The Lost Art: of the Fued

[Milkyway!]

Theres something thats really been bugging me in todays wrestling world. Mostly in the WWE, but there is some of it in TNA as well. What happened to the fued? Wrestlers go at it for a month, maybe two, and they call that a fued. Looking back through youtube videos, going through DvD's, simply reading on wrestling websites, wikipedia, google, reviews, WrestleZone forums, etc. History has shown a wide variety of fueds, some lasting months, some a year, and some that still haven't died today. That brings me to this thread here in the WrestleZone forums, The Lost Art: of the Fued.

Looking back into the 90's and the 80's you will find fueds that lasted for nearly a year, to over a year, even as far as a lifetime. Not just in the Main Event scene either, even the mid card had some nice heated fueds that ran for months to years. Looking at the present wrestlers today, theres a major art many of them seem to lack, the art of the fued has been nearly lost.

Take a look at whats going on, on RAW for the past few months. We see John Cena vs Big Show 20-30 times. Which is perfectly fine, but it wasn't a fued. It was a series of matches at which The Big show came out, beat up on poor little old John Cena, Cena never got the uphand, then at last second found a way to get the count. This so called "fued" was a borefest, and is really the only blemish in John Cena's entire career. Length does not create the fued, they gave us no notable causes to react, and actually care about this fued. Fueds have noteworthy causes for the croud to react to.

Lets move onto Legacy vs The Mcmahon family, a fued in which two upcoming superstars and one of the most dominant heels in the company took on Shane Mcmahon, Triple H, and Batista. Each occurance was 3 on 1 for the most part, yet, Shane Trips, and Batista nearly always got the upper hand on RAW only to get ganked. Now then don't get me wrong when I'm using this as an example, as thats what Legacy should be doing. But the way they've gone about doing it is incorrect. Together they should look unstoppable, alone they should look strong. The way this fued has laid the storyline, together they're strong, alone, they're all useless. Shane comes running out, beats the shit out of Priceless, then beats the shit out of Orton, gets ganked, and boom thats it...Thats not a fued, its the same thing over and over. Fueds have oneupsmanship.

Lets move to The Miz vs John Cena. The Miz is 6' 1" and weights 231 pounds. He lacks a large muscle mass, and we've never really seen a great wrestling match from him alone. John Cena is 6'1" and weights 240 pounds, yet looks like a body builder. They throw him in a fued with John Cena, the fued finnally gains some momentum, and when the match finnally happens John Cena squashes the Miz. Why didn't John just smack The Miz silly on RAW, and get it over with right then and there? Fueds take Logic.

Team 3d vs Beer Money INC. The matches weren't ever really that great, and they never did much as they tried to make Team 3d shine during all of it from what I could tell. There wrestling styles clashes, and no one honestly cared about seeing these teams go around the squared circle, yet we've gotten to see it for nearly 2 months. Fueds take Chemistry.

Why do we really care about the atributes that a fued needs, and why do we really care about a fued anyways? The are of the Fued is what really makes us the fans care about the show. Just look at some of the most noteworthy fueds in the history of professional wrestling.

The Outsiders (Hall and Nash) vs WcW (This was the making of the NWO Hulk ruined the fued!)
HBK vs Bret Hart
Bret Hart vs Steve Austin
Austin vs Mcmhaon
Austin vs The Rock
The Rock vs Mankind
Taker vs Kane
The Mega powers trying to one up one another week in and out creating a fued that just exploded at WM.

Theres a shitload of fueds I can write down here to give examples of a good fued. During these times though, people really cared about the wrestling business, some may blaim the stars, storylines, and just the time, I blaim the fact that there were always some really good fueds going on during this time, at all parts of the show.

 

[Lee]

GREAT post Milky!

I think the problem with the feud is that people don't like to see things go on for too long anymore. How many times have I heard someone say "Orton v Triple H again?!" this is a prime example of a feud that has been going on since 2004, but people are bored of seeing it.

Then we have a feud I think we'll see again soon in Punk v Morrison. These guys feuded on ECW, they also had a brief Tag Team feud and I think these two will be feuders for life, I prefer how it's done that was as they feuded, broke off, got back, broke off and it just seems fresh.

 

[Milkyway!]

Well Lee, I appreciate it. When it comes to people not wanting to see the same wrestlers over and over again like HHH vs Orton, its not the fact that the two aren't good enough to wrestle again and again, its the fact that theres no oneupsmanship in these type fueds anymore. Take when the fued was at its climax, Randy kissed HHH's wife. What did HHH do? Ran through his house with a sledgehammer and beat the living hell out of Orton in his own home. Then, Orton turned around, and did nothing. The lack of oneupsmanship causes fueds that could be very long like this fued here, and creates them into small 2 month fueds, that just makes the fans go "Again?"

 

[Thriller Ant]

I think the monthly pay-per-view format has significantly shrank the attention span of the average fan. During the Monday Night Wars, both WWF and WCW started monthly pay-per-views to try and gain more money and viewers than the competition. This in turn has led to what we see today: short feuds with the payoff usually being much less satisfying than what we used to see. There isn't enough time for the feud to reach the heights and one-upsmanship you mentioned, Milk.

 

[Milkyway!]

I think the monthly pay-per-view format has significantly shrank the attention span of the average fan. During the Monday Night Wars, both WWF and WCW started monthly pay-per-views to try and gain more money and viewers than the competition. This in turn has led to what we see today: short feuds with the payoff usually being much less satisfying than what we used to see. There isn't enough time for the feud to reach the heights and one-upsmanship you mentioned, Milk.

