Survivor Series '97 vs Bash at the Beach 2000

[IrishCanadian25]

This is a very simple question, analyzing two of the most bizarre pay per views in the history of major professional wrestling.

Which pay per view was a bigger clusterfuck - Survivor Series 1997 or Bash at the Beach 2000?

Survivor Series 1997

The swerve nobody knew was coming - The Montreal Screwjob. A main event well-known for being the thing that ended Vince McMahon Jr. the promoter, and launched Mr. McMahon the character. The moment that caused Bret Hart to refuse to work with the WWF/E for YEARS, and started the issues with Owen Hart into motion. It goes on and on.

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Bash at the Beach 2000

Hulk Hogan invokes his "creative clause" to refuse to put over Jeff Jarrett in their match, instead insisting that he go over to keep his character from looking weak and wins the WCW title. Vince Russo, head booker, tells Jarrett to go to the ring like everything is fine and lay down for Hogan. According to legend, the lay down was part work, part shoot. The Russo promo and the decision to have Booker T go over Jarrett later that night was a full shoot, resulting in Hogan never appearing on WCW TV again and suing for defamation.

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I am on the fence here, so it's YOUR job to convince me - which was the bigger mess? Survivor Series for the unofficial start to the attitude era, or Bash at the Beach for possibly the final death wail of WCW?

 

[Shocky]

The Vince Russo clusterfuck was a much bigger clusterfuck. The reason why the Screwjob isn't, because it was a perfectly laid out plan from beginning to end. Vince McMahon had all of his cards in his hands, and no one but a select few knew about it. Mcmahon was to be the one and only guy responsible for the entire thing, and he knew the end game before it even started.

Bash at the Beach 2000 simply seemed like a cluster fuck, and even to this day no one knows what truly happened. All we know for certain is that Vince Russon was involved with trying to push Hogan out the door and somehow at the end of it Booker T becomes the champion? Huh, I'm still confused after just writing that.

 

[klunderbunker]

I'll take BatB 2000.

Shawn and Bret at least had a real match with an ending that while it didn't make sense, was at least an ending. The fans were told they were going to see Bret vs. Shawn and they saw Bret vs. Shawn. It was a last second decision that has been debated for ages, but at the end of it all the one thing that's hard to argue is that Bret and Shawn both tried to play fair. Shawn was a pawn in the game and Bret thought what he was going to do was legit.

Turning our attention 3 years later, Hogan didn't play at all. He bitched and whined until he got his way and in turn, Jarrett and I'm assuming Russo and others handled it completely wrong. WCW was in dire straights already and that match truly was the last nail in the coffin for them. A worked thing like that is one thing, but to air the promo that was aired by Russo should never happen in front of the fans. It made it look like WCW was dying which it was, but you don't tell the fans that. Shawn Michaels is criticized a lot for playing politics and while I like Shawn, he certainly has. However, as far as the average fans go, they don't know about it because it's backstage. Hogan, Jarrett and Russo took it on stage, which should never be done.

 

[Mr. TM]

Clusterfuck- Bash at the Beach

The Screwjob was a massive plan laid out perfectly by the WWE. Vince McMahon knew what he was doing, and he knew how Bret was going to react. He had it all under control. The fans expected Bret to wreck havoc, and that is what he did. It was kept hidden from the audience (until later when it became public what had happened.)

The BatB of course was a mess. It was a title match that never happened on Pay Per View. It was the companies biggest start walking out. Vince had total control of the story line, Russo had none. He had to cut a promo, full of emotion, full of cursive language that did nothing for his cause.

The WWE lost some fans to WCW possibly, those following Bret or who were disgusted. The Bash left no fans left for the WCW, and was the defining moment in the death of WCW.

 

[Pimpin]

Bash At The Beach was clearly the bigger clusterfuck here cause WCW was in it's dying days as it is, the politics there had already taken it's toll & like KB said Hogan & Jarrett match wasn't really a match at all. At least the screwjob had an entertaining match & the decision that everybody knows what happened during the match was a last second decision.

