The NWO should have turned on Hollywood Hogan

[It's...Baylariat!]

Here me out.

The main problem with the nWo when it came on the scene is that it became an unstoppable force. No major nWo player lost clean in those days and if they did, it took an act of God for it to happen. Why? Hulk Hogan. Creative Control is a bitch, isn't it?

That meant that Hogan had veto power over any of his segments and matches as part of his contract with Turner. Long story short, everything revolved around Hogan. So how do you keep the nWo from killing momentum in WCW permanently? You eventually have to do away with the nWo. But how?

After about 9-12 months of running wild, Hogan starts to get 'soft' on them. He feels a little tinge of guilt for the constant shenanigans and garbage flying at him. The Outsiders and others in the nWo start to notice this and call Hogan out on it. Hogan gets defensive and stuff and everything seems good with them... until a major PPV... let's say Starrcade. You book a Nash vs Hogan title match making it seem like the nWo's wanting to keep the belt in-house and have Nash build it up like he's simply going to 'do his job' against Hollywood at Starrcade. That's when you have Hall, Nash, and whomever turn on Hogan, pin him and take the title from him. Next night on Nitro, you have Nash, Hall, and the rest of the gang come out and say that Hogan can't be trusted anymore and that he's going soft on them...and the last thing the nWo wants is someone who's soft.

Mind you, this gets Hogan off of TV for a bit as he could be filming a movie and stuff. You still have Sting doing his deal by scaring the shiz out of the rest of the nWo.... only in a month or two, you have Hogan join the fight against the nWo with Sting. Have Sting win the belt back from Nash, Hogan takes on Hall and whomever else there is... and WCW eventually tags along for an end-all match at Fall Brawl where a Hogan/Sting led group do away with the nWo and leave WCW reigning supreme.

This had to happen right? Does this make WCW a viable contender in the eyes of fans? Would it even matter if this went down because creative in WCW was its own worst enemy anyway? Would this be possible with the wrestlers involved?

 

[Nate DaMac]

I don't disagree with the idea much. They probably should have turned on him at some point. I wouldn't execute it the same way, though. I would have left everything as is up until Starrcade, then you can do the Rock/Hogan thing from WM18. Hogan and Sting have a competitive match that Sting wins clean and afterwards, they actually shake hands. That causes the nWo to turn on him the next night on Nitro, putting him out of action for a while. Sting then has a few guys to go through for a few months, Hall, Nash, Savage, etc. Then Hogan comes back and you go on with your plan.

Sounds good in hindsight, I guess.

 

[ilapierre]

Here me out.

The main problem with the nWo when it came on the scene is that it became an unstoppable force. No major nWo player lost clean in those days and if they did, it took an act of God for it to happen. Why? Hulk Hogan. Creative Control is a bitch, isn't it?

That meant that Hogan had veto power over any of his segments and matches as part of his contract with Turner. Long story short, everything revolved around Hogan. So how do you keep the nWo from killing momentum in WCW permanently? You eventually have to do away with the nWo. But how?

After about 9-12 months of running wild, Hogan starts to get 'soft' on them. He feels a little tinge of guilt for the constant shenanigans and garbage flying at him. The Outsiders and others in the nWo start to notice this and call Hogan out on it. Hogan gets defensive and stuff and everything seems good with them... until a major PPV... let's say Starrcade. You book a Nash vs Hogan title match making it seem like the nWo's wanting to keep the belt in-house and have Nash build it up like he's simply going to 'do his job' against Hollywood at Starrcade. That's when you have Hall, Nash, and whomever turn on Hogan, pin him and take the title from him. Next night on Nitro, you have Nash, Hall, and the rest of the gang come out and say that Hogan can't be trusted anymore and that he's going soft on them...and the last thing the nWo wants is someone who's soft.

Mind you, this gets Hogan off of TV for a bit as he could be filming a movie and stuff. You still have Sting doing his deal by scaring the shiz out of the rest of the nWo.... only in a month or two, you have Hogan join the fight against the nWo with Sting. Have Sting win the belt back from Nash, Hogan takes on Hall and whomever else there is... and WCW eventually tags along for an end-all match at Fall Brawl where a Hogan/Sting led group do away with the nWo and leave WCW reigning supreme.


