The idea of "wrestling" and "WWE"

[Hard Hit Prince]

Hey guys! I was thinking about this subject, primarily because I can't watch an Youtube clip without reading some silly comments. Most people say things like :"It's gay" or "that's fake man" or "I am not a kid anymore" and it pisses me of that WWE and Wrestling have that idea attached to them.

I am a big fan of wrestling and I find it really amazing how people can't see my point of view. I know it's fake, everybody above ten knows it's fake but I enjoy it for a whole bunch of reasons that I do find it difficult for people not to enjoy. Well, what I want to say is that the company really has bad publicity when it comes to "word-of-mouth" and I know that some of you guys are not a public wrestling fan, some of you mention it but there is no way some of your friends know that you discuss it vividly on an internet board.

So do you think that WWE, as a maximum Representative of wrestling can do anything to change this silly idea? People in the 90's knew that wrestling was fake, and still they enjoyed it as much as I did. I know they changed to TVPG, but that can't be the sole reason - the current product isn't really so different from the 2004/5 era. I mean, there is a lot of less blood and insults but the idea is the same. What would you do if you had WWE's global brand power and money to change that? Do you think that this idea/stereotype is slowly killing the product?

People can say what they want, but I would like to have more friends to talk about wrestling and to invite them over to my house to watch a PPV while having two or three beers. Go guys - discuss! (Sorry, if it was already done).

 

[The Butcher]

WWE doesn't see itself as a pro wrestling company. Over the course of Vincent K. McMahon's leadership, he's tried to shift his company into something more palatable to people who don't care for pro wrestling, rather than try to shift attitudes about pro wrestling. In fairness to Mr. McMahon, that was and continues to be the smarter and more profitable route.

Everyone who knows me knows that I'm a huge fan of professional wrestling. I have a small coterie of friends who also like it, but none to nearly the same degree as I do. Most people I know think it's stupid and lowbrow, though. Honestly, I understand their point of view to a point, especially from my friends who are big fans of legitimate sports. Legit sport has drama, storylines, and competition; so I can understand seeing an intentionally fixed sport as childish or a waste of time that could be spent being an amateur sabermetrician. Unlike many of them and most wrestling critics in general, I can get over myself. I can enjoy something that's patently absurd because I can suspend disbelief and just have fun with it.

If WWE could get more people on board with their product, change perceptions about sports entertainment, and encourage more discussion about their shows, I'm sure they would. It's not that easy, and it takes time. The Attitude Era and the Rock and Wrestling Era were exceptions to the rule, true "lightning caught in a bottle" situations. For the most part, wrestling is not for everyone. I like it that way personally. During periods where WWE tries to go for mass appeal, I find myself disliking the product. I'm not talking about the Attitude Era or Rock and Wrestling of course; like I said, those were special. I'm talking about the guest hosts and pandering nonsense of that sort. When WWE just puts on a solid wrestling show, I fall in love all over again.

I say take Kane's advice and "embrace the hate." People who are too good or too snooty for pro wrestling can enjoy being haughty. I'm going to enjoy being lighthearted and having fun. The last time I went to a show with friends, it was an indy show. The low profile and open interactivity was actually easier for them to accept than WWE's big top circus show. Fair enough. Would I enjoy having more people to go to shows with and watch televised wrestling with? Sure. It doesn't ruin my enjoyment in the least, though. Plus, posting on forums, for all its ridiculousness, is fun in its own right. If I knew more people to talk about wrestling with in real life, I probably wouldn't have started doing it. If the product dies, it won't go down without a fight. Just have fun, and when you read comments on YouTube, consider the source.

 

[newwaveknight]

All my friends know I'm an IWC smark. Hell, I take pride in it. I'm such a smug son-of-a-bitch that many times I will bring up the fact that I have sent multiple application to the WWE to be a writer for their shows.

Here's my argument tactic for my friends who drop the word "fake" at will when I bring up wrestling.

I ask:

1) What's your favorite movie?

2) Dude, those people didn't die in that movie. Don't you know it's fake?

3) When they bring up that it's meant to be portrayed as simply entertainment, I tell them that wrestling is meant to be taken the same way.

