The singles match phenomenon: PPV VS TV

[AegonTargaryen]

I just glimpsed through a Raw episode from 2000- my single most favourite WWE year with fond memories of awe, wonder, and exhilaration as I was 11 and looked at guys like Kane, Undertaker and took them to be literal superhumans, and loved the wrestling of guys like Edge, Chris Jericho, and a newly arrived Kurt Angle , and segments such as Kurt Angle gifting the Undertaker a white Scooter which was thrown off the stage.

Now, this one particular Raw from June 2000 had two super young and not-that-established of stars in Chris Jericho and Edge go one-on-one probably for the KOTR qualifier but the match was amazing. And it got me thinking. How many times have Jericho and Edge feuded/wrestled in their long and illustrious careers spanning 12 full-time yrs and factors like being in separate brands for more than half of that period ? Vivid memories flashed before me, in the entire Raws from 2000 and 2001, they hardly wrestled many times owing to Edge's tag team stint, and then following Jericho's and HHH's feud culminating in HIAC at Judgement Day, they did have a short feud on Smackdown for a month, with a steel cage match too, following which Chris was on Raw , Edge on Smackdown. I've fond memories of 2004 with both Jericho and Edge on Raw and feuding for the IC title but I don't recall a very elaborate singles feud between the two, nor any ladder or cage matches between them for the IC title. Fast forward to 2009 which was the first time in 4 years that both were on the same show, and they tag-teamed together against face tag-teams like Jeff Hardy and Rey Mysterio, CM Punk and Jeff Hardy, or CM Punk and Rey Mysterio. Their 2010 feud is the most decorated and elaborate IMO and deserved a much better treatment/resolution than Jack Swagger cashing in immediately following WM.

Thus, there are two types of singles feuds,

Type A wherein the two opponents have never faced each other before in a singles contest despite having been on the same show/roster for years or on account of being on separate brands while their stardom rises. Batista and John Cena were in the WWE from 2002 and yet the first time they battled was at Summerslam 2008 . Batista and Taker did it at WM 23. Both Edge and Taker could've wrestled in a singles match from late 1997-2008 and yet WM 24 was the first time that they ever had a singles match. (How inconceivable is that! ?) Brock met HHH for the first time at Summerslam 2012. Shawn Michaels wrestled Kurt Angle in 2005.

Type B being feuds where two wrestlers randomly face each other on a TV show before they were very big stars and go on to become big stars and wrestle in the main-event of Summerslam or Wrestlemania. (Ex. Taker vs Austin, Rock vs Austin). In 1997, HHH and Rock, HHH and Austin, and Undertaker and Austin wrestled multiple times on Raw and these were not considered to be blockbuster matches. Steve Austin was an underdog who lost to a babyface and very popular Undertaker in 1997. Rock and HHH fought more times in 1998 on Raw than their ppv matches in 2000. And yet these wrestlers went on to have epic battles against each other on big ppvs like Summerslam, whether it be Rock vs HHH, HHH vs Mankind, Rock vs Mankind, or Austin vs HHH ,Austin vs Rock, or Austin vs The Undertaker. One can similarly find Kurt Angle wrestling Eddie Guerrero in a random match from Raw in 2000 and 4 years later they had a prolonged feud.

My questions to the readers are:-
Which sorts of singles feud do you enjoy more? Type A or Type B?

Why do you think it's so great to see a random Jericho vs Edge, or Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero match from Raw in 2000 and then watching their main-event feuds?

What do you think about WWE's "untapped potential singles feuds" which never happened? Example: Eddie Guerrero-Chris Jericho feud at a big level. Chris Jericho vs Kurt Angle.

Whom from the current roster do you think will have a storied/glorious singles one-on-one feud when you see them wrestle on a random Raw/SD match?

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

Which sorts of singles feud do you enjoy more? Type A or Type B?

Type A. Where the two opponents have never faced each other before in a singles contest despite having been on the same show/roster for years.

What do you think about WWE's "untapped potential singles feuds" which never happened?

One feud which never properly happened was Triple H vs. Edge. Despite being on the same roster for years, Edge and Triple H only wrestled each other two times in singles competition, once in 2005 when they were both on RAW and then at The Great American Bash 2008 when they were both part of Smackdown. They never really had a proper long feud. I would have loved to see a long Triple H/Edge feud around 2007-08.

Whom from the current roster do you think will have a storied/glorious singles one-on-one feud when you see them wrestle on a random Raw/SD match?

