The best as a WRESTLER.

[Cereal Killer]

I recently read a thread about who has the best TNA mic skills. Now things like mic skills, gimmick and charisma are what wrestlers today have. There is also in ring performance which includes things like wrestling, moments, high spots, getting the crowd pumped up etc. But the main factor in there is WRESTLING.

Now who is the best WRESTLER of all time. By wrestling, I mean wrestling itself. The best today is Kurt Angle but of all time...? Angle, Bret, Flair, Thesz, Rodgers, Frank Gotch, George Thragos? Which one? It doesn't even have to be one of these guys.

The reason I am asking is because today, fans want the other things I mentioned above, but looking at the main thing a Superstar needs, Wrestling, who is the best of all time?

If you vote, please post why you voted that person.

Discuss....

 

[Mustang Sally]

By wrestling, I mean wrestling itself.

That statement invites different interpretations of what "wrestling itself" is.

I've seen the first three guys and could make a case for any of them as "best wrestler." Angle is probably the best at move-for-move technical excellence. Flair might be the best wrestler as an entertainer; a guy who excited a lot of people with his ring work and personality. Bret Hart could be considered the best for grind-it-out, tough guy ring wrestling, plus generating tons of excitement with the feuds he was involved with.

The other four are hard to rate since none of us has ever seen them in the ring. Is it possible they were better wrestlers than any of the modern three? Sure.

Going by my own definition of "best," I picked Bret.

 

[Cereal Killer]

That statement invites different interpretations of what "wrestling itself" is.

I've seen the first three guys and could make a case for any of them as "best wrestler." Angle is probably the best at move-for-move technical excellence. Flair might be the best wrestler as an entertainer; a guy who excited a lot of people with his ring work and personality. Bret Hart could be considered the best for grind-it-out, tough guy ring wrestling, plus generating tons of excitement with the feuds he was involved with.

The other four are hard to rate since none of us has ever seen them in the ring. Is it possible they were better wrestlers than any of the modern three? Sure.

Going by my own definition of "best," I picked Bret.

Fair enough but "flair best wrestler as an ENTERTAINER" and "hart as a tough guy and exiting in the feuds he was in" count as in ring performance as a whole.

 

[asiatic7]

That statement invites different interpretations of what "wrestling itself" is.

I've seen the first three guys and could make a case for any of them as "best wrestler." Angle is probably the best at move-for-move technical excellence. Flair might be the best wrestler as an entertainer; a guy who excited a lot of people with his ring work and personality. Bret Hart could be considered the best for grind-it-out, tough guy ring wrestling, plus generating tons of excitement with the feuds he was involved with.

The other four are hard to rate since none of us has ever seen them in the ring. Is it possible they were better wrestlers than any of the modern three? Sure.

Going by my own definition of "best," I picked Bret.

A bit biased here but....I'm going with Bret Hart. Sure Angle is an Olympic Gold medalist, but if we are talking about pro wrestling, I have to agree with Sally. Bret was as crafty as they come. He always knew how to win against all odds. When Diesel was too big and strong, Bret played "possum", faked his fatigue and beat Big Daddy Cool with a small package. When Stone Cold proved too rough and rugged, Bret toughed it out and beat him at his own game. He out wrestled Mr. Perfect, he showed he can handle the speed of the 1-2-3 Kid in a classic title match. Basically, in any situation, Bret adapted and prevailed.

Like Mustang Sally said, no one ever saw Gotch, Thez or Rogers or any other wrestler from the Roosevelt Administration era.

I always held Bret to high regard. Outside of Owen Hart (who was more fluid and a graceful high flyer), Bret was who he claimed to be, The Best There Is Was and Ever Will Be...

 

[Cereal Killer]

A bit biased here but....I'm going with Bret Hart. Sure Angle is an Olympic Gold medalist, but if we are talking about pro wrestling, I have to agree with Sally. Bret was as crafty as they come. He always knew how to win against all odds. When Diesel was too big and strong, Bret played "possum", faked his fatigue and beat Big Daddy Cool with a small package. When Stone Cold proved too rough and rugged, Bret toughed it out and beat him at his own game. He out wrestled Mr. Perfect, he showed he can handle the speed of the 1-2-3 Kid in a classic title match. Basically, in any situation, Bret adapted and prevailed.

