The nWo: Does size matter?

[Toroc102]

Whenever a post on the nWo is made usually there is some disagreement on one subject, the size of the faction. A lot of people preffered the nWo when it was kept small and elite, either with just the original 3 or maybe a few others after that. However I disagree and feel that the people who view it that way are misinterpreting what the point of the nWo was.

When they came in, they weren't a stable that was looking to rule WcW by taking all of its titles, they we're an invading force that wanted to destroy and replace WcW, starting off by destroying the competition. If they had stopped at just 4 or 5 members, I would have never gotten the impression that they were really going to war with WcW, I would've just thought geez WcW outnumbers the nWo about a 100 to 5, why don't they just unite and kick their ass. However when they got ahold of Bichoff and started offering contracts to anyone that wanted to jump ship, I started to feel like wow, this is an actual war, they're not just taking 3 or 4 guys, they're dividing the entire promotion, they might actually be able to pull this off.

I feel that its essential for storyline purposes that the nWo not be viewed just as a stable but as a rival promotion, and in order to truly rival WcW it had to compete in every facet, Titles, Main-Eventers, Mid-Carders, Jobbers, Managers, authority figures, it had to be the evil mirror version of WcW, not just another stable.

Also just for cosmetic purposes and personal reasons, I thought the nWo being an army and not just a 4 man stable made it so much larger than life. During their entrances it seemed like the nWo was the thing to be, they we're like a bunch of rockstars walking 20 deep down the ramp in comraderie. Many of the things that made it epic we're due to its size. Remember when the nWo would overwhelm the smaller stable just because they always had numbers? Remember the all out brawls WcW would have with the nWo? When it was like 20 guys fighting another 20 guys in the ring at the end of the show. Would Sting beating up 4 guys have been as crazy as him coming out with the bat and taking out 15 guys by himself? Beating 4 guys up would've made him badass. Taking the entire nWo on made him a legend.

I think the size of the nWo is what made it so popular to be honest, remember the nWo was only 3 men for a short while, and they started expanding almost immediately. By the end of 96, they had already added, Dibiase, The Giant, Sixx, Vincent, Nick Patrick, the Fake Sting, Bichoff, Buff Bagwell, Wallstreet, Big Bubba, and Scott Norton. Thats 14 members of the nWo(11 of them wrestlers)all before their unprecendented peak in popularity in 97.

So what do you guys think, you like nWo big or small?

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I liked the NWO when it was Hogan, Hall, and Nash. I didn't mind X-Pac joining but then it seemed like everybody and their mother started joining and it sort of diluted the group for me. From week to week, you didn't know who was joining or leaving the group and it shouldn't have beent that way. Even though The Horseman had a lot of members through the year, they usually kept around four or five members which was a good thing.

 

[Marduk]

I would have to agree I like the NWO large and this is why. It was cool to have Big Sexy, Hall, and Hogan but as stated how could they battle with the WCW roster with just those 3. I think they should have kept it to around 12 members and that would have been enough to battle WCW. The true NWO members I consider other than the first 3 are Buff, Steiner, Giant, Norton, billion dollar TED, Brutus beefcake, I guess Xpac....Those are my choices along with the original 3... Now it went downhill when it was the LWO, and all the less then mid carders became members..then having the top 3 having creative control was also a huge mistake for the Bisch…….. . Those are my thoughts...

 

[Maikeru_1979]

i really liked it as a small group and as a large group. but with the nWo large was the way to go. their misson was to take over WCW and replace it with nWo. granted when it got to large there was bound to be problems hence the split to Wolfpac and nWo Hollywood. I remember in january 97 when they did the first nWo Souled Out ppv I had just turned 18 and was the first PPV I was able to watch. At the time I really thought that the nwo could actually kill off wcw(this was before i found the inernet sites and found out it was all storyline to get ratings)

i enjoyed it up until the finger poke of doom after that all i wanted was for the nwo to end.

 

[Mr_billy]

I enjoyed a Large NWO. It created a division between fans and created a good rivalry, Lets Just say Cubs Vs Sox, Bears Vs Packers. 2 NWOs were 1 too many, it was just wanting everyone to have an NWO. The NWO was fun and fresh and was it's own entity trying to take over the WCW, it was an Extremely hostile corporate takeover and even had members to rough people up on the F show, Saturday Night. The Wrestling Vs Rastlin' was an enjoyable concept, but only worked when it was new and fresh.

 

[cwill18]

They should have kept it small. They don't have to take on the entire roster head to head. They shouldn't have had any titles, the group is most effective as the "outsiders" who show up when WCW's guard is down, kick some ass, disturb the show and leave when they start to get outnumbered. Putting titles on them and adding WCW wrestlers to the group takes the edge away.

