The Pointless Thread

[klunderbunker]

Not exactly. To me it says they're so good at being evil that it's more natural. Some people are just perfect at being one or the other.

 

[klunderbunker]

so you contradict yourself, you just said that a great heel is a character that can never be a face, X- Pac could never be a face, he always got heel heat, thus, be your logic, X- pac should be one of the greatest heels of all time

When I said just no it was in sarcasm, as if to say X-pac should never be on the greatest list of any kind.

X-Pac got heat whether a face or a heel. People just got sick of the sight of him, no matter what he did.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Not exactly. To me it says they're so good at being evil that it's more natural. Some people are just perfect at being one or the other.

Eh, I just don't think you can praise an attribute, or a talent that someone might have by using a weakness of theirs.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[Bernkastel]

When I said just no it was in sarcasm, as if to say X-pac should never be on the greatest list of any kind.

X-Pac got heat whether a face or a heel. People just got sick of the sight of him, no matter what he did.

Well maybe X- Pac wasn't so much bad as he was great, maybe he worked the crowd into being sick of him and booing him relentlessly all the time. That takes talent.

 

[klunderbunker]

I'm not saying that the great heels or faces can't be the other, just that some just don't seem natural doing it.

 

[klunderbunker]

Well maybe X- Pac wasn't so much bad as he was great, maybe he worked the crowd into being sick of him and booing him relentlessly all the time. That takes talent.

But what about the times when he was supposed to be a face and was booed anyway?

 

[Eternal Dragon]

I'm not saying that the great heels or faces can't be the other, just that some just don't seem natural doing it.

Like I said, that just means they can't be a good face, not that they are the best heel.

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Dragon

 

[Bernkastel]

But what about the times when he was supposed to be a face and was booed anyway?

was he now? Or was he a face merely disguised as a heel, his mannerisms surely suggest this. A supposed face that acts like a dick, but still works a match like a face, the crowd is going to see right through it, and they did.

 

[klunderbunker]

Like I said, that just means they can't be a good face, not that they are the best heel.

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Dragon

That's not exactly what I'm saying. Look at Harley Race for example. Easily one of the greatest of all time, and one of the top probably 3 heels ever. He is just naturally someone taht people can hate. His look, his voice, his mannerisms etc. An attempt to make him a face would likely have been a disaster.

 

[klunderbunker]

was he now? Or was he a face merely disguised as a heel, his mannerisms surely suggest this. A supposed face that acts like a dick, but still works a match like a face, the crowd is going to see right through it, and they did.

I always chalked it up to the fact that Sean Waltman was awful no matter how much he was shoved down out throats, and that's what the fans saw through, and they wanted someone with more talent.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

That's not exactly what I'm saying. Look at Harley Race for example. Easily one of the greatest of all time, and one of the top probably 3 heels ever. He is just naturally someone taht people can hate. His look, his voice, his mannerisms etc. An attempt to make him a face would likely have been a disaster.

You're saying that he's a natural because he made people hate him. That's due to his talent/expertise. In the same way, if someone is a really good face it's because of their ability to make the crowd believe that. A wrestler who's always been a heel's ability to be a good face has less to do with how much they could make the crowd hate them and more to do with how good they are at convincing the crowd something different.

O.O What am I even talking about? Should stick to posting random pictures of divas...LOL.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[klunderbunker]

Dragon getting into wrestling theory. I like it!

I'm not saying that. I'm saying the vice versa. People hate him because he's a natural at being hated. I think taht after if a face/heel role is played well enough, then it's very difficult, not impossible mind you, but difficult to overcome.

 

[Bernkastel]

I always chalked it up to the fact that Sean Waltman was awful no matter how much he was shoved down out throats, and that's what the fans saw through, and they wanted someone with more talent.

I'm just following the logic that you stated, a heel can only be great if he can't be face, even though both Dibiasie and X- Pac recieved massive amounts of heel heat, Dibiasie was eventually able to turn face again, X- Pac was not, he was always booed, he always got heel heat. By definition of the logic you presented X - Pac is a better heel than Dibiasie because he was constantly booed and could never turn face, and Dibiasie despite being heavily booed at one point did turn face again. So this concept that your presenting that a heel cannot be great if he cannot turn face seems flawed.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Dragon getting into wrestling theory. I like it!

I'm not saying that. I'm saying the vice versa. People hate him because he's a natural at being hated. I think taht after if a face/heel role is played well enough, then it's very difficult, not impossible mind you, but difficult to overcome.

And if they overcome it, it speaks volume for their ability to work the crowd in a totally different way. It gives them versatility. Obviously if someone is a very good heel, that's just one of their talents, but if they don't get over as a good face, that doesn't and shouldn't give them the distinction of being the best heel out there, or one of the best. More than anything it shows their failure in that other field.

Stop making me use my brain.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[klunderbunker]

I'm just following the logic that you stated, a heel can only be great if he can't be face, even though both Dibiasie and X- Pac recieved massive amounts of heel heat, Dibiasie was eventually able to turn face again, X- Pac was not, he was always booed, he always got heel heat. By definition of the logic you presented X - Pac is a better heel than Dibiasie because he was constantly booed and could never turn face, and Dibiasie despite being heavily booed at one point did turn face again. So this concept that your presenting that a heel cannot be great if he cannot turn face seems flawed.

