.

You clearly didn't read the in depth explanation I pointed you toward. You can definitely find explanations of how to get wRAA, UZR, and UBR, but I'm not going to write out the formulas for three more stats. Positional adjustment is well recognized by the vast majority of baseball analysts, managers, players, and front offices. Bill James outlines it extensively in his work. The defensive spectrum is the quick and dirty way to look at it, and you can find it with a quick Google search. I don't have the exact order off the top of my head, but it goes something like short, center, third, second, left, right, first (pitching and catching are at the top if you want to incorporate them, but they don't get calculated with UZR). It's a lot harder to play short than it is to play right, and everyone knows it.

Average is a shit stat. All it tells you is that there was a hit. The very definition of a hit is subject to human error - an umpire can call a foul ball fair, or vice versa, or call an error a hit, or vice versa. It tells you nothing about the batter walking, which is an incredibly valuable thing, and it doesn't tell you if the hit was a single, a double, etc., etc. You could go to OPS to answer those questions, but we can do better. wOBA does better by more carefully refining the weights of what a batter can do.

One sentence doesn't work. One sentence gets you very little mileage. Sure, it can tell you some pretty broad stuff. A guy hitting .330 is doing pretty well. A guy hitting .200, not so much. But is a guy hitting .260 doing more than it seems? Is a guy hitting .285 doing less than it seems? We can answer those questions with wOBA - which is the basis for wRAA, by the way.

For a metaphor, let me put it this way. A fifth grader can add, right? It probably only takes a couple of sentences to explain how to add. But how far can you get with addition? Only so far. Calculus will take a lot longer to understand, but it gets you way more mileage. And trust me, no front office that expects to win is using batting average in anything other than the broadest of terms, or maybe as a contract incentive for a guy like Reyes.
 
For a simpleton like myself, I couldn't care less about BABIP, WAR, UZR, and all the other specific stats there are. I like the standard stats like ERA, WHIP, and BA.
 
For a simpleton like myself, I couldn't care less about BABIP, WAR, UZR, and all the other specific stats there are. I like the standard stats like ERA, WHIP, and BA.

Agree. My head is spinning reading the explanation. I think I'm reading an eye chart. Baseball has been around for 150 years and only recently have we heard of WAR and BABIP. I think people are just looking for something new to talk about.
 
I don't hold it against anyone if you want to stick with average and what have you, even though I do get a slight pounding my head anytime someone uses the term ERA. I'm just a numbers guy. It's what I do. People have told me I spend more time looking at spreadsheets than I do watching games.

A completely false accusation, by the way - it's at least a 50-50 split.
 
You clearly didn't read the in depth explanation I pointed you toward. You can definitely find explanations of how to get wRAA, UZR, and UBR, but I'm not going to write out the formulas for three more stats. Positional adjustment is well recognized by the vast majority of baseball analysts, managers, players, and front offices. Bill James outlines it extensively in his work. The defensive spectrum is the quick and dirty way to look at it, and you can find it with a quick Google search. I don't have the exact order off the top of my head, but it goes something like short, center, third, second, left, right, first (pitching and catching are at the top if you want to incorporate them, but they don't get calculated with UZR). It's a lot harder to play short than it is to play right, and everyone knows it.
Again, the link you provided gave no detail about the difference between positions. The link in the link didn't, the link in a link just linked a google search.

And still if it takes a novel to explain something, chances are it's too confusing and isn't really effective.
Average is a shit stat. All it tells you is that there was a hit. The very definition of a hit is subject to human error - an umpire can call a foul ball fair, or vice versa, or call an error a hit, or vice versa. It tells you nothing about the batter walking, which is an incredibly valuable thing, and it doesn't tell you if the hit was a single, a double, etc., etc. You could go to OPS to answer those questions, but we can do better. wOBA does better by more carefully refining the weights of what a batter can do.

One sentence doesn't work. One sentence gets you very little mileage. Sure, it can tell you some pretty broad stuff. A guy hitting .330 is doing pretty well. A guy hitting .200, not so much. But is a guy hitting .260 doing more than it seems? Is a guy hitting .285 doing less than it seems? We can answer those questions with wOBA - which is the basis for wRAA, by the way.
And all I care about is whether the batter is on first, second, third, home, or out. You can tell that a guy who is batting .260 with a .400 OBP is doing a better job of getting on base then a guy batting .280 with a .350 OBP. Same with slugging % and OPS. No need for all wOBA, wRAA, WAR, uZR, sdlkjhsdf, etc.


For a metaphor, let me put it this way. A fifth grader can add, right? It probably only takes a couple of sentences to explain how to add. But how far can you get with addition? Only so far. Calculus will take a lot longer to understand, but it gets you way more mileage. And trust me, no front office that expects to win is using batting average in anything other than the broadest of terms, or maybe as a contract incentive for a guy like Reyes.
Let me put it this way. When was the last time you needed calculus in the real world?


For a simpleton like myself, I couldn't care less about BABIP, WAR, UZR, and all the other specific stats there are. I like the standard stats like ERA, WHIP, and BA.
I'm with you, although I love some of the newer stuff like OPS, and even BABIP (when used to explain how a pitcher is pitching and how (un)lucky he is).