As for finding people to watch wrestling with, consider the people who you might watch it with:

1) People who just casually glance by it, and they won't share near the passion you do.

2) Mark who say they understand that it's fake, but deep down they really don't. They won't ever be able to watch it as analytically as you.

3) Attitude era marks who will ONLY watch the show for their favorite "nine-duhs" superstars, will quit watching when those Attitude era guys leave, and will ALWAYS view the show through nostalgia-tinted glasses.

4) A very diminutive demographic of people like us.

This is why I have no problem watching wrestling by myself, then bitching about it with you guys afterwards. I know that here, there are people who watch the shows in the same way that I do and nitpick it just as bad because they're just as passionate about it.

 

[Hard Hit Prince]

WWE doesn't see itself as a pro wrestling company. Over the course of Vincent K. McMahon's leadership, he's tried to shift his company into something more palatable to people who don't care for pro wrestling, rather than try to shift attitudes about pro wrestling. In fairness to Mr. McMahon, that was and continues to be the smarter and more profitable route.

Everyone who knows me knows that I'm a huge fan of professional wrestling. I have a small coterie of friends who also like it, but none to nearly the same degree as I do. Most people I know think it's stupid and lowbrow, though. Honestly, I understand their point of view to a point, especially from my friends who are big fans of legitimate sports. Legit sport has drama, storylines, and competition; so I can understand seeing an intentionally fixed sport as childish or a waste of time that could be spent being an amateur sabermetrician. Unlike many of them and most wrestling critics in general, I can get over myself. I can enjoy something that's patently absurd because I can suspend disbelief and just have fun with it.

If WWE could get more people on board with their product, change perceptions about sports entertainment, and encourage more discussion about their shows, I'm sure they would. It's not that easy, and it takes time. The Attitude Era and the Rock and Wrestling Era were exceptions to the rule, true "lightning caught in a bottle" situations. For the most part, wrestling is not for everyone. I like it that way personally. During periods where WWE tries to go for mass appeal, I find myself disliking the product. I'm not talking about the Attitude Era or Rock and Wrestling of course; like I said, those were special. I'm talking about the guest hosts and pandering nonsense of that sort. When WWE just puts on a solid wrestling show, I fall in love all over again.

I say take Kane's advice and "embrace the hate." People who are too good or too snooty for pro wrestling can enjoy being haughty. I'm going to enjoy being lighthearted and having fun. The last time I went to a show with friends, it was an indy show. The low profile and open interactivity was actually easier for them to accept than WWE's big top circus show. Fair enough. Would I enjoy having more people to go to shows with and watch televised wrestling with? Sure. It doesn't ruin my enjoyment in the least, though. Plus, posting on forums, for all its ridiculousness, is fun in its own right. If I knew more people to talk about wrestling with in real life, I probably wouldn't have started doing it. If the product dies, it won't go down without a fight. Just have fun, and when you read comments on YouTube, consider the source.

I can understand everything you just said, I really can but only as a fan perspective of the subject. Also, it doesn't matter what Vince McMahon wants to call it - people will always relate WWE to Wrestling, even though I know the selling point of WWE's product is sports entertainment. I think that this word is difficult to make people remember - it's weird, but when you talk about "The Sopranos" I indeed am expecting a tv series, but for some odd reason when people talk about WWE, non-fans call it "oh it's that wrestling crap".

As a company, is WWE failing to get the message to people that don't watch it? I mean, they are a global brand, they indeed are huge - like I'm from Portugal and I had a community of friends with about 50 people in a forum, so that will show you that IWC actually exists in countries where WWE doesn't tour anymore - but like I said, when I was younger it was easy to talk wrestling, nobody cared it was fake even though we all knew that. So what changed? I mean, WWE really has a bad public image, specially for their target market. I love wrestling, I can tell you all why I love it and you would understand but people, casual people will refuse to watch just because WWE gives that image of a Dora: The Explorer type of show and at the same time, portraying to be a fake sport.