You're correct and incorrect there Thriller. The monthly pay per views haven't effected the attention span of the wrestling fans, but the matches them selves have effected the attention spans of the wrestling fans. A fued goes for a few months, and monthly we see a hardcore match, whether it be Ladder, Last Man Standing, or some other crazy shit they can come up with. This doesn't allow the One-upsmanship I was talking about, because they lay it all on the line during the monthly pay pew views.

Then again, if you remember Jericho vs Shawn, people still felt hanging when that fued ended, and it went on for 8 months. They had Chemistry, One-upsmanship, a great Cause for the fans to react to, and logic, it made sense. This alone proves to you, a good fued will keep the fans attention just as easily as the whole 2 months of matches only to end it with a last man standing match.

The attention span of the fans is easily captured, a good fued can keep the fans attention, very easily. I have ADHD, and I can sit through a decent wrestling show with no good fueds for 2 hours every day except Wednesday, just think if it were a great wrestling show, filled with amazing fueds. Fueds = controversy, controversy = ratings, and ratings = cash. The suprise effect thats been going on, is just for a quick buck, the 80's and 90's proves to you a good fued can really capture and awe a croud, and it takes the elements I've mentioned allready to create a good fued, Thriller.

 

[tLight]

The last good feud I can remember is Jericho vs. HBK. It had a good build up, it stayed strong, had some good twists and it ended great.

The key to that feud was it ended, and the two parties involved went their separate ways. HBK moved into his feud with Taker, and Jericho went on to be the best current wrestler the WWE has to offer. They both used what they accomplished during their feuds to further themselves to do other things.

I can’t recall a boring feud involving Jericho, Taker or HBK in the past few years.
But what I can recall is every boring minute that Triple H is on air talking about how he’s the best, how his only desire is to hold the title, and how blah blah blah. I won’t even talk about how the Orton vs. Triple H feud needed to die back in 2007, but yet it still lives on to ruin Monday Night Raw every week.
At least when its Edge going for the title its something different, its a surprise at how low he'll go to get it back, its not a run over everything in your path push (without doing any work) back to the main event.

They biggest problem is they rush things. Just look at Carlito vs. Primo from this past weeks Raw. They were one of 4 tag teams in the company, and they were split up for what? We all know neither one of them has a chance on their own at getting over, so didn’t they keep building them as a credible tag team over the next few months to keep the Tag Division alive, while still building on their growing dislike for each other? I bet if Carlito vs. Primo would have been booked like Eddie vs. Chavo (which is what I think they were trying to do, but failed because they can’t book for shit on Raw) it would have worked better. Carlito could have taken a similar role as Eddie's and Primo could have been like Chavo. This may have worked, but again we rush for Primo vs. Carlito after one misstep at losing the titles, they have a match. Crash Burn, they just ruined building that team up over the past year only to have it go down in flames in one 7 minute match.

Its what they were going to do with Edge and Jericho, building up to Royal Rumble next year, that’s 7 months away, it would of played out with 3-4 months of them as successful tag team, then they would of started to have major problems, or would get WHC title shots, cost each other the number one contender ship but still have the tag titles and keep building the heat between them. If Edge wouldn’t have gotten injured the next year of Smackdown would have been great with the two of them feuding.

DiBiase vs. Orton will be a feud that happens in the next year or so, but it will be a piece of shitty garbage if they rush it. The match on Monday was great, DiBiase got to show case some the talent we know he has, and he got to do it against Orton. If done correctly DiBiase will remain in Legacy for the next year or so, so the group really gets a chance to shine, and him and Cody have more time to developed themselves. I know the group will break up down the line, but if it’s done right, both Cody and Ted can come out as big time stars, rather than just one of them getting the rub. They could both turn on Orton at some point down the line, but then one of them turns on the other, bam then you've got 3 different feuds involving 3 different people, rather than just one breaking away and feuding with the other two. Ted could break away saying how he doesn’t need Cody or Orton and how he can do it on his own, then Orton could kick Cody to the curb saying he’s not good enough to be aligned with him, or Cody could say he’s tired of doing Orton’s dirty work could join with Ted only to turn on him later.

These things aren’t out of the question, but who ever is writing the show, needs to be fired ASAP.

 

[triple_b2k]

I agree about the lack of good fueds in the WWE (I don't watch TNA so I can't comment on that).

There is room for some really good fueds on raw between lower-middle class stars. MVP vs Swagger could be really great if they don't cut it short. Even Maryse vs Mickie or Kelly Kelly would be good to watch. I think they're doing the right thing with Mickie and Maryse. They're building up the tension without having them face off. Mickie keeps kicking butt and really earning her shot while Maryse is acting like a classic heel, brushing it off saying she's nothing.

Imagine if Evan Bourne and Kofi Kingston started to fued. Enough with Big Show vs Kofi. Most of us are tired of monsters coming out during or after a match and squashing people. Than when they actually fight, they lose. BORING! Lets get some matches and fueds between equals. Evan Bourne and Kofi oneuping each other with their skills would be amazing! I know fueds don't work well between 2 faces sometimes but it could be a lot of fun to watch these guys fly around.

As for Legacy, stop turning Rhodes and Dibiase into *****es! look I know they're gonna have to take beatings from time to time but they receive them ALL the time. the face comes out and beats the crap out of those 2 than stares down Orton. Thanks but that's boring too.

Lots of future stars, lots of possible fueds...

