The Phantom Time Hypothesis

[Барбоса]

I only heard about this last night on an episode of QI but I immediately found it both fascinating and ludicrous.

It is a conspiracy theory of a German historian, Heribert Illig that is centred on the wish of 10th century Holy Roman Emperor, Otto III, to live and reign during the year 1000. In order to do, the hypothesis states that he ordered the re-dating or even the invention of the period 614-911 through the doctoring of the historical and archaeological record.

In a most drastic reading of this hypothesis, it states that those 297 years between 614-911 did not happen and that in fact we are currently living in the year 1716 rather than 2013. Illig bases much of his theory on the lack of archaeological and dendrochronological evidence from that period, the presence of Roman-themed architecture in 10th century western Europe and the relationship between the Julian and Gregorian calendar.

Of course, it is patently and provably rubbish but we have seen this on a smaller scale with the imposition of leap days and the updating of the calendar, complete with the addition of days, to keep in time with the seasons. We have become used to the idea that political leaders can suppress/promote their version of events but it is rather spectacular to think that a potentate might have the power to erase/create entire centuries of history and have them accepted as having happened to such an extent that people write books about them...

Maybe the last two years of my life have bene based on a lie...

 

[Dirk]

Watch how the moon-landing deniers in their tin-foil hats start making a case for this...

It's really fascinating stuff, Barbs.

 

[The Butcher]

Hold on a sec...

'kay... now run that back by me one more time, Bar-bro-sa.

 

[Барбоса]

'kay... now run that back by me one more time, Bar-bro-sa.

The Man invented history to make himself look more important.

Nothing new really. He is always oppressing our civil liberties and calendar.

 

[The Butcher]

The Man invented history to make himself look more important.

Nothing new really. He is always oppressing our civil liberties and calendar.

Word. I think, like, time is all in our imagination, y'know? History, the past, the future... it's really all this one singular thing that our brains separate and organize just to, you know, give us order. The Man may manipulate our perception of history, but he didn't invent that shit. Kings and emperors and whatever-- they can tear down the buildings, destroy artifacts, and flip the days on the calendar, but that doesn't mean the shit they destroyed didn't happen. Just means, like... It's like everything ever is just one big book, right? So these dicks tear out a few pages so that by the time we get a chance to read it, the story's kinda out of whack, get me bro? Eventually some asshole despot is gonna drop the bomb and fuck up our chapter. Then people after us are gonna have an even more fucked up story to read and try to, like, piece it together. Then at the end of the book, the Sun is gonna swell up and engulf the Earth. And there will be new books written across the universe, because the future people will fly into space and start all over, and the Earth book will be, like, the Earth myth.







I have got to stop smokin' this shit.

 

[Барбоса]

I would really like to hear some of Illig's in-depth explanations for things that are recorded to have happened between 614 and 911.

• how the Muslims unified Arabia and then conquered everything from Spain through North Africa, the Middle East, Iraq, Iran, central Turkey, the Caucasus, Afghanistan, Central Asia and northern India in a single year
• did the Viking raids/conquests not take place?
• if they didn't, where did that massive Russian principality come from?
• how did the Frankish empire collapse overnight?
• where did the Persian/Visigoths/Avars disappear to?

Actually, following this Phantom Time Hypothesis could present a rather spectacular work of counter-factual history in trying to explain how the world of 911 is actually that of 615.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I'm buying this since it makes me feel 274 years younger. Also in about 230 years I can start making some shockingly lucrative Super Bowl bets. Eat shit Illig and Biff Tannen.

 

[klunderbunker]

In the words of that great thinker Norm Peterson:

Is this going to raise the price of beer (or Coke in my case)?

"No?"

Then what do we care?

Not meant as an insult to Barbosa, but conspiracy theories like this tend to get the same response from me: what difference does this make? About 6 billion people have never heard of this theory and about 6.49 billion likely don't care at all. Suppose we are living 300ish years earlier. Does that change anything about our lives?