Like Mustang Sally said, no one ever saw Gotch, Thez or Rogers or any other wrestler from the Roosevelt Administration era.

I always held Bret to high regard. Outside of Owen Hart (who was more fluid and a graceful high flyer), Bret was who he claimed to be, The Best There Is Was and Ever Will Be...

People HAVE seen them wrestle. They are some of the most famous people from the pioneer era and tv era. People should actually know about those times as well, not hogans era onwards. Bret beat all those people you mentioned in the way he did but that was scripted you know. The only real point you have is that he out performed mr perfect. Also, him adapting is a factor that fits into in Ring performance, not wrestling skill. Prevailing, well It is fake just so you know .Appreciate you voting and posting but dude, you sound like a proper mark. No offence... Don't kill me.

 

[LascoX]

As much as I respect Hart and Angle the correct answer here is Loe Thesz. He held the NWA title for over 10 years and invented many of the holds used today. He was a true pioneer in the industry and a legit shooter who could handle any situation when the local tallent tried to swerve him and win the title. If your not familure with him look at his profile on Wikipedia and check out his resume.

 

[The Great King]

Since I don't know too much about Lou Thesz, I went with Kurt Angle. I have always thought that Angle was a slightly better technical wrestler than Bret Hart and Ric Flair.

 

[asiatic7]

People HAVE seen them wrestle. They are some of the most famous people from the pioneer era and tv era. People should actually know about those times as well, not hogans era onwards. Bret beat all those people you mentioned in the way he did but that was scripted you know. The only real point you have is that he out performed mr perfect. Also, him adapting is a factor that fits into in Ring performance, not wrestling skill. Prevailing, well It is fake just so you know .Appreciate you voting and posting but dude, you sound like a proper mark. No offence... Don't kill me.

Proper Mark...did you just invent that term? Anyway, how many times have you seen those old timers wrestle, not counting clips on youtube? The reality is, nobody is that old to have witnessed them. It's like those "boxing experts" (not counting the late Bert Sugar) who universally agree that Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter P4P. There is not enough video footage to make that claim. If you know of anywhere to see clips of those old wrestling greats, I would like to know if you have info.

I know finishes and results to matches are scripted. But that doesn't take away from the athleticism and performance of the wrestlers. If my comment makes me a "Proper Mark", then, so be it. It's a thread about wrestling dude, relax and don't take this shit so serious...have fun.

"IT'S STILL REAL TO ME DAMMIT!!!"-Proper Mark

 

[Cereal Killer]

Proper Mark...did you just invent that term? Anyway, how many times have you seen those old timers wrestle, not counting clips on youtube? The reality is, nobody is that old to have witnessed them. It's like those "boxing experts" (not counting the late Bert Sugar) who universally agree that Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter P4P. There is not enough video footage to make that claim. If you know of anywhere to see clips of those old wrestling greats, I would like to know if you have info.

I know finishes and results to matches are scripted. But that doesn't take away from the athleticism and performance of the wrestlers. If my comment makes me a "Proper Mark", then, so be it. It's a thread about wrestling dude, relax and don't take this shit so serious...have fun.

"IT'S STILL REAL TO ME DAMMIT!!!"-Proper Mark

If you actually read my post, I was talking about wrestling not in ring performance!

There are still people who have seen the old guys wrestle and even they compare those legends to wrestlers like bret hart or kurt angle. That is why they are included in the poll, as far a clips go, from what I have seen on YouTube, they are pretty slick.

Dude, if it's "still real to you dammit", fine but don't take this stuff serious dude.

Oh and the people have already voted for kurt angle.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

If by "best", you mean as to who has the most skill & ability when it comes to Greco-Roman style wrestling and wrestling in and of itself in terms of a pure, 100% sport, then I have to go with Kurt Angle.

Wrestling as a "legit sport" and pro wrestling are generally two very different creatures. As far as "legit wrestling" as far as a sport, then I don't see how it couldn't be Kurt Angle because of the simple fact that he's won an Olympic gold medal.