 

[school-of-hard-knocks]

Honestly, I think what made nWo special was that 3 wrestlers were able to take on the entire WCW. They had a 7 foot 320 pound Kevin Nash. Scott Hall was a badass. And they had a bigger than life legend in Hulk Hogan. Personally, I think they should've kept the faction exclusive to WWF wrestlers who jumped the ship. It just made sense. They portrayed the nWo as a WWF offspring that wanted to come in and destroy WCW. So why dilute it with a bunch of WCW wrestlers? If I was in control these are the wrestlers who would've made the nWo cut:

Kevin Nash
Scott Hall
Hollywood Hogan
Lex Luger
Randy Savage
Syxx Pac
Curt Hennig
Ted DiBiase (manager)

In my opinion that would've been a very stacked up, powerful faction that people would believe could've taken on WCW. And later on if they planned to give nWo its own show they could've added more people to it.

 

[healyz84]

While I liked the idea of having the nwo being a large faction, this was in fact not the original intent of the nwo. It was suppose to be an invading faction, bent on destroying and taking over the wcw. While I understand having 1 or 2 wcw turncoats, it really should have stuck to an elite force, generally of ex-wwe or other promotion wrestlers. When you had Nash and Hall, it was a big deal. Adding Hogan was a necessity to get the nwo truly over. Syxx was your elite cruiserweight. Adding guys like Luger and Scott Steiner made sense because they were former top guys in the wwe. The Giant made no sense, and he didn't last very long anyways. Other guys like Scott Norton or Buff Bagwell made the nwo lose some credibility, as these guys were not elite in any sense.

You can say that it would look bad if the wcw and its 100 guy roster teamed up on the wcw roster, but that would never happen, as the wcw roster was still too fragmented, and if you had an elite force, they should be able to dispatch of the majority of the wcw underlings.

The real problems was not so much the size, but that the nwo became a force to keep the title on Hogan, which never should have been the intent. You can say that this helped keep wcw down, but really, it slowly became get the title, who cares about taking over. And, why would the boss of wcw, Eric Bischoff, leave his position and join the nwo in an attempt to take down his own business?? When Eric Bischoff jumped sides, it should have been the end of the war, with the nwo as the winner. So Bischoff should never have been a part of the nwo.

It really should have consisted of: Hogan, Nash, Hall, Syxx, Steiner, Luger, Perfect, Dibiase as the backer, and possibly had Bret Hart and Jeff Jarrett as additions later on. Then this would have been more of a force.

 

[Gods Gift]

I think the NWO had to be a large group due to the concept of taking over the wcw.But really it does'nt matter what they did or who they had in the group,because they had no direction at all and once people realized this they tuned out real quick.It was basically the same thing every week yawnnnn!

 

[smalltownfan]

I'm more of a fan of the NWO when it was smaller. I agree with one post that said that it got too diluted with everyone joining. Of course, Hogan, Hall, and Nash were awesome but when they added the Giant (Big Show) as a 4th member, they were even more dominant. Then there was the PPV when it was a 4-man NWO team of Hogan, Hall, Nash, and Savage which was the most star-studded group. It did make for intriguing TV to have 15 members of the NWO jump one or two WCW guys to really make it look like they were in fact taking over and there was a gang warfare mentality to it. However, in the end, like the best factions I have seen like the Four Horsemen, DX, Evolution, etc., it seemed as if 4-5 members was going to work out best.

 

[Lancer]

I liked my nWo big. With the first few guys, it just seemed like a few rebels that just beat up a few guys here and there. But as soon as The Giant joined, and Eric Bischoff joined, it just took off from there. They seemed like an unstoppable mob.

It was always cool be watching a match involving someone the nWo had beef with, and see about 10 nWo members run down to the ring and beat the living crap out of him, or vice versa. It always set the crowd on fire and made some cool television.

I really don't think the nWo got diluted. It was just unnecessary to split it up into two factions in 1998, when Starrcade 1997 would have been a fitting end to the New World Order. But i digress...it was better as a fucking mobscene, than lawn-darting Rey Mysterio into a wall.

 

[Tenta]

God.... i promise myself I'll stay out of the Old School one day, damn it. And then this fantastic topic pops up!

Curses, Toroc. You may be a good poster yet, but you're addicting threads have brought me in here! Anyway, as to the actual question... The nWo was at it's absolute best with a small, elite mixture. I actually believe the best incarnation of the nWo was Hogan, Hall, Nash, DiBiase, and Giant.

