The Irish Whip - A High Spot?

[IrishCanadian25]

I know. It makes no sense. At least, not at first.

But as I continue to read "The Heels," my next unsung pro wrestling book, I continue to be enthralled with the discussion of old-school pro wrestling villany and psychology. In fact, any pro wrestler seeking to play a heel in today's product should be REQUIRED to read this book, cover to cover, twice.

For those who are unaware, Greg "The Hammer" Valentine had a father named Johnny Valentine, who is considered a legend and an all-time great heel. He's wrestled all the great names. Brazil, Thesz, Sammartino, Race, Inoki, Brisco, von Erich, O'Connor, Rodgers, etc. His back was broken and career ended in the same plane crash that nearly claimed the life of Ric Flair.

Johnny Valentine was known to use "The Brianbuster" as a finisher, but not the head-first suplex we know today - rather it was an elbow smash to the head. He used a "flying elbow" but it was not a top-rope flying elbow.

And in the book "The Heels," recently deceased legend Lanny Poffo explains how Valentine considered the Irish Whip a high spot.

"What was so great was that he didn't believe in high spots, because in a high spot, it's not realistic. If I were to get you into a fight, I wouldn't be throwing you against the ropes would I?"

Think about that. In a time today where maneuvers like "Starship Pain" are lauded for their visual impressiveness, the wrestlers of the golden age consider the simple Irish Whip to be a violation of realism and kayfabe. And it makes sense. If I am fighting a guy for real, do I want to create separation from him at the very moment I have him in my clutches?

What are your thoughts on Valentine's philosophy? Do you think we're better or worse off this way? After reading Valentine's ideals, do you also see the Irish Whip as a High Spot?

And for those of you interested in great Pro Wrestling reading, pick up Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame's "The Heels." It's brilliant.

 

[Ferbian]

Good question IC, very good!

Partially I could agree with Johnny Valentine's ideals about the Irish Whip, it wouldn't make sense in a real fight, We would never see it done in a Boxing fight (because well there's no real lock ups, but still, it wouldn't make sense)
And it would definatly create the seperation that the opponent would need to strike back at you and retaliate against you, perhaps even getting the upper hand.
But in those ways there are numerous moves that wouldn't make any sense at all for WWE wrestlers to be making.
Many of the finishers of today is by far unrealistic and wouldn't make sense at all, such as the Pedigree, the time it takes to set up, the kick to the stomach that actually keeps the wrestler bend over "legitimatly" for so long.

But I really think that if todays wrestling, or wrestling in general had chosen to keep it realistic without any kind of moves left to the imagination, wrestling would've quickly have become somewhat of a down graded entertainment.
If you ask me, wrestling "needs" unrealistic moves (bending the word of needing, because certainly it could work without the unrealistic moves that would most definatly not be present in a real fight, but in the end, it would quickly grow boring in my opinion) because without that, all we would be watching is a straight forward fight, personally not being a fan of MMA, I wouldn't be interested in wrestling had it not been for the unrealistic moves that are presented.

So you answer your question IC, I don't think we're better off if we follow Valentine's philosophy, wrestling wouldn't be the same without some unrealism to it, I mean afterall, we got the thread discussing weak looking finishers, where NUMEROUS people (including me) has mentioned how weak R-Truths finisher on last weeks Smackdown looked.
If we followed Valentine's ways of wrestling, that thread would've exploded in my opinion.

And to answer your last question: No I don't think of the Irish Whip to be a high spot, not compared to the moves we're exposed to in todays wrestling.

 

[jmt225]

What are your thoughts on Valentine's philosophy? Do you think we're better or worse off this way?

It was better off for those days since people thought wrestling was real. People back then paid their hard earned money every time a wrestling show came to their town, and it was because they thought they were paying for a legitimate fight, between a legitimate good person and a legitimate scumbag. You had to do whatever you could to keep those people believing in what you were doing.

Today, however, everybody knows wrestling is fake, so now it's all about entertainment, not trying to convince people what's happening in the ring is real. And because of this, high spots are good for the sport, because it brings an 'Awe' to matches, that will make people want to pay to see it again when the show comes back to town.

As far as which is better, I'll go with today's entertainment since we have MMA today. If I want to see a real fight, I'll tune into an MMA or Boxing event; simple as that. But if I want to watch something that's entertaining, with a little bit of comedy and drama mixed into what is a scripted reality show with great pretend fights, then I'll watch professional wrestling. Both are exciting and excellent, and it's great we have both options in today's World.

After reading Valentine's ideals, do you also see the Irish Whip as a High Spot?