Hmm....Roman Reigns/Bray Wyatt.

 

[Agent Orange7]

Personally, I like the real dark feuds that involve a quality back story, or maybe partners breaking up. I'd like to see the following four guys have feuds with each other that ultimately ends up in a four-way ladder match for the championship: Daniel Bryan, CM Punk (if he were to come back), Dolph Ziggler, and Seth Rollins.

 

[NegativeFeedback]

Now, this one particular Raw from June 2000 had two super young and not-that-established of stars in Chris Jericho and Edge go one-on-one probably for the KOTR qualifier but the match was amazing. And it got me thinking. How many times have Jericho and Edge feuded/wrestled in their long and illustrious careers spanning 12 full-time yrs and factors like being in separate brands for more than half of that period ? Vivid memories flashed before me, in the entire Raws from 2000 and 2001, they hardly wrestled many times owing to Edge's tag team stint, and then following Jericho's and HHH's feud culminating in HIAC at Judgement Day, they did have a short feud on Smackdown for a month, with a steel cage match too, following which Chris was on Raw , Edge on Smackdown. I've fond memories of 2004 with both Jericho and Edge on Raw and feuding for the IC title but I don't recall a very elaborate singles feud between the two, nor any ladder or cage matches between them for the IC title. Fast forward to 2009 which was the first time in 4 years that both were on the same show, and they tag-teamed together against face tag-teams like Jeff Hardy and Rey Mysterio, CM Punk and Jeff Hardy, or CM Punk and Rey Mysterio. Their 2010 feud is the most decorated and elaborate IMO and deserved a much better treatment/resolution than Jack Swagger cashing in immediately following WM.

Chris Jericho and Edge have faced off plenty of times. Here are some that I can remember, but there are bound to be others. I don't think this is a good example for what you're trying to point out in this thread.

#1- Chris Jericho defeated Edge in the KOTR 2000 1st round (Raw, 6-19-2000)

#2- Edge defeated Chris Jericho in a Steel Cage match (Smackdown, 7-25-2002)

#3- Chris Jericho defeated Edge (Raw, 8-9-2004)

#4- Chris Jericho defeated Edge via DQ when Edge dropped him crotch-first on the ropes (Raw, 8-23-2004)

#5- Edge defeated Chris Jericho using the ropes for leverage (Raw, 1-3-2005)

#5- Edge defeated Chris Jericho after low-blowing him with a ladder (Raw, 3-7-2005)

#6- Edge defeated Chris Jericho in the "Gold Rush" tournament by smashing a briefcase over his head (Raw, 5-2-2005)

#7- Edge vs. Chris Jericho went to a No Contest after they used a chair (Smackdown, 5-15-2009)

#8- Chris Jericho defeated Edge to retain the World Heavyweight Championship (WrestleMania 26, 3-28-2010)

#9- Edge vs. Chris Jericho ended in a Double Countout in a #1 Contender's match (Smackdown, 4-9-2010)

#10- Edge defeated Chris Jericho in a Steel Cage match (Extreme Rules, 4-25-2010)

Thus, there are two types of singles feuds,

I'm pretty sure there are more "types".

Batista and John Cena were in the WWE from 2002 and yet the first time they battled was at Summerslam 2008.

This is the best example of the phenomenon you're pointing out. WWE purposely avoided this match-up for more than 6 years so they could book the huge match at SummerSlam. They would have obviously preferred to have it at Mania, but circumstances at the time forced them to do it a little earlier than planned. (Apparently Batista was bitching backstage about not being booked like a champion or w/e)

Batista and Taker did it at WM 23.

I guess you could include this example, but in my opinion, it shouldn't count. They were together in the company for ~4 years, with Taker regularly out of commission. They didn't spend as much time apart as you make it out to be. Plus, they had TONS of multi-man matches.

Both Edge and Taker could've wrestled in a singles match from late 1997-2008 and yet WM 24 was the first time that they ever had a singles match. (How inconceivable is that! ?)

That is just wrong. Here's a video of Undertaker vs. Edge from a June 29 Smackdown in 2000. Also, remember that Edge cashed in his briefcase on Undertaker in 2007. I'm pretty sure there are more examples. It would have been a huge feat to go 11 years without wrestling each other, but that just wasn't what happen here.

Brock met HHH for the first time at Summerslam 2012.

Okay yeah, but Brock only had a short stint with the company way back when. 90% of the current roster would have "first-time" matches with Brock if they met in the ring.

