The nWo Succeeded Because of the WWF

Tenta

The Shark Should've Worked in WCW
'Tis True.

Now then, let's establish the context of the matter first. When I say succeed, I mean among the mainstream media. Read; I mean among those who had absolutely no clue regarding the situation. Sure, the IWC was entirely capable and knew that Scott Hall and Kevin Nash were under contract with the WWE. We may have all known that; The Mainstream Media, however, did not. Hell, for all the mainstream knew, you had these two interlopers (Would have been more funny if they went with that name, instead of Outsiders) who were part of another company, sent to sabotage the other. So remember this point throughout the entire thread; when I say succeeded, I mean financially. I mean in terms of gaining viewers to watch their shows, merchandise sales which went through the fucking roof, and butts in the seats, to paraphrase Tony Schiavonte there, as Hulk Hogan liked to call him. When we're talking about the IWC, you really can't factor in our knowledge of what was going on to the success of the angle, because quite frankly, Eric didn't care if he knew the IWC was aware of Hall and Nash's contracts. As long as he could get the news out that The Outsiders were a part of the WCW, and were potentially sent by Vince McMahon, Eric Bischoff had succeeded. Because, quite frankly, the mainstream media are morons as it pertains to professional wrestling.

Now, let's also get this out of the way... Yes, I'm aware that Eric Bischoff blatantly asked Hall and Nash if they were part of the WWE. Mere pandering for the potential lawsuit, if anything. The only reason Eric Bischoff threw that in there was to cover his ass when Jerry McLevitt came calling with a copyright infringement lawsuit. Of course, that would come anyway, but nevertheless, Bischoff only put that out there to cover his ass. Aside from that one statement, every thing about that angle implied at the very least, that Hall and Nash were sent by Vince. Besides that, if we all remember correctly, what was the most memorable thing about that promo? Hmm... I don't know. Could it have been the powerbomb through a fucking table? Why, yes, of course it was the powerbomb of Eric Bischoff through the god damn table! As a matter of fact, let's watch that exact same promo I'm talking about right now....

[YOUTUBE]MKlBXnEkAAw[/YOUTUBE]​

Yeah, because that wasn't anything like their on screen chracters in the WWE. I guess we should "carve it up" to sheer coincidence, right? You know, like a Razor?

Anyway, realistically, did you really remember anything after the powerbomb? That was such a shocking moment at the time, that quite frankly, didn't it make everything else you saw seem.... forgotten? I argue, and still do, that there was clear intent there. Bischoff needed something to cover his ass in court, by saying he said on screen they did not work for the WWE. All of which meant absolute bumblefuck after he was powerbombed through a fucking table, because that was the moment to remember after that interview. If you were to ask 100 people about what they remembered from that promo, I'd say 95 of them would say they remember the powerbomb, and nothing more.

Now then, let's be honest here; what was the appeal of signing Scott Hall and Kevin Nash? Seriously, what about these two men made it so appealing to have them on roster? Was it their cut-rate work in the ring? Yeah... Try again, junior. The fact of the matter is, Kevin Nash may be the worst worker that was WWE Champion. Scott Hall was a pretty good worker, but nothing more than that. He surely wasn't as good a worker as Sting, as Savage, as Flair, as Anderson, you can go one for days and name better workers that were in WCW at the time. Were they so attractive because they were superstars? Well, yes, off the backs of the WWE. But let's be honest; neither of these men were Shawn, Bret, or The Undertaker, when it comes to star power. Maybe Razor, at best, was the the fifth biggest superstar in the company at the time, and Diesel may have been the fourth biggest. Again, it's a good signing, but not exactly one that warranted the money Eric threw at these men. Razor had always been a mid card champion, and nothing more. People can debate whether he deserved more than that, but all we have was that he was the Intercontinental Champion in the WWE, and that was as big as his star power was. Diesel was probably more of a star, which again, gets kind of crippled by the fact that he was worth fuck all in the ring. Were they so attractive to Eric for their mic skills? Eh, no. Razor Ramon was always great on the mic... In character. And sheerly in character. Scott Hall by himself was pretty average on the mic, and always relied on that little crutch of his, that Tony Montana accent. Which, mind you, was crafted where again? That's right, The WWE. Diesel, while a smart man, never really put it to good use. Must I point out this little golden piece of treasure.

[YOUTUBE]-ZNOrKud4s0[/YOUTUBE]​

Not exactly Nash's brightest moment on the mic. As for being draws? That will let out the largest pfffft from me since I blatantly stole the joke from Uncle Sam three months ago. Nash was one of the worst drawing champions, and Hall may never really have had a chance to prove he was a draw by himself.

