Taker's Moves Ruined Taker

[wrestler36]

Kane started in the independents a few years after Taker did but has been full time on the roster the last couple of years whereas Taker has only been doing Wrestlemania. Kane still looks to be in excellent shape at 48 and isn't moving with a limp or any lingering injuries. Granted, I'm using only Kane as a side by side comparison, but when you look at each other's moves, Undertaker's own offense has him taking so many more bumps that I can't help but think he put himself in this position to not be able to compete as much as maybe he'd like to. Hell, I think Old School and his big leg drop alone could have taken at least 5 years from his career.

I never liked Kane's top rope clothesline as I thought he was so big as it was, that it was unnecessary. It always looked messy too, but now I understand that he kind of landed on his toes and did a front roll, diminishing much of the force on his body. UT's old school has his entire body absorbing that jump that's well over 5-6 feet. I went to several house shows in the 90s and he did it every time. At 300 lbs, that takes such a toll on his knees, back, spine, etc. Same with his big leg drop. Hell, look at Hogan now. He spent a lifetime doing leg drops and had to have back surgery.

Heck, even the tombstone, UT's bodyweight along with his opponent's comes crashing down on his knees. Kane stopped using it a long time ago and just does the chokeslam. Come to think of it, other than the clothesline, I don't think he has any big moves that requires him to take a bump himself.

Anyways, I wonder if UT replaced or modified some of his moves, if he would have had a few more years left in him. Like if he rolled through on old school, or turned it into a body press or something. And if he changed that leg drop on the apron to a boot to the guy's head. And used the Last Ride for a few more years rather than the Tombstone. I can't help but think that his current injuries will get worse as he ages.

 

[supernatural1981]

I think you have made some excellent points about the difference in move set later on between the two but another thing to consider is the types of matches these two had in the past.

Undertaker is known for putting his body through Hell in a cell matches as well as Casket matches and other pretty rough match types. Even the last few matches at mania have gone 20-30 minutes which is a long time for a guy his size.

Kane has not been known for the same type and length of matches as Taker, which alone has probably saved a couple of years for him. The Brock Lesnar match alone nearly ended Taker because of the concussion and other things if the dirt sheet's are to be believed.

 

[Un-Bo-Lievable Jeff]

I'm not sure what your overall point really is.

Any wrestler could not take half of the bumps and have a really safe move set but would they be as big a legend?

You've compared the condition of Kane and Undertaker, Kane in a lot better shape over the years. Compare that to the legendary status of each wrestler and I think you find your answer as to why Undertaker done it.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

Well, this is kind of obvious. Wrestler A does more high impact moves than Wrestler B = Wrestler A is more broken down. Pretty simple really.

You are right though, that modifying his move set would probably have added a couple more years of full-time wrestling onto his career, but it's not like it's really shortened it by much.The guy has still been round for well over 2 decades as it is. We have seen other wrestlers drop moves from their repetoire for self-preservation over the years, like Kenta Kobashi and Keiji Muto in Japan cutting out the moonsault (or only using it very occasionally) and Daniel Bryan will have to modify his in-ring style if he ever returns to active competition. I was amazed that 'Taker was still diving over the top rope for as long as he did.

Add moves like that to the longer, more physically taxing matches that Undertaker has worked over the years and you can see why Kane's body is holding up better than the Deadman's as he approaches 50 years of age.

 

[wrestler36]

I'm not sure what your overall point really is.

Any wrestler could not take half of the bumps and have a really safe move set but would they be as big a legend?

Well if it's the difference between 25-0 or 30-0 and 21-1, then yes. For example, UT vs Shawn 1 was an amazing match. Take out the dive where the camera man failed to catch him and the UT almost killed himself, I don't think that would have taken anything away from the match. He could have saved some of his other big moves for strictly TV and PPV. Like I said, some of those big moves I saw him doing at non televised house shows that meant nothing. A lot of people complain about only seeing him once a year now.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Those are some good points, but there's also just the simple luck of the draw that plays a factor as well. The human body's simultaneously very durable and very fragile in that it can quite often come down to a few minor differences in numbers. For instance, Rusev sustained significant injury to his foot and it may not have happened at all if he landed at a different angle, landed at the same angle but without as much elevation, if he had been wearing wrestling boots, if he'd shifted his weight slightly so that he landed against part of the ring apron first to slow momentum, etc. In legitimate fights like boxing or MMA matches, the velocity in which a blow is landed coupled with the angle where it lands can mean the difference between sustaining an injury, being knocked out, a glancing blow that barely even connects or even accidental death.

