Talent or Friends.... What gets you to the top of WWE?

[mikde_]

For years we have witnessed highly talented wrestlers fail to get the recognition they probably deserved. Guys like Chris Jericho, He has had a amazing career so im not saying he was underutilized but he was never "THE MAN" so to speak even though he had all the credentials and attributes to make him the top guy. There has also been guys who get extremely hot with crowds and end up getting nowhere in particular, Guys like Paul Burchill who had a "Pirate" gimmick in the mid 00s that although was slightly ridiculous, it was over big time!...then he got released. Rumours about this persisted and the one that stood out was that he was getting bigger reactions than Bobby Lashley at the time and WWE were not prepared and didnt expect Paul to ever get the gimmick over so they sent him back to developmental...That leads me on to my next point....

Backstage Politics...We all know that in order to get anywhere in the working enviroment you have to kiss a little ass, Sad but true. For years we have heard the stories about HHH, Shawn Michaels, Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, Randy Orton ect all using their pull backstage to help maintain the spotlight.

So what im asking is......What determines if a "Superstar" is to be a long term player in the main event scene and what matters most...Your ability in the ring and on the mic or the friends you make backstage?

Granted it may be a little of both but lets discuss....

 

[DethMetal]

Interesting topic, my friend. I think that both talent and friends may have it's advantages. Look at Sheamus; he's workout buddies with Triple H, and he's World Heavyweight Champion. Then again, look at Punk; to my understanding, he's not really friends with the highers brass, and he's the longest reigning champion in the company right now. I thnk a lot of it has to deal with how marketable, as well as how people in the back think about you. Look at the Undertaker; he's the man backstage, what with the younger guys looking to him in the leader role, and he's one of the more talented and marketable guys the WWE has ever had. So, yeah. Friends definately have their benefits, but I think talent can get you just as far in the business., granted you don't step on anyone's toes and the fans really dig you.

 

[ccotreau1]

I agree with what Evanescent Deth said. I think it is a combination of talent and friends. To use the same 2 that ED used, Sheamus is buddies with HHH, and is World Heavyweight Champion, and I am sure even if he wasn't, he has the talent to be where he is and his look helps him. CM Punk, who is the polar opposite of Sheamus looks-wise, clearly has the talent to be one of the top guys of any organization, and doesn't have the relationship with the upper brass like Sheamus does, and look at where he is because of his talent

 

[enviousdominous]

This topic frustrates me, though I'm thankful that someone brought it up.

Here's what I understand of the pro-wrestling biz, if you first please the higher brass, you're granted the roles on tv where you will appear to be the more noble and talented individual. This idea frustrates me to no end because if it were true, it would mean that talent has NOTHING to do with whether or not you'll earn the faith of the WWE writing staff.

How talented was Mr. Kennedy? Pretty damn crisp and on the mark in the ring from my observances. He drops Randy Orton in a way that makes Randy upset and in the blink of an eye they sent Mr. Kennedy a pink slip.

John Cena kisses ass and laughs at Vince's fucking stupid jokes while wowing Steph with his rapping ability, so they debut him on Smackdown in a match where Kurt Angle puts him way the fuck over. To the marks this should automatically mean that John Cena is a bright young superstar who is destined to take over one day, but just like when they tried to force Rocky Maivia on us he wasn't getting over as well as they wanted him to. This is where most people would be forced into mid-card jobber hell or be slapped into an idiotic tag team (The B2 tag team was only a means of using up the last of Buchanan, so I don't count it against Cena), instead they act as if the fans' booing Cena is part of his new gimmick as a mean spirited white rapper and keep putting him on tv.

I could go on for days. My point is that when you attend wrestling school and you develop the skill required to understand calls during the match and hit your spots cleanly with crisp timing then you are granted an audience with the WWE higher ups, from there your destiny is written for you no matter how well you manage your talents. Any idiot can play the John Cena character, you run out to save the other faces when they're in trouble and you get shipped around the world to fluff up your reputation as a military loving make a wish enthusiast.