Whoa whoa whoa. I didn't say that. I said that the best of the best are that way. Great heels can turn into faces and vice versa all the tiem. Look at guys like Jericho or HHH. And when Dibiase was a face, he was retired from in ring competition, if my memory serves me right.

 

[klunderbunker]

And if they overcome it, it speaks volume for their ability to work the crowd in a totally different way. It gives them versatility. Obviously if someone is a very good heel, that's just one of their talents, but if they don't get over as a good face, that doesn't and shouldn't give them the distinction of being the best heel out there, or one of the best. More than anything it shows their failure in that other field.

Stop making me use my brain.

Flames Out
Dragon

I wouldn't call it a failure. I would say that it shows how great they were in the other role.

 

[Bernkastel]

Whoa whoa whoa. I didn't say that. I said that the best of the best are that way. Great heels can turn into faces and vice versa all the tiem. Look at guys like Jericho or HHH. And when Dibiase was a face, he was retired from in ring competition, if my memory serves me right.

yes you did

To me, a great heel is someone that simply can't be a face.

you going to refute your original thesis then? You may have to come up with another one to argue that Dibiase was a bigger heel than Hogan

 

[Eternal Dragon]

I wouldn't call it a failure. I would say that it shows how great they were in the other role.

Does it? If someone can write really incredible songs, does that make them a great singer? Not necessarily because the criteria for both are different and they are two different qualities.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[klunderbunker]

Point taken then. Allow me to clarify.

To me, a great heel is someone that I can never picture cheering for because I can't stand them so much at the moment. Hogan as a heel didn't work for me as well as Dibiase did because Dibiase was a lifetime heel wrestler and Hogan kept jumping back and forth.

 

[klunderbunker]

Does it? If someone can write really incredible songs, does that make them a great singer? Not necessarily because the criteria for both are different and they are two different qualities.

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Dragon

Of course not, because as you said they're different things. A better representation might be acting. Take an actor like say Tom Hanks. He is the epitome of a good guy. Imagine him being the antagonist in a film. There are very, very few instances in which I can see that working. That's not to say he's not a great actor, because he is.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Point taken then. Allow me to clarify.

To me, a great heel is someone that I can never picture cheering for because I can't stand them so much at the moment. Hogan as a heel didn't work for me as well as Dibiase did because Dibiase was a lifetime heel wrestler and Hogan kept jumping back and forth.

See, you said "at the moment"- key words! You hate them in the very moment they are a heel, so it is completely plausible that you couldn't ever imagine cheering for them. However, that's only reflecting how good that wrestler is at being a heel in that certain moment, or in the culmination of ALL of their moments as a heel. But if for some reason they turn around and do make people cheer for them, it doesn't lessen anything they did as a heel, it only enhances their work as a face.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Of course not, because as you said they're different things. A better representation might be acting. Take an actor like say Tom Hanks. He is the epitome of a good guy. Imagine him being the antagonist in a film. There are very, very few instances in which I can see that working. That's not to say he's not a great actor, because he is.

And I'm sure many people would say he's a better actor for being able to portray both. In the end if he was unable to play an antagonist, that would only work against him, not work for his excellent acting as a protagonist.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[klunderbunker]

See, you said "at the moment"- key words! You hate them in the very moment they are a heel, so it is completely plausible that you couldn't ever imagine cheering for them. However, that's only reflecting how good that wrestler is at being a heel in that certain moment, or in the culmination of ALL of their moments as a heel. But if for some reason they turn around and do make people cheer for them, it doesn't lessen anything they did as a heel, it only enhances their work as a face.

Flames Out
Dragon

Yes it is indeed possible, as anything is. And what you say is very true, as it is in the Tom Hanks point, and I agree with both, that it could be seen as a negative for both, but that to me at least, it would be seen as more of a positive.

 

[Bernkastel]

Point taken then. Allow me to clarify.

To me, a great heel is someone that I can never picture cheering for because I can't stand them so much at the moment. Hogan as a heel didn't work for me as well as Dibiase did because Dibiase was a lifetime heel wrestler and Hogan kept jumping back and forth.

so your saying that you couldn't have hated Hogan in the NWO, when he was hated so badly, that fans threw garbage at him, spat at him, swung at him if he got close to the barrier. WCW had to hire extra security to deter some of the fans from rushing the ring to get to Hogan, his heat was off the charts during that time period. And despite the massive amounts of heat that Dibiase got I never was him hated at the levels that Hogan was. There wasn't so much of a sense of urgency or angst towards Dibiase as there was Hogan. The betrayal of the fans by Hogan is not only what feuled the flames of hate but also that fear that some fans felt, the smaller fnas, of there former, idol.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Yes it is indeed possible, as anything is. And what you say is very true, as it is in the Tom Hanks point, and I agree with both, that it could be seen as a negative for both, but that to me at least, it would be seen as more of a positive.

Oh...so wouldn't that mean your opinion that Dibiase is the best heel is wrong?

Flames Out
Dragon