In the world of sports where you have professional athletes like basketball, football & basebal players making tens of millions of dollars a year & haggling with owners & league officials, crooked promoters playing politics in boxing & contact sports while robbing it of its glory & hornor, winning an Olympic medal is probably the closest to a pure championship that one can win. You can't buy yourself to one, you can't threaten or politic your way to one. You can only win one by being among the very best in whatever sport you compete in. Winning an Olympic medal, especially a gold, is something that requires genuine ability to win and it an athlete's hype or charisma doesn't mean a damn.

Angle winning an Olympic gold medal in wrestling at the 1996 Summer Olympics is an unequaled feat in wrestling as far as a 100% legitimate sports achievement goes. Considering all the various other tournaments & awards he'd won prior to winning the Olympic gold medal and the ability he had to have in order to win it, I just can't go with anybody but Kurt Angle.

 

[jacdnwarrior]

I'm a fan of Bret's and always enjoyed his work. Never really saw the others so it's not fair to say yea or nay on them. I have seen Kurt Angle and I have to admit he was my choice. His whole life is wrestling, amateur first and now today professional. He made a career as an amateur and competed at the highest level and won gold medals for his country doing so. Then Angle comes into a different arena and does a convincing job in professional wrestling, it was an incredible achievement. As much as I'm a fan of Bret Hart's work, and life I give an edge to Angle.

 

[HBsam31]

First things first, we need to understand that Kurt not only won a gold medal, but he won that gold medal with a broken freakin neck. That being said if we are talking about wrestling as in a pure sport like Jack Hammer said then it has to be Kurt Angle. In that case Brock Lesner should be on that list to. Brock's wrestling ability seems to be put into question on these forums a lot, and he was an All American in college, and if I am not mistaken an NCAA champion. You have to be pretty damn good to be a National Champion in anything. Shelton Benjamin was pretty high up in the ranks in amateur college wrestling as well. If we are talking about Pro Wrestling here then I can see how people would say Bret hart. He had a counter for everything inside the ring, and had some really crafty ways to beat an opponent. I am a bit biased towards Kurt I must admit. I am from Pittsburgh, and followed him from the Olympics all the way through his career to today.

 

[HBKistheHOF]

It is a real toss up for me. While there are legends like Lou Thesz who had amazing wrestling minds & created the holds & skills used today, there are wrestlers like Ric Flair who made them more entertaining, or Bret Hart who made the moves more technically sound, or Owen Hart who made them more fluid & smooth, or Kurt Angle who made them more aggressive & impactful.

It's really a difficult one but I gotta go with Kurt Angle. He is the most complete wrestler in my eyes. He has a great wrestling mind, great ameatur & professional technique, great execution, & his intensity, aggression, & passion in the ring are almost unmatched.

Not to mention, while I know this does not apply to this criteria, Angle was one of very few gifted grapplers & ameatur wrestlers to become a great "Sports Entertainer" & compelling character on television.

 

[asiatic7]

This thread seems to be geared towards, who is the best amateur wrestler. If we are talking about PRO WRESTLING, you have to factor in the entertainment and ring psycology as well. It all meshes together. While me and the OP seem to be at a disagreement, and thats ok, he made a point to correct my answer for me and said that my answer is wrong because I chose Bret Hart because all of his finishes were pre-determined....It's Pro Wrestling...that's how things are done. So my question is, by wrestler, do you mean Pro or Ameteur?

If we are judging them on amateur style, then of course the logical answer is Kurt Angle.

But...If we are talking about Pro Wrestling (wrestling, pshycology, performance, story telling) I have to say Bret Hart.

 

[lowandmighty]

Hulk Hogan is the best wrestler of all time, hands down. I know what you meant by "wrester" too and its still Hulk Hogan.

People might think thats a stupid answer but its not. Hogan could wrestle his way well out of a paper bag and beyond, in his day if you put him against any of those names listed then Hogan would have ripped them apart.

Hogan was trained by the stiffest wrestling trainer of all time, he had to learn how to win or have all your legs and arms ripped off. He never displayed his skills because it simply wasn't his character. Ever. Those matches in japan weren't even close to what Hogan could do either. You'll notice in Hogans matches, he never lets his opponents get away with anything amazing either, and there's a reason for that.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Judging "wrestling" ability in professional wrestling is akin to judging the taste of a raw tomato after it has been put in marinara sauce. I agree with the Hogan guy. I don't know how to define what Hogan was doing that would satiate the OP's needs in this thread but Hogan was the best professional wrestler I know of.