 

[horsemen4ver]

No doubt Survivor Series 1997 was the biggest Clusterbuck ever. It was unknown to everybody to both fans and WWF wrestlers and other employees at that time. It was such a HUGE moment for the business at that time. It litterally could have put Mcmahon out of business when he did that move. Every one was in shock it is still proven today that was a much bigger moment in wrestling history because 12 years later it is still being talked about, and will be talked about for years to come

 

[richardleaf20]

They were definitely both clusterfucks, but Bash at the Beach meant nothing in wrestling's history, as WCW was already on its way to abomination. With Survivor Series, at least many great things came out of it: the Mr. McMahon character, the feuds he had with Stone Cold, The Rock, Hulk Hogan, Shawn Michaels, and many others; and it still talked about and debated to this day, which should show you how significant this point in history was.

 

[A.J.]

Without a question the biggest cluster fuck was Bash at the Beach 2000. I can remember watching that pay-per-view and thinking to myself, "what the hell is going on here." I think I was back in Jr. High when that went down and at the time I could not belie what was happening and it just seemed to fake, if fake is even the word to use here. The layout from when Russo appeared just went from ok why is Russo here to what the hell is go on here it made no sense/ If anything it just showed how bad WCW had become and that their end was coming sooner then they might had expected.

The Survivor Series "Screw Job" is a beautiful piece of work by McMahon and his few select people who knew about it. I would not call it a clusterfuck for what came from it, but Bash at the Beach is a cluster fuck because who knows what was to come from it and what came from it that evening was a complete utter joke. Russo spelling his guts for the whole world to see was pointless and giving Booker the title from Jarrett was even more of a joke as Booker lost earlier that night.

 

[tyler.durden]

i actually liked the clusterfuck at bash 2000. usually we only get to read about wrestling's backstage news/politics since everything on tv was scripted. seeing hogan's confused look on his face when jarrett laid down was gold! and seeing russo rip apart hogan was even better. (lol at the "hogan memorial belt" comment!) obviously, i'm not a hogan or russo fan by any means. but what russo said about hogan was pretty accurate (fast forward to hbk/hogan feud).

but getting back on topic, bash was definitely more of a mess than survivor series, since the whole ppv was affected/changed. whereas for the survivor series, nothing happened until the last 5 min of the ppv. and looking back, bash was a downfall to wcw, whereas survivor series led the wwf to what it is today.

 

[LEGEND KILLER]

i watched the HBK Bret Hart Survivor Series Masterpiece and masterpiece it is!! vince did no wrong but protect his company and its image. I was and still am a HUGE Bret Hart fan however what would WWE er F look like that Monday night on Nitro had Bret showed up with the WWF belt? Similar to when Ric WOOOO Flair showed up on WWF programing proclaming himself as "real worlds champion". Hence Vince did what was right for his business putting forth a great match with a jaw-dropping ending...

As per Bash At The Beach....i didnt watch this event however read what happened. Jarrett laying down for Hogan was just plain stupid...if he is that big a baby let him be the mid-carder baby he is...FYI as controdictory as this sounds i was a Jarrett fan but he isnt more than a mid-carder at best but a damn entertaining one back to the J-A double R- E double T etc days....Vince Russo is a bafoon and a testimate of that is where is he now?..

The ultimate answer is look at the main characters then in the WWF "screwjob" Shawn Micheals, HHH, Vince Mcmahon and compare that to the main characters in WCW Vince Russo, Jeff Jarrett, Hogan....

Vince runs the best and most entertaining company in the industry...
Shawn is still 1 of the best pure wrestlers period!
HHH is still the best powerhouse in the wrestling industry period!

Russo is ??? MIA???? u suck russo....
Jarrett heads TNA the second best? worst? whatever the new WCW.....washed up (jarrett, steiner, sting etc....with a few newbees and fresher faces Angle, Booker Morgan...etc) TNA has NO direction so with or without its "stars" its going nowhere anytime fast....TNA without Booker, Angle, Christan (already gone)....what else is really worth watching or better yet for those who actually pay for a payperview....WHO WOULD PAY 40-$50 to watch TNA? seriously and honestly as yourself this question people???

