Taking Your Finisher

[Pay Per Ghost]

Now one of the hot topics these days (maybe luke warm) is about the springboard stunner and how Austin is not all that thrilled about Cena using it, the way he does lets say. The usage of one's finisher has always been a contentious issue in wrestling and as it should be. That reference to the DDT and the Mark Henry headlock theory on the recent live podcast with Paul E sheds a lot of light on this little nuance of wrestling that affects its suspension of disbelief, perhaps on a subconscious level for the viewers.

The DDT is beyond repair unless you add some tweak to it ala Dirty Deeds but it does make a lot of sense not haphazardly throwing around an ex-wrestler's finisher. Cena to his credit (and if my memory serves me correctly) used the Springboard Stunner as the setup to the AA. Still the impact that the stunner carried...now don't get me wrong, it was Austin who made the stunner not the other way around. Mikey whipwreck and Disco Inferno could pull it off perhaps more seamlessly but it is the GUY who really makes the finisher. Hell look at the AA!

Which brings us to the question does it really matter? Does it matter if a finisher is taken?

 

[SJ5522]

I listened to this funny story on an interview about two CZW guys in a violent fatal 4 way match, one wrestler got a ladder thrown at the back of his head, and then another wrestler goes to suplex the first wrestler, but wrestler 1 is so legit groggy he cant properly get up for it, so wrestler 2 decides to just dump him over the top rope to the floor. 2-3 minutes later, wrestler 1 storms in the ring and starts shoot punching and kicking the shit out of wrestler 2, until a third wrestler comes in and gives him a DDT, wrestler 1 says "shit, that's Jake Roberts' finishing move - I have to sell this, or i'd still be beating the hell out of him to this day"

I don't get too worked up about this stuff, though. I agree, it's the person who makes the move. The stunner would be unremarkable if it wasnt for Austin slooshing beer in your face and flipping the bird. Then there's the people's elbow! An elbow drop, with theatrics, on ground level. Who hasn't stolen that, minus the theatrics? And it'd be pretty crazy to see anyone else get a 3 count from a standing elbow drop

 

[TheICChampion]

What about HBK's finisher, Sweet Chin Music? A few theatrics, then bam, superkick. Nowadays, sure they take away the theatrics, but pretty much anybody with a drop of athleticism who's under 230 pounds is using it like it's going out of style.

 

[wrestler36]

it loses a lot of it's impact if several people do it, or if the move gets demoted as part of the regular arsenal. The 450 splash is another example. It's such a cool looking move and the impact looks hard, but when Neville does it from the outside barrier or the middle rope as just part of his regular moves, it loses its uniqueness.

 

[chuckmdubya]

I'm not big on the stunner stealing or any finisher theft but I do believe there are times when it is acceptable.

1. When using it against the originator, or the person who made it famous.
2. When a performer's popularity is based almost solely off of a rub or a copying gimmick.
(examples would be Vince McMahon using the stunner, or Sandow using the Macho elbow)
3. When a performer gains popularity in another promotion and brings the move with them to WWE.
4. When you are a member of a faction/ family or trained by a legend who used the move (Tyson Kidd / Natalya using Sharpshooter.)
5. If the wrestler comes from an amateur or MMA background. (swagger using the ankle lock. Where is Swagger by the way?)

 

[Jack-Hammer]

To me, it's not a big deal. Personally, I think the wrestlers who get bent out of shape over wrestlers using their finishers or variants of their finisher need to get over themselves. If you wanna be upset about something, be pissed if someone else is sleeping with your wife, bullying your children, calls your mother a $5 ****e, etc.; you know, stuff that's actually worth getting bent out of shape over.

The only ones I can think of who I MIGHT, JUST MIGHT have legit reason to be upset would be the wrestler who legitimately created the move. Angle didn't invent the Angle Slam, which is a glorified back suplex, nor did he create the ankle lock as wrestlers have used variations of the ankle lock for decades. Austin didn't invent the stunner; in fact, he "stole" the move from ECW legend Mikey Whipwreck. Bully Ray's bent out of shape because Harper & Rowan used their finisher last night, which is just a combination of a Flapjack and a Cutter, neither of which were innovated by either D-Von or Bully Ray; I dunno who innovated the Flapjack, but the Cutter was created by, believe it or not, John Laurinaitis and it was called the Ace Crusher, yet Big Johnny's never griped about DDP, Randy Orton, Bully Ray or anyone utilizing it, at least not as far as I know. And over the years, how many times have we seen Yoshiaki Fujiwara's patented Fujiwara Armbar used over the years and by how many different wrestlers? Yet, the Japanese legend hasn't gone to the dirt sheets or Twitter to complain over the years.

