Superheavyweights vs Cruiserweights

[Vintage Nick]

We've seen this for a while now: Cruiserweight (ex. Jaime Noble) comes out to the ring and either talks crap or waits at the corner. Superheavweight (ex. Big Show) comes out and basically squashes the cruiserweight in 3 seconds. Now, I really don't see the point in this when Superheavyweights go against Cruiserweight stars or local jobbers and just destroy them in less than a minute. Is it supposed to look dominating? "Oh look, I beat a guy that's smaller than me, I'm awesome!" I know that's to try and draw heat, but after they do it over and over and over again, it gets really irritating.

What are your guys' thoughts on this issue? Should Superheavyweights try to look "dominant" by being booked against guys that are less than half their size?

 

[klunderbunker]

This is something that I'll be starting a new thread on in the near future. Jobbers are a lost art in wrestling today which are desperately missing. There's an old addage in sports that says a good team beats all the teams they're supposed to and most of the games they could win. I think this holds true for wrestling as well. Take the example you jsut gave: Big Show vs. Noble. Show is a main event player, Noble is lucky if he gets on tv once a month. Noble isn't supposed to stand a chance against Show, but while Show doesn't really gain anything from beating him, it's expected of him to do so.

Also, a single shot from someone like Show is equal to something close to 10 of Noble's, so Show is supposed to be able to destroy someone like it's nothing. While he can't brag about it, he has to do it. It's a great case of having everything to lose and nothing to gain.

 

[Nate DaMac]

my problem isn't with something like big show squashing noble. my issue is with people like kozlov squashing nameless jobbers week after week. sure it draws heat, but after a while it starts to draw channel changing. once in a while i understand, but for someone who has main evented ppvs to be murdering nobodies week in and week out baffles me. i give a pass to newcomers, for about a month, but if they aren't wrestling people who are actually employed by the company, the become the moment wher i go make a sandwich.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

It's so formulaic, and indeed, very old. The entire process of the SHW squashing the CW harkens back to the days of Andre the Giant, who often received handicap matches against 2, 3, or even 4 foes because it was so unrealistic for him to wrestle just one man.

And it's been consistent through history. Big Van Vader was fed ham 'n eggars in WCW as well as Japan. When one of the jobbers tried to go after Vader and put himself over with hard punches and the like, Vader hit him with a backbreaker, and when the jobber tried to make the backbreaker look wrong by fighting it, it nearly resulted in the jobbers back getting broken.

Yokozuna's first PPV match was against Virgil. We can stop there.

Even Ludvig Borga, whom I often compare Kozlov to, wrestled his first PPV match with former Intercontinenal Champ Marty Jannetty, and it was a squash.

Personally, I feel there are plenty of other underused SHW techniques to make them look dominant without week-in, week-out CW squashes.

1. Staying on one's feet. When Yokozuna first started off, we were reminded that he had not been knocked off his feet in a singles match (Savage knocked him down in the Royal Rumble, only to hit the elbow drop, try to PIN Yoko, and get bench pressed so hard he flew over the top rope and to the floor). So instead of wrestling matches, Yoko started coming out and challenging men to knock him off his feet. For WEEKS they failed, until Hacksaw Jim Duggan came out on Superstars and pulled it off. The crowd went ballistic with the USA Chants. As Duggan celebrated, Yoko got up and attacked Duggan, eventually hitting 4 Banzai drops - the last of which was with the flag draped over Duggan's body, with the blood from his (kayfabe) cracked ribs staining the white stripes. Epic moment, and BOY was Yoko over as a top heel after that.

2. The All-Mighty Bodyslam. I won't even bog you down with the Yokozuna / Lex Luger story, you've heard it. But recall the Andre the Giant / Big John Studd feud. They had a $10,000 Bodyslam Challenge, with the heel Studd making claims for MONTHS that he could slam Andre, and that Studd himself was the true "Giant" in WWF. Well, suffice to say, Andre won that special match after slamming Studd.

