The Art Of Kicking Out Of A Finisher

[THEpapachamp]

The Finishing move, a title that as of late has loss it's meaning to me. Back in the golden days of wrestling is was unheard of of someone hitting there finishing move and having the person kick out at 2.

Look at Hulk Hogan's Leg drop, probably one of the worst finishers in history but the reason people respect it it because in the entire history of WWE/WCW only THREE man have kicked out of it. The Ultimate Warrior, The Rock, and Goldberg.

Remember the first time you seen The Rock kick out of the stunner? the first time Kane kicked out of the Tombstone? or The Rock hit Austin with the stunner? they were all historic moments, you only saw this happen at HUGE built up matches usually only at Wrestlemania or Summerslam.

But nowadays it seems EVERY main event match on RAW, SD! or any PPV has someone kicking out of someone else's finisher or performing there opponents finisher on them to the point where you expect it now.

Every match I expect Someone to kick out of a AA in WWE Title match, I see someone kicking out of a choke slam or RKO.

Has this become a necessity for the WWE in order to entertain us? and how long before it loses all it's creditability?

 

[PompeyDJ]

i find that finishers are only kicked out of in huge ppv matches. this is usually just to add to the drama and unpredictability of the match. one thing that annoyed me was at capitol punishment with john cena vs r truth. r truth has used the scissor kick, the spinning elbow thing and that move that took out jomo (i think its shelton benjamin's paydirt?) as finishers in this wwe run. he used all 3 of them against john cena in that match and cena kicked out of all of them. the paydirt move is his current finisher and he used it like it was a normal move, the commentators called it like a normal move and cena kicked out like it was a normal move

 

[Nate DaMac]

I think you're over stating it. Kicking out of finishers isn't as common place as you'd like everyone to believe. Cena still wins the majority of his matches with the AA, Orton with the RKO, etc. But in big time matches against credible opponents, it's acceptable for a kick out or 2. It helps to establish the toughness of the opponent, especially in cases like Miz and Punk. Neither of them were cemented as main event talent so going into their perspective matches with Cena, so they seem to be in over their heads a bit. But having them kick out of the AA once instills a certain amount of belief suspension from the viewer. You think, "Well maybe they do have a shot at winning this."

I can see where you're coming from and if the top guys were having nobodies like Otunga or McIntyre kicking out of Finishers then we'd have a problem. But main event talents are suppose to look more credible than others, and kicking out of a big time finisher can certainly help with that.

It's not as commonplace as you think either. Just last night Cody Rhodes put down Big Zeke with his CrossRhodes finisher. Things like that happen all the time.

 

[Uncle Sam]

When was the last time someone used their opponent's finisher on them? OK, Rey used the STF on Cena, but before that I'm really, really racking my brain. If you'd have told me before that match that Rey was going to use Cena's finisher, I would have punched you to the floor and called the local loony bin before you could start flashing your cock at old ladies. I really don't think finisher-stealing is the endemic you claim it to be.

As for the art of kicking out of finishers, it's still alive and well. Look no further than the Money in the Bank main event. If you'd have told me that CM Punk was going to kick out of one AA, let alone two, and refuse to tap to one STF, let alone three, again, I'd have you locked up before you could say "Please don't hit me again, I don't think I can take another beating."

 

[SyndicateSaint]

Look at Hulk Hogan's Leg drop, probably one of the worst finishers in history but the reason people respect it it because in the entire history of WWE/WCW only THREE man have kicked out of it. The Ultimate Warrior, The Rock, and Goldberg.

And Sid, and The Undertaker, and Sting.....


I understand your point though. Maybe it's because I'm more a fan of Japanese wrestling, but I think it's ok for someone to kick out of a finisher. If the opponent isn't beaten bad enough why not? But then again, some Japanese wrestlers (Kenta Kobashi for example) have a finish they do once every couple years. Kobashi has only done the Burning Hammer 7 times. NO ONE has ever kicked out of it. People know him for his Burning Lariat finisher more. They need a "last resort" move that no one gets out of. At least the big names do. Back when Undertaker was using the Last Ride, whenever he'd do the Tombstone that was IT. Match over you know? I think that would be a better approach to finishers.

It's better then a guy having his knee worked on, then get hit with a glorified Fireman's Carry slam and then be pinned.

 

[PlayTheGameHHH]

It is fairly common these days now that you mention it lmao I've never noticed it before. I think it's to add some shock value, in the "Golden Era" when a wrestler hit the finishing move you knew it was over and that, in my opinion, was quite a dull and boring way of doing things. When a wrestler kicks out the crowd goes crazy and the match becomes even more interesting, CM Punk VS Cena at MITB, need I say more?