Why? Because it makes it look as though it's important. If the nWo didn't let in lifetime jobbers like Virgil and crew, it makes the audience think less of the group. They think to themselves, "If he can get in, who won't they take" Suddenly, your group becomes completely made of lifetime jobbers, and no one takes you seriously anymore. However, if you keep a close herd of wrestlers who are at the top, they seem more dangerous. In the world of wrestling, where wrestlers can beat an entire mob all by himself, numbers aren't where the strength is at. The strength revolves around wrestlers being dominant, and only accepting the dominant creatures that are around them. Large numbers of people just screams to me that everyone is just joining on the bandwagon, and that the group has no standards.

alas, that's just me. Great topic, Toroc

 

[Super Crazy]

Yes, size did matter with the nWo. If a stable grows too large, how can they be taken seriously? Even if the stable is full of completely dominant wrestlers, if there is about 15 of them in the stable, how can that be believable for anything. While the nWo had major success, I believe that even though it dragged on, that it would have been shown more love if it had maintained itself as a small group of wrestlers who were at the time of their game at the time.

With too large of a group, the dominant wrestlers eventually all look weak, as who are they going to face aside from constant jobbers? Fighting no names and jobbers week in and week out make them look like they are not important, but more so bullies then anything else. And I know, essentially the nWo could be looked at as a group of bullies, but who would enjoy watching bullies pick on little small guys. People watch wrestling so they can see guys be challenged and fight hard to earn respect and title shots, well that's part of the reason for me anyway. So my point is that if the nWo was full of all the dominant wrestlers, what challenge would there be for them?

I remember at one time it felt as the entire roster was nWo. What sort of challenge was that? Now, as Tenta said, letting in the jobbers would not be good either, because if you essentially let in the guys that allow you to look dominant, how can you look so dominant?

I personally feel the best incarnation was the Wolfpac. It was a great mix of veterans whose skills in the ring all varied with each being different from the other. To me, in order for a group to be dominant, that is part of what it takes, you have to have each person be good at something that the other is not. For example, Kevin Nash was a big power guy. Then you have a guy like Curt Hennig, who could essentially be considered a good mix of power and technicality, but being more leniant to the technical abilities.

Anyway, before I drag on too much, the answer is that for the nWo, yes size did/does matter.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I tend to like smaller factions more and felt that the nWo was at its best when you had Hogan, Hall, Nash, Bischoff and Syxx. When you have everybody and their mother joining up with a faction, you tend to wind up having a lot of wrestlers that are basically just doing nothing. They're not contributing, they're not hurting the group, they're just not doing anything at all except stand around and be seen.

In TNA right now, I think that the World Elite is a good example of that. You've got Eric Young, Brutus Magnus, Doug Williams, Rob Terry, Kyoshi, Bashir and Homicide comprising the group and most of those wrestlers don't do squat. Kyoshi, Bashir and Terry don't contribute to promos and do nothing but job when they wrestle. Although, TNA does need jobbers right now.

However, as far as the nWo goes, I thought it was best when it was smaller. The Fabulous Freebirds and the Four Horsemen were great groups and they worked because, by keeping the membership small, that meant that every wrestler in the group had to be able to contribute something worthwhile to the group as a whole. In some way, shape or form, you had to be good.

When the nWo expanded, branched off into the Wolfpack and all this, it just lost a lot of its luster for me.

 

[absent]

Whilst the point of the NWO was to "take over" WCW, if successful it should then naturally absorb the larger part of WCW... personally I would have preferred to see the NWO stay as a small ruling core and parts of WCW affiliate with them rather than actually becoming massive messy NWO. Might have been more complicated to write and explain but the huge expansion of the group and the choice of members just made it look weak to me. There was no division between the leaders and the crap. I guess the Red/Black was an attempt at that, but it was too late by then.

 

[capoxstatus]

A faction is always better when it has a couple of members mostly because it makes it seem elite. The horsemen and evolution come to mind when i think of that, both had 4 members and had success albeit one more than the other but success never the less. When you have faction that has tons of members it makes it seem that everybody and anybody can join *cough disco inferno*. Dont get me wrong i enjoyed the NWO as much as the next person but after about hmm the 8th member i had enough. At first it was 3 of the biggest names in wrestling, Hogan, Hall and Nash. That was pretty good by itself but they decided to add more and more and more, that just pretty much killed it to a point where i forgot who was and wasnt in there. So smaller factions are better where as the members can shine more as opposed to the larger get lost in number factions.