3. The Lift-Off. One thing that put Mark Henry over to me - as well as Crush in the weeks leading up to the Intrepid Bodyslam Challenge - was seeing these athletes perform legitimate feats of strength. That's even more important now that pro wrestling isn't hidden under the whole "the matches are real" premise. Watching Mark Henry deadlift a car off the ground gave him a whole new aura. Watching Ludvig Borga, a Finnish Powerlifting Champion, deadlift over 700 lbs, made me fear him. What's wrong with this technique? Let the SHW's impress fans with weightlifting / powerlifting / posedowns. It's a hell of a lot better than a diva-dance off, as you will (sadly) see on Smackdown this week.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

I don't have too much of an issue with Super Heavyweights squashing Cruiserweights, but I feel there is no rhyme and reason for doing it these days, the last time this worked was in '05 when Show was beating tag teams in handicap matches week in and week out, but Kozlov (as already stated) beats a bunch of nobodies and is all of a sudden a top contender for the title (Kozlov didn't beat anyone who was a main eventer or even a decent mid-carder but all of a sudden he deserves a title match).

Many superheavyweights have shown that with the right booking, it can really help build Super Heavyweights into looking like an indestructable force (which is good because Big guys should rely on power to win, it's what gives superheavyweights the edge in matches), like Andre and King Kong Bundy.

 

[mont3818]

Well how about this: Realistically Noble MIGHT stand a chance against Big Show.

What can Show do? Strong punches? Higher slams? And we pretty much know what to expect out of him.
Noble is now a veteran, he's smarter than that. Faster. Able to maneuver himself better.

So the whole idea of Show squashing Noble is silly. It does nothing for the Big Show and nothing for Noble.
Gets Show heat? Well its all pretty predictable and doesn't make me hate Show anymore.
If anything all it does is remind me "Oh hey Big Shows on Raw" until they figure out how to best use him.

I'm not saying a match between Show and Noble would be even, but it certainly wouldn't be so one-sided.

And if Show would squash a guy his size, that would be more impressive. Just like if a crusierweight would squash another crusierweight.

 

[LigerBomb]

3. The Lift-Off. One thing that put Mark Henry over to me - as well as Crush in the weeks leading up to the Intrepid Bodyslam Challenge - was seeing these athletes perform legitimate feats of strength. That's even more important now that pro wrestling isn't hidden under the whole "the matches are real" premise. Watching Mark Henry deadlift a car off the ground gave him a whole new aura. Watching Ludvig Borga, a Finnish Powerlifting Champion, deadlift over 700 lbs, made me fear him. What's wrong with this technique? Let the SHW's impress fans with weightlifting / powerlifting / posedowns. It's a hell of a lot better than a diva-dance off, as you will (sadly) see on Smackdown this week.

I agree whole heartily. It has been a long while since we've seen wrestlers do meaningful feats of strength -either Vs., or solo- or even show their personal training regimens and styles. I remember the build up to Hart/HBK with the clips of their individual training which really built up the story for me. Also the vingetes for HHH's return after injury were memorable for their showing of Hunter training by doing wind sprints and truck tire flip/jumps in an effort to get back into "fighting" shape. While most everyone agrees that there isn't legit competition in pro wrestling it would still be nice to see the wrestlers being portrayed as the highly conditioned athletic people they mostly are. Many work ridiculously hard to look and perform the way they do and it would be refreshing to see their hard work be recognized. I think it would add real meaning to fueds and get fans to emotionally invest in matches.

In keeping with the topic, much like in mma or martial art competitions, I would prefer if weight classes were upheld a little better, especially in regards to the extreme ends of the spectrum of Super Heavy Weights Vs Light/Cruiser/Jr. Heavy Weights, so as to not waste the time of the viewers or participants. As already mentioned, of course Big Show should be able to squash Noble. The viewer already knows/assumes this. Therefore, let's not waste the viewer's time and let's not make Jamie Noble take the unnecessary high impact back bumps which in the end doesn't get him over or add to Show's established credibility.

Regarding story lines, the only time SHW vs. CW should really be done is to "punish" the Cruiser Weight, or to really put him over with an unexpected, or thoroughly hard fought win. I've always envisioned a yearly match up of the best Heavy Weight wrestler and the best Jr. Heavy Weight wrestler to determine the pound for pound better man being a match that could have a great build with the potential to draw really well. As long as it didn't happen too often or be a total mismatch of styles, size, and abilities these types of matches could actually be a somewhat rare treat that really holds the fans' interest.