 

[HypnotizedHero2010]

please try and remember what all those feuds were about......

now tell me if you think the current wwe creative can come up with something better. also remeber that the wwe's main demographic is children. little kids don't know about any of those feuds. they don't know the kind of wrestling their missing. wwe will not change their product unless kids stop buying merchendice and PPV's.

some of the older wrestlers like HBK, Jericho, Taker, Edge, they know how to tell a good story. the problem is there arn't any good stories to tell

 

[Slam Master]

I agree; there's no substance to the storylines or feuds anymore. Backstage buildup/segments and altercations, in-ring interviews/promos and incidents other than matches, interference, video package promos, stipulations, I can go on and on...It seems like I watch more classic stuff on YouTube and there's more meaning in a 7 minute old clip than today's redundant product.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

Lee is right, Milky, that was a great post. I will have to discuss it in detail so lets have a look.

Theres something thats really been bugging me in todays wrestling world. Mostly in the WWE, but there is some of it in TNA as well. What happened to the fued? Wrestlers go at it for a month, maybe two, and they call that a fued.

I think a lot of this is due to the writers. It seems that after those few months a lot of writers these days cannot seem to push the feud further and it really relies on the wrestlers themselves to put in the extra effort to make the feud something special. I think a great example of this would be HBK and Jericho 2008. It is known know that Jericho and HBK had a lot of input on the creative side of that feud.

I think that if you're expecting workers like Kofi Kingston and Evan Bourne to dream up some great storylines for themselves, it won't happen. I believe it comes with experience, and thus they are reduced to doing what creative tells them for a few years. Obviously this is not to say creative are exampt from blame, and you are definately right in your points.

Looking back through youtube videos, going through DvD's, simply reading on wrestling websites, wikipedia, google, reviews, WrestleZone forums, etc. History has shown a wide variety of fueds, some lasting months, some a year, and some that still haven't died today. That brings me to this thread here in the WrestleZone forums, The Lost Art: of the Fued.

What I remember so vividly from past feuds years ago was the way that they were made to feel so personal. I feel a personal issue, being your wife punched in the face or being betrayed by your brother adds so much more to a feud than simply "one upsmanship". With all due respect this can work, I think Owen Hart and Bret Hart is a great example. But being sneak attacked backstage, being beaten to a bloody pulp by someones lackeys, these are things that really fuel the fire in my eyes.

One of my favourite feuds, HBK vs HHH had all this, a trong sense of betrayal, a wild hatred towards each other. The raw emotion was simply fired on by rampant attack and sledgehammer injuries.

Looking back into the 90's and the 80's you will find fueds that lasted for nearly a year, to over a year, even as far as a lifetime. Not just in the Main Event scene either, even the mid card had some nice heated fueds that ran for months to years. Looking at the present wrestlers today, theres a major art many of them seem to lack, the art of the fued has been nearly lost.

An important thing to remember is that PPV's were fewer and further between in the 80's and 90's. Feuds hadd to be drawn out in order to make it to Summerslam etc. It was rare for a title to change hands for example on TV, thus the feuds were longer. I know you responded that you didnt believe fans attention spans were shorter. I think this is true, but I believe their expectations are much higher. They expect high octance feuds like HBK vs Jericho all the time, and thus it becomes increasingly harder for creative to dream up storylines to the fans standards.

Take a look at whats going on, on RAW for the past few months. We see John Cena vs Big Show 20-30 times. Which is perfectly fine, but it wasn't a fued. It was a series of matches at which The Big show came out, beat up on poor little old John Cena, Cena never got the uphand, then at last second found a way to get the count. This so called "fued" was a borefest, and is really the only blemish in John Cena's entire career. Length does not create the fued, they gave us no notable causes to react, and actually care about this fued. Fueds have noteworthy causes for the croud to react to.

I agree in terms of this feud. My concern with this feud was most of the action happened inside the ring. All of the focus was on the ring, Cena applying the STFU, using the Attitude Adjustment. Nearly none of the build up occured outside of the ring. Even the attacks and camel clutches happened inside the ring.

Now this could be fine, except the in ring action wasnt particular thrilling, and that it gets old after a few times.
The problem here wasnt the premise, being Cena being beaten down by a bigger opponent, but the fact that nothing was thought up in order to replace it once it got old. Which was probably around Extreme Rules.

Lets move onto Legacy vs The Mcmahon family, a fued in which two upcoming superstars and one of the most dominant heels in the company took on Shane Mcmahon, Triple H, and Batista. Each occurance was 3 on 1 for the most part, yet, Shane Trips, and Batista nearly always got the upper hand on RAW only to get ganked. Now then don't get me wrong when I'm using this as an example, as thats what Legacy should be doing. But the way they've gone about doing it is incorrect. Together they should look unstoppable, alone they should look strong. The way this fued has laid the storyline, together they're strong, alone, they're all useless. Shane comes running out, beats the shit out of Priceless, then beats the shit out of Orton, gets ganked, and boom thats it...Thats not a fued, its the same thing over and over. Fueds have oneupsmanship.

Personally, I thought that pre Wrestlemania, the HHH and Orton feud was great. It had the personal issues, the atttack on family, it had one upsmanship, with Orton winning the rumble, then HHH winning at No Way Out. It was awesome. But again, they drew it out for far too long. Not enough ideas coming in, they resorted to Batista and Shane O Mac again. Instead of ending it, they drew it on. The lack of ideas crumbled such a solid feud into rubbish.

Lets move to The Miz vs John Cena. The Miz is 6' 1" and weights 231 pounds. He lacks a large muscle mass, and we've never really seen a great wrestling match from him alone. John Cena is 6'1" and weights 240 pounds, yet looks like a body builder. They throw him in a fued with John Cena, the fued finnally gains some momentum, and when the match finnally happens John Cena squashes the Miz. Why didn't John just smack The Miz silly on RAW, and get it over with right then and there? Fueds take Logic.