Do yourself a favor. Go on youtube and look up a Leaping Lanny Poffo match or a Jacques Rougeau or a Brad Armstrong match. Ask yourself "Could this guy be John Cena if he was allowed to be by the writing staff?". If your answer is yes, then you have to wonder how many other beloved superstars are only where they are because of friends in high places and a loyal writing staff. Undertaker, friends with Hogan. The Rock/Randy Orton, Vince has a hard on for legacies. John Cena, Steph wants to jump his bone.

Examples of incredibly talented individuals reaching the top are not unheard of, and yes they did occasionally have some political sway in getting there. Guys like Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Stone Cold and CM Punk faced the kind of adversity that would normally bury a potential wrestling career. While Bret was the jewel of the prestigious Hart family, Flair and Hogan hated him and went out of their way to destroy his career. I bring these examples up because at one time we had many of them, where now we only have CM Punk.

WWE wants to make a profit and their full faith is only in guys who would look stupid trying to take what the WWE made for them to another company. Homegrown talent is where they put all their creative energy, and it often shows in how horrible their promos are and in how sloppy their ring work becomes. CM Punk is outselling Cena in merchandise and is more dedicated than anyone else (except perhaps Daniel Bryan) to giving the crowd their money's worth in actual wrestling ability, but he's a dying breed.

 

[Danger Burger]

Interesting topic, my friend. I think that both talent and friends may have it's advantages. Look at Sheamus; he's workout buddies with Triple H, and he's World Heavyweight Champion. Then again, look at Punk; to my understanding, he's not really friends with the highers brass, and he's the longest reigning champion in the company right now.

You talk it as if Sheamus hasnt a touch of talent in him. That always ticks me off. I'm not much of a fan of the great white, but he's not in anyway bad. His push is abit shit, since he wins every friken night, but the guy can go in the ring with his smashmouth/power style. Granted, being friends with the guy incharge cant hurt, and we've seen people like david flair and garett bischoff get pushes for shady reasons, but i cant throw away the guys success purely as a consequence of going to the gym with Triple H.

I'd have to say the three things that help would be (aside from the ability to wrestle, which should be a given) charisma, unique selling point and being cool enough backstage to grease the boss.

Having two of those usually seems to work.

Talent is a complicated word in Professional wrestling, its more than wrestling ability, its mic work, psychology, acting, timing and charisma. If you have that full package theres not much that can stop you outside of bad timing. Sheamus has a few of those and good timing.

Same can be said for bryan. All the wrestling ability in the world can only get you as far as it got Dean Melenko. With a bit of luck or mic skills, it gets you to william regal, or with timing as far as Chris Benoit. But those guys were each lacking in one way or another, Melenko lacked charisma, Benoit wasnt the best on the mic and Regal had a droopy face (I'm sure thats what got in the way?). Jericho on the other hand has a good bit of everything and thats why he's the best in the world at everything he does outside the music world. Sheamus (who this thread... isn't (?) about?) isnt AS talented, but he has a few of the others and he's over. Being vinces gardener will only push you far enough before its decided you are not catching on.

Cool thread man, alot to think about!

 

[whoopin' ass]

i also think it is a combination of the 2 but i do think friends, or at least Vince liking you, can help guys out who wouldn't get the push otherwise. Orton is a good example - he got pushed because Vince liked him despite problems that he had that would have gotten other guys fired. Sheamus got a good push while Ziggler hasn't despite being a good talent. Batista is a great example - not really good in the ring, had a ton of injuries but is a multi-time champ because the right people liked him.even established guys like Jericho and Booker T didn't get great pushed for years compared to other guys. if you are talented, you will eventually get a push but if someone likes you, you can be less talented and still get a good push.

 

[xavyer]

That is a very interesting question, one that probably has many answers, in some cases, is the people you are friends with, in some cases is your talent, and in some is how much money you can make Vince McMahon, this example is a little different, but Zack Ryder, he's not exactly McMahon's favorite superstar, the guy doens't have that much talent, he's a little idiotic with the mic, he got over for two reasons, and one of them is because he sells a lot of merchandise, and if he didn't sell he would have been long gone by now, guys like Edge, CM Punk or Daniel Bryan got over on their own, while guys like Cena, The Rock or Batista got over because of the people that like them, and they gave them chances until they got it right, and i don't think that the same people would give the same type of chances to guys like Drew McCyntire or Alex Riley, and those guys have the talent to make it, another example, Sean O'Haire, he was being build as a top guy, he's good on the mic, and in the ring he definitly has a lot of talent, why did his push got stoped, that's anyones guess, but if the right people would have liked him, i think he would probably be one of the top heels of today, but wno knows what happened........