This is a question, and they already did it, but would it be easy if WWE promoted their TV Shows (in their adds and stuff) like they were promoting a tv show w/ seasons and stuff, and embracing more the non-kayfabe thing for the casuals? Kids will always watch it, they will fall in love no matter what they say, it's the fighting aspect that thrives them, I know I was a kid, my brother is still a kid and that's probably a reason why Sheamus persona and look is really loved by kids. Also they are not gaining everything from telling people they are a sport, they are an art just like dancing and ballet so that's is actually one of the reasons WWE doesn't get as much revenue from the adverts as NBA, even though WWE can sometimes draw more viewers.

Those eras were special, I know that but the "boom" has to have reasons for that. People didn't wake and said: "Ima be a wrestling fan". Something was different and my take on is the word of mouth. People would generally talk about WWE as they talk about NBA - something like "Hey did you watch wrestling last night? Oh that mankind sure it's crazy" - what I want to say is that wrestling was an acceptable subject of conversation. Nowadays it's a thing to be ashamed of according to general people (I couldn't care less, I will watch it despite them).

 

[Cena's #1 In My Heart]

Perhaps if we want the product to be viewed as less fake... we should stop making it look so fake with the likes of John Cena being the top dog.

Perhaps we should put two guys in the ring who can make it look like their is a genuine back and forth fight going on. A chess match, trying to one up the other man and get the advantage. Rather than someone who plays the role of ragdoll and revived superhero consistently throughout the match.

Cena is "so tough and resilient" yet, as soon as his opponent starts hitting a little bit of offense, he is completely thrown off his game and can't do nothing but take more offense until it's time to hit his 5 moves.

I like watching guys like Daniel Bryan and CM Punk go from a wrist lock to a hammerlock while delivering elbows to the head and trying to fight in and out of each individual hold and each time your opponent even attempts to grab your arm you resist when your not worn down. You know... make it logical... when Cena wrestles there is just a cliff.. he goes from being Super Cena to Super Selling Cena in the drop of a dime.

What we are expected to believe from these wrestlers is a bit insulting sometimes. Being made to believe a guy with Ju Jitsu training and martial arts can't handle a guy like John Cena. I find it fucking insulting to so blatantly and poorly tell a different story than the truth.

 

[newwaveknight]

Perhaps if we want the product to be viewed as less fake... we should stop making it look so fake with the likes of John Cena being the top dog.

Perhaps we should put two guys in the ring who can make it look like their is a genuine back and forth fight going on. A chess match, trying to one up the other man and get the advantage. Rather than someone who plays the role of ragdoll and revived superhero consistently throughout the match.

Cena is "so tough and resilient" yet, as soon as his opponent starts hitting a little bit of offense, he is completely thrown off his game and can't do nothing but take more offense until it's time to hit his 5 moves.

I like watching guys like Daniel Bryan and CM Punk go from a wrist lock to a hammerlock while delivering elbows to the head and trying to fight in and out of each individual hold and each time your opponent even attempts to grab your arm you resist when your not worn down. You know... make it logical... when Cena wrestles there is just a cliff.. he goes from being Super Cena to Super Selling Cena in the drop of a dime.

What we are expected to believe from these wrestlers is a bit insulting sometimes. Being made to believe a guy with Ju Jitsu training and martial arts can't handle a guy like John Cena. I find it fucking insulting to so blatantly and poorly tell a different story than the truth.

Here is the problem with trying to make it seem "real".

First of all, are you talking about "real" as in fighting, or "real as in wrestling?

If you want the "fighting" to look real, then it would make sense that a guy with as much muscle as Cena would win fights. Not to mention, you'd eliminate a lot of wrestling. Seriously, have you ever been in a real fight and tried to pull off a submission hold or suplex?

If you want more "wrestling" to be real, then you'll eliminate most of your brawling, as you can't drop-kick anyone in an actual wrestling match.

Not to mention, if you want a more realistic show, you'll have to lose the drama. Have you ever heard anyone in any other sport cut a promo against another athlete mid-game?

 

[ABMorales787]

We live in an era where "SWAG" isn't related to homosexuality and men wear jeans that can cut off your circulation. Every song on the radio is a "party anthem" and people bitch about Lebron James because he's good. Nothing makes sense these days. WWE is armed with the most devoted and selfless performer to grace planet Earth in John Cena while TNA has reached an international scale without being messed with by politics. But somehow wrestling is in the down low.