I think it's because they wanted to sell the PPV rather than give it away for free. And yes they should have had the match from the NoC tournament at The Bash, but really and honestly, although the feud was great, it depended on The Miz's in ring ability on the blow off match. Although they had little time, I still dont think he has it in him to supply a GREAT match. Sorry.

Also is the fact that after a while, the 7-0 schtick and sell out schtick would have gotten tired, no matter how great it was. where would they go from there? Maybe they didnt have an option and chose the easy squash one. So we agree and disagree.

Team 3d vs Beer Money INC. The matches weren't ever really that great, and they never did much as they tried to make Team 3d shine during all of it from what I could tell. There wrestling styles clashes, and no one honestly cared about seeing these teams go around the squared circle, yet we've gotten to see it for nearly 2 months. Fueds take Chemistry.

I dont understand who you're blaming here. Creative? Either of the teams? They can't force chemistry. They just cant. The feud was ok I thought, with the mutual respect being eventually lost with a backstage brawl. But you are right in that it lacks spark.

Why do we really care about the atributes that a fued needs, and why do we really care about a fued anyways? The are of the Fued is what really makes us the fans care about the show. Just look at some of the most noteworthy fueds in the history of professional wrestling.

The Outsiders (Hall and Nash) vs WcW (This was the making of the NWO Hulk ruined the fued!)
HBK vs Bret Hart
Bret Hart vs Steve Austin
Austin vs Mcmhaon
Austin vs The Rock
The Rock vs Mankind
Taker vs Kane
The Mega powers trying to one up one another week in and out creating a fued that just exploded at WM.

I think this a very biased and skewed look at feuds. It not like you couldnt name some great feuds from the last few years as well. HBK vs Angle/Taker/Jericho/HHH or HHH/Orton,Benoit,Flair or Cena/Edge,Umaga etc.
You're just selecting some great feuds and mashing them together. But just remember that for every Austin vs The Rock, there was The Rock vs Billy Gunn.

Theres a shitload of fueds I can write down here to give examples of a good fued. During these times though, people really cared about the wrestling business, some may blaim the stars, storylines, and just the time, I blaim the fact that there were always some really good fueds going on during this time, at all parts of the show.

And there were also some terrible feuds.

 

[Double Eh]

Man tonight is my night to be checking out the forums, I've seen some good threads, and this one I'm really liking.

What I really loved are those fueds that carried on for years, through decades. I mean look at Savage and Flair. That went from WWF to WCW and it worked so well. And it worked for a couple reasons. A- they put real emotion into their history in the ring together. Having Liz involved and the love triangle was so good. And they fact that when they started working together in WCW, the announcers made a point that they had history together and they hated each other. They always pointed that out about them. And the chemistry between those two was fantastic. Savage and Hogan is the same deal. Much like everyone else I am a huge mark for Savage and loathe the very ring that Hogan steps his ugly fucking yellow boots into. But their fued was awesome. It spanned decades, it spanned companies. And it existed in real life. Yet they worked so well with each other. They had the one ups in there. They had real emotion. Btw how weird is it that Savage only lost World titles to Flair and Hogan?

There is a real lack of that today. The long drawn out fueds. Though Taker and Shawn is a great example of one that lives today. And the work between those two have always been phenomenal. I don't think they have ever had a match that wasn't at the very least, really fuckin good.

I think if they could get HHH and Orton away from each other for 3 or 4 years, and then come back to it again when hunter is winding down, we will all look back and say Orton/HHH was one of the great fueds. Yes we have all seen it a thousand god damned times, but they have all the criteria for a great fued. If left alone, and then brought back after the proper amount of time we will all love it again. Like they did with Taker and HBK. they fueded heavy for almost 2 years in the 90s, and then when brought back years later, that past history made it that much better.

I don't really think that it's really the monthly PPV format, or the attention span of the fan that has really killed the art of the fued. I think it is the ever changing taste of the fans that has killed the fued. We always want something new, every week. Alot of times we don't allow them the time to develope some of these things, before we decide we are tired of it, and start bitching about it. Granted the writers and the producers aren't doing the best job of trying to keep us interested all the time, but still. I don't think that the art is dead, I think we don't let it show.

And yes, I think Punk/Morrison is going to wind up being a fued much like HHH/Rock. Or Austin/Rock, it will span years, it will span titles. I think these guys are going to be thought of in the same sentence years from now. Who was Punk's best opponent you will ask in 10 years, I think we will say Morrison.

Also, look at Rey and Jericho. That fued has spanned decades, titles, and promotions.

Great Thread

 

[Milkyway!]

Lee is right, Milky, that was a great post. I will have to discuss it in detail so lets have a look.

Much appreciated. I'm looking forward to your discussion.

I think a lot of this is due to the writers. It seems that after those few months a lot of writers these days cannot seem to push the feud further and it really relies on the wrestlers themselves to put in the extra effort to make the feud something special. I think a great example of this would be HBK and Jericho 2008. It is known know that Jericho and HBK had a lot of input on the creative side of that feud.

I think stars have a lot of input on what happens inside the fued, they may not get to pick the exact type of matches, but I'm pretty damn sure they get to say the words according to what all I've heard. Take The Miz for example, I'm sure he allready knew it was going to be a squash when the two finnally met, so he portrayed himself as the normal trash talking son of a bitch, who really couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag.