 

[Toroc102]

I stand by my original stane of liking it big, but I think the problem eventually was that they never went anywhere with it. I think the original plan was to give Thunder to the nWo but after Souled Out failed and a nWo only Nitro failed plans we're stopped.

Once those plans we're scratched eventually you had to wonder how guys like Macho Man, Giant, Nash/Hall, Scott Steiner could coexist, instead you had a bunch of infighting that never really led to anything.

I actually hated the Wolfpac, I thought they went totally the wrong way with the angle once it was decided not to give them their own show. I thought at that point WcW should have just won the war instead of letting the nWo fight amongst itself while most of the rest of WcW took a backseat except for Goldberg. I mean even Sting had taken a backseat and I never thought he should've joined any incarnation of the nWo, he should've been the one to destroy it.

Have to disagree that guys like Vincent/Disciple made the nWo look weak. Like I said I always viewed the nWo as more of an organization/army than a stable, and every one needs its jobbers/foot soldiers. Again once plans we're halted for an nWo show, I think it would've elevated a lot of guys by having them dismantle the nWo piece by piece. Imo the nWo always seemed like the elite no matter how many jobbers they included(wasn't that many was it? I mean aside from Vince/Big Bubba/Wallstreet, and of course the nWo B-Team when the nWo was way past its expiration date).

A bunch of WcW guys could've beat guys like Vincent/Disciple down, Hall/Nash and most of the Main-Eventers in the group should've just turned on Hogan/been kicked out by him, and in the end it should've been him by himself with maybe one or two members left before he was finally vanquished for good. Of course, WcW obviously screwed up the nWo big time, they could've used it to catapult so many others into the spotlight, and it could've gone down as HANDS DOWN the gratest angle of all time. Ah well it is what it is.

BTW, thanks for the compliments Tenta.

 

[King Douche]

I feel also that the NWO should of remained small and no go big like it eventually had done. It was better when it was just the big 3, Hogan, Nash and Hall. But no shame in adding maybe a few more people but up to about 8 is just plain enough. And all the guys on the team should of been only main eventers and midcarders, no jobbers at all. How can you have jobbers apart of an elite unit like the NWO.

I also feel that the NWO should of lasted for a couple of years like 1996-2000. 4 years is good enough for them to be around. How it could of happen was in their first year 1996-1997, they could of established themselves as an elite force to be reckon with, attacking superstars from behind, disrupting matches and casuing chaos backstage in the lockerooms. Bascially being rebels and making it out that they will do whatever they want too when they want too.

Second year 1998, would be them trying to make it that they want to take over wCw, saying they do not like how the company is going and they want to do things their way. All throughout that year they could recruit a few more people and totally dominate wCw in their war that their having against the company. And in the 3rd year, 1999 could be wCw getting a leg up in the war with help from Sting and Goldberg. The leaders for the wCw, and now since Goldberg has arrived on the scene and cleaned house of the NWO, wCw is now on even grounds with the NWO and on the verge of taking them down.

And in 2000 would be the end of wCw as they fall apart. They would be like the Roman empire finally taken down forever. As they would start to not trust each other and memebers would be kicked out by Hogan, but Hogan would be betrayed on and they would try to keep the group together but wCw is finalyl able to take the NWO down and win the war. Then everything goes back to normal and guys would have been pushed along the way as a result of the storyline.

 

[healyz84]

Have to disagree that guys like Vincent/Disciple made the nWo look weak. Like I said I always viewed the nWo as more of an organization/army than a stable, and every one needs its jobbers/foot soldiers. Again once plans we're halted for an nWo show, I think it would've elevated a lot of guys by having them dismantle the nWo piece by piece. Imo the nWo always seemed like the elite no matter how many jobbers they included(wasn't that many was it? I mean aside from Vince/Big Bubba/Wallstreet, and of course the nWo B-Team when the nWo was way past its expiration date).

Like i've said, I would have rather the nwo be a smaller organization of the elite, ex-wwe'ers who looked like an invading army trying to take down wcw. This is the way that wcw began to portray the nwo, and it should have been the way they stayed.

With that being said, I can agree that a large nwo with a lot of jobbers would have worked if the design was for wcw to eventually defeat the nwo and not for the nwo to blow-up on its own. If the nwo were to be an invading army, and take control, only for a few of the wcw guys to stand up, take a stand, and begin taking down the nwo 1 by 1, then it would have been good. It definitely would have been Goldberg and Sting, maybe 1 or 2 other guys who were either wcw alumni who had never been in wwe or new up-and-comers like Goldberg.