I believe it has more to do with the people of this era than wrestling itself. How different is WWE from it's late 80's era nowadays? How different is TNA from '96-'97 WCW? Both companies are in a sense emulating a very successful era from past generations. But that has yet to put either company in the mainstream of pop culture. Nope, that's reserved for Justin Beiber, the Paula Deen scandal, and whatever the fuck the Kardashians are up to. 10 years ago, we wrestling fans were a majority but the roles are reversed today. Those little kids that drooled over Britney Spears, N'Sync and whatever teen Disney hands a mic to dominate the world while the wrestling fans from yesteryear had to sit through 2003. That can be very discouraging.

 

[The Butcher]

I can understand everything you just said, I really can but only as a fan perspective of the subject. Also, it doesn't matter what Vince McMahon wants to call it - people will always relate WWE to Wrestling, even though I know the selling point of WWE's product is sports entertainment. I think that this word is difficult to make people remember - it's weird, but when you talk about "The Sopranos" I indeed am expecting a tv series, but for some odd reason when people talk about WWE, non-fans call it "oh it's that wrestling crap".

As a company, is WWE failing to get the message to people that don't watch it? I mean, they are a global brand, they indeed are huge - like I'm from Portugal and I had a community of friends with about 50 people in a forum, so that will show you that IWC actually exists in countries where WWE doesn't tour anymore - but like I said, when I was younger it was easy to talk wrestling, nobody cared it was fake even though we all knew that. So what changed? I mean, WWE really has a bad public image, specially for their target market. I love wrestling, I can tell you all why I love it and you would understand but people, casual people will refuse to watch just because WWE gives that image of a Dora: The Explorer type of show and at the same time, portraying to be a fake sport.

This is a question, and they already did it, but would it be easy if WWE promoted their TV Shows (in their adds and stuff) like they were promoting a tv show w/ seasons and stuff, and embracing more the non-kayfabe thing for the casuals? Kids will always watch it, they will fall in love no matter what they say, it's the fighting aspect that thrives them, I know I was a kid, my brother is still a kid and that's probably a reason why Sheamus persona and look is really loved by kids. Also they are not gaining everything from telling people they are a sport, they are an art just like dancing and ballet so that's is actually one of the reasons WWE doesn't get as much revenue from the adverts as NBA, even though WWE can sometimes draw more viewers.

Those eras were special, I know that but the "boom" has to have reasons for that. People didn't wake and said: "Ima be a wrestling fan". Something was different and my take on is the word of mouth. People would generally talk about WWE as they talk about NBA - something like "Hey did you watch wrestling last night? Oh that mankind sure it's crazy" - what I want to say is that wrestling was an acceptable subject of conversation. Nowadays it's a thing to be ashamed of according to general people (I couldn't care less, I will watch it despite them).

Pro wrestling was, is, and will always be a niche product. There are two notable exceptions that account for a small fraction of sport's history. We're in that niche. Most everyone else isn't, save for the casual, occasional viewers.

WWE isn't failing to get its message across; most people just don't want to hear it. Word of mouth can generate temporary boosts in notoriety and popularity, but WWE isn't a movie or TV show where good word of mouth will carry it for its entire run. There's no way it could-- WWE is year 'round every year. It's asking way too much to expect it to maintain mainstream popularity all the time. Sports and television shows have seasons, therefore fans miss them when they're away. There's no longing for WWE, and most fans have taken hiatuses at some point or another just to catch a breather.

As for people mocking it, hey, own it. I've been watching wrestling for 25 years, and I call it "fake" all the time. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy it or appreciate the athletes and staff that make it happen; I am just willing to acknowledge that one of my favorite diversions is, well, fake. We can dress it up, make ourselves feel good by using more favorable terms, but all it is is people pretending to fight. It's silly. That doesn't mean it isn't quality entertainment, but I think that anybody who is being honest with his or herself would admit that it's absurd. Embrace that. Laugh with it and at it.

Non-fans are entitled to their ignorance and/or snobbishness. As far as I'm concerned it's their loss. Likewise, fans who hide or are in some way ashamed of being a fan are entitled to their meekness. Things are called "guilty pleasures" for a reason. Not everybody is comfortable admitting they watch it, nor is everybody around people to whom they'd feel comfortable admitting they watch it. Clearly guys like you and I could give a damn, but we're us and they're them. Everyone is different and expresses (or doesn't express) their fandom in their own way.