Agree. My head is spinning reading the explanation. I think I'm reading an eye chart. Baseball has been around for 150 years and only recently have we heard of WAR and BABIP. I think people are just looking for something new to talk about.
Exactly, they are looking at the game differently. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just different.

At the end of the day, the advanced metrics guys are wrong just as often as the old-school guys.
 
Again, the link you provided gave no detail about the difference between positions. The link in the link didn't, the link in a link just linked a google search.

I don't know, man, I navigated to it just fine. Fangraphs isn't that hard of a website to figure out, just go to their glossary and do some reading. You'll learn something.

And still if it takes a novel to explain something, chances are it's too confusing and isn't really effective.

Uh. No. Sometimes you have to read shit. The ignorance of the above statement is a little staggering, to be honest.

And all I care about is whether the batter is on first, second, third, home, or out. You can tell that a guy who is batting .260 with a .400 OBP is doing a better job of getting on base then a guy batting .280 with a .350 OBP. Same with slugging % and OPS. No need for all wOBA, wRAA, WAR, uZR, sdlkjhsdf, etc.

Of course you can. OBP is a fine stat. SLG is a little flawed because of the weights it gives. That's all that wOBA does - corrects the weights used in OPS for more accurate models.

And as I've reiterated time and time again - there's a reason front offices are using these numbers; more advanced numbers, of course, since they've all developed proprietary systems, but based on the same principles.

Let me put it this way. When was the last time you needed calculus in the real world?

Every engineer - that is, the people that keep society running - in the world uses calculus every day. Every drug dosage you ever got from a doctor was based on models developed from calculus. The power grid that keeps your electricity on needed differential equations to be developed. The systems that create every chemical produced in every plant in the world needed calculus to be developed. Calculus - and other advanced mathematical systems - is everywhere. The world is built on advanced math, in the same way that every front office in baseball is built on advanced analysis.

At the end of the day, the advanced metrics guys are wrong just as often as the old-school guys.

So every front office is baseball spends big money developing its analytical systems just to be wrong as much as they were before?

Uh huh.

Moneyball changed the game for a reason. I guarantee you if Billy Beane had used traditional logic to build his team, he would have been dwelling in the cellar instead of making a run in the playoffs.
 
I don't know, man, I navigated to it just fine. Fangraphs isn't that hard of a website to figure out, just go to their glossary and do some reading. You'll learn something.
I navigated it fine, it's just that nowhere did they mention how they come up with weighting each position.

Uh. No. Sometimes you have to read shit. The ignorance of the above statement is a little staggering, to be honest.
I agree you have to read shit sometimes, but I don't need to read a novel to find out Nick Swisher has a high OBP and hits for power.

Of course you can. OBP is a fine stat. SLG is a little flawed because of the weights it gives. That's all that wOBA does - corrects the weights used in OPS for more accurate models.
Explain how OPS is weighted in any way. It's not. A hit is a hit. doesn't matter if it's a line drive or a blooper, if it was just out of the reach of a defender or nowhere near him.

And as I've reiterated time and time again - there's a reason front offices are using these numbers; more advanced numbers, of course, since they've all developed proprietary systems, but based on the same principles.
And there's a reason they haven't gotten rid of the stuff that worked for a hundred plus years.

Every engineer - that is, the people that keep society running - in the world uses calculus every day. Every drug dosage you ever got from a doctor was based on models developed from calculus. The power grid that keeps your electricity on needed differential equations to be developed. The systems that create every chemical produced in every plant in the world needed calculus to be developed. Calculus - and other advanced mathematical systems - is everywhere. The world is built on advanced math, in the same way that every front office in baseball is built on advanced analysis.
I'm not an engineer, pharmacist, electrician, etc.

Just like I'm not a GM, assistant to the GM, etc. I'm a fan.

So every front office is baseball spends big money developing its analytical systems just to be wrong as much as they were before?

Uh huh.
yes. If they didn't, then every single roster move would work. They don't free agent signings fail, guys get cut then become stars, etc.

Moneyball changed the game for a reason. I guarantee you if Billy Beane had used traditional logic to build his team, he would have been dwelling in the cellar instead of making a run in the playoffs.being the Yankees bitch in October
I ever said it didn't change it. I never said it didn't change it for the better. I just said I don't give a shit about them. Why? Because I don't need to, because I'm not an MLB GM.

And his system worked, but it was hardly a huge success. What did he win? NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. He LOST. It took his ideas going to Boston where they actually had some star power for the system to be successful. People idolize his system because of a book. Bostons system (again, Moneyball + star players) actually had success.
 
For a simpleton like myself, I couldn't care less about BABIP, WAR, UZR, and all the other specific stats there are. I like the standard stats like ERA, WHIP, and BA.

This. Baseball seems to have some sort of new stat category ever fucking year, half of which I've never heard of or care about.
 
Okay, I'm done here. There's enough ignorance in your last reply to write a word fort, but I have better things to do with my life.

Like look at spreadsheets.
 

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