Shawn Michaels wrestled Kurt Angle in 2005.

Shawn and Kurt were simultaneously in the company for only 3 years. They didn't spend that much time apart.

Type B being feuds where two wrestlers randomly face each other on a TV show before they were very big stars and go on to become big stars and wrestle in the main-event of Summerslam or Wrestlemania. (Ex. Taker vs Austin, Rock vs Austin).

Undertaker and Austin were already big stars when they faced off three times on Raw in 1996/97. This was after Austin's huge King of the Ring win. All those matches ended in DQ and CO and led to their big match at Cold Day in Hell.

Rock vs. Austin first happened on PPV at D-Generation X: In Your House. Their first match on Raw was 4 months later in March 1998, leading up to WrestleMania.

In 1997, HHH and Rock, HHH and Austin, and Undertaker and Austin wrestled multiple times on Raw and these were not considered to be blockbuster matches.

Triple H and Austin's first match was on PPV as well. They wrestled for the first time at In Your House: Buried Alive.

Undertaker and Austin wrestled once on Raw in 1997, and it was the aforementioned Count Out screwy finish. Their first proper match was in Cold Day in Hell.

Triple H and The Rock had their first match on a special Tuesday Night episode of Raw in an IC title match, which was promoted as a big deal. They followed that up with a rematch 6 days later at In Your House 11. Their next match was also on a Tuesday Night special, where Rock took the IC title. They had 2 Champion vs. Champion matches on Raw before facing off again at Fully Loaded in a 2/3 falls match for the IC title. Their next match was a Ladder match at SummerSlam. And after that, it was a singles match at Survivor Series. Needless to say, they got consistent big-match PPV treatment.

Steve Austin was an underdog who lost to a babyface and very popular Undertaker in 1997. Rock and HHH fought more times in 1998 on Raw than their ppv matches in 2000. And yet these wrestlers went on to have epic battles against each other on big ppvs like Summerslam, whether it be Rock vs HHH, HHH vs Mankind, Rock vs Mankind, or Austin vs HHH ,Austin vs Rock, or Austin vs The Undertaker.

• Rock and Triple H's first match was on a Tuesday special, and then at IYH11.
• Triple H and Mankind's first match was at King of the Ring 1997.
• Rock and Mankind's first match was at Cold Day in Hell.
• Austin and Triple H's first match was at Buried Alive.
• Austin and Rock's first match was at D-X: In Your House.
• Austin and Undertaker wrestled 3 times to screwy finishes before their first match at Cold Day in Hell.

One can similarly find Kurt Angle wrestling Eddie Guerrero in a random match from Raw in 2000 and 4 years later they had a prolonged feud.

Here we can agree on one! This is actually the best example for your phenomenon. They had about 5 matches on free TV before their big time WrestleMania feud.

My questions to the readers are:-
Which sorts of singles feud do you enjoy more? Type A or Type B?

I think it's obvious we all like "first-time" feuds. But then again, rematch feuds are always good if written well, like Austin/Rock WM17, HBK/Angle SS, and Taker/HBK WM26.

Why do you think it's so great to see a random Jericho vs Edge, or Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero match from Raw in 2000 and then watching their main-event feuds?

Beats me. I don't really think it "great". Sure, I think it's cool, but it's not like it's unexpected. I remember the matches happening.

What do you think about WWE's "untapped potential singles feuds" which never happened? Example: Eddie Guerrero-Chris Jericho feud at a big level. Chris Jericho vs Kurt Angle.

Jericho and Angle had a pretty good feud for No Way Out 2000 over the IC title, which lead to a Mania match with Benoit. Sure, it wasn't at the world title level, but it was still pretty good. They also had an Undisputed title match on Raw in 2002.

Eddie and Jericho faced off for the European title at Insurrextion, but had plenty of other PPV matches in WCW. It definitely could've been a top main event feud, but as we all know, Eddie passed away not too long after joining the main event scene, so there were plenty of potential stories we never got to see.

Whom from the current roster do you think will have a storied/glorious singles one-on-one feud when you see them wrestle on a random Raw/SD match?

• John Cena vs. Dean Ambrose
• Daniel Bryan vs. Seth Rollins
• Triple H vs. Roman Reigns

 

[AegonTargaryen]

Chris Jericho and Edge have faced off plenty of times. Here are some that I can remember, but there are bound to be others. I don't think this is a good example for what you're trying to point out in this thread.