 

[H33LTurn]

I dont think its hurting the prestige of a finisher, it just makes the match more interesting. The reason that people kick out of finishers on PPVs is because they want to give you the idea that the competitors are more motivated to win the match. I dont think it makes any sense to not kick out of a legdrop if its a huge match. The fact that we see it happening more and more is just integrating finishers into a regular moveset. Over the past couple of years when we saw a finisher we pretty much knew it was over. With superstars kicking out of finishers more and more it shows that the finisher is not any more damaging than a regular move, even though it plays a key role in the match.

 

[UFOcalling]

You're absolutely right; these days it doesn't seem uncommon to see more than one finishing move (per opponent) performed in a main-event (or "major" title) match. It seems that this is a fairly recent phenomenon, but it must go back at least 15 years or so (that's when I started watching wrestling again). Before that, any finishing move meant the opponent was DONE, and not getting back up - no matter what.

You really have to understand that the story-telling in the ring now is different than it used to be. A lot of guys have more than one finisher these days (ie: Cena - with the STF, "You-Can't-See-Me" and the AA, Mysterio - the 619 and body-splash off the top rope, etc). With so many ways for an opponent to win a match, the fans almost expect to see every finisher performed (especially in a main-event setting).

IMHO, it's really weird (for lack of a better term) when a wrestler changes their finishing maneuver, or when a "signature move" becomes a finisher. There are two PERFECT examples (of the latter) that occur during the 1998 WWE (WWF) King of the Ring PPV. The first happens during a tag match (New Age Outlaws vs. The New Midnight Express), and the second happens during one of the KotR qualifying matches featuring The Rock (I can't remember which specifically, he was in two matches that night).

During the tag match, Billy Gunn hit a move that later became known as the "Fameasser". This was before it was Gunn's finisher (I don't know what move he used before the Fameasser), and I'm not even sure that Gunn went for a cover after the move. If he did, it sure as hell didn't finish the match. The weird thing is that only a few months later, that exact same move would have rendered his opponent unconscious.

Something similar happened during one of the Rock's KotR qualifying matches. I'm not sure which, like I mentioned earlier...hell, he could have done this in BOTH matches. Rock's first match of the PPV was against Dan Severn (in which Rock was victorious), the second was the final match of the KotR contest - where Rock was defeated by Ken Shamrock.

The Rock performed a move that was awesome to see, something that he must have done before this PPV - since J.R. knew enough to call the move an "artistic elbow". Yes, it was the move that later became known as "The People's Elbow" (aka "The Corporate Elbow"). All the basic elements of the move were there: bouncing off one rope, jumping over his opponent, bouncing off the other rope, then a slight pause before dropping the elbow. The only thing that was missing was the classic spinebuster, then pose, then the removal of the elbow pad (and the toss of said pad into the crowd). This move did NOT defeat Rock's opponent that night, even though the EXACT SAME move was later able to completely incapacitate an opponent for the 1-2-3 (just like the Fameasser, as I mentioned earlier).

With this onslaught of new "signature" moves becoming more and more popular with the fans, the wrestlers would be stupid to NOT perform them in EVERY match. Otherwise, the fans would leave the arena saying "...Rocky did the Rock-Bottom tonight, but why didn't we see the People's Elbow? I'm pissed...". Pissed off fans equal lower ticket sales, lower merch sales, etc. It must have been Vince, the trainers, the writers, or the wrestlers themselves that took these moves and elevated their status from "signature move" to "finishing move". Having more than one finishing move is quite common today, even though there are still plenty of wrestlers that have only one move that get them the win.

The fans expect to see all of these finishing moves performed (at least in high-status matches), and it's impossible to see them performed without seeing at least ONE kick-out. There's also the factor that others have already mentioned (so I won't get into it), but a kick-out from a finishing move also makes a match more exciting (and less predictable). There have already been so many good points in this thread about this; I'd only be repeating others if I spoke on it now.

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This next part is a little off-topic, but I wanted to mention a conversation that I had with a friend in the late 1990s about the DDT. The DDT is a move that used to ONLY be a finishing move. Jake the Snake couldn't have been the first man to perform the move, but he's the first guy I remember seeing do it (and make it a finisher). After you saw Jake hit that move, you knew his opponent was out-cold (and thought he possibly had a concussion). It just seemed that there was NO WAY that Jake's opponent was getting up from that DDT.

I don't know exactly when the DDT became a common move that would NOT put an opponent down for good (a good example of this is Randy Orton's DDT off the second rope...yes, it IS a "signature move", however it usually doesn't end the match), as I stopped watching wrestling again until the mid-nineties. When I started watching again, the only guy that could finish an opponent off with a DDT regularly was Raven (yes, Sting performed the Scorpion Death Drop as a finisher, but it wasn't the "classic" DDT). It seemed that everyone could pop right back up from a DDT, unless it was performed by either Raven or Jake the Snake.