 

[THTRobtaylor]

It's a difficult point but on balance you have to go with talent first... You have to be physically talented to get to WWE in the first place, be that as a wrestler, bodybuilder, model or athlete... Something about you got you noticed to even be in FCW, much less on RAW or Smackdown... Now.. once you are there, who you know is FAR more important. As guys like Sheamus and even Trips himself once learned (and I am willing to bet Taker himself in the Hogan days). It is very rare for a talent to announce itself, make its way to WWE and succeed without any help. Some guys like Jericho came close, few in WWE thought much of him other than an easy steal from WCW... he made it work (read his 2nd book to get how hard it actually was) now he is kind of out there almost alone... but the irony is that's just what he wants people to think... he is as much a part of the fabric as Taker or Trips... he just earned the right to pick his spots through hard work rather than who he knows... of course WE all know that, so it's hard for them to argue... he really is the Ayatollah of Rock 'n' Rolla lol...

 

[Mongoose McQueen]

To an extend, I'd say both get you to a certain position. Sheamus is a prime example of someone like this, he is talented but has friends also. You need a mixture, politics play a big role in this I believe. They have an effect In your positioning, its also true that it's not always what you know but who you know.

 

[enviousdominous]

I have to say something else. I'm noting a few mentions of Shaemus.

Shaemus is a prime example of my earlier point in regard to pleasing the higher ups first before your talent will possibly mean anything.

Everyone who graduates from wrestling school has the basic borderline talents to be Shaemus, Shaemus is a character that someone plays on tv.

I would assume that the measure of someone's talent is a matter of noting how easy it would be to emulate their timing and athleticism.

Shaemus is a very basic talent from my observances, which is no knock to him believe me. His moves more require participation on part of his opponent than they do athletic prowess on part of Shaemus. I say that this isn't a knock to him because there is indeed a place for someone like Shaemus, someone who gives stiff shots and has the Hogan eyes when they count. His lack of athletic talent is made up for with his abilities of acting.

The question I ask is: Would Shaemus have been allowed to showcase his abilities to the degree that he's been allowed if he wasn't spotting HHH on the bench? I personally think that he would have been another Yoshi Tatsu if it were not for the faith of HHH.

 

[MattRhys20]

Interesting this should come up the week after Barack Obama's speech.

Talent = You do it by yoursefl

Friends = Someone helps you along the way

Can anyone else see the similarities. I think there is a case, like with most things in life, it isn't what you know, it's who you know. Would guys like Tyson Kidd really be in the WWE right now if he didn't come out of The Hart Dungeon? Would Zack Ryder be in the position he is now without ZTLIS and all the attention that got him?

Although (contradicting myself here a bit I know), most people have talent to begin with AND THEN make friends in high places. John Cena had the look, ability etc in his first match, but as soon as The Undertaker shook his hand afterwards, you knew that guy would be great.

I must point out that it's 2:45am at the moment and I talk nothing but nonsense at the best of times, so my point may not make sense

 

[enviousdominous]

Interesting this should come up the week after Barack Obama's speech.

Talent = You do it by yoursefl

Friends = Someone helps you along the way


Although (contradicting myself here a bit I know), most people have talent to begin with AND THEN make friends in high places. John Cena had the look, ability etc in his first match, but as soon as The Undertaker shook his hand afterwards, you knew that guy would be great.

I take issue with the notion that John Cena had the ability and that his look has anything to do with his talent. Looking a certain way isn't talent, his look didn't sell tickets to The Marine. The Rock had the look as well, but he had to come out of his shell and play a gay man in Be Cool to be taken seriously as an actor.

John Cena was dubbed the eventual successor to having "The Man" status, while only having to give it up for brief periods of putting over Randy Orton, the second he impressed Stephanie. Anyone could have gone into the ring with Kurt Angle and perform at Cena's level, watch the match again and note how much of it is Kurt Angle carrying Cena. Undie shaking Cena's hand afterward, that could have happened to any other newcomer, but the writing staff allowed it to happen to Cena.