#1- Chris Jericho defeated Edge in the KOTR 2000 1st round (Raw, 6-19-2000)

#2- Edge defeated Chris Jericho in a Steel Cage match (Smackdown, 7-25-2002)

#3- Chris Jericho defeated Edge (Raw, 8-9-2004)

#4- Chris Jericho defeated Edge via DQ when Edge dropped him crotch-first on the ropes (Raw, 8-23-2004)

#5- Edge defeated Chris Jericho using the ropes for leverage (Raw, 1-3-2005)

#5- Edge defeated Chris Jericho after low-blowing him with a ladder (Raw, 3-7-2005)

#6- Edge defeated Chris Jericho in the "Gold Rush" tournament by smashing a briefcase over his head (Raw, 5-2-2005)

#7- Edge vs. Chris Jericho went to a No Contest after they used a chair (Smackdown, 5-15-2009)

#8- Chris Jericho defeated Edge to retain the World Heavyweight Championship (WrestleMania 26, 3-28-2010)

#9- Edge vs. Chris Jericho ended in a Double Countout in a #1 Contender's match (Smackdown, 4-9-2010)

#10- Edge defeated Chris Jericho in a Steel Cage match (Extreme Rules, 4-25-2010)

How am I wrong? What I asserted was "they haven't wrestled MANY times between 1999-2001 on Raw/SD owing to Edge's tag team career", and you yourself enlisted 2 matches, and the point I was making was that in 2000 they were two young stars who wrestled on Raw and the first time that they really "feuded" in the sense of having a ppv match was in 2002 and it wasn't even a traditional ppv but an Australia-only ppv known as "Global Warming" and I'm pretty sure it wasn't even a full-fledged feud due to factors such as the brand extension where within the same year you saw Chris Jericho on Smackdown for six months, then on Raw. Thus owing to these factors they did not have a feud, except that the steel cage match which took place on Smackdown.

And in 2004, the couple of IC title matches they had on Raw, the point I made was that they never really had a big ppv match (like how Christian and Jericho have had, Ex. Unforgiven 2004, ladder match for the IC), ladder match, or even a steel cage, it was a couple of matches on Raw, then Batista gets thrown in the mix for the triple threat at Summerslam. Once again, not a "big feud or rivalry".

The first time they really had a feud was thus in 2010 from Smackdown. Matches? Sure there have been a dozen matches between them from 1998-2010, not all of which should we endeavour to enlist here.

I'm pretty sure there are more "types".

Sure there can be half a dozen more "sub-types" or sub-genres if you will. What I meant was those two "types" with the distinction of two opponents either facing each other numerous times before ever feuding in the "main-event" or having a big ppv rivalry (Example, CM Punk and Chris Jericho wrestled several times on Raw/Smackdown between 2008-2010 but the first time they had a "big rivalry" was in 2012) AND between two wrestlers who've never faced each other before and go on directly to have a big ppv feud(Example- Undertaker-Batista, Kurt Angle-Shawn Michaels).

If you mean sub-types , they can be brother-vs-brother singles match feud(Example-Kane vs Taker, Jeff vs Matt), or Mentor-vs-Protege feud(HHH vs Randy Orton, Alex Riley vs The Miz), or former Tag-team partners feud(Michaels vs Jannety, Edge vs Christian, and so on).

That is just wrong. Here's a video of Undertaker vs. Edge from a June 29 Smackdown in 2000. Also, remember that Edge cashed in his briefcase on Undertaker in 2007. I'm pretty sure there are more examples. It would have been a huge feat to go 11 years without wrestling each other, but that just wasn't what happen here.

Well, I was watching the Edge DVD and glimpsed through Undertaker's entrance at WM 24 and heard Michael Cole saying this is the first time these two are facing or something. Now I know that the WWE commentators sometimes try to make the audience "overlook" if the two opponents have wrestled in some Obscure match on TV years ago, if only to make their contest seem that much more special. But, Taker vs Edge from SD in 2000 is really obscure, and the MITB cash in was not a "match" per se but a spear or two and pinfall to an already battered opponent.

Okay yeah, but Brock only had a short stint with the company way back when. 90% of the current roster would have "first-time" matches with Brock if they met in the ring. / Shawn and Kurt were simultaneously in the company for only 3 years. They didn't spend that much time apart.