 

[LascoX]

Hulk Hogan is the best wrestler of all time, hands down. I know what you meant by "wrester" too and its still Hulk Hogan.

People might think thats a stupid answer but its not. Hogan could wrestle his way well out of a paper bag and beyond, in his day if you put him against any of those names listed then Hogan would have ripped them apart.

Hogan was trained by the stiffest wrestling trainer of all time, he had to learn how to win or have all your legs and arms ripped off. He never displayed his skills because it simply wasn't his character. Ever. Those matches in japan weren't even close to what Hogan could do either. You'll notice in Hogans matches, he never lets his opponents get away with anything amazing either, and there's a reason for that.

I'm sorry , but LMFAO. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and its as valid as anybody else, we all have one. I will give you that over the years Hogan did indeed put more butts in the seats then anyone and carried the industry to a new level of popularity in WWE/WWF land but when I read your post I had visions of you as a little Hulkster dressed up in yellow and red idolizing and immitating the great Hulk. Personally I found most of Hogans matches as predictable and routine. I was never a big fan of his but I do respect his contrabution to the industry we all love. I think the legit shooters in the industry would have given him a harder time the you would imagine and it would be Hulk tapping out but thats my opinion. Like I said we all have one. I would add though that he never let his opponants get away with anything amazing because he was the top draw and wasn't going to let more tallented people shine brighter then him.

 

[The Boss]

The best? HOLLYWOOD HULK HOGAN. No question. Look at his matches in Japan, WWE, WCW. Look at how he changes his style to meet the demands of the fans. While others might have been better athletes or new more moves, they all wrestled exactly the same no matter where they went. Some even wrestled the same whether they were face or heal. HOLLYWOOD HULK HOGAN showed that he was able to adapt to the audience, making him much more versatile.

 

[Hard Hit Prince]

There is one performer that people ALWAYS forget, I mean rarely we remember this genius when we speak about the best wrestler of all time. People go out and say Chris Benoit, Kurt Angle and all these great amateur greco-roman style wrestlers, but there is one in my mind that stands out - Ricky Steamboat.

Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat is absolutely one of the most underrated performers of all time. He was pure gold, his in-ring performance always delivered no matter the opponent, and in fact he was an exciting wrestler to watch because he would merge mat wrestling with a good highflying at the right moment. His classic with Randy Macho Man Savage was one proof, but there are other great and fantastic matches with guys like Ric Flair, Jake Roberts, Lex Luger, Steve Austin... man I get chills when I remember the good ol'days, that Steel Cage Tag Team Match in the mid-atlantic promotion is still somewhere in YouTube, so if you never saw it, you must absolutely do it.

It will also come to personal taste of course, some may very well like that slow paced match given by most submission specialists. Right now, the best performer for me as to be Randy Orton. I know that for most this can and will be a stupid comment, but I can't literally find another guy with his wrestling-skills completely perfect for their character. The methodical movements, the best selling in WWE (sorry Ziggler fans, I love Ziggler but he does not sell perfectly, he oversells), he remembers me a lot like Jake Roberts, he has the crowd in his hands whenever he's in the match, after that Hangman DDT that he usually delivers his face, his face tells the whole story and it's impossible not to react to that impact. It's just my personal thoughts of course

 

[Slash-LN]

I voted Angle. Talking from a pure technical wrestling stance Angle is the best.
As much as i hate Lesnar he definitely should be on the list.
Jack Swagger should maybe be on the list.
Shelton Benjamin should be on the list.

Basically any of these guys that were awesome NCAA wrestlers should be on there if you're talking about the actual wrestling part of things and ignoring the theatrics of a match.

 

[Brewski]

This thread seems to be geared towards, who is the best amateur wrestler. If we are talking about PRO WRESTLING, you have to factor in the entertainment and ring psycology as well.

The problem with these type of threads is the incredibly loose definition of what a "Wrestler", "In-ring performer", or "technician" is. If you look between the different threads the same wrestlers often pop up because everyone has a different idea of what the thread is asking.

The best WRESTLER to ever step into a professional wrestling ring is Kurt Angle. Based on purely factual evidence and awards, he's the best. /thread.

