The Heels dont get enough recognition

[Kinsey144]

If i were to ask the question, who were the faces of WWE been since its mainstream era (ie. 80s onwards) everyone would be able to rattle off the same 6 names:

Hogan--->Hart + Michaels---> Austin + Rock--->Cena

Being the face of the WWE is invariably linked with the idea of carrying the WWE... for example, if i asked you who carried the WWE in the 80s, you would say Hogan, and you would be correct to say that.

My issue with this is that, as Piper famously said, Do you think they would've loved you so much, if they hadn't hated me?" and he is absolutely correct. Without the heel, the face is completely unable to be the poster boy and the face of the company. Think about it; what was Hogan without Andre, DiBiase and Roddy Piper. What was Bret Hart without Piper, Flair and Yokozuna. What was Austin without Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and Mr Mcmahon. What was the Rock without Triple H, Mankind and Kurt Angle. What was Cena without JBL, Orton or Edge.

So i guess this is really just me rambling and complaining that people don't remember and give the heels of the era's enough credit for their ability to make the Hogans/Austins/Cena's into the poster boys and legends that they are.

If you ask a casual fan, they won't know Piper, DiBiase, JBL, but these guys are arguably as important, if not more important than the face of their respective era's. And this really echoes the lack of credit that they get. These guys don't get all of the mainstream perks of the business like the others. Where was JBL's movies during his tenure as top heel?. Where's Piper's star on the walk of fame? Where is Ric Flair's reality TV series? Why are none of these heels the main event for the WWE hall of fame? (Andre is an exception, due to circumstances of his death).

Piper was one of the, if not the greatest on the mic ever, comfortably better than Hogan. Ted DiBiase was twice as good in the ring as Hogan. Flair was years ahead of Hart on the stick, and equally if not better in the ring. Kurt Angle was arguably the greatest ring technician we have ever seen, wrestling circles around the rock. And need i say anything about Cena that hasn't already been said 9999 times on this forum?


So with all this said, its really a complaint about the lack of respect and acknowledgement that these top heels get. They bust their ass, and enable faces to become legends. But aren't remembered on the same level as these guys; despite being every single bit as talented.

And that my friends, is an issue with the business

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I've got no clue as to what you're talking about. Who says heels don't get enough recognition? And, what exactly are you basing this on? All of those guys that you listed in your post are mega stars and legends that've been praised for their work as either a babyface or heel.

Shawn Michaels, Kevin Nash, Psycho Sid, Ric Flair, Yokozuna, Randy Orton, Edge, JBL, all have had great runs as heels. They've all been involved in huge feuds and, between them, have had a combined total of well over 50 World Championship runs. Shawn Michaels is a Hall of Famer as is Ric Flair. Kevin Nash, Orton, Edge, JBL & Yokozuna will probably all be at some point. Ted DiBiase is also a Hall of Famer as is Roddy Piper, both of whom are thought of as two of the greatest heels of all time.

If anything, it sounds to me as if you're trying to give heels all the credit while giving the faces little to none.

 

[Stein Lager]

Hmmm... We ALL already know this mate.. It's more of a statement not quite so much a discussion based question... That's just how a face/heel system works. The good guys always gonna get more recognition than the bad guy, coz he's THE GOOD GUY!! of course the faces would be nothing without the heels.. And most you mentioned DO get recognition for what the did as heels!!

Completly agree with jack-hammer

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

If you're trying to say "why aren't heels ever the face of the company" it's because cancer kids don't ask bad guys to come see them through make-a-wish. Sponsors don't want a guy who cheats to be promoting their company.

Heels get plenty of recognition by everyone else though. They just can't, from a business or any other logical perspective be the face of a company. Why the hell would they? Because heels are cool to the IWC? Great fuckin reason.

Also, it's not a one way street. It's not "the babyfaces are nothing without the heels". That makes about as much sense as saying "we wouldn't exist without our mothers" well no shit, but we also need fathers.