Inversely, Kevin Nash was the first guy I remember turning the Powerbomb into a finishing maneuver. Before that, it was a common move, performed by many, that would usually not finish a match.

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We all know that pro-wrestling has predetermined outcomes. In some cases, the entire match is predetermined, move-for-move. Why do we still watch, if we know that it's "fake"? I hear that question from friends & family all the time. The answer is that most "good" entertainment is scripted (that even includes SOME "reality TV"). You wouldn't say "that's fake" to somebody if they were going to see a play written by Shakespeare, would you? Of course not. You have to suspend disbelief, and buy into a certain amount of the kayfabe if you really want to enjoy the experience. Same goes for guys kicking out of finishers; if you don't believe "the other guy" has a fighting chance, it makes for a far less exciting match. Sorry for such a long post, hope I didn't bore you to death.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Not really. In the WWE they usually, especially with their stars, protect their finishers. It's not like everyone is Kurt Angle where they have to apply their sub 15 times and do their impact finish 27 times for anyone to buy a false finish. It's not like Japan or ROH where guys have to invent new finishers because nobody buys their old ones anymore.

The WWE not only does a good job at protecting their finishers, but you don't see other guys using them as regular moves like you do in other promotions.

I think a finish should be kicked out of, at most, once every 6 months during an incredibly intense feud. You can do it smartly too. A straight kick out devalues it more than getting your hand on the ropes. Timing is also a big deal. Let's say you're exhausted, hit your finish, then it takes you a while to cover. That makes it more acceptable to kick out. If you are on a dominating run, then hit it, then cover immediately, if he kicks out it devalues it quite a bit.

 

[Marzyk]

I basically agree with a lot of these posts. I do not think that finishers will loose any credibility. People will always know and respect the fact that a tradmarks move represents a major blow. Breaking out will only make the opponent look tougher and gain credibility for him.

 

[osujiking]

i guess some people seem to forget the undertaker hhh at werstlemainia when taker got hit with his own tombstone there is certain people who allows there moves to be done you wont see kane do a 619 or cm punk do a chokeslam it depends on who the match is all about and if the crowd is into it finishers are good but sometimes a regular move would be nice to end a match
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[radec]

Kicking out of a finisher dosent hurt the move it just makes the wrestler kicking out of a finisher look stronger. Every finisher is looked as a finisher. A finisher kills 1 in 1 blow and if u kick out then good for u, u look stronger. Either way a finisher wotn lose credability if it dosent kill in 1 shot then it wont be a finisher.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

It's really not as common as you're making it seem. Even though you're sort of right, it does happen about once a PPV main event, it's still a big deal for the guy kicking out of it. Finishers are still seen as, you know, finishers. They finish the match (or lay someone out for a long time) a good 95% of the time. I haven't gotten to the point where kicking out of someone's finisher has become predictable to me, and sometimes I can get pretty smarky.

 

[Frozen Fire]

I think it is not as common as u say..... it is mostly reserved for important matches, like for the past 3 Wrestlemanias, all of Undertaker's matches had moments when Shawn or HHH kicked out of his finishers (chokeslam, last ride and tombstone) multiple times. As far as i remember Michaels even countered the Hell's gate. it is seen every now and then in title matches but only on PPV and is not so common on weekly TV shows.... so it still has a lot of shock value as far as the fans are concerned.... I mean check out the reaction of fans when Shawn Michaels kicked out of the tombstone in the first match he had with UT at WM25 or recently when Punk countered out of the STF and applied the Anaconda vice instead.. so it is not being over-used but that's just my opinion....

 

[Schwing]

It's just the same as everything else that's over done these days. Back in 1996 we got the first Hell in a Cell match, the natural successor to the Cage Match (Which Gladly has remained and still gets people excited, as it should.) Now we're in 2011, we have annual Hell in the Cell PPV's and Elimination Chamber PPV's... The natural successor to HIAC.

In 1999 Edge and Christian and the Hardy Boys changed the way Ladder Matches were thought of and in turn that match has inspired TLC, MITB, Ultimate X and many others. Again, we now have two PPV's a year devoted to Ladder Matches.

It's a matter of taking what we currently have and making it less predictable. That moment that The Rock kicked out of the Stone Cold Stunner made us leap out of our seats in shock. Then Stone Cold kicked out of a Rock Bottom and it happened again. Until then, at least on such a grand stage, it never happened. If they hit a finisher, the three count was irrelevant. But then where do you go from there? If nobody ever kicked out of a finisher again then we'd always look to the likes of Austin and The Rock and see them as better than the current guys more so than we do already. The obvious solution was to make it happen more often. Once something has happened, you can never go back to the way it was before.