This had to happen right? Does this make WCW a viable contender in the eyes of fans? Would it even matter if this went down because creative in WCW was its own worst enemy anyway? Would this be possible with the wrestlers involved?

It was not a problem that the NWO became an 'unstoppable force'. That was the whole point of the NWO and why the angle/faction was so successful. To sell something you need to push it to the moon. You can't just half push it like Dolph Ziggler or Miz or it'll never work. NWO was pushed no different than Cena except Cena's been dominating for 12 years. NWO only dominated for a year and half. It built massive heat that NWO guys were almost impossible to beat. And that the NWO had no fear of DQ. And that Hogan could hang onto the belt forever as long as his NWOites bailed him out. Hogan was next to impossible to beat and that is what built guys like Sting, Goldberg, DDP etc etc. Because they worked angles where people becoming emotionally invested. Hogan holding onto the title but coming within an inch from losing it kept fans ravenous (as the TV ratings of the time indicate.

I like your thinking though. This is what WCW should have done after Uncensored 99 when Flair and the Horsemen finally beat Hogan and the NWO. But it was at this point that most of the NWO elite were off TV for a few months except Nash. I always thought that Nash and Hall should have sided with Savage a year earlier and, instead of the two NWOs, they just kicked Hogan out when Savage won the title from Sting in 98 (but then Savage was injured for 9 months). When he returned right after Uncensored, they should have done it then with a new juiced up monster Savage as leader.

You are right. This would have helped balance the WCW vs NWO war in 1998. Blaming creative for the handling of the angle is too easy and not entirely the whole story. There was definitely creative problems after Bischoff was told to clean up the product in the summer of 98. But there were other issues. So many superstars, so many egos. Bischoff was pandering to all the big names and that didn't really help some of the developing stars like Mysterio Eddie and Benoit. But Bischoff had to do it. It was one crazy juggling act keeping all the superstars happy. Everything was in disarray behind the scenes in WCW and Bischoff couldn't juggle forever. And there were so many injuries at poor times (these key players were all older..more prone to injury). Just when a storyline was starting a key player would go down injured for months. And, for me, the NWO storyline couldn't finish properly because Scott Hall couldn't stay on TV for any length of time starting in 1998. Had Hall been healthy, Savage not out for 9 months, Hitman not on and off tv every few months..then who knows? But the reality was this sort of stuff screwed up the NWO angle.

Had WCW handled the NWO angle better in 1998 then perhaps WCW could have continued on past 2001 and without Vince Russo. You're definitely right though: Hogan needed to be kicked out of the group (with Scott Hall on TV with Nash) and Hogan should have been replaced by a guy like Savage or Hitman. There should have been a face Hogan feud with the NWO with Hogan and Sting saving WCW. It should have culminated in a loser must quit match where if the NWO won then they would officially control WCW. That way the NWO story could have had the ending it deserved.

 

[Bobbywoodhogan]

They should have turned on him but until after Starrcade '97. At Starrcade '97 Hogan should have lost in a squash match to Sting. The next night on Nitro Hogan wants a rematch and is really fired up. The match is a closer contest Hogan even a Hulk's up but loses. The next week the nWo say he failed and turn on him, Sting makes the save. This then sets up Hogan becoming a face again and building a program of him vs the nWo.

 

[Makaveli31]

I think WCW had it right. Hogan was massively over as heel in 1998 and even by 1999. No one was clamoring for him to return as a babyface. I think the whole black and white vs. Wolfpack angle had legs and when Sting turned to the black and red, the angle had reached it's peak. Nash and Sting were massively over and the top two faces of the company.

BUT politics played a role and Scott Hall was thrown into the back and white, Savage was put in the black and red along with Rude and Curt Hennig?!? It SHOULD have been Hogan/Savage/Giant vs Nash/Hall/Sting.

Then the NWO gets back together in '99 and screws Goldberg out of the title BUT Bischoff leaves, Nash gets the book, Hogan, Hall, and bunch of others are injured and that was that.