Hogan...i love u i miss u and i hope dearly u smarten up and realise you have enough money and give us TRUE WWF fans what we truly deserve 1 more glimse at Hulkamania at WRESTLEMANIA 25...you helped create the thing and you sure as heck deserve to be apart of the 25th anniversary of it!

 

[CVagts]

The Bash at the Beach clusterf was definitely the bigger of the two. They were both shoots that were designed to backstab one of the company's flagship wrestlers, but at least with Survivor Series, they were able to turn it into a positive (the creation of Mr. McMahon as one of the biggest heels in the company, and to this day he can easily achieve heat among the best in the company). With WCW, although it's true that it achieved a positive as well (launching Booker T. into main-event status, where he belonged), it was just another one of Russo's swerves and shoots that ended up just being muddled and confusing.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I have to laugh at anyone who claims the Survivor Series is even that big of a deal. I mean, it's not like we haven't driven that topic into the ground or anything.. but come the fuck on.

It wasn't a screwjob, it was one guy (Bret Hart) being unwilling to work with a company that he was fucking leaving. Hardly a screwjob, more like a selfish little baby who didn't wanna do the right thing and give up the Championship he had, via any other way than.. "Whelp, here you go.. you didn't pin me or anything, but I'm gonna pretty much leave an uncrowned Champion so I can possibly later throw that back in your face." (ie. NOT a screwjob.)

If anything, it was one man's unwillingness to do his job. Pretty much like you working at McDonald's and being told to work on Fries, then telling your boss you don't wanna.. YOU DON'T HAVE THE OPTION TO NEGOTIATE IT!

Now then, the real screwjob was Bash at the Beach. Why? Because that wasn't about someone leaving the company. That was just about someone feeling his legacy would be hurt, by laying down for someone he willingly felt was inferior to him.

Hulk Hogan's ego overloaded his actual career on this situation. He didn't understand that it was in the best interest for the company, to attempt pushing someone that needed it. But the real screwjob was whoever actually gave him the right to have a clause in his contract, to back out of a scripted finish.

I get that he's Hulk Hogan, but are you fucking kidding me? It's not like he's BIGGER than the entire industry. Just because he's Hulk fucking Hogan doesn't give him the right to (at last minute, I assume) change the way an entire storyline is meant to go. Not to mention pretty much tarnish his entire name right then and there by willingly, and more or less (albeit he didn't want it to be) publicly showed the world he was unwilling to put over other talent to help them. (ie. selfish prick)

People bitch and moan about the Triple H's and the Shawn Michaels', but last time I checked.. they still put over talent. For fuck sake, Triple H. LOST to the Brooklyn Brawler on a Smackdown once in like 2000, or around that time. You can't get anymore UNselfish than that.

If anything though, I'm happy the Bash at the Beach screwjob went down, because it gave us better Main Event matches between Jeff Jarrett, Booker T., Scott Steiner and others.

 

[plop44]

Though BatB was clearly the bigger mess, I'm confused why more people don't respect Russo for this. I never was a big Russo fan, especially when he was in WCW, but he at least was sticking up for the guys that worked hard for that company like Jarret, Booker, Benoit, etc. and at least tried to explain to the fans what a piece of garbage guys like Hogan and Nash were backstage because their egos were out of control. Also, I got to believe that Russo realized the state of WCW, and perhaps this was his attempt to try and win over the fans (though it failed miserably) and try to push the Jarrets and Bookers maybe moving to a new age of WCW (again a failure). I think Russo did this on purpose because he knew the ship was sinking and had to do something drastic.