So, out of all of the major points for signing a wrestler, and why they make a good addition to their roster, Hall and Nash have vastly underperformed in all four categories. And God knows I didn't even mention the habit of shit stirring these two boys had. So what made them so attractive? Why, that they could represent the WWE, of course. For years, those in the know, and those not even in the know were looking for a promotion war VS. WWE and WCW. Of course, we all knew it wasn't happening, but the marks of the media, and those who just didn't know any better, really believed this could legitimately happen. In spite of the fact that it really wasn't good business, people really did buy that a promotion war could eventually happen. So, Eric Bischoff, playing off that desire, signed these two guys, without divulging to the audience that they were actually signed. For weeks, they played "Outsiders" who wanted a "war". Of course, they were never reallt outsiders, but that was all that was needed. Once they let that be known, The nWo gimmick was off to the races. Bischoff left for everyone to assume they came from the WWE, and that everything they saw was legitimate. It wasn't so much he told everyone they were part of the WWE, it was that he did not not tell them that Vince sent them, and gave a little wink for the emphasis. He let everyone talk about it, and once that happened, he saw fit to sign every ex WWE wrestler he could find, or put every ex WWE member that was already on roster, into his lineup. of course, it wasn't the WWE, right?

I think the evidence is before you, and we can all come to the same conclusion. The reason that the nWo succeeded was because Eric Bischoff piggybacked off the two characters from WWE he just signed, and without outright saying it, made us all believe that the WWE was invading their promotion. The WWE, more than anything, is responsible for the nWo getting over.
 
I know its apples and oranges.. but Vince had the opportunity to do something that just took place recently in the mma world.

After the destruction of Michael Bisping at UFC 100 Dan Henderson became a FA. Before Strikeforce could unwrap their new present on CBS Dana went out to the media/message boards/etc and said "don't listen to Strikeforce, I'm 1000% sure Dan Henderson has signed a deal with Strikeforce" (This came up after Strikeforce Promoter Scott Coaker went to the media and claimed Henderson was a free agent and they've only had "little discussion"

So the question you have to ask is... Should Vince have been more blatant about Hall and Nash signing with World Championship Wrestling?

You also have to look through Vince McMahon's eyes and consider the fact he didn't have a clue where they were going with the storyline (past the Bash of course.. he defiantly should of taken the opportunity and derailed the invading storyline before it got the legs)

According to Jim Cornette, Vince McMahon doesn't watch the competitions product. Even when WWE was getting their ass handed to them in the "war," Cornette claimed Vince never saw Nitro. With that being said, I imagine the way he found out was somebody came up to him and said "Vince you're not going to believe what WCW is doing."

I completely agree with you Razor Ramon was oozing machismo where Scott Hall started coasting on the mic.

Nash's 94-95 run as Diesel really never impressed me and I agree with Flair that cosmetic value allowed him to become the highest paid wrestler in the company. Not to mention anytime a new talent would sign, Nash's salary was topped yet again.

So, In conclusion I have to agree with you that the WWE failed to derail this before it got the legs to become something. I'm not necessarily saying Vince's attitude caused this with refusing to pay attention to competition, but I'm sure it didn't help much.

Good stuff Tenta
 
I would have to say WWE is ALMOST fully responsible for the success. Vince should have just said Razor Ramon and Diesel no longer work for this company to try and take some steam from their appearances in WCW. It would've been quick and subtle and some fans would've overlooked it. It would've made a world of difference though. Sometimes you just do what you gotta do, similar to the GM of the Cavs denouncing LeBron. It wasn't the right thing to do but i'll be damned if he didn't do it. Vince shouldn't of had an anger induced promo, but he should've told the wrestling world that those two guys had nothing to do with the WWF. At that time, WCW would probably readjust and change some promos so they didn't imply it anymore. Fact of the matter is, WCW kept implying and WWF didn't NOTHING about it. Sure, there were copyright lawsuits, blah blah blah.. but obviously nothing serious happened because WCW kept with the subtlety.

Now, the reason I said ALMOST in the beginning is because a man who I believe is just a tiny bit responsible, in the overall scheme of things/success of the angle, is Eric Bischoff. For him to insert the implication that Hall & Nash were WWF Invaders was genius. To continue to push the envelope without having to constantly say the letters WWF was genius. Bischoff knew what he was doing and pushed it at the right time during the dead period in wrestling. I could probably elaborate more but I think ya'll get the gist of this post.
 
I would have to say WWE is ALMOST fully responsible for the success. Vince should have just said Razor Ramon and Diesel no longer work for this company to try and take some steam from their appearances in WCW. It would've been quick and subtle and some fans would've overlooked it. It would've made a world of difference though. Sometimes you just do what you gotta do, similar to the GM of the Cavs denouncing LeBron. It wasn't the right thing to do but i'll be damned if he didn't do it. Vince shouldn't of had an anger induced promo, but he should've told the wrestling world that those two guys had nothing to do with the WWF. At that time, WCW would probably readjust and change some promos so they didn't imply it anymore. Fact of the matter is, WCW kept implying and WWF didn't NOTHING about it. Sure, there were copyright lawsuits, blah blah blah.. but obviously nothing serious happened because WCW kept with the subtlety.