 

[relentless1]

I don't think Hogan should have turned face until at least 99, like the guy above me here said he still had legs as a heel for a cpl years after Starrcade 97. have the nWo/ wolfpac split with Hogan Savage on one side vs Hall and Nash on the other. Keep Sting out of the Wolfpac and put Booker T instead. Hogan, Savage, Bischoff, Steiner, Giant, Norton, Bagwell, Hennig, Rude, Adams, Stevie Ray, Disciple and Vincent in nWo Hollywood. Nash, Hall, Luger, Konnan, Booker T in the Wolfpac. End the feud at War Games, loser disbands, build up Hogan vs Hart at Starrcade 98, Steiner beats Goldberg for the belt instead of Nash, reunite the nWo in 1999 with Steiner being the one to give Hogan the belt. New nWo : Hogan, Hall, Nash, Steiner, Bagwell, Luger; get rid of the B team. Have Goldberg run through the nWo leading up to a Hogan rematch at Slamboree where Goldberg gets the belt back, then the next night you have Steiner and Nash beat up Hogan and throw him out, Hogan comes back late summer of 99 as a face siding with Sting and Goldberg against the nWo.

 

[Bobbywoodhogan]

I think WCW had it right. Hogan was massively over as heel in 1998 and even by 1999. No one was clamoring for him to return as a babyface. I think the whole black and white vs. Wolfpack angle had legs and when Sting turned to the black and red, the angle had reached it's peak. Nash and Sting were massively over and the top two faces of the company.

BUT politics played a role and Scott Hall was thrown into the back and white, Savage was put in the black and red along with Rude and Curt Hennig?!? It SHOULD have been Hogan/Savage/Giant vs Nash/Hall/Sting.

Then the NWO gets back together in '99 and screws Goldberg out of the title BUT Bischoff leaves, Nash gets the book, Hogan, Hall, and bunch of others are injured and that was that.

When Hogan did turn face in 1999 fans wanted him back as a face, if you watched the following night on Nitro the fans went crazy when he Hulked up. After that he kept getting big pops, people were ready for Hogan to turn face by then. I think yeah maybe the timing would have been to early in 98 in actuality now that I think about that.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Here's a follow up question... does anyone here think that the WCW ultimately win this battle vs the nWo?

If yes, the only logical way to do that and have Hogan be happy is have Hogan go back to babyface and rescue WCW and be the conquering hero along with Sting right?

Or do you think it didn't matter and the nWo should have lasted as long as it did?

 

[Bobbywoodhogan]

WCW had to win the battle, I'm sure Bischoff would have loved to have done a WCW and nWo portrayed as two separate companies but I don't think that would have worked.

I think Makaveli31is right when he said it should have ended in 1999 maybe not in the way he said but that early period then was perfect timing to end it. It probably should have been Goldberg that ended it at that point. Hogan definitely had to turn face at the end of it to, especially considering by 1999 people were ready to start cheering for Hogan again.

That Nitro post Uncensored where he Hulked Up in that tag match with Nash against Flair & Goldberg is still my favourite Nitro ever.

 

[Makaveli31]

Technically WCW did win the battle with the NWO when Sting defeated Hogan at Starrcade for the World Championship, the Giant (was supposed to over Nash) squashed Hall, and Zybyszko defeated Bischoff for Nitro. The NWO was split into the two warring factions after than with the idea being that the two would feud with each other. Which worked!!

Sting joining the Wolfpac was one of the greatest moments in WCW and Nitro history and got the the juice back into WCW. If done right, the popularity of the Wolfpac would have rivaled Austin in the WWF.

BUT....They had Hall join nWo Hollywood which split the popular Outsiders tag team and made NO SENSE.

Savage and Luger didn't fit in the newer, cooler back and red. Hennig and Rude should NEVER have even been considered.

It should have been Nash, Hall, Sting, and Konnan, and maybe even guys like Eddy Guerrero and Rey Mysterio. I would've liked to see Rey in the Wolfpac.

Then they throw Bret Hart in the black and white which made even lesser sense than Hall being in there and treat the Wolfpac like job guys.

Listen to Nash's shoot and all the times NWO Hollywood laid a beat down on the Wofpac without ANY rebuttal by the Wolfpac. It was due a real life power struggle backstage with Hogan and Nash.

Then they have Goldberg which was coming on like a freight train and NO ONE knew how to handle him properly. They should've built Goldberg like they did Sting in 1997. Have both Hollywood and and the Wolfpac try to recruit him and build toward Hogan vs. Goldberg at Starrcade for the belt.