 

[MisterRob]

Though BatB was clearly the bigger mess, I'm confused why more people don't respect Russo for this. I never was a big Russo fan, especially when he was in WCW, but he at least was sticking up for the guys that worked hard for that company like Jarret, Booker, Benoit, etc. and at least tried to explain to the fans what a piece of garbage guys like Hogan and Nash were backstage because their egos were out of control. Also, I got to believe that Russo realized the state of WCW, and perhaps this was his attempt to try and win over the fans (though it failed miserably) and try to push the Jarrets and Bookers maybe moving to a new age of WCW (again a failure). I think Russo did this on purpose because he knew the ship was sinking and had to do something drastic.

Why would people respect Russo for this? That wasn't just the biggest clusterfuck there is, but it was also the most unprofessional thing someone could do and completely shows the lack of common sense Russo has. Yes, people can say Hogan's a selfish prick for using his creative control.. but he was allowed to have creative control and so he can use it anytime he wants, its in his contract. Others shouldn't have been stupid enough to allow him to have that kind of control. But it could've been handled far differently and far better then Russo did, and the fact it happened the way it did tarnished any kind of value or credibility the World championship could've had. Its a complete lack of intelligence to, on Pay per view, have the talent you're trying to push as a credible champion and wrestler (and I can't say I would ever feel that way about Jarrett anyway) lay down in the middle of the ring and to treat the entire situation like spiteful children. Then to come back out and go on a rant, ladden with vulgarity, was totally unneeded. It solved nothing, it proved nothing, and it just made WCW look like garbage. It made Russo look like he'd lost complete control of things, which he had, so what would make anyone respect that?

You didn't see Vince McMahon overdramatizing the "screw job" like a child, or going on a whiney rant about Bret Hart. He turned it into a storyline, used it to his advantage in a way that was best for business.. which proves the difference between McMahon and Russo quite clearly.

Bash at the Beach was by far the bigger clusterfuck, and benefitted nothing and no one.

 

[DC24]

I have to laugh at anyone who claims the Survivor Series is even that big of a deal. I mean, it's not like we haven't driven that topic into the ground or anything.. but come the fuck on.

It wasn't a screwjob, it was one guy (Bret Hart) being unwilling to work with a company that he was fucking leaving. Hardly a screwjob, more like a selfish little baby who didn't wanna do the right thing and give up the Championship he had, via any other way than.. "Whelp, here you go.. you didn't pin me or anything, but I'm gonna pretty much leave an uncrowned Champion so I can possibly later throw that back in your face." (ie. NOT a screwjob.)

If anything, it was one man's unwillingness to do his job. Pretty much like you working at McDonald's and being told to work on Fries, then telling your boss you don't wanna.. YOU DON'T HAVE THE OPTION TO NEGOTIATE IT!

Now then, the real screwjob was Bash at the Beach. Why? Because that wasn't about someone leaving the company. That was just about someone feeling his legacy would be hurt, by laying down for someone he willingly felt was inferior to him.

Hulk Hogan's ego overloaded his actual career on this situation. He didn't understand that it was in the best interest for the company, to attempt pushing someone that needed it. But the real screwjob was whoever actually gave him the right to have a clause in his contract, to back out of a scripted finish.

I get that he's Hulk Hogan, but are you fucking kidding me? It's not like he's BIGGER than the entire industry. Just because he's Hulk fucking Hogan doesn't give him the right to (at last minute, I assume) change the way an entire storyline is meant to go. Not to mention pretty much tarnish his entire name right then and there by willingly, and more or less (albeit he didn't want it to be) publicly showed the world he was unwilling to put over other talent to help them. (ie. selfish prick)

People bitch and moan about the Triple H's and the Shawn Michaels', but last time I checked.. they still put over talent. For fuck sake, Triple H. LOST to the Brooklyn Brawler on a Smackdown once in like 2000, or around that time. You can't get anymore UNselfish than that.

If anything though, I'm happy the Bash at the Beach screwjob went down, because it gave us better Main Event matches between Jeff Jarrett, Booker T., Scott Steiner and others.