I think that if you're expecting workers like Kofi Kingston and Evan Bourne to dream up some great storylines for themselves, it won't happen. I believe it comes with experience, and thus they are reduced to doing what creative tells them for a few years. Obviously this is not to say creative are exampt from blame, and you are definately right in your points.

The WWE is the big leauges, they should allready have a feel for the mic when they get in here. I can see a little hesitation on RAW for maybe a week or two, otherwise they should be fine as they've had practice on ECW in front of thousands of people, the show is taped so they can have redos. They should be able to cut a decent-great promo when they come on RAW allready.

What I remember so vividly from past feuds years ago was the way that they were made to feel so personal. I feel a personal issue, being your wife punched in the face or being betrayed by your brother adds so much more to a feud than simply "one upsmanship".

Personal things in a fued is needed to spark a fued, and keep the fued going for about a month or two, but it can only go so far. I punch your wife, you beat me up, what the fuck? If someone punches my wife, I'm not going to stop at beating them up, I'll get my gun and it'll be over. This goes back to the Logic, a fued must have.

With all due respect this can work, I think Owen Hart and Bret Hart is a great example. But being sneak attacked backstage, being beaten to a bloody pulp by someones lackeys, these are things that really fuel the fire in my eyes.

Once this happens with the personal issues, then it comes time for the one-upsmanship, what am I going to do to get back at them for beating me to a bloody pulp backstage? Going back to logic, obviously they can't kill someone onstage for beating them up, this brings us to One-upsmanship, get them back in the sneakiest way possible, as a heel. As a face, call them out in the middle of the ring, when they get out there, talk down to them, try and smack them, that is, if its just one man. If its a group like Legacy, call your buddies, you're a face, you're friendly, obviously you're going to have friends backstage ready to whoop up on someone. I always hated the whole 1v3 as, it makes the 3 looks way too weak without one another, logically in a fight I'm going to have 3-4 buddies backing me up ready to stop the fight, if I'm getting my ass beat, same goes for wrestling really.

One of my favourite feuds, HBK vs HHH had all this, a trong sense of betrayal, a wild hatred towards each other. The raw emotion was simply fired on by rampant attack and sledgehammer injuries.

I don't really get what you're getting at with this statement.

An important thing to remember is that PPV's were fewer and further between in the 80's and 90's. Feuds hadd to be drawn out in order to make it to Summerslam etc.

Its still not impossible for them to carry a fued for nearly a year, as Hbk/Jericho did it, and Cena/Edge carried a fued for nearly 3 years...Hardy/Edge has been going on for months now. Its not impossible to carry a fued for a very long time, in fact I'd call it easy, with the all aspects I've drawn out in the thread.

It was rare for a title to change hands for example on TV, thus the feuds were longer. I know you responded that you didnt believe fans attention spans were shorter. I think this is true, but I believe their expectations are much higher. They expect high octance feuds like HBK vs Jericho all the time, and thus it becomes increasingly harder for creative to dream up storylines to the fans standards.

I expect a simple fued every now and then honestly. I'm happy with the wrestling product today, as I've defended it many times on this forum. This wasn't meant to come off as a complaint of any kind, its just true, the fued has really died. Midcard fueds hardly exsist, and main event fueds are quite boring these days.

I agree in terms of this feud. My concern with this feud was most of the action happened inside the ring. All of the focus was on the ring, Cena applying the STFU, using the Attitude Adjustment. Nearly none of the build up occured outside of the ring. Even the attacks and camel clutches happened inside the ring.

Now this could be fine, except the in ring action wasnt particular thrilling, and that it gets old after a few times.
The problem here wasnt the premise, being Cena being beaten down by a bigger opponent, but the fact that nothing was thought up in order to replace it once it got old. Which was probably around Extreme Rules.

It is wrestling, it should be able to happen inside the ring and still give us a cause and effect type reaction. The problem really with this fued was there wasn't a cause for us to care about the fued. Okay, John Cena got thrown through the batman signal at Backlash, it was expected we got a match, we had a reason to care about the match then. 4 months later, 4 matches later, we still have this fued, and well, John Cena allready took care of him 3 months ago, why do we give a shit what Big Shows doing now, as hes allready proven 3 months ago, 50% of John Cena is better than 100% of The Big Show. There was simply no reason for us to cause about this fued, thus causing no reaction from the fans other than bitching.

Personally, I thought that pre Wrestlemania, the HHH and Orton feud was great. It had the personal issues, the atttack on family, it had one upsmanship, with Orton winning the rumble, then HHH winning at No Way Out. It was awesome. But again, they drew it out for far too long. Not enough ideas coming in, they resorted to Batista and Shane O Mac again. Instead of ending it, they drew it on. The lack of ideas crumbled such a solid feud into rubbish.

I disagree, it was obvious at WrestleMania this fued wasn't over, and that it needed to go into Backlash. At Backlash they gave a great match, seeing Orton punt HHH taking him out until about 3 weeks ago. Thats when it should have ended, right there. Instead we saw Shane come out, alone, and take out Legacy, alone. Then once they got rid of him, they did the same with Batista, and then they did it again once Triple H returned. It would have made logical sense to have them all wait, and attack together, not like they did.

I think it's because they wanted to sell the PPV rather than give it away for free. And yes they should have had the match from the NoC tournament at The Bash, but really and honestly, although the feud was great, it depended on The Miz's in ring ability on the blow off match. Although they had little time, I still dont think he has it in him to supply a GREAT match. Sorry.

The Miz has it in him to become good, but he has no logical credibility. If he were to magically start beating up on John Cena, cheating or not, it would make John look weak which is something that they don't need to do. The Miz has to build logical credibility with the likes of MVP, Kofi, and Evan Bourne, then work his way up the ladder. You can't be thrown to the wolves inside the wrestling business, they need to give it time, and climb the ladder.