If you want to talk about technical wrestlers then you can bring in Hart, Malenko, and my personal but controversial favorite: Chris Benoit.

Otherwise we can argue all day about which wrestler looked the most real at fake wrestling.

 

[midgensa]

I think that if we are going after this on a "wrestling as a sport" aspect and "technical" ability then it is not even close.

Kurt Angle won a GOLD MEDAL with a broken frickin neck. Ask him.

I mean ... all of these other guys are great "technicians" or whatever, but they didn't do the real thing. Hell, Brock Lesnar should probably be on this list if we are talking about people in the Pro Wrestling Industry and their ability to actually wrestle.

As far as "technical" wrestler in the ring ... it is an overrated term that is often thrown around by smarks in an attempt to make ourselves feel smarter than the average fan who just likes Cena's 5MoD. The truth is ... there really is no such thing as "technical" wrestling because everyone in the ring is acting and it all comes down to two guys working together.

I have watched many a Benoit vs. Hart match that was very entertaining ... but they were not anymore entertaining than John Cena vs. Rob Van Dam at One Night Stand. So, I definitely think "technical" is a little overrated, but I definitely enjoy it here and there.

In the end though ... nobody really puts on a wrestling clinic like Kurt Angle when he really wants to and when an opponent will let him throw him around like a limp fish.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Really depends on your definition of "Wrestler" - simply are we looking just at a guy's ability to do a wide variety of moves, take a wide variety of falls, and be able to sell the legitimacy to the audience (unlike a lot of younger wrestlers who simply move from one spot to the next, never selling anything, and looking totally fake doing it). OR are we considering the athletic side along with the entertainment side (promos, crowd reactions, etc). Do we ignore drawing ability and popularity also ?

Since the 1970s which is when I started watching I think the Steamboat and Benoit excelled at the physical side, many different maneauvers, ability to take a variety of falls, always sold the believability of pain, exhaustion, etc to the audience, they made it look real. Steamboat had a good career but he always comes up short in conversations about "the best" all time against guys like Flair & HBK due to his relatively stable, safe, personna. He wasnt as entertaining on skits or promos but he could deliver a great match. Likewise Benoit was always criticized for his below average mic skills and supposed lack of charisma. His athleticism and abilty to sell in the ring helped him overcome a lot of that but as a complete package he always looked a step behind guys like HHH, HBK, Jericho, etc. Jericho has always had a very good combination of promotability outside the ring and ability within but his career has never reached the heights of say Flair or The Rock. Brett Hart was tremendous in the ring, and had a successful run in the 90s in both WWE & WCW, but he was never the equal of Flair & HBK on the mic for entertainment value although they both could come close to him in the ring. In terms of drawing power and longevity HBK falls short vs Flair, but Hogan was a bigger star than all of them but probably the least talented (although under rated) in the ring of anyone mentioned in this post. Austin was a huge star, he also could deliver great matches along with his mic work...is he the best al time, maybe a step slower than Flair, Hart, or HBK in the ring but above them all to varying degrees in drawing power, better than Hogan in the ring by a wide margin but a veritable draw against him in star power, slightly better than Rock in the ring but equal or better on the mic ? Lets not shortchange Kurt Angle... he may have been better than all of them at selling and being believable with a wide degree of offense and ability to take falls in the ring and he was very entertaining on the mic, a major star but the equal of Hogan, Austin, or Flair or Rock, but very close, maybe equal or better than Hart in the ring but with a less resounding sesume (though he has a great resume). Where does Sting fit in ?

It's all too subjective. In the end people have personal favorites for different reasons, it's just too hard to judge.

 

[reeviint]

I'm going with Bret Hart. Sure Angle is an Olympic Gold medalist, but if we are talking about pro wrestling, I have to agree with Sally. Bret was as crafty as they come. He always knew how to win against all odds. When Diesel was too big and strong, Bret played "possum", faked his fatigue and beat Big Daddy Cool with a small package.

 

[anvilx8]

I'd definitley say Angle.. with Bret as a close 2nd!

I know it's said about many ppl "he can have a good match with anyone", but angle ACTUALLY could. And when you put him against another great wrestler - it'd turn into a classic. I only wish we could have seen Bret/Angle in their prime.