Are you fucking stupid; didn't Vince do the same thing to Bret you accused Hogan of doing changing the outcome. Did you forget Shawn didn't want drop the title Bret at Wrestlemania earlier that year. So that would be a reason he didn't want to drop the belt to Shawn plus he agreed he lose the belt to him the next night just not in Canada its on tape just in case you forgot. Why didn't HHH drop the belt to Jeff Hardy humm instead he loses to Edge just have Jeff Hardy beat him the next month. Hulk Hogan put over who needed to be put over I'm sorry but double J just wasn't one of them.

 

[klunderbunker]

You're overlooking one important thing. In all of those WWF moments, it NEVER involved someone coming to the middle of the ring and laying down, making the whole thing seem fake. Not once. WIth Vince, he turned it into a great character in Mr. McMahon. With Hogan, he left. He was an ass and he left because he didn't want to put Jarrett over. Look at all those Shawn matches, HHH matches, Hart matches. What do they have in common? They were matches. We saw a match out of it and it stayed backstage other than the very end of a single match. WCW pulled the curtain back and we saw what really happens backstage, which should never happen. Ever.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Are you fucking stupid;

Nope. Clinical tests have proven I am infact, not stupid.

didn't Vince do the same thing to Bret you accused Hogan of doing changing the outcome.

Hmm, well there was that one defining difference between Hulk Hogan and Vince McMahon.. what was it, what was it, what was it.. Ohhhhh.. that's right..

Hulk fucking Hogan wasn't the fucking owner of the company, and he shouldn't of had any fucking right to pick and decide who won and lost what match.

Did you forget Shawn didn't want drop the title Bret at Wrestlemania earlier that year.

Well, incase you actually missed my other post on Bret Hart and the Screwjob, (you know, when you were busy questioning whether or not I was "fucking stupid") I'd actually said that Bret could've been the bigger person and proved to the world that he was infact better than Shawn Michaels.. by understanding that he isn't bigger than the company.

So Shawn didn't want to put Hart over at Mania. And Shawn will always take shit for it. That's not, however, in discussion right now.

But Bret Hart not deciding to be an adult and take his own responsibility, is.

So that would be a reason he didn't want to drop the belt to Shawn plus he agreed he lose the belt to him the next night just not in Canada its on tape just in case you forgot.

Maybe you should rewatch those tapes then. Because the main one I seen, you know, the one titled "Bret Hart: Wrestling w/ Shadows".. had Hart clearly stating that he was willing to just either "hand" the title over, or have H.B.K., or anyone else, win it in a Battle Royal the following night, after Hart "forfeited" the title.

Once again.. that's Bret, not wanting to do the "right thing" in passing the torch, and instead wanting to take whatever legacy he had left, with him in a selfish manner, to the rival company. If was never going to happen.

Why didn't HHH drop the belt to Jeff Hardy humm instead he loses to Edge just have Jeff Hardy beat him the next month.

Well, I suppose you make a point.. you know, if not losing to Hardy could equal the shear UNSELFISHNESS of losing to a pure jobber, would've.

Hulk Hogan put over who needed to be put over I'm sorry but double J just wasn't one of them.

So, all of this boils down to you being a Hulkamaniac who isn't willing to listen to his idol being slandered? Well it's a bit too late for that.

And, uhm, yes.. Jeff Jarrett was one of them. You know, considering he was the Main guy that was leading the New Blood at that time. (ie. He was their top heel) So yes, Hogan should've put Jarrett over.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I dont really think there is any argument here. Its easily BAB. You DO NOT EVER break down the Wall of kayfabe. No matter, what, no matter how, no matter who, you just can NOT do that. Im shocked WCW didnt fold right fucking there. The fact that Hogan refused to job is irrelevant to everything else. Also, for all intensive purposes, who do you all REALLY knows more about booking and the buisness, Hulk Hogan, or vince fucking Russo?? It may be somewhat of an obtuse comparison, but I can garuntee you, Hulk Hogan would have NEVER done what Russo did that night. The screwjob damage was kept mostly contained, while Russo commited the absolute ULTIMATE sin in the buisness of pro wrestling.