Also is the fact that after a while, the 7-0 schtick and sell out schtick would have gotten tired, no matter how great it was. where would they go from there? Maybe they didnt have an option and chose the easy squash one. So we agree and disagree.

Ehh, I think you misunderstood me. I just didn't like the fact that they put it on PPV. It should have been on RAW, Cena should have dealt with this 2 weeks ago when they were eye to eye, but they didn't which was stupid.

I dont understand who you're blaming here. Creative? Either of the teams? They can't force chemistry. They just cant. The feud was ok I thought, with the mutual respect being eventually lost with a backstage brawl. But you are right in that it lacks spark.

Its creatives job to realize after even the first match, or first promo that the competitors lack chemistry, and the fued should have been called off then and there. I only used this as an example, as, it was really hard to come up with credible names that lack chemistry, as any good wrestler can put on a good match with another good wrestler, just some more than others.

I think this a very biased and skewed look at feuds. It not like you couldnt name some great feuds from the last few years as well. HBK vs Angle/Taker/Jericho/HHH or HHH/Orton,Benoit,Flair or Cena/Edge,Umaga etc.
You're just selecting some great feuds and mashing them together. But just remember that for every Austin vs The Rock, there was The Rock vs Billy Gunn.

That was a very biased list, as it was only from the 90's/80's. Of course I can go on and on from the 00's, I'm just stating my opinion in the past year or two, the fued has died.

And there were also some terrible feuds.

Never said there weren't but the guys back then really had a great sense of the art of the fued, compared to the wrestlers of today.

 

[RazorsEdge666]

This is exactly what i wrote about on the forum for Miz/Cena... WWE CREATIVE BLOWS!!!


wwe creative actually looked like they were going to do something right... until the pay per view. for weeks prior they built up the miz, even though he never really got a win or a match for that sake over cena, they were building the miz's character, they made people hate him... i honestly loved it because for year i have hated cena... cena sells t-shirts to 8 year olds. his matches are boring... 5 moves of death is all he has... he disgraces the bulldog move for christ sakes... this fued was way to short. the miz needed to build several eins, whether it be cheap or clean over cena. i know that cena is superman and the miz CAN'T realistically beat cena... have the ref get knocked out, cheap shots with a chair, salt in the eyes behind the refs back, something... but no... wwe creative had a great fued and flushed it right down the toilet... on top of that, they had a chance to elevate the miz to a upper-mid card level... but no, a short ppv match and cena getting a clean win trahed the whole fued... now what??? throw cena into the title picture again to sell a few hundred more 25$$ t-shirts that 8 year old kids cry to their parents for... same thing with mvp... wwe had a chance to elevate him to upper-mid status by having him stand up to the champ orton... but they flushed that away too, now wwe creative has nothing for mvp and he misses pay per views to hang with the fat view chick at black peoples one night a year, the bet awards... soo all in all dont expect to see the miz for a while because wwe creative probably ran out of ideas for him... wwe creative is horrible, they drown all potential and hurt their own product... and people wonder why vince is always firing people... they need MARK MADDEN back on creative to chew the idiots out... yeah freddie prince jr on creative... that lasted about a month or two then he was canned... the feud between cena and miz could of lasted for a few months and actually been a candidate for feud of the year (if jericho n mysterio didnt win, which it will)... thank you wwe creative for burying another possible star and elevating cena to superman status once more.. and they wonder why ratings are dropping, the only weekly watchers are handicapped cena fans and 8 year olds... all the adults have switched to TNA to watch real feuds that last more than a month, actually have meaning, and elevate characters... (remember when samoa joe was not main event??? i know he's a fat blob... but he proved he can be in the main even... kurt angle wasnt always main event... he was built from lower card to main event...)

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

Much appreciated. I'm looking forward to your discussion.

Well I'm just as excited for yours.

I think stars have a lot of input on what happens inside the fued, they may not get to pick the exact type of matches, but I'm pretty damn sure they get to say the words according to what all I've heard. Take The Miz for example, I'm sure he allready knew it was going to be a squash when the two finnally met, so he portrayed himself as the normal trash talking son of a bitch, who really couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag.

The Miz has it in him to become good, but he has no logical credibility. If he were to magically start beating up on John Cena, cheating or not, it would make John look weak which is something that they don't need to do. The Miz has to build logical credibility with the likes of MVP, Kofi, and Evan Bourne, then work his way up the ladder. You can't be thrown to the wolves inside the wrestling business, they need to give it time, and climb the ladder.

So whats is your point in this paragraph? I understand you feel a decline in the quality of feuds recently, but you admit this was a good feud. The main problem you have is the blow off match. With the knowledge of it being a squash you thought it should have been on RAW.

I think what really made this feud as you have stated was the fact that ever fan knew that Miz had no chance in hell of winning. He knew it, Cena knew it and the fans knew it. That was the beauty of 7-0. By throwing him up against Cena without any credibility behind his character achieved what Kingston or MVP could not. As for the blowoff match, it was exactly what the fans expected. A thrashing. They werent expecting a brutal fight to the finish, so while the IWC wants The Miz to be pushed, in a normal fans eyes, I would think it could be seen as an extremely productive feud.

The WWE is the big leauges, they should allready have a feel for the mic when they get in here. I can see a little hesitation on RAW for maybe a week or two, otherwise they should be fine as they've had practice on ECW in front of thousands of people, the show is taped so they can have redos. They should be able to cut a decent-great promo when they come on RAW allready.