Were the Cruiser Weight or Light Heavy weight Title still around I think it would be a tremendous rub for the holder to challenge the World/WWE champ to a match at 'Mania or SS to see who is truly the best wrestler in all of WWE. Even if he lost it would make the guy look fantastic. One of my favorite Jushin Thunder Liger matches was my namesake's bout with an Austin-esque Mutoh Keiji. Even though Liger lost (barely), it added to his already impressive rep of a guy who could flat out go with, and potentially beat, the best of the best in any weight class. And that is a much better use of a weight and height mismatch than a pointless squash match.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I remember the build up to Hart/HBK with the clips of their individual training which really built up the story for me. Also the vingetes for HHH's return after injury were memorable for their showing of Hunter training by doing wind sprints and truck tire flip/jumps in an effort to get back into "fighting" shape.

I'll give you one better. The Rock vs Brock Lesnar, Summerslam. The looks at their training styles. Brock on the farm lifting EVERYTHING, muscles growing atop muscles. Him getting into the giant bucket of ice and never so much as flinching. Fans watched that, and just said "whoa..." All of a sudden, Brock went from being overmatched to a slight favorite.

 

[bxbigshow]

SHW squash matches should only be against jobbers/indy talent that you will never see again. It shows the dominance of the SHW and harkens back to the days of 'enhancement talent'.

When someone like Show takes on a Noble/Chavo/any CW on the roster, I would like to see the CW TRY to win. If former WHC Rey Mysterio put on good matches (back and forths at least) with Show, then these guys who are Superstars in WWE's mind (or they wouldn't be on the roster) should at least put up some sort of fight.

Run around the ring, try to take the legs out, get Show bent over and dropkick his head. Make him angry so when he catches you, the beating has meaning. It doesn't hurt Show at all as he'll still destroys his opponent and Noble looks like someone who at least wants to be taken seriously.

I mean really why come out on the mic and say you can beat any/everyone. But because you face someone huge you give in? Why bother with the promo?

Seperately...

It's a hell of a lot better than a diva-dance off, as you will (sadly) see on Smackdown this week.

I try not to read spoilers, and I've done a good job at it. There was no need to tell me what I'll see tomorrow in this post. Just my opinion.

 

[LigerBomb]

I'll give you one better. The Rock vs Brock Lesnar, Summerslam. The looks at their training styles. Brock on the farm lifting EVERYTHING, muscles growing atop muscles. Him getting into the giant bucket of ice and never so much as flinching. Fans watched that, and just said "whoa..." All of a sudden, Brock went from being overmatched to a slight favorite.

Excellent example! Basically you want to prove that these guys (and gals) really work hard to excel at their chosen craft and should be seen in a way that give the matches -and the performers themselves- some form of relevance and credibility. That said, I don't want to see bodybuilding type "training" al la an oiled up HHH or Batista doing a million bicep curls while grunting in a mirror. Rather, I gained a fair bit of respect for Batista after seeing some of his escrima stick training vids on Youtube, and wondered why WWE never capitalized on that aspect of his training or overall athletic ability. Certainly it would promote him as a more well rounded and capable competitor. As an aside, in the videos he was being trained by a guy half his size who was able to best him in various ways and was a prime example of a much smaller person being able to put down a a larger opponent whenever he chose to do so. Likewise, some CWs can pound for pound be incredibly strong, fast, a legitimately physically/mentally tough people, that may easily posses the skills, strength and speed necessary to make them look at least marginally credible when facing SHW guys. Squashes are a waste and in this day and age probably doesn't draw money or move merch for either party.

 

[stillboy21]

For the cases of guys like Big Show, Kane, and Undertaker, the idea of having competition in the same class has been used so much over the years. The other week we had a Big Show vs. Undertaker match and they are in similar ranges of weight. A lot closer then Noble and Show. As for Koslov, he's the heaviest guy on ECW next to Mark Henry and they'll only get so many matches together (I hope they have a match now I'm thinking about it). And Khali has became the world's biggest homo chasing after Santina so we aren't gonna get a good match from him in awhile.
Those training videos are pretty cool though and they should do those more. But I've been thinking about the drop of the Cruiserweight title. If they brought that back then shouldn't the cross-weight matches become less frequent. It sucks that their always going to have squash matches like that but I think that just makes the matches like Rey vs Evan Bourne a better show.

 

[Vintage Nick]

Sorry for the bump, but it was advertised on the main page that...wait, better put this in spoilers.

Spoiler

On Superstars this week, it's Big Show vs....motherfuckingHornswoggle. Seriously?! Superheavyweight vs....a guy that's not even a cruiserweight?!