Just because something looks fake doesn't mean it's a high spot. A fucking back body drop is fake looking, almost everything in the ring looks like it is. A body slam, suplex... these are not moves people would ever do in a legitimate fight.

I will say, however, that criss-crossing is absolutely ******ed and whoever came up with the concept should be shot. Now THAT'S fake. However, an Irish Whip I could buy if I suspend belief. Technically, professional wrestlers are supposed to be the strongest human beings on Earth, and it's believable to believe that if they throw you at some bouncy ropes, that you'll run into it and the force will draw you back to your opponent.

 

[D-Man]

I know. It makes no sense. At least, not at first.

Therein lies the problem with today's wrestling product.

How can wrestling promotions find a compromise between kayfabe, realism, and entertainment in pro-wrestling? Naturally, we all know that wrestling is "fake". But when we sit in our chairs and complain about how "fake" moves like Starship Pain are, do we ever stop to think about what it would be like if wrestling moves such as this no longer existed?

Once the curtain was pulled back and Vince McMahon stood behind his statements that wrestling was merely "sports entertainment", the business changed. Wrestlers realized that in the audience's eyes, a superstar's goal was no longer to "win" a match, but to put on an entertaining show, instead. Therefore, in-ring movesets became less "real" and more "entertaining" and "flashy."

As the business evolves further, the bar is going to continue to be raised higher and higher. Wrestlers are going to be distancing themselves further away from the styles that Johnny Valentine and Lanny Poffo were accustomed to use. And why? Because that style of wrestling is antiquated, outdated, and not entertaining. Logic matters very little in today's style of professional wrestling. It's all about grabbing an audience's attention and selling tickets using any means necessary.

Now, I'll answer IC's questions.

#1 - What are your thoughts on Valentine's philosophy?
I feel that while it's very logical, it's also extremely boring to today's audience. Sure, it doesn't make sense to use an Irish Whip in a wrestling match, not to mention any type of pugilistic activities. But it reminds me of a ground/grappling match in MMA - Although it is very effective and logical to use this moveset in their arsenal, it puts the audience to sleep and tends to attract "boring" chants. This type of reaction destroys the wrestling product that we've presently come to know.

#2 - Do you think we're better or worse off this way?
As I stated above, if we switched back to Valentine's mentality of wrestling, we'd be in a MUCH worse position in the market. Once again, wrestling is not a real sport. It is a form of entertainment. In the subject of professional wrestling, realism sells, but only if paired with entertainment. Therefore, unless a professional wrestler's moveset looks real AND is entertaining to watch, it is guaranteed to turn the product into a failure. Valentine's mentality is mostly just realism without the entertainment.

#3 - After reading Valentine's ideals, do you also see the Irish Whip as a High Spot?
That all depends on the definition of a high-spot:

Highspot - a top-rope move, or a series of maneuvers perceived as dangerous.

It seems to me that an Irish whip is not defined as a highspot. But, definition aside, if Valentine said that it was an illogical move, I'd agree 100,000%. It really doesn't make any sense to throw a wrestler into the ropes during a matchup, and makes even less sense when a wrestler bounces off the ropes, runs back at their opponent, and takes a move from the opponent while being unable to defend themselves. But, this all goes hand in hand with the phrase "ring-psychology", which is defined as:

Psychology - the story of a match. It can be as simple as a wrestler going after someone's bad leg or trying to hit a move to which the wrestler knows they have a weakness.

A wrestler's job (besides entertaining the audience) is to bring as much realism to a fake product as they can. So, if we all suspend our disbelief which watching wrestling matches, none of the things that Johnny Valentine mentioned would ever really matter.

 

[Tastycles]

Before I begin, without wishing to sound like one of the pedants that e-mail the main site every five minutes, but Lanny Poffo isn't dead, his dad is. Lanny Poffo is The Genius.

Anyway, Irish whips. In Valentine's day, when wrestling was meant to be real, then realism was the most important aspect, because people were paying to see a fight. In the modern era, everyone knows its fake and MMA exists. The irish whip is a spot in the same way that everything in wrestling is a spot now, and the only reason that people watch it is for the spots.

Look at the matches considered the greatest of all time by contemporary fans, something like Savage vs Steamboat. In that match, you see men jump out of the ring several times, and jump off the top rope. What makes good wrestling isn't realism, it's believability, and there's a difference. If a match flows nicely, it can have as many spots as it wants, if its choppy people can't have their disbelief suspended and the enjoyment is sapped out of it. Is an irish whip a spot? Maybe. But without it, professional wrestling is reduced to MMA by numbers, and nobody wants to see that.