I've no idea why social media or having a microphone put in their faces causes some wrestlers to act like classless idiots.

 

[ChicagoMade Punk]

Lets talk current wrestlers.
Chris Jericho: Invented the lion tamer. No one uses it, because he's not done. And if someone wanted to use it, they should have permission from him.
However, if Neville or however you spell his name, wanted to use the super kick he shouldn't have to call ziggler, or the usos to use it. Move creates are different than current move users.

 

[Radical]

I don't get too worked up about this stuff, though. I agree, it's the person who makes the move. The stunner would be unremarkable if it wasnt for Austin slooshing beer in your face and flipping the bird. Then there's the people's elbow! An elbow drop, with theatrics, on ground level. Who hasn't stolen that, minus the theatrics? And it'd be pretty crazy to see anyone else get a 3 count from a standing elbow drop

I think you pretty much nailed it there. Over the years enough famous finishers have been 'stolen' or done a little bit differently and been much less of an impact but really, who cares?

I'm sure there is a line there. I mean, if a bunch of wrestlers started doing the Tombstone Piledriver and opponents regulary kicked out of it I'm sure people would have reason to be pretty upset because of how iconic Undertaker (and even Kane) have made that move.

But, come to think of it, besides that particular move I can't see any move that is too sacred to be used by someone else to a lesser or greater degree than the wrestler who made it famous.

If you want to talk the Stunner, look no further than Santino Marella. Long before John Cena started the Springboard Stunner, Santino was doing his version of the stunner dropping down to his knees doing the splits but the move wasn't very effective. Not even sure if he got a pin from it. But the move was fun to watch and because of the character of Santino fans mostly enjoyed it. It was entertaining so I guess that's all that matters.

I think the main thing is that fans generally do like seeing new moves and if moves are rehashed then sometimes fans are less interested but sometimes it is just the nature of the business being around so long - things will change!

 

[FlairFan2003]

Lets talk current wrestlers.
Chris Jericho: Invented the lion tamer. No one uses it, because he's not done. And if someone wanted to use it, they should have permission from him.
However, if Neville or however you spell his name, wanted to use the super kick he shouldn't have to call ziggler, or the usos to use it. Move creates are different than current move users.

Invented The Lion Tamer ?? You mean The Boston Crab that was used by Steamboat, Flair, Whyndam, and others in the 80s and in fact was the main finisher of Rick Martel ?? Im pretty sure Brett Hart used it too.

Jericho didn't invent that move anymore than Hart invented The Sharpshooter (which was Sting's finisher almost 2 years before Hart went singles and started using it)

 

[Burritocover]

I don't have an issue with people taking finishers from guys who are retired or otherwise out of the company. What I do hate though is when they use that move as just a high spot. Stone Cold and JR have been talking about the DDT for months and I've been bitching about it since guys first started using it. Ziggler uses it in every match and never gets a 3 count. When he does that it always makes me think he just sucks at hitting it because no one ever kicked out when Jake used to hit it. Lots of guys use it and it drives me nuts. Same with the super kick. I guess all these guys getting two counts just aren't as good at is as HBK. It just makes it hard to suspend disbelief. If ziggler just used it as his finish and pinned people with it Id have no problem with it. I guess there are lots of fans not old enough to have seen Jake or HBK so they don't see it that way but still just looking at it logically how do you drop a dude on his head with all of your weight coming down on it and not knock him out. That's part of what made that move so great. It was totally believable. Same with the super kick.

 

[Wald]

I have no problem with finishers being used once a guy is out of the company, though I did find it odd that the Rock started using the Sharpshooter in '98 (although on reflection it might have just been because he never applied the hold properly). I will agree with Austin, Heyman and JR when they say some moves have become devalued because of overuse though. The poster above me talks about Ziggler using the DDT constantly as just some random and that cuts to the heart of it. In fact it cuts to the heart of the problem with a lot of modern wrestlers. They don't know how to sell and they take us out of the match with things like this.

Kayfabe wise it is ridiculous that a guy doesn't go down for three after he has his head driven straight in to the mat and all of his and his opponents weight comes down on him. Now I'm not saying I want wrestling to go back to being a series of rest holds, chops and punches before a finisher but there is a balance that needs to be found.

 

[Radical]

Kayfabe wise it is ridiculous that a guy doesn't go down for three after he has his head driven straight in to the mat and all of his and his opponents weight comes down on him. Now I'm not saying I want wrestling to go back to being a series of rest holds, chops and punches before a finisher but there is a balance that needs to be found.

I tend to agree with you on that but is it possible that wrestling has gone too far to go back and fix it?