 

[Airehk]

This is an interesting topic that can be blabbed about all day.

I'm going to agree with whats been said so far, but when it comes to top competitors, ou can see who is alone. Edge is one of them. It feels like when WWE was losing star power, they decided to trust Edge and hope for the best. It worked surprisingly for WWE. This scenario imo can be seen in Punk.

Having friends increases your odds for sure. Otherwise, you better turn heads and be pretty damn good at keeping them turned.

 

[Da Solo]

Perfect thread timing, by the way, what with JTG's twitter rant.

Depends on who the person is. Sheamus, for example, has talent, but got big because he has ties to HHH. Honestly, look how fast it took him to get his first world title reign in comparison to guys who, in all honesty, are/were better than him: Edge, Christian, Booker T, Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, list goes on. CM Punk got his shine probably off of pure talent. He's known to have pissed off plenty of WWE brass and is moreso friends with the midcarders and jobbers than with higher-ups. Hell, remember when they took his WHC strap and put him in the doghouse for comparing his dress code to Cena's?

And then some guys get over off of a mixture of the two. Cena, for example, impressed some big boys when he started getting his momentum, THEN he made friends in the right places & took over.

To push a little personal opinion in here, it really sickens me to see politics get played in the locker-room. Guys like Kofi, Kennedy, Riley, Tarver and others who were going places just to get squashed by politics really didn't deserve whatever BS they got put through in most cases (and Kofi's lucky to have gotten off so easily after pissing off the Almighty Orton). Why should people like the aforementioned Sheamus get by cause of their circles on some high school BS? Let's be honest, even midcarders like Otunga and Sin Cara (though I'm a fan of both) get those benefits: Otunga started off greener than grass in the ring, kept because he's married to Jennifer Hudson; Cara skipped FCW, knows virtually no English & botched on a daily basis. Anyone else would be lucky to be even jobbing right now, but because the brass took HHH's word for it, he's still flying.

 

[Unknown]

U just need to have Respect for the buissness, Have Talent, and have a good Gimmick, those are the three keys to getting a Push so to say.

 

[toocrazee1972]

I think good charisma and a good gimmick both helps you get to the top. if you cant tell a story you wont get shit in wrestling. I think having friends allows you to stay in wrestling when youre past your prime. If the gimmick you get sucks you probably wont go far either so you have to be able to come up with a good gimmick and get the execs to say you can at least try it out see if fans like it

 

[Pegusus Fill_T]

Wow all the Sheamus, Randy, Cena hate here...

Let me break down each point

1.Randy Orton playing backstage politics/ causing a *talented* Kennedy to get released.

How talented was Mr. Kennedy? Pretty damn crisp and on the mark in the ring from my observances. He drops Randy Orton in a way that makes Randy upset and in the blink of an eye they sent Mr. Kennedy a pink slip.

First of all it was Triple H who pushed for Kennedy's release. He implied that in a TNA promo. Second of all, Kennedy was injury prone and was a liability in the ring. The guy screwed up against both Orton & Cena. You work carefully with the top guys period. If they get hurt, the business suffers.Why else do you think Sin Cara is not in a feud against Cena or Orton? because SC hasnt perfected the WWE style yet.

Another thing Randy has said in multiple interviews is that triple H told him to be careful because of the race to the top spot. A person may intentionally injure to put you out of action so that your spot will be available to himself or another. Eg: Barrett v Ziggler. I'm not saying Ziggler intentionally hurt Barrett but if not for barrett's injury, Zigger would still be in the mid card and I'm pretty sure it would be Barrett going against Sheamus. So you cant blame the guy for having the phobia.