If a heel beats the shit out of an unlikeable guy, it doesn't matter. If a heel beats the shit out of a guy who can draw sympathy from the fans, then it matters.

In fact, I'd say that babyfaces are more underrated by the IWC than anyone. Most posters on here just look at MOOOVEZ. Which, heels do more moves in a match because a match where a babyface dominates has no drama. I really wish people on here had a higher appreciation of selling. Most of you guys think selling is a passive activity. That you just kinda lay there, take moves, wince, and hold a body part. That's not good selling. That's lazy. It's why you guys call chinlocks "rest holds". It's not a "rest hold" if it's being wrenched by the guy applying and sold by the guy taking. It's only a rest hold in the indies where they sit down and hug each other in between their gymnastic routines.

How do you know Angle is the greatest ring technician? Do you know how to do every move? Have you been in the ring with him so you know how loose/tight he is? That's so stupid of you to say that. Don't say "well, lol, he has a gold medal" because that makes about as much sense as saying Kobe Bryant would be a great actor in a basketball movie. Amateur wrestling is about being fast and instinctive. Pro wrestling is about slowing things down and thinking things through. We as non-wrestlers (and even most indy wrestlers who are trained by unqualified people) don't know who is actually a technician. We know who is booked as such and who is promoted as such. We don't actually know though.

The reason babyfaces get more love is because they see the media more. So what? Heels get a LOT more love from wrestling fans, especially the IWC. Don't act like Piper has it bad, he was in a ton of movies. Jesse Ventura was a fuckin governor. Andre was on TV shows (then again he wasn't really a heel, why do you think it was a big deal when he turned on Hogan? That was pretty much the only time in his career he was a monster heel, he was usually a gentle giant). Mr. McMahon, I'm pretty sure, does have a star on the hollywood walk of fame.

Not only that, but think about this. Why are these guys babyfaces and the face of the company? They have MASS APPEAL. The heels don't have the MASS APPEAL. They are great at what they do and surely wrestling wouldn't exist without them. You're really selling the babyfaces short though.

It's not like it's exclusive to wrestling either. Think about movies. For the most part, unless you're an amazing bad guy, you get more recognition as the hero. In comic books it's not called "Red Skull" it's called "Captain America". That's just how the world works. The rest of the world doesn't work like the IWC. The rest of the world doesn't think it's cool to like the bad guy or to be a contrarian.

 

[ratedrdestiny]

I don't agree with this completely. I know it's very rare but i think it's fare to say that Triple H was the face of the company for a good portion of the past decade as a heel.

 

[I_Am_Electro_Boy]

The heels get a lot of recognition. If they didn't the HOF would be full of faces but it's not. You say faces wouldn't be able to be the face of the company without the heel which is stupid because the heel wouldn't be able to be the heel of the company without the face either so that statement means nothing. To me you're just finding something to moan about.

 

[Mustang Sally]

The good guys always gonna get more recognition than the bad guy, coz he's THE GOOD GUY!!

It's important to distinguish between "recognition" and "popularity." When we mark out for wrestlers, we tend to forget that they're just regular people playing a role; few of them are as good or as bad as the characters they're portraying. I remember a post last Summer from a member of this forum who said he wanted Nexus gone from WWE because of the evil things they were doing.....and he was sure everyone felt the same as him. Of course, this was incorrect; the members of Nexus were playing bad guys and anyone who wanted them banished from WWE would be depriving the rest of us of a great program. This guy probably would have been shocked to hear anyone say that Nexus was popular.....but popular is exactly what they were.

While portraying a heel, Roddy Piper was just as popular as any face in WWE, it's just that he was booed rather than cheered; that's the way a heel knows he's appreciated by the fans. The OP said Piper and DiBiase would be unknown to the casual fan. Well, I go back far enough to remember their era and can say I recognized them as well as Hogan and Savage; it's just that I booed them while cheering the good guys......and that they were booed didn't cost the bad guys anything in recognition.