Also, wouldn't calendars from other areas of the world that had never heard of this emperor refute this? As in they have the missing 300 years? Hasn't China been around for thousands of years? Wouldn't they have records that could refute this/

 

[Барбоса]

Not meant as an insult to Barbosa, but conspiracy theories like this tend to get the same response from me: what difference does this make? About 6 billion people have never heard of this theory and about 6.49 billion likely don't care at all. Suppose we are living 300ish years earlier. Does that change anything about our lives?

It would certainly change things about my life, namely the book I have just published becomes a fictional work rather than non-fiction.

And as I suggested above, it would leave a lot of unanswered questions about those 300 years. Maybe not important to the everyday Joe Bloggs but important to the idea of where you and I came from as it essentially removes the Viking age from existence, an age that was vital in the forging of England.

As an historian, it provides me with a very interesting "What If?" scenario.

Also, wouldn't calendars from other areas of the world that had never heard of this emperor refute this? As in they have the missing 300 years? Hasn't China been around for thousands of years? Wouldn't they have records that could refute this/

Exactly, although a conspiracy theorist would ask when were those other calendars correlated with the western one. If it was after Otto's rewrites/inventions then it would not matter.

A really crazy conspiracy theorist would say that the Powers That Be were all in on it together.

 

[klunderbunker]

It would certainly change things about my life, namely the book I have just published becomes a fictional work rather than non-fiction.

And as I suggested above, it would leave a lot of unanswered questions about those 300 years. Maybe not important to the everyday Joe Bloggs but important to the idea of where you and I came from as it essentially removes the Viking age from existence, an age that was vital in the forging of England.

As an historian, it provides me with a very interesting "What If?" scenario.



Exactly, although a conspiracy theorist would ask when were those other calendars correlated with the western one. If it was after Otto's rewrites/inventions then it would not matter.

A really crazy conspiracy theorist would say that the Powers That Be were all in on it together.

To which I would ask the conspiracy theorist what he plans to do about it, because if the New World Order (also known as the Powers That Be, which makes me chuckle as a wrestling fan) is behind it all, then whatever you tell people won't matter because those people control the media and whatever ability you have to spread the "truth". Believing you were some kind of beacon of hope like that led to Room 101 in 1984.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I would really like to hear some of Illig's in-depth explanations for things that are recorded to have happened between 614 and 911.

• how the Muslims unified Arabia and then conquered everything from Spain through North Africa, the Middle East, Iraq, Iran, central Turkey, the Caucasus, Afghanistan, Central Asia and northern India in a single year
• did the Viking raids/conquests not take place?
• if they didn't, where did that massive Russian principality come from?
• how did the Frankish empire collapse overnight?
• where did the Persian/Visigoths/Avars disappear to?

Actually, following this Phantom Time Hypothesis could present a rather spectacular work of counter-factual history in trying to explain how the world of 911 is actually that of 615.

You know, time travel and email.

But yes, this is impossible. Somehow you have to fabricate or rearrange all the major events that took place in that period. You know, like the Viking raids took place years later but were written into this time period to support Otto III's sham.

And of course, archaeological evidence is available for all these events. So how can this historian claim otherwise?

 

[Барбоса]

To which I would ask the conspiracy theorist what he plans to do about it, because if the New World Order (also known as the Powers That Be, which makes me chuckle as a wrestling fan) is behind it all, then whatever you tell people won't matter because those people control the media and whatever ability you have to spread the "truth". Believing you were some kind of beacon of hope like that led to Room 101 in 1984.

Personally, I do not see Illig's hypothesis as a conspiracy theory out to change the world in the same way that there are Holocaust and moon-landing denies or "inside job" 9-11ers.

I see it more in the same vein of a way out there quantum mechanical theory like say Feynman's Single Electron Universe theory - taking advantage of a scenario/situation that we do not fully understand and presenting a potential explanation, even if it is completely out of left field.