In Taker's case, it could also be a combination of a variety of factors included the pressure and angle numbers I mentioned along with his physical size and the well known fact that Taker very often worked hurt and would put off taking time off to rest and/or have operations to fix whatever was wrong. I think the latter played a huge factor because Taker has long been highly respected for his commitment, professionalism and toughness; he's had such loyalty and an old school mentality that it's a hindrance. Couple all that with Taker getting older, and it's really something that's definitely caught up to him the past 5 or 6 years.

 

[OldSchoolWrestlingFan]

You made some great points about how his move set has destroyed his body & how Kane has taken extra care with his moves to help protect his health & I can't help but set back & laugh at the marks that have to say "Well this is RASSLIN' everybody beats the hell out of their body for us to be entertained", like we don't already know that - some people just have to be Captain Obvious to make themselves feel important.

And before you Marks point out I'm going to make an obvious point as well - I will go ahead and acknowledge it.......I think what has taken the greatest toll on Takers body is that he has been in more physically brutality matches than just about anybody on the roster - if you look at all of his Hell in a Cell, Casket, & Buried Alive matches (just to name a few) he has put his body through Hell, even if he didn't have the moveset he has - he really put on some brutal brutal matches

 

[Mustang Sally]

Anyways, I wonder if UT replaced or modified some of his moves, if he would have had a few more years left in him.

A viable question, which leads one to ask it's counterpart: had 'Taker performed without using those moves, would he have had the impact as a performer that he's enjoyed?

Sure, many top wrestlers have used ring psychology to keep fans at the edge of their seats. I've always believed Ric Flair in his prime could get an audience roaring with cheers and/or boos without torturing his body unnecessarily.....yet how many performers can do it the way Flair did?

I would say 'Taker needed the high impact stuff in addition to his other gifts to have built his career to legendary status. These were his signature moves and fans looked for them. A performer makes the decision sometime in his career (maybe several times) whether he's going to sacrifice his future health for his profession, or play it safe......and that's relatively safe; no one wrestles for years and gets away scot-free.

 

[Un-Bo-Lievable Jeff]

Well if it's the difference between 25-0 or 30-0 and 21-1, then yes. For example, UT vs Shawn 1 was an amazing match. Take out the dive where the camera man failed to catch him and the UT almost killed himself, I don't think that would have taken anything away from the match. He could have saved some of his other big moves for strictly TV and PPV. Like I said, some of those big moves I saw him doing at non televised house shows that meant nothing. A lot of people complain about only seeing him once a year now.

So you're asking a guy to half-ass it at a house show?

I understand exactly what you are getting at, but if you take away a lot of those moments from UT, is he the same person in the eyes of the fans? There is no way he can be.

 

[wrestler36]

A viable question, which leads one to ask it's counterpart: had 'Taker performed without using those moves, would he have had the impact as a performer that he's enjoyed?

Totally agree. But like I pointed to earlier, I went to a couple house shows in the mid to late 90s and I saw him doing all these big moves. If he did it in Chicago, I'm sure he did it Indy the night before, and Milwaukee the night after. If he saved those for strictly TV/PPVs, that's hundreds of big body hits that he would have prevented. Of course, I'm saying all this stuff in hindsight. In his 20s and 30s, he's probably not feeling it at all.

 

[chuckmdubya]

Great thread with a good discussion point that most wrestling fans would not even consider. Taker has done a lot of damage to himself with these offensive maneuvers. The knees and back have to be in rough shape. Think about up to 800 pounds (big show + undertaker) taking a two foot drop directly on the knee caps. Really makes you think about just how tough Mick Foley really is.

These high impact maneuvers were very important in building his legendary status so I guess its a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario.

But could he come back if he stopped using these? I don't know, I would think the damage is done and if he were to do that there would be those who would criticize his more conservative style. I doubt he or WWE would care, but its something he'd have to deal with.