To presume a wrestler is unpopular because he's being loudly booed is to miss the entire point of what WWE is doing.

 

[ScruffDog]

I have to disagree with you. I think the top heel's get credit for the awesome jobs they did. Now do they get "Remembered on the same level as the Face's" No; but is Lex Luthor remembered on the same level as Superman? With out any villains, how super is Superman anyway? The good guy is always remembered in a better light than the bad guy.

So with all this said, its really a complaint about the lack of respect and acknowledgement that these top heels get

What lack of respect are you talking about? All of the Heel's you listed, with the exception of JBL, are in the Hall of Fame. On WWE.com when they make there Top 25 lists, they always praised these guys for there skills.

Now one thing you said is that these Heel's aren't in movies or TV. Piper was in a movie back in the 80's called "The Live", it's no "Thunder in Paradise" like Hogan did but it's something. Piper was even in the latest Green Lateran cartoon movie, and did TV guest spots on: Walker Texas Ranger, Highlander, Zorro, and many more.

Why are none of these heels the main event for the WWE hall of fame?

DiBiase was

I don't really know what your problem is, or what you'd like the WWE to do. The good guys are the "Face" in everything. When you watch a move or reading a book the main character, or face of the story, is a good guy. They do it this way so it's easy to tell who you should root for. The only thing you could do to get a heel to become the face of the company, is to turn them into a face.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Hogan? As in Hollywood Hogan?

Bret Hart, most successful WWF run? Anti American heel.

HBK? Have you heard of dx?

Austin and Rock? Both guys hopped the divide (usually to be the foil to the other).

Ric Flair, HHH, Randy Savage, Vader, JBL and Brock Lesnar were all heel leaders of their respective companies.

I think the problem here is that you have thought of two particular periods ('Hulkamania' and 'Cenation') were there was a degree of Hulk and John on one level and then Piper, DiBiase, Orton and Edge that step behind. You cannot underestimate the impacts of the heels listed here though, would Hulkamania worked if he'd faced off continually with the Warlord or Cena if he'd had Chis Masters? A 'casual' fan has heard of Piper and Edge, a non interested person won't and lets be honest the only names they will probably know are Hogan, Rock, Austin, Benoit and (possibly) Cena and they'll only know them from non wrestling related sources.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Wrestling's a 2 way street and over the years I would say, yeah heels get plenty of recognition and respect.

Frankly it sounds like you are a little held up in the Hogan era and the Cena era but outside of that I would say you look through history there are A LOT of heels both past and present who get plenty of recognition.

Lets look at the most recent example CM Punk. At this point Punk is getting more recognition and camera time than Cena, and Punk's A HEEL, that alone shows that they get plenty of recognition. HHH was the main guy in WWE for 3 years and that entire time he was in fact a heel, SCSA and Rock got tons of recognition as a heel, so did Foley, so did Flair, so did the horsemen and the Freebirds and those are just the names off the top of my head. Lastly, so did the nWo, a heel faction that completely ruled WCW television during its hottest period in the business.

Sure the faces are gonna get a little more recognition because they are the GOOD GUYS, the good guys (or the people who the audience is behind) are there to put the heels in place. I agree a face will never be as effective if he doesn't have a good heel, hell Dusty Rhodes would NEVER have become as big as he did if it wasn't for Flair, same with Sting, but that doesn't mean Dusty and Sting didn't do their part as well.

At the time of this Flair was the perennial NWA champ and the main attraction and draw during that time, the Freebirds were the same. I know the Von Erichs were depicted as the draws but if the audience shows up and leaves with the Freebirds who is the real draw?

I admit that thought has some merit but I certainly think great heels will always get the recognition they deserve. Maybe the heels don't win a lot of the big matches but that is how wrestling is by design because no matter if the heel is the draw or not, people always pay to see the faces beat up the heels, that's how it is.