Then it would have made sense to have the foot soldiers, the pawns to be the first to fall. That would have been guys like Vincent, Big Bubba Rogers, Bagwell and Norton. Once those guys had been defeated/taken out, then the wcw resistance could go after the next group, such as Syxx, Henning, Macho Man and so on. Finally, the resistance would be left with the nwo pillars, being Hall, Nash and Hogan. Defeating them would have wcw return from the ashes and defeat the nwo, and I think this would have been great, compelling television.

Alas, this vision went aray, and the nwo became less of an invasion and more of a stable designed to keep the title on Hogan. Then power struggles came, then the nwo became a shell of its former self.

 

[Kenny Powers]

You can't really take NWO serious when you have Horrace Hogan and The Yetti in the group. Good things come in small packages. Especially when they are comprised of the few elite such as Hogan, Hall, and Nash. NWO just got too big too fast. There was no WCW to feud with, just more NWO.

WWE tried to recreate the NWO without having any of original NWO members anymore. Syxx and Big Show were the only ones left. Shawn and Nash were in there for a minute, along with Booker T. Again, it's hard to take them serious when you have Buff Bagwell and The Disciple at the wheel.

 

[King Douche]

WWE's version of the NWO was terrible. The storyline was not bad at all really, Vince struggling to keep control of his company so he calls upon NWO to destroy WWE, but how they was done was just lame. I mean it was good for few months when Hogan was feuding with the Rock, and NWO was attacking superstars on RAW and SD, mainly Austin and Rock. That one episode when Hogan was driving the ambulance into the Rock when he was in the car was pure awesomeness. But then when Hogan turned face and left NWO, they became weak again.

 

[Milkyway!]

I like my nWo really small. So small, Hulk Hogan wasn't even in it. I liked my nWo when it was only Scott Hall, and Kevin Nash as "The Outsiders". Once the suprise effect of Hogan changing sides, and becoming a heel, I feel like the magic was simply sapped out of the nWo entirely. I didn't find much entertainment value in Hogan being a heel, and I've always prefered the babyface that simply trampled the entire roster.

I could be biased though, I was always a WWF fan, with Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels (Don't tell Becca).

 

[King Douche]

I like my nWo really small. So small, Hulk Hogan wasn't even in it. I liked my nWo when it was only Scott Hall, and Kevin Nash as "The Outsiders". Once the suprise effect of Hogan changing sides, and becoming a heel, I feel like the magic was simply sapped out of the nWo entirely. I didn't find much entertainment value in Hogan being a heel, and I've always prefered the babyface that simply trampled the entire roster.

I could be biased though, I was always a WWF fan, with Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels (Don't tell Becca).

You realized that when it was just Hogan and Ramon it was not the NWO just the outsiders. Hogan was a great heel and needed a fresh change since the 90s was different then the 80s. Nobody wanted to see the Hulkamaniac running wild like that anymore they wanted a different Hogan. I think heel Hogan is better then face Hogan. Plus without Hogan doubt the NWO would even be cool and popular. I mean they might of been better without Hogan, but most likely proably not at all. NWO needed Hogan.

 

[jazzua]

I liked it as a smaller faction. Sure, 8 wasn't bad, but when we started seeing two limos pull up every week it got quite ridiculous. I understand it was supposed to be one promotion vs another. In order for that idea to work it needed to look equal. But, they could have just as easily kept the NWO in a more hit and run type heel stable. However, they wanted to go more with having them literally just be bigger, badder, and better than WCW, for a time.

I think the downside to the large group became that everyone was lost in the shuffle. Everyone can't be important when there is so much going on. With the NWO, everyone needed to be important. That should have been essential. We started seeing total random guys in the group that just didn't make sense. Konan, Norton, Adams, ect. I really feel that they didn't need an array of the card to work out. They could have easily been a group of 5-8 upper mid to main event guys trying to crush the WCW. That would have allowed ample time to be put toward every member, making them all look stronger instead of making the group look stronger just by shoving more people into it. By making your individual guys look stronger you make the group look stronger. Everyone was in the NWO, i was waiting for Knobbs to show up one day. It lost it's glimmer because of it. It became so big they split it, and we all know what that ended in.

 

[King Douche]

I think it totally got out of hand when Dennis Rodman joined the NWO. I mean out of anyone they had got into the group, Rodman was the worst. Not only could he not wrestle and was terrible on the mic, but he was totally random in joining NWO. Their was no point and purpose in him joining the NWO at all. Then they tried to get Jay Leno to join which was stupid and Karl Malone did join NWO and won the tag titles with Hogan I beleive. Why would you have guys who are not wrestlers be apart of your stable. It was just stupid and wrong. I was waiting for Micheal Jordan to join the NWO one day.