 

[CVagts]

I dont really think there is any argument here. Its easily BAB. You DO NOT EVER break down the Wall of kayfabe. No matter, what, no matter how, no matter who, you just can NOT do that. Im shocked WCW didnt fold right fucking there.

The worst part is that that wasn't even the first time WCW pulled up the curtain like that. If I recall, Sting and Hogan did it at a Halloween Havoc one year (I want to say 1999), but it wasn't because Hogan wouldn't job; it was just part of whatever angle they were running.

And let's not forget Buff's brief "I'm not going to job" phase where he had fake matches with La Parka and Riggs.

 

[hoffman40]

I don't work in the Wrestling business at all, but I do know that one of the unwritten rules is that you never let what happens backstage spill out on stage. While both instances were truly shocking. Bash at the Beach was mortifying! Survivor Series at least was a good PPV. First off, they never put on the match they had advertised. Hogan v. Jarrett never happened...people in WWE have lost there jobs over things like that! To Russo's credit he tried to recitify it by giving Jarrett v. Booker T but that wasn't what the fans had bought their tickets for. Not only that Russo took his vendetta out from behind the curtain. Vince Russo and the AOL/Time Warner merger are what really killed WCW...financially and creatively. While "The Screwjob" was indeed a clusterfuck, Vince McMahon was smart enough to let the advertised match go on as planned. What happened at the end had to be done to ensure a WWE future and I don't think that Vince truly grasped what that moment meant for the future of the business until the fallout. In essence, Survivor Series 97 benefitted its company and Bash at the Beach 2000 killed its company. I think that answers your question.

 

[DC24]

Nope. Clinical tests have proven I am infact, not stupid.



Hmm, well there was that one defining difference between Hulk Hogan and Vince McMahon.. what was it, what was it, what was it.. Ohhhhh.. that's right..

Hulk fucking Hogan wasn't the fucking owner of the company, and he shouldn't of had any fucking right to pick and decide who won and lost what match.



Well, incase you actually missed my other post on Bret Hart and the Screwjob, (you know, when you were busy questioning whether or not I was "fucking stupid") I'd actually said that Bret could've been the bigger person and proved to the world that he was infact better than Shawn Michaels.. by understanding that he isn't bigger than the company.

So Shawn didn't want to put Hart over at Mania. And Shawn will always take shit for it. That's not, however, in discussion right now.

But Bret Hart not deciding to be an adult and take his own responsibility, is.



Maybe you should rewatch those tapes then. Because the main one I seen, you know, the one titled "Bret Hart: Wrestling w/ Shadows".. had Hart clearly stating that he was willing to just either "hand" the title over, or have H.B.K., or anyone else, win it in a Battle Royal the following night, after Hart "forfeited" the title.

Once again.. that's Bret, not wanting to do the "right thing" in passing the torch, and instead wanting to take whatever legacy he had left, with him in a selfish manner, to the rival company. If was never going to happen.



Well, I suppose you make a point.. you know, if not losing to Hardy could equal the shear UNSELFISHNESS of losing to a pure jobber, would've.



So, all of this boils down to you being a Hulkamaniac who isn't willing to listen to his idol being slandered? Well it's a bit too late for that.

And, uhm, yes.. Jeff Jarrett was one of them. You know, considering he was the Main guy that was leading the New Blood at that time. (ie. He was their top heel) So yes, Hogan should've put Jarrett over.

Well by Hogans contract he could decide if he won or loss; Vince gave him that freedom when he came back in 02. It doesn't matter if Vince is the owner wrong is wrong case in point if Hogan let somebody fall from the rafters and die with faulty epuipment should he go to jail; but because its Vince its OK. I watch both events and Bash at the 2000 was a shitty PPV before that happened; what Vince did was embarass Bret in front of his family and country which is wrong I'm sorry; would you rather your co-worker or boss back stab you.