2. John Cena kssing Vinnie's ass to get where he is

John Cena kisses ass and laughs at Vince's fucking stupid jokes while wowing Steph with his rapping ability, so they debut him on Smackdown in a match where Kurt Angle puts him way the fuck over. To the marks this should automatically mean that John Cena is a bright young superstar who is destined to take over one day,

Vince and Triple H hated John, a fact admitted by John himself and even jericho in his book. They thought Cena didnt have 'it' The only people who saw the potential in Cena and wanted to give him a shot were Stephanie, Angle and Jericho. Hell, Jericho himself volunteered to put over Cena in his first feud (vengeance 2002) The only difference is John worked hard, was loyal, had good work ethic and took the ball home when he was given the chance. They didnt make him look unstoppable like they did with Lesnar, but gave him a mic, a joke of a gimmick and told him to roll. Cena made use of it and actually made the gimmick very successful.

3.Sheamus on top

yes, maybe Sheamus being HHH's workout buddy works well for him. But it was reported few years back that everyone backstage was very impressed by Sheamus. Sheamus like Cena is well known to be a hard worker. He often takes tips from Shawn, Orton etc to continuously improve which was confirmed by some backstage reports and even in Orton's DVD, you can see Sheamus taking tips from Orton. So for Sheamus hard work did pay off and he does have talent. Just that IWC hates him because hating him is the inthing now since he's face.

To answer the question in your thread - the most important thing is hard work. You may not have the backing of superiors or great talent but if you work hard and try to continuously improve and even promote WWE and make Vince happy, you'll be able to go your way to the top. Eg: Cena, Sheamus & Miz (Miz worked hard and impressed Vince 2 years back hence the WM push)

Talent: Talent doesnt mean only in ring talent but the ability to draw the crowd. It is also very important. Eg: Rock, Orton, DB etc

Connections: Backstage poltics do help you to a certain extent. But remember, Vince is no fool to let a guy play backstage politics and be the man if he's not talented and cant draw. The reason Backstage politics worked for HBK, Hogan, Stone Cold & Triple H was because they were damn good too

PS: or you can be a whiner and threaten to leave after making a one hit wonder promo and then continue to be a whiner. It worked for Punk

 

[richunclescrooge]

I would say there's a third variable: a marketable look

Many people have been signed on that alone, with the thought that "You can teach someone to wrestle but you can't teach the look"

Some of those guys have gone on to be successful, ie: Batista, who was BEFRIENDED by HHH because he had the look.

Some have not, ie; Mason Ryan.

Many people, even in the past have been brought into the world of professional wrestling due to this.

But as far as the original two variables go, I'd say it's easier for friends to get you in, but to stay at the top you need talent.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Sheamus got a good push while Ziggler hasn't despite being a good talent.

I have an issue with this. Ziggler has had more than one push but each time he failed to sustain it. He had a long run as US champ and never got over. He had a feud with Punk and didn't get over, he had tag team chances with Swagger and failed to get over. This feud with Jericho is his last, best chance to get to full time main event status. If he doesn't he will go back to having solid midcard feuds and being a jobber to the stars, where I think he is best suited anyway.

On topic, having friends helps. There are guys in the past who had less than main event skill that have been pushed pretty hard due to their relationships. Batista and Nash are two pretty good examples. I think talent will trump everything however, unless you have a piss poor attitude and are content to burn bridges with everyone who offers you a job, like Low-Ki. Look at guys like Punk and Bryan. They did their time on the indy circuit but the fans appreciate their skills and even though it took longer than it should have they are getting their chance to shine.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

It is definitely a combination of both.

You need the talent to get you to the dance, WWE will not sign you unless you have something that you can offer which appeals, be it technical wrestling ability, your size/muscle mass, or the ability to cut a good promo.

However, once you are in WWE you do need to play the backstage game of politics to a large extent. There are plenty of guys backstage in the WWE locker room who will be more than happy to get your push cancelled, and have the stroke/influence to do it. If you piss off Undertaker, Triple H, Cena or Orton then you are in trouble.

It isn't just WWE though, its every walk of life. Look in almost every business worldwide and there will be someone who got a job pr received a promotion ahead of others beause of who they know and who they are friendly with.

The Kliq is an excellent example of guys using their backstage influence to get what they want, and another is Hulk Hogan getting WCW and later TNA to bring in alot of his useless buddies to keep him company. People like Brian Knobs should never have got anywhere in wrestling, but he did because of his friendship with Hogan.

It can really benefit a wrestler to have the "right" friends backstage, as getting on the wrong side of people can get your held back, no matter how good you can perform in the ring- you won't be allowed to show it.