But just because they can cut a promo doesn't mean they have the creativity to push the feud to the next level. You could be a great talker and have a ll the charisma in the world. But if you don't have the experience of knowing what ideas work and what doesn't, the odds of you creating a successful storyline are pretty slim. Its not like Jericho was a new superstar that debuted in late 2007.

Personal things in a fued is needed to spark a fued, and keep the fued going for about a month or two, but it can only go so far. I punch your wife, you beat me up, what the fuck? If someone punches my wife, I'm not going to stop at beating them up, I'll get my gun and it'll be over. This goes back to the Logic, a fued must have.

I actually laughed at the gun comment. The logic statement is true and I'll come to the idea of one upmanship in terms of personal feuds when I discuss the Cena vs Big Show feud.

Once this happens with the personal issues, then it comes time for the one-upsmanship, what am I going to do to get back at them for beating me to a bloody pulp backstage? Going back to logic, obviously they can't kill someone onstage for beating them up, this brings us to One-upsmanship, get them back in the sneakiest way possible, as a heel. As a face, call them out in the middle of the ring, when they get out there, talk down to them, try and smack them, that is, if its just one man. If its a group like Legacy, call your buddies, you're a face, you're friendly, obviously you're going to have friends backstage ready to whoop up on someone. I always hated the whole 1v3 as, it makes the 3 looks way too weak without one another, logically in a fight I'm going to have 3-4 buddies backing me up ready to stop the fight, if I'm getting my ass beat, same goes for wrestling really.

Actually you know what. Im going to discuss it now and not wait for Cena vs Big Show. The important thing for the one upsmanship in order to push a feud further is that usually, only the face works cleanly. The face will challenge the heel smackdab in the middle of the ring. However the heel works in different ways. The heel will always go for sneakier, dirtier tactics. It is the heel (unless you invade someones house with a sledgehammer) that attacks personal issues.

The fact that a heel keeps cheating to win, or keeps escaping the faces grasp is a better booster for a feud I believe. It always, unless a face vs face battle, should be an imbalance in power. If a heel and face simply trade victories back and forth, no interest is forthcoming. I believe if a heel continues to dominate the face, only for the face to finally succeed, you have a good feud.

Herein lies the problem with Big show vs Cena. Just awful. Sure, Big Show would dominate Cena on Raw and to an extent Backlash, but when Judgement Day rolled around, Cena won. What the hell? The face finally beating his arch enemy in a huge effort should be at the end, in a blowoff match. But they continued the feud. And Cena kept getting dominated, but winning on PPV. How is that interesting?The fact that there was one upsmanship didnt matter, because the opponents were balanced, the heel not dominating enough, thus i feel, a boring feud.

I don't really get what you're getting at with this statement.

I was simply pointing out the effectiveness of personal issues in pushing forward a feud.

Its still not impossible for them to carry a fued for nearly a year, as Hbk/Jericho did it, and Cena/Edge carried a fued for nearly 3 years...Hardy/Edge has been going on for months now. Its not impossible to carry a fued for a very long time, in fact I'd call it easy, with the all aspects I've drawn out in the thread.

Hardy and Edge was over after the 3 hour Raw. Cena and Edge didnt fight exclusively for 3 years and Y2J/HBK was a special case, being an excellent feud. And even they didnt fight for the first months of it. You are right in that it is not impossible. But without superior workers or ideas, it cannot work. Both of which are rare these days.

I expect a simple fued every now and then honestly. I'm happy with the wrestling product today, as I've defended it many times on this forum. This wasn't meant to come off as a complaint of any kind, its just true, the fued has really died. Midcard fueds hardly exsist, and main event fueds are quite boring these days.

I love the wrestling product today also. Midcard feuds have indeed died, and it is a shame. Im hoping Kingston/Big Show and Swagger/MVP will work something out, with Swagger even raising some personal issues. Yay, I do love that. Y2J/Mysterio was mid card I thought and that was quite good. Plus all of ECW is basically the new midcard, and they have some great matches.

It is wrestling, it should be able to happen inside the ring and still give us a cause and effect type reaction. The problem really with this fued was there wasn't a cause for us to care about the fued. Okay, John Cena got thrown through the batman signal at Backlash, it was expected we got a match, we had a reason to care about the match then. 4 months later, 4 matches later, we still have this fued, and well, John Cena allready took care of him 3 months ago, why do we give a shit what Big Shows doing now, as hes allready proven 3 months ago, 50% of John Cena is better than 100% of The Big Show. There was simply no reason for us to cause about this fued, thus causing no reaction from the fans other than bitching.

It is admirable that you believe a feud can be built solely on ring work, but I dont think thats the case these days. Vignettes have to be played, Interviews have to be had and father in laws have to be punted. Its the fact that John Cena vs Big Show in the ring has been overdone that is the problem.

You're right, we already know who is better. Cena won clean. I would even accept a rematch for show, because the submission match was different. But if the heel doesnt cheat to win or do something dirty and just loses, why do we need a rematch. To point out your word, LOGIC, why would a GM book the match again if he knows Big Show can't win?

I disagree, it was obvious at WrestleMania this fued wasn't over, and that it needed to go into Backlash. At Backlash they gave a great match, seeing Orton punt HHH taking him out until about 3 weeks ago. Thats when it should have ended, right there. Instead we saw Shane come out, alone, and take out Legacy, alone. Then once they got rid of him, they did the same with Batista, and then they did it again once Triple H returned. It would have made logical sense to have them all wait, and attack together, not like they did.