Nash wanted full power in WCW and hew knew Goldberg with the belt was a HUGE challenge to his power. So he took the belt off Goldbrg at Starrcade and propped himself, Sting, DDP, and Macho Man as the top guys in 1999 when he got the book.

 

[Wald]

Would done it differently but would have also used Hogan as the catalyst to end the thing.

Have Sting defeat Hogan at Starrcade 97 and have the nWo dissolve over the coming months as Hall, Hogan, Savage and Nash all fail to get the title back off him. Have Hogan get desperate and say he'll disband the nWo if he can't beat Sting for the title at Bash at the Beach 1998. Sow the seeds of discension between Nash and Hogan coming into the event over that decision and have Nash come out and powerbomb Hogan to give Sting the win. That sets up a feud between those two in the second half of the year and ends the nWo at the same event that they were born in.

 

[thebarber]

I say at Starrcade 1998, that way the Goldberg streak could continue and even have had Hogan vs Goldberg at Starcade with nWo turning on Hogan costing him the title to Goldberg. Yes it would have tainted the victory, but not as bad as Hall tasering Goldberg. The following night on Nitro, Hogan gets a rematch against Goldberg. Hall and Nash interfere and they take him out, Bret Hartcomes out for the save, but turns and takes out Hogan and aligning with the nWo. This way we have Goldberg as the leader of WCW with Hogan and Sting as allies, with a returning Randy Savage against Hall, Nash, Scotty Steiner and Bret Hart. This brings the return of the red and yellow and keeps Hogan out of the title picture through 1999 until Goldberg drops the belt to Bret Hart at Starrcade 1999. Leading into 2000 where we finally get Bret Hart vs Hulk Hogan for the WCW World Title. This would have kept WCW storylines afloat for a lot longer.

 

[klunderbunker]

I say at Starrcade 1998, that way the Goldberg streak could continue and even have had Hogan vs Goldberg at Starcade with nWo turning on Hogan costing him the title to Goldberg. Yes it would have tainted the victory, but not as bad as Hall tasering Goldberg. The following night on Nitro, Hogan gets a rematch against Goldberg. Hall and Nash interfere and they take him out, Bret Hartcomes out for the save, but turns and takes out Hogan and aligning with the nWo. This way we have Goldberg as the leader of WCW with Hogan and Sting as allies, with a returning Randy Savage against Hall, Nash, Scotty Steiner and Bret Hart. This brings the return of the red and yellow and keeps Hogan out of the title picture through 1999 until Goldberg drops the belt to Bret Hart at Starrcade 1999. Leading into 2000 where we finally get Bret Hart vs Hulk Hogan for the WCW World Title. This would have kept WCW storylines afloat for a lot longer.

This doesn't hold up all that well.

First of all, it gets us right back to the same problem that plagued WCW for so many years: the same people on top forever. This is the same old guys fighting each other while Goldberg runs through them all, making the entire main event scene look like a bunch of nothings. Also, Goldberg holding the title for a year and a half is WAY too long. He'd need to drop it in July of 1999 at the latest, not Starrcade 1999.

Sticking with the same guys over and over again was a big reason why WCW went under. They needed new stars on top, not just different combinations of the same guys fighting each other.

 

[Bockwinkel's Class]

Also, Goldberg holding the title for a year and a half is WAY too long. He'd need to drop it in July of 1999 at the latest, not Starrcade 1999.

On the other hand it may better than what actually ended up happening with the title changing hands every couple of weeks.

Sticking with the same guys over and over again was a big reason why WCW went under. They needed new stars on top, not just different combinations of the same guys fighting each other.

No argument there: The only fresh face at the time was Goldberg. They needed to start moving some upper-midcarders into the main-event scene. By the time they did with Steiner and Booker T it was too little, too late. Benoit needed to be elevated, Bret Hart needed to be brought into the mix as he hadn't been in WCW long enough to get stale. DDP still had some main-event life left. Sting, Luger, and Nash were still useful main-eventers who's roles needed to be reduced to lower level main-eventers. Hogan and Savage needed to retire and Flair needed to move into an on-screen non-wrestling role.