I mean superkicks and DDTs are truly thrown around a fair bit in almost every match and rarely do they get pins and what's worse is that the opponent sometimes just straight up kicks out of it! Not a rope break, not much time delayed between the hitting the move and pinning, no distractions, etc. Just straight up kick out. Now, after the move there is SOME selling but once they get back into it you don't really see the wrestler show signs of being shook up in the head.

I don't know really how they could go back and fix it. I mean, if they tried it would be painfully obvious that we just stopped seeing DDTs and superkicks as regular moves and it would take years until fans accepted that somehow these DDTs and superkicks just suddenly became finishers and somehow no one could hit them during the main part of the match.

You say you don't want to go back to rest holds and basic chops and punches but if you take out DDTs or any variation of them and take out any variation of a superkick (including to those who are kneeling) then does it maybe take something away from the matches overall entertainment value?

Maybe it's just a sign of the times and times these days is trying to portray the wrestlers (or Superstars) of today as VERY super and very tough and very resilient. I don't think it is meant to be a diss to the wrestlers of old but when I see a wrestler kick out at 2 after a DDT or superkick I think it is just showing how gritty and tough they are with a 'never say die' attitude.

What COULD be done better is better selling throughout the match after those high impact moves occur (like the opponent holding his head sometimes or shaking his head still showing signs of the affect of that move) and also just having those DDTs and Superkicks actually end the match a little bit more would be a HUGE help.

See, because I'm a 'smart' wrestling fan, I basically know what to expect. And I'm not special in this case, many wrestling fans know that as impactful as Ziggler's jumping DDT looks, I know that the opponent will not get pinned so I never get too excited. I know when The Miz goes for a snap DDT that the opponent will not get pinned. How do I know these things? I'm no psychic. I'm just an observer and what I have observed is that I cannot REMEMBER a time when a Ziggler DDT, Ziggler Fameasser, Miz Snap DDT, etc. have ended a match. If I even saw those moves end a match 2 or 3 times in a 4 month span then I would have to get more credit to that move and believe in its impact.

Ziggler unfortunately is a sad case because he has a jumping DDT, a Fameasser and a Superkick that all look devastating but very rarely end a match! Makes him look weak actually. But imagine next Raw he wins a match with his Fameasser. Then next SmackDown he wins a match with his Jumping DDT ... even if it is on a jobber ... AT LEAST you can say that move is dangerous. Otherwise, if the move doesn't end a match it's no better than Scoop Slam!

 

[SJ5522]

I tend to agree with you on that but is it possible that wrestling has gone too far to go back and fix it?

I mean superkicks and DDTs are truly thrown around a fair bit in almost every match and rarely do they get pins and what's worse is that the opponent sometimes just straight up kicks out of it! Not a rope break, not much time delayed between the hitting the move and pinning, no distractions, etc. Just straight up kick out. Now, after the move there is SOME selling but once they get back into it you don't really see the wrestler show signs of being shook up in the head.

I don't know really how they could go back and fix it. I mean, if they tried it would be painfully obvious that we just stopped seeing DDTs and superkicks as regular moves and it would take years until fans accepted that somehow these DDTs and superkicks just suddenly became finishers and somehow no one could hit them during the main part of the match.

American wrestling allows closed fists, which would knock people out cold, and make people bleed every single match if everything HAD to be sold exactly how it would hurt, and don't get me started on headbutts. Part of the reason you dont see many people get wins on DDTs is cos the sport has evolved. in 2015 we know a hell of a lot more about personal fitness and nutrition than people did when Roberts was wrestling, combine that with less drug problems in the business and that's why we generally see faster paced matches nowadays

 

[benm1989]

I think they just need to get over it.
Look at most finishers out there these days.
Nearly every finisher out there has most likely been done before I'll give examples
Sheamus: brogue kick, white noise, high cross(I think). Well Matt Morgan used the brogue kick as the carbon footprint, a train also used it, Finlay had the white noise as the Celtic cross his main finisher and Scott hall with razors edge sheamus did that for a time as high cross.
Michelle mccool used aj styles finishing move.
Evan Bourne used billy kid mans move.
Goldberg, big show, roman reigns, edge and a lot more used the spear.
Hell triple h's pedigree was used by so many Indy talents as a regular move even cm punk started doing it in roh
Choke slam is another think a wrestler called 911 in ecw used it along with big show Kane taker even hurricane lol
Recycling finishers is normal in wrestling so no need for a wrestler to bitch about it
Sure they probably "stole" it themselves
Better question would be who actually created a move
Aj styles spiral tap, nevilles red arrow are two unique ones I seen
Just looking at Indy wrestling I see so many moves been done as regular moves all the time