I think it definately could have ended at Mania, the face finally toppled the evil heel, after being handcuffed and subjected to watching his wife assaulted. The imbalance was complete. But Backlash was acceptable, and with the heel triumphing it would have been a fitting end. So we agree on this.

The logical sense never applies in wrestling, although I think it should sometimes. Sure you can say The Undertaker is dead, but use common sense in some feuds. Obviously if Orton and HHH hated each other that much they would keep fighting for the rest of their careers, because the one upsmanship would never be enough, and they wouldnt wait til the next show. But Logic must apply in most cases.

I hate people who say it shouldnt because its "fake". Just because its fake doesnt mean it shouldnt be believeable a tad.

Ehh, I think you misunderstood me. I just didn't like the fact that they put it on PPV. It should have been on RAW, Cena should have dealt with this 2 weeks ago when they were eye to eye, but they didn't which was stupid.

You dont understand me. What would have been the benefit of having it on free tv? From an owners perspective?

Its creatives job to realize after even the first match, or first promo that the competitors lack chemistry, and the fued should have been called off then and there. I only used this as an example, as, it was really hard to come up with credible names that lack chemistry, as any good wrestler can put on a good match with another good wrestler, just some more than others.

Its hard to call off Big Show throwing Cena through a searchlight. Once some angles happen they cant be stopped. It would be good if there was an undo button, and granted Big Show and Cena had faced each other many times before, however, I believe some wrestlers should be allowed to experiment and get their bearings in a feud before it being cancelled.

That was a very biased list, as it was only from the 90's/80's. Of course I can go on and on from the 00's, I'm just stating my opinion in the past year or two, the fued has died.

I was just checking you werent an attitude era elitist.

Never said there weren't but the guys back then really had a great sense of the art of the fued, compared to the wrestlers of today.

What do you suggest? They watch tapes documenting feuds? Or watch their peers and do the opposite?

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

Tbh a decent fued can start from anything. For example, Undertaker vs Angle in the Fall of 2000. How did that start? Kurt accidentally threw milk all over Taker's bike. FUED. What happened next? Angle kept getting involved in Taker's matches, not to actually screw Taker, but that's how it turned out each time. They had one match and then shortly after, Taker gets a title shot, doesn't win. Angle gets a title shot, does win. Angle then defends against Taker, cheats to retain. Then we have 6-man HIAC, which was really an amalgamation of 3 or 4 fueds at once:- Austin/HHH, Rock/Rikishi and Taker/Angle. Angle retains, and then he's on to defending against HHH etc, etc.

Kane v Jericho in 2000 was near enough the same thing, except they had a number of matches. How did that come about? Jericho spilled coffee on Kane and made a joke about getting burnt. Bunch of Kane run-ins later and we've got a full blown fued going on.

My point is, it's a piece of piss to create a fued. It doesn't need to be hinted at for months and months like people have suggested for Carlito/Primo or Edge/Jericho, it just happens that when it comes to tag teams breaking up it would make more sense for them to argue about losing all the time or making each other look bad, instead of losing 2 straight matches and then one just blasts the other. Splitting tag teams is stupid anyway. The GM should force them to split like Heyman did the APA, or they should wrestle to see who's better and then have one of them get super pissed at losing all the time and then betray his partner, ala Eddie/Rey.

Priceless turning on Randy? It doesn't make sense now that Ted forgave Orton for punting him. It doesn't make sense that these two guys follow Orton around when he does nothing for them. At least HHH instructed Flair to help Randy and Dave win all the time, where Orton couldn't care less about having a super-stable, he just wants to be the champ.

I said this in a different thread not too long ago, but WWE doesn't seem to realise that a decent fued can go on with very little wrestling going on between the fueding superstars. Y2J/HBK went on for 5 or 6 months and they literally only had about 3 matches in that time frame. Fued of the year without a doubt. Taker/Edge fueded technically for 2 whole years, from the moment Edge cashed in MITB on Taker in 'April 07 through to Edge getting thrown to hell at Summerslam '08. In that time frame, there was at least 2 maybe even 3 periods where the two didn't even square off for several months at a time.
HHH/Rock went on for nearly 3 years, again with long periods of time where they didn't wrestle each other, but they beat each other down, they screwed each other out of matches, someone else would get involved and Rock would beat them before going back to HHH, or there'd be some random title match with 8 guys and THEN they'd wrestle each other again etc etc etc.

Where was the oneupsmanship in the Show/Cena fued? There was plenty of it depending on your interpretation. Fued starts roughly just after NWO. Big Show is put in the WM title match for no reason except that he's Vickie's bit on the side. Cena gets no title rematch. Show-1, Cena-0. Cena blackmails Vickie and he gets put in the title match as well. Show-1, Cena-1. Cena wins at WM. Show -1, Cena -2. Show chokeslams Cena through the Bat-signal, costing him the World title. Show -2, Cena -2. Cena tries to recover from this, but is also being called out every week by Miz and can't let it slide. Everytime he comes out to answer Miz's challenge, Show jumps him and gets his ass kicked again. Show -3, Cena -2. (I know he beat him down more than once, but you don't get extra points for re-runs in the realm of Zur-En-Arrh), We get to JD and Show beats Cena down for several minutes only to lose anyway. Show -3, Cena -3. Show realises that Cena can't beat him with the STF and isn't exactly proficient in submission wrestling, so he challenges Cena to a submission match. Show -4, Cena -3. Cena beats him anyway, fued (thankfully ends) and in terms of oneupmanship on a weekly basis, they were pretty much even. In terms of wins/losses Show was Cena's bitch.