You know, it's actually funny, you say that... Vince did try that. He just did it way too late. If you remember, Vince still owned the copyrights to Razor and Diesel. So when he realized what was going on, instead of just acknowledginf Razor and Diesel didn't work for him, he created another version of both characters. Which, in turn, he said that Razor and Diesel were his creations, and that Hall and Nash were expendable. Problem is, he did it way too late. If he did it while Hall and Nash were debuting in WCW, it would have really undercut the momentum of WCW, if you ask me. Vince waited to long to pull the trigger, and it just looked petty, rather than acknowledging Razor and Diesel, in their original form, were gone.

Great post, man
 
Haha, ya know I thought about Fake Diesel and Fake Razor when I was posting but didn't mention them because I felt them to be irrelevant and you proved my thought to be correct. He ran that angle WAAYYY too late for anybody to take it seriously. You're right though, if Vince would've put them in before Bash at the Beach, he would've taken away the momentum a tad. Let's face it, after Bash at the Beach there was no way to stop the angle.
 
I'll admit that Bischoff's nWo-angle worked so well because of the WWF-machine. Had Diesel & Razor not had TV-time with another promotion, the angle never would have worked as well as it did. If the two "outsiders" had been from some indie promotion, no one would have known who the hell they were.

The idea that the WWF was so "above" WCW at the time is laughable. Wasn't the WWF already running the now infamous "Billionaire Ted" promos (with The Huckster & The Nacho Man) before Razor and Diesel ended up in WCW? Wasn't it the WWF who added PPVs after WCW kept adding PPVs? Would the WWF have 12 PPVs a year if WCW hadn't have done it first?

Vince loves to say that the WWF didn't pay any attention to what WCW was doing, but that's bullshit. That's just something that's said so they don't look stupid in hind-sight. They didn't pay as much attention to WCW (as WCW did to the WWF), but they still paid close attention. They would have been stupid not to.

The WWF, in the end, was smarter. The stars they stole from WCW were young up-and-comers who hadn't really been given a chance yet. Remember the angle with the "Radicalz"? Same idea as what happened in WCW with the nWo. But those guys were younger. Had the nWo angle never had happened, we might have seen something bigger happen with those four in the WWF. The WWF (Vince) just had a better head for the "big picture" (long-term story lines), as opposed to trying to win the Monday Night Ratings (something WCW did on a weekly basis).

During that period of time (late-nineties), both promotions helped each other expand (whether they liked it or not). For those of you that doubt that WCW had any affect on the WWF, consider this other big one: Had it not been for WCW, we'd probably still be watching taped episodes of Raw.

The Monday Night Wars were responsible for the Attitude Era as well. If Vince wasn't paying attention to what WCW was doing, they would have gone bankrupt well before WCW ever did. I forget where/when I saw it, but I heard Mick Foley say in an interview that he didn't know how close to "going under" the WWF really was in the late nineties.

So...yes, WCW did benefit from the WWF. But the WWF benefited from WCW as well.
 
It wasn't a case of the WWF not paying attention to WCW.. of course, they HAD to pay attention. They just didn't out right mention WCW on their broadcasts and took ideas to try and make them better to play it off like they thought of it first. It was up to us to determine who's version we liked better. Everybody remembers Eric saying Foley wins the belt and then everybody changing the channel. That shit was stupid. Vince put out Fake Razor/Diesel and everybody said "yeah okay, we'll just watch the real ones"
 
Well, the WWF certainly made references to WCW when Jericho debuted in the WWF (Rock mentioned Juventud Guerrera), they certainly mentioned WCW when the Radicalz debuted, and also when "Paul Wight" (Giant) debuted at the WWF as well. So the WWF knew what they were doing, they just didn't do it first.

I'll admit that WCW was playing dirty first, but the WWF did it later as well.
 
Haha, ya know I thought about Fake Diesel and Fake Razor when I was posting but didn't mention them because I felt them to be irrelevant and you proved my thought to be correct.

I always get annoyed when someone says this. This is not a real sport. It is entertainment we are talking about here. There is no such thing as a "fake" character in entertainment. Actors play character roles...they arent the character for real. Scott Hall and Kevin Nash were the ORIGINAL razor ramon and diesel NOT...i repeat NOT....the "REAL" rr and d.

Are Roger Moore, Pierce Brosnan, Daniel Craig, etc. "FAKE" James Bonds just because Sean Connery was the ORIGINAL? Are Christian Bale, Val Kilmer, George Clooney all FAKE Batman's because others played the role before them?