Agreed with that, but the factor that prevented two opponents doesn't matter because at the end of the day, it does feel special to watch two main-event calibre superstars go at it, whether it's brand extension that prevented them, or in Brock's case, not having been with the WWE for 8 years, or two wrestlers being in a different wrestling company (WWE/WCW, WWE/TNA)(example- Sting vs Shawn Michaels/Undertaker would've been the greatest wrestlemania matches, and could've happened any time between 2002-2010 but we all know why it didn't happen). To add something ,Shawn Michaels vs Brock Lesnar in a series of matches (singles, Stretcher match, Ironman match) would've been awesome ! But we'll never see it.

Undertaker and Austin were already big stars when they faced off three times on Raw in 1996/97. This was after Austin's huge King of the Ring win. All those matches ended in DQ and CO and led to their big match at Cold Day in Hell.

Rock vs. Austin first happened on PPV at D-Generation X: In Your House. Their first match on Raw was 4 months later in March 1998, leading up to WrestleMania.

Triple H and Austin's first match was on PPV as well. They wrestled for the first time at In Your House: Buried Alive.

Undertaker and Austin wrestled once on Raw in 1997, and it was the aforementioned Count Out screwy finish. Their first proper match was in Cold Day in Hell.

Triple H and The Rock had their first match on a special Tuesday Night episode of Raw in an IC title match, which was promoted as a big deal. They followed that up with a rematch 6 days later at In Your House 11. Their next match was also on a Tuesday Night special, where Rock took the IC title. They had 2 Champion vs. Champion matches on Raw before facing off again at Fully Loaded in a 2/3 falls match for the IC title. Their next match was a Ladder match at SummerSlam. And after that, it was a singles match at Survivor Series. Needless to say, they got consistent big-match PPV treatment.
• Rock and Triple H's first match was on a Tuesday special, and then at IYH11.
• Triple H and Mankind's first match was at King of the Ring 1997.
• Rock and Mankind's first match was at Cold Day in Hell.
• Austin and Triple H's first match was at Buried Alive.
• Austin and Rock's first match was at D-X: In Your House.
• Austin and Undertaker wrestled 3 times to screwy finishes before their first match at Cold Day in Hell.

Thank you for all that great statistics! I don't actually mean to argue/deny about the matches that happened first on TV/PPV, but to claim that there is a distinction between "feuds" or "matches " between an already established star (Undertaker) and future star(HHH, Rock, Austin) in 1996/1997 and from when they are stars and Taker is a star OR when two wrestlers aren't main eventers and they have matches on TV/PPV- example Angle vs Jericho from No Way Out/KOTR in 2000, and then go on to have much bigger feuds/rivalries for the title/personal animosity, which unfortunately never did happen between Chris Jericho and Kurt angle , but happened with Guerrero and Angle in 2004. When I mentioned Rock, Austin, HHH as the "young stars" facing Taker between 1997-2000, or them facing each other, that distinction applies.
Surely you'll discern between a HHH and Austin match from 1998 where HHH is perceived as an up-and-comer or mid-carder and Austin as the WWF champion, and when they feuded between Survivor Series 2000-No Way Out 2000. (I apologize for the messiness and convolution).

Here we can agree on one! This is actually the best example for your phenomenon. They had about 5 matches on free TV before their big time WrestleMania feud.

Agreed.

I think it's obvious we all like "first-time" feuds. But then again, rematch feuds are always good if written well, like Austin/Rock WM17, HBK/Angle SS, and Taker/HBK WM26.

Yes!

Jericho and Angle had a pretty good feud for No Way Out 2000 over the IC title, which lead to a Mania match with Benoit. Sure, it wasn't at the world title level, but it was still pretty good. They also had an Undisputed title match on Raw in 2002.

I don't think it was a "good" feud, but the matches were absolutely brilliant although I'm damn sure Kurt Angle vs Chris Jericho matches would've never been as awesome as Kurt Angle-Chris Benoit, and Kurt Angle-Eddie Guerrero matches were. But at least they could've had a big rivalry when they were both stars in 2005 or 2006. I did enjoy their goofy segments, though, as I did every Kurt angle goofy segment from 2000-2002.

Eddie and Jericho faced off for the European title at Insurrextion, but had plenty of other PPV matches in WCW. It definitely could've been a top main event feud, but as we all know, Eddie passed away not too long after joining the main event scene, so there were plenty of potential stories we never got to see.

Yeah. One of the great feuds and even a classic Wrestlemania match between these two we'll never see, unfortunately.