 

[A11oftheLights]

You are all overlooking the fact that everybody is different. Even if Kane had thrown himself around the same way Taker had there is still a chance that Kane could still be going strong, sure its a significantly smaller chance but that is besides the point. Also you would have to look at how they treat themselves as well. Are they icing injuries, compressing them, resting properly (highly unlikely),etc. At the same time you have to look at their lifestyles, drinking alcohol for example can hurt the healing process as it masks the pain and slows down blood flow.

So while the moveset of the two performers obviously has a direct impact, you are all ignoring (or at least failing to mention) that no two individuals are going to react the same way to injuries & niggles

 

[Poop Master Flex]

In hindsight he could've added a few years onto his career but 24 years as The Undertaker has a hell of a lot to do with it as well. Also, lets not forget Taker's moveset was one of the reasons he got over so well, if he wasn't doing things like leaping across the ring hitting lariats, going old school and hitting tombstones he may not have got over as well and if he didn't get over as well as he did there's a very good chance he wouldn't have stuck around WWE for 25 years and he may not have been as well remembered as he currently is.

It's not that you don't make a point, changing his moveset would've helped things (which is one reason I think he started using Hell's Gate for a time) but if it would've affected his career in a negative way then my guess is he made the right decision. The guy wrestled semi-regularly for 20 years as The Undertaker, that is a feat in itself, especially in this day and age, especially for Taker's size and he will be well remembered long after his career is up, to me that makes up for the banged up knees and joints that you're going to feel later on in life.

I don't know about you but if I'm an NBA player I would much rather have Olajuwon's career than a decent 20 year one where I played every night.

 

[MartialHorror]

Nothing about this surprises me for reasons everyone else has pointed out. I've always heard that Kane was a bit of a safety nut, particularly from Jericho and CM Punk. So it's no surprise that his moveset is designed around this.

 

[Pedigree1]

Undertaker has been a staple in this industry forever and belongs IMO on the MT rushmore of pro wrestling.. No one ever with his size,agility,and athleticism has ever come down the pike.

Its amazing his body has held up for as long as it has. He has worked hurt,refusing to take time off to heal up and there is only so much the human body can endure.. He has adapted moves into his repertoire over the years,but he continually takes high risk moves even to this day even at 50 years old..

Hes too old school to change and is a legit tough guy.. Its something that has caught up with him in the last 6 or 7 years as his body can no longer handle a year round schedule. Nothing ever will be watered down by the deadman

 

[SSJPhenom]

This thread has been a great read and it has an interesting topic to say the least. For me though, Mustang Sally comes the closest to my mindset.

If 'Taker had not have done those moves like Old School, the flying clothesline, or the incredible suicide dive over the top rope; would he still be viewed the same way that we view him now?

When most fans talk about 'Taker in admiration, it usually goes like this: "For a 7 foot tall, 300+ lb man to do the things he does is incredible. How often do you see men his size do those types of things?" Grant it his physical attributes aren't the only things he's revered for, however, it's a major part of his legend.

I think what hindered his career more though, and some have already touched on this, was his tendency to work injured. We've all heard the stories. The man had almost half of his face crushed by Yokozuna and continued to work. He once taped a flack jacket to his body because his ribs were broken but yet, he was still going to perform. In his Hell in a Cell match against Mick Foley, he had a broken foot before the match even happened, however, not only did the man perform; but he went out and started the match climbing to the top of the cell on a broken foot. Most people only remember that match for the spots Foley took. Many forget that after those spots, the two of them still had a pretty good brutal match with thumb tacks and all. It's stories like that, that also make up the legend of the Undertaker that we know today. If he hadn't have done those things would he be in better health then he is today? Probably. I'd even say that its highly likely that he'd be in better health then he is today, however, would he still be the most respected performer in the history of this business? A man that commands respect both in the ring and out of it? The Phenom? That's the question that we should be asking ourselves.

'Taker once said that as long as he can continue to have good matches that he'll continue to wrestle. It's when a father says to their son, "Look son, that there is the Undertaker. You think such and such is good, you should've seen 'Taker when....." That's when he'll retire. I'm sure 'Taker doesn't regret for one second doing the things that we revere him for because if he did, they wouldn't have happened in the first place and if he doesn't have regrets then we shouldn't either.