Of course, the problem with Illig's hypothesis is that it is patently disprovable. However, because it is so silly that it can actually help engage other historians in the subject area - part of me thinks that this is exactly what Illig was doing. The period 600-900 is one of the most under-studied periods, perhaps solely because of the lack of good primary sources but is at the same time one of the most important periods in history - collapse of Persia, cowing of Rome, rise of Islam, Viking raids, the forging of many of the modern states of Europe (England, France, Germany, Russia, Norway, Sweden, Denmark).

And even this forum shows, if you say something even remotely sensationalist, people will come out of the woodwork to disprove you but at the same time become engaged in the subject matter.

You know, time travel and email.

But yes, this is impossible. Somehow you have to fabricate or rearrange all the major events that took place in that period. You know, like the Viking raids took place years later but were written into this time period to support Otto III's sham.

And of course, archaeological evidence is available for all these events. So how can this historian claim otherwise?

Illig's conjecture would seem to be that the historical and archaeological record is so poor (it is) that it could be explainable by a poor attempt at faking it.

Having spent much of the last year or two reading the primary sources for the seventh century and not being able to find a good reason for the written record to be so poor given that we have so many different cultures writing all at the same time, there is definitely room for a hypothesis.

Now, it is a massive and entirely ludicrous jump to say that the record is so poor because it never happened, but there is that gap in knowledge there.

 

[Coco]

In the words of that great thinker Norm Peterson:

Is this going to raise the price of beer (or Coke in my case)?

"No?"

Then what do we care?

"Won't change how mustard tastes."

Barbosa, which episode of QI is this? I'm looking for something (quite) interesting to watch while I eat lunch.

 

[Барбоса]

Barbosa, which episode of QI is this? I'm looking for something (quite) interesting to watch while I eat lunch.

It was in the XL version of Episode 3 of the "J" Series.

Although, the Phantom Time Hypothesis is only briefly mentioned as a dubious theory.

 

[Whap Me Jungles]

It was in the XL version of Episode 3 of the "J" Series.

Although, the Phantom Time Hypothesis is only briefly mentioned as a dubious theory.

J series?
Wouldn't that make it a Jubious Theory?

 

[Mighty NorCal]

It would certainly change things about my life, namely the book I have just published becomes a fictional work rather than non-fiction.

And as I suggested above, it would leave a lot of unanswered questions about those 300 years.

A LOT. and deciding that years did / did not exist is just the kind of vain, power-crazy thing one of those types from those days would do

 

[Dirk]

If Illig was right, the Mayans still may be.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

If Illig was right, the Mayans still may be.

.......................




Mind. Blown.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

If Illig was right, the Mayans still may be.

I'll be dead by then, no biggie.

I'm not much into history so it doesn't mean much to me if this actually happened. It's certainly plausible though.

 

[Барбоса]

It most certainly is not plausible

 

[Poop Master Flex]

It most certainly is not plausible

I could see someone from that time frame doing something like that.

 

[Барбоса]

Days perhaps. Maybe even a month or two but 297 years without the connivance of the entire western world who all used the same calendar set down by the church? No chance.

 

[klunderbunker]

As a pure novice in this field, it would seem that the influx of all the Islamic/Middle Eastern culture to Europe during the Renaissance would have shown the discrepancies between the two calendars. I'm not sure when Islam really got rolling, but wasn't it around before this whole thing would have happened? Meaning they would have records that show it's incorrect?

 

[Барбоса]

The whole Islam calendar issue is perhaps why Illig chose 614 as his starting point as that includes historical sections of the Qur'an. Then again there are discrepancies in the calendar anyway given that the Islamic calendar is still based on the lunar month.

I would also say that had such a phantom time period managed to get to the Renaissance, 400+ years after Otto III, then it would have been ingrained in history. Also, to correlate the calendars you would need two events that occur in both, which there weren't many of.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Did technology proceed incredibly slowly during this time period or what?