Like I said last time, I like the fact that wrestling isn't for everybody. Trying to please everyone tends to end up pleasing no one at all. As much as I think that some wrestling fans are a little delusional, fanatical, or just plain weird, I am happy to be a member of the wrestling fanbase. We've got a diverse club that spans the globe, and when you run into another member you've instantly got something in common that not just anybody can share in. Being worried about how big that club is is a telltale sign of an inferiority complex. Squash that in your mind, and realize that you know something that most people don't and are a part of something that most people will never be.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Can't be done. Since it was ultimately revealed many, many decades ago that pro wrestling has choreographed endings, it's always going to be viewed as kind of tongue in cheek by a lot of people who aren't fans.

When I look at pro wrestling, generally speaking, I sort of see it as one of, if not the first, reality show. As we all know, reality shows have taken over television airwaves since the very early 2000s with the marketing aspect of the whole concept showing real people going about their lives. That's all well and good but, no matter what, there are a LOT of things on "reality" television that are every bit as scripted or set up as anything you'd see on a traditional television show. For instance, the people who star in the show often exaggerate aspects of their own personality for one reason or another because producers of the show feel it's good television. How many reality shows have you seen or read about in which some people are portrayed in a positive light? How many are portrayed in personal moments to generate sympathy? How many are world class assholes that you love to hate? Again, just like with traditional television shows; a good portion of it is scripted and designed to hook an audience into who these people are. All in all, pro wrestling is no different. Quite often, the wrestlers exaggerate aspects of their own personality or even portray themselves as being radically different from who they are while they're away from the cameras for the sake of generating interesting television.

People like watching a spectacle, they always have. The various gladiatorial games held throughout the Roman Empire, for instance, was exactly that. It was a spectacle designed for the entertainment of the masses. Of course, the violence was all too real but how these contests were showcased, who or what these pit fighters were put against, the weaponry they used, how they were hyped by those in charge of the games, etc. was all designed to be a spectacle. Take out the intent to cause grievous bodily harm or death out of it, and you have exactly what pro wrestling events are all about. As with the gladiatorial competitions, some wrestling events are better than others just as some wrestlers are more popular and/or more skilled than others.

Even though pro wrestling won't really be accepted in the minds of a lot of people, many of those people have changed their view on certain aspects of wrestling. For instance, we've all heard the "it's all fake" or "none of that hurts" crap from a lotta people over the years. Over the course of the last 15 years or so, through various media outlets, many people have realized that's a highly outdated and inaccurate point of view. There have been well known documentaries shown on television and movie theaters fully showing the kinds of physical trauma pro wrestlers have to endure. People have discovered that the wrestling ring isn't like falling on a cushy mattress, that having a 250 pound man jumping 12 feet into the air & landing on top of you is going to hurt, that being hit across the back with a metal folding chair doesn't feel good, etc.

We've all seen or read reports in the news about pro wrestlers dying at young ages, quite often due to drug abuse that's come about while trying to cope with the wear & tear wrestling injuries can cause. The story of Chris Benoit gained international coverage and put pro wrestling as a whole under a very uncomfortable microscope. Not only did it reveal the general negligence wrestling companies had towards their talent, but it exposed a lot of people to the kinds of genuine trauma wrestlers endure for the first time. The outcomes are staged and so is much of the violence, but that doesn't prevent it from hurting.

I don't think a lot of people see wrestlers as clowns because of what's been revealed and discovered, especially over the course of the last 7 or 8 years when it comes to what they have to endure. But the fact that it's generally designed to be an act masquerading as a sport will always cause a lot of people to not take it very seriously.

 

[Cena's #1 In My Heart]

If you want to look at it like the first reality show. I hear you.

Sometimes I feel like I'm watching employees compete for a raise .

That ain't fake. Employee A doesn't just want to lay down for Employee B so he can make the more money. That's why I watch wrestling. I want to see what Employee A will do to reach the top... maybe he'll sit down on a stage with a Stone Cold t-shirt and bitch out his bosses performance.