 

[SD619]

Look at Sheamus; he's workout buddies with Triple H, and he's World Heavyweight Champion.

So, the crowd reacts to Sheamus because he is HHH's buddy?I think that you have to give average pro-wrestling fan more credit than that.

I think that it a a combination of both, with more focus on talent. Almost every guy who was pushed as a main-eventer has been done so on account of his talent. If you are friends with "the higher ups" they might push you, but it is ultimately the audience that will like or reject you. And the pro-wrestling audience has quite a decent measure of talent.

Also, it is not that this situation exists only in the pro-wrestling world. In any company, if you act like an unprofessional ass, they will fire you, regardless of your talents.

 

[ITrippedTheShockmaster]

Personally, I'd say it's a mix of both.

Pro wrestling is just like any other business. How you advance it is the variable.

You can do it by years of hard work in the wrestling schools and minor leagues that gets you the years of experience needed to move up to the higher ranks. Look at all the wrestlers who toiled in the bingo halls, high school gyms and small independent groups for years, busting their butts to get noticed and move up the chain to more regional promotions and then to the big time.

Talent, for the most part, gets recognized - whether it's athleticism, mic skills, personality, etc. Some people just have all of these and are made to succeed, but most people have to develop these skills. But, you sometimes have those rare cases where people skip that part of the process and get brought in on an eyeball test because they have one or any combination of the three. Same things happens in the working world. You bust your ass, but get looked over because the pretty girl/handsome guy wanted the same position and isn't as qualified as you are.

But, it also helps to make connections in the business with people who are at your level or above you, who can give you references or even use stroke to get you into higher positions. It's not always kosher, but it's how the world works. If your best friend works for a company - especially in a management position or another position with power - and you're looking for a job, wouldn't you go to your friend and see if he could help you out? Of course. Same things goes in the world of pro wrestling. If a guy is looking for a gig, his buddy in a fed will more than likely talk him up and try to get him a job there. You want to help your friends out, if you can. Of course, it doesn't hurt for the boss to like you, too.

There's also a high level of nepotism in the industry. Men and women seen as legacies (if their parents/grandparents/etc. were in the industry) tend to be given a shot because of their lineage. How many family names can you throw around in the wrestling world and get numerous names tied to them? Exactly.

And, yes, politics behind the scenes can also play a role in how you advance. If you're an absolute a-hole and no one likes you, you're not as likely to move up. But, if you do what you're told, glad-hand and kiss the right ass, you can put yourself on the fast track. It's a sad fact, but it's a fact nonetheless.

 

[HBKistheHOF]

I don't think any guy that has made it to the top had NO talent, but I think WWE finds one thing they like in a performer; the look of Sheamus, the physique of Cena, etc. and they get fixated on it.

The performer starts to get an "in" with the company, due to the fact that they are the kind of "star" that WWE currently wants, and they start making friends in the back.

So then they have firends in the back and WWE gets so obsessed with pushing that certain guy because of that certain attribute that caught their eye in the first place. Then the guy gains some popularity and more time for promos, matches, etc. and makes even more friends in the back.

Then (as Undertaker's entrance at Mania 19 would say...) keep rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin'

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Someone like Sheamus hasn't really done much wrong. He just followed the "tradition" of carrying the bags and paying dues. Someone like Trips would respect that as it was how he got into his position, doing that for Nash, Hall and Shawn. Nepotism is there, but the biz was based on "paying dues", and today's system doesn't really allow for that in the old school way of losing lots of matches.

So today if you want to get ahead you make friends with the right people, do their dirty laundry so to speak. The Riley/Cena thing was interesting as it seemed to centre around the "right" of talent to rib lower card guys, basically bullying. I would be far more concerned about that kind of stuff than if Sheamus carried Trip's bags for a year to get where he is.

 

[ckoneagain]

honestly i think it's neither, it's respect, guys get respected for loads of different reasons might be coz they're nice guys who are selfless and hard working, or it might be because they are incredible at what they do or it could be for a ton of different reasons, or it could be one specific occassion, but any way you look at it it's respect of their piers that gets these guys pushed, some take a little longer to get that respect is all.