Piper, Flair, Punk, Jericho, HBK, HHH and many, many others have gotten plenty of recognition as heels and frankly I don't even know why you would think otherwise.

 

[Twanfusco]

I dont think you'll find anyone who agrees with you OP. I dont know if you just were thinking up things to start a thread on and found yourself at the very basics of wrestling; good vs evil. If thats the case then im afraid you've sorely missed the point of wrestling storylines and in a way you've missed you're own point. Faces get recognition for being the FACE of the company simply because wrestling at its core works when its simple good vs bad (take note TNA ). And so the most popular superstars in the company's history are the good guys who finally overcome all odds to get one over on the bad guys, such is life.

If you, however are suggesting that the guys who played heels dont get enough recognition as workers on a real-life basis then you couldn't be any further from the truth and to make such a statement on an internet wrestling forum, where those guys sometimes get TOO much glory, is not without its irony.

Appreciate the effort at creating discussions though, you've gotten two pages of people who disagree with you so you achieved something!

 

[Kinsey144]

TOO ALL, please read my edit at the end of the OP

didnt realise you couldn't edit

Hogan? As in Hollywood Hogan?
I think the problem here is that you have thought of two particular periods ('Hulkamania' and 'Cenation') were there was a degree of Hulk and John on one level and then Piper, DiBiase, Orton and Edge that step behind.

This is partly my point that i was trying to make. As you said during these two eras its
----Hogan/Cena-----
--------------------
--------------------
----Other Heels----

This makes people look back on these eras thinking only of these two.

Thats not my main point though. My main thing i was trying to put across is that these heels work just as hard as the faces, if not harder. They have equal amounts of matches and promos and travelling to do, but they also have to be creative with making new ways to draw heat. All the face has go out, go over the heel, and he will be loved for it. My real issue is AT THE TIME they aren't regarded in the same light except by the IWC. They aren't appreciated by the mainstream for how great of a talent they are. Whilst Hogan gets heralded as the icon and the hero; gaining fortune and fame from TV and media, aswell as wrestling; DiBiase is left to be looked at as that guy who Hogan beat. It is only untill they retire that they are their greatness and raw skill is admitted to the public, and they are shown to be the talented individuals that they are; not Hogan fodder.

 

[ScruffDog]

This is partly my point that i was trying to make. As you said during these two eras its
----Hogan/Cena-----
--------------------
--------------------
----Other Heels----

This makes people look back on these eras thinking only of these two.

Not true. If I ask you, "Tell me what you remember about the Hogan era" you would probable say something like, Hogan beating Andre and Wrestlmania. Look, I see a heels name in that statement.

Whilst Hogan gets heralded as the icon and the hero; gaining fortune and fame from TV and media, aswell as wrestling; DiBiase is left to be looked at as that guy who Hogan beat. It is only untill they retire that they are their greatness and raw skill is admitted to the public, and they are shown to be the talented individuals that they are; not Hogan fodder.

So are you saying the only way are wrestler can be shown as a talented individual is if they gain "fortune and fame from TV and media, as well as wrestling"? Really?

And "only after they retire their greatness and raw skill is admitted to the public."

What about the MIZ? Lately he's been doing just as much, if not more, special guest appearances than even Cena.

Jericho's been touring with his band and going on Dancing with the Stars. Is this not showing his greatness and raw skill?

 

[nWo2]

Heels don't get enough credit!

Some 80's & early 90's heels were better than most heels today. They don't get credit becuz they never won the belt... that goes for Rick Rude, Ted Dibiase & Mr. Perfect.

Shawn Michaels was a great heel, because even when he's a face I still generally HATE him for his early heel work vs Razor Ramon, Marty Jeanetty, Diesel & Bret Hart specifically. But he gets his credit because after his face turn he won the championship... in fact how many times was he the heel WWE champion?

The one heel that needs to be recognized for his exceptional work in the ring, mic and feuds is undoubtedly Owen Hart