Wrestling fans for the most part are soo fickle in their views because they are stuck inside a box and dont see the overall picture. Sports entertainment comprises "wrestling-themed" tv shows just like any other sitcoms you see on tv with "athletic wrestling-oriented" actors playing roles of characters with scripts,storylines. and episodes with characters being written off and put in all the time.

In conclusion, just because someone isnt the original actor playing a role...it doesnt make them the "fake" character. Stop the ignorance!
 
I think the evidence is before you, and we can all come to the same conclusion. The reason that the nWo succeeded was because Eric Bischoff piggybacked off the two characters from WWE he just signed, and without outright saying it, made us all believe that the WWE was invading their promotion. The WWE, more than anything, is responsible for the nWo getting over.

I think this is 100% correct; however, I still don't think it takes away from the genius of the idea.

In fact, I think it's more impressive that Bischoff was able to pull if off like he did rather than just doing it with a couple of no-names or two WCW home-growns.

Think about this... you sign Kevin Nash and Scott Hall, two of the biggest names from the WWF at the time. Now, the possibilities are endless with how you can use them. I think in most cases, they come in, get put in the main event and just start feuding. In fact, in most cases, the fact would be hidden that they worked for the other company, and the two would have been given completely different gimmicks so they could hide their past persona(s). So, for Bischoff to say, "You know what? Why give these guys new gimmicks? Everybody knows who they are, so instead of just repackaging them, let's bring them in as themselves and act like a couple of guys from another company are here to takeover WCW!"

Dude, that idea deserves a LOT of credit. Not many people could have come up with it. Vince McMahon certainly would have never thought of or tried anything like that.

So, yeah... the bottom line here is, sure it was Nash and Hall's time in the WWF why the nWo angle was able to work so well, but you know what? All credit still goes to Eric Bischoff for the success of it because it was a genius way to use them, and it took a lot of balls to actually try it (when you think about it.... it was a huge risk to have these guys come in and start kicking everybody in WCW's ass while still acting like they were with the WWF, since it made the WCW guys look far inferior).
 
Sorry to post so many times on the same thread...but does anyone here honestly think there would have been a DX without the nWo? I mean, there may have been stables...but not another immediate "Kliq" group quite so fast. That just goes to further the point that the WCW had just as much influence on the WWF as the WWF had on WCW.
 
I always get annoyed when someone says this. This is not a real sport. It is entertainment we are talking about here. There is no such thing as a "fake" character in entertainment. Actors play character roles...they arent the character for real. Scott Hall and Kevin Nash were the ORIGINAL razor ramon and diesel NOT...i repeat NOT....the "REAL" rr and d.

Are Roger Moore, Pierce Brosnan, Daniel Craig, etc. "FAKE" James Bonds just because Sean Connery was the ORIGINAL? Are Christian Bale, Val Kilmer, George Clooney all FAKE Batman's because others played the role

Wrestling fans for the most part are soo fickle in their views because they are stuck inside a box and dont see the overall picture. Sports entertainment comprises "wrestling-themed" tv shows just like any other sitcoms you see on tv with "athletic wrestling-oriented" actors playing roles of characters with scripts,storylines. and episodes with characters being written off and put in all the time.

In conclusion, just because someone isnt the original actor playing a role...it doesnt make them the "fake" character. Stop the ignorance!

You're an idiot. I know wrestling is fake, I know everyone is playing a character, blah blah. Everyone called them the Fake Diesel and Fake Razor Ramon. Character or not, one specific person played it, and then they tried to pass it off as if it were real. This is not a movie, this is wrestling. Therefore, looking at the situation, if they're clearly not the same person, then they are an imposter. Would you rather me use imposter? Like before Fall Brawl '96.. there was an "imposter" Sting. You know, a Fake Sting. C'mon man, really?
 
You're an idiot. I know wrestling is fake, I know everyone is playing a character, blah blah. Everyone called them the Fake Diesel and Fake Razor Ramon. Character or not, one specific person played it, and then they tried to pass it off as if it were real. This is not a movie, this is wrestling. Therefore, looking at the situation, if they're clearly not the same person, then they are an imposter. Would you rather me use imposter? Like before Fall Brawl '96.. there was an "imposter" Sting. You know, a Fake Sting. C'mon man, really?


A fake anyone can be called that while the original is STILL playing the part...i.e. fake sting and fake undertaker etc...

Did anyone refer to Suicide as a fake Suicide just because Kaz or Daniels temporarily played the role?? Or Ric Flair as the fake Nature Boy just because two other men played the Nature Boy gimmick before him? NO they didnt...

WWE owns the rights to "Diesel" and "Razor Ramon"...those "gimmicks" can be played by anyone "actor/pro wrestler" on their payroll they see fit...when the second version of RR and D were in effect, Scott Hall and Kevin Nash weren't under contract...hence the new characters playing the roles were NOT imposters...plain and simple...
 

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