Someone intelligently refute this logic

Slyfox696

Excellence of Execution
When discussing the best wrestler ever, let's look at facts.


1) A wrestler is hired to entertain fans in order to make fans turn over their money to the promoter. His job is to entertain fans to make the promoter money.

Thus...

1a) The more fans a wrestler gets to give their money away, the better the wrestler is at doing his job.


2) Fans turning over their money to watch a wrestler is directly proportional to the entertainment value of the wrestler.

Thus...

2b) The more entertaining a wrestler is, the more fans will pay to see him.


Which leads us to our final conclusion...

3) The best wrestler is the one who does his job of entertaining fans so they will turn over their money to the promoter better than any other wrestler in the business.



I dare someone to challenge this thinking.
 
Gladly. The most entertaining person that gets the fans to turn over money to his or her promoter is the best sports entertainer, or in the WWE, the best "superstar." Hogan, Rock and Cena were/are great sports entertainers but they were never Olympians, all-American or held any legitimate amateur wrestling accolates prior to breaking into PRO-wrestling.

The real wrestlers are the Harts, the Angles, the Benoits, the Lesnars, the Guerreros, the Benjamins, the cream of the crop, the real wrestlers who can get it done in the ring and take pride in knowing they're real athletes. They are truly mat-ready, ring-aware and have psychology to pull off a match realistically and effortlessly. It's a naturally-born talent to them.

Then there are guys who are great wrestlers and entertainers, such as Austin, Michaels and Jericho to name a few.

The Ultimate Warrior is the best example as to why your logic is flawed. The man was a household name in the 90's, he drew but I DARE you to call him a great "wrestler" when it was guys like Savage and Rick Rude, actual GOOD wrestlers that made him look good in the ring. Then watch a classic like Kurt Angle vs. Lesnar, Michaels vs. Austin or Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart, then watch Hogan vs. Warrior or Hogan vs Rock and see the difference between a wrestler and a sports entertainer.
 
Gladly. The most entertaining person that gets the fans to turn over money to his or her promoter is the best sports entertainer, or in the WWE, the best "superstar." Hogan, Rock and Cena were/are great sports entertainers but they were never Olympians, all-American or held any legitimate amateur wrestling accolates prior to breaking into PRO-wrestling.

The real wrestlers are the Harts, the Angles, the Benoits, the Lesnars, the Guerreros, the Benjamins, the cream of the crop, the real wrestlers who can get it done in the ring and take pride in knowing they're real athletes. They are truly mat-ready, ring-aware and have psychology to pull off a match realistically and effortlessly. It's a naturally-born talent to them.

Then there are guys who are great wrestlers and entertainers, such as Austin, Michaels and Jericho to name a few.

The Ultimate Warrior is the best example as to why your logic is flawed. The man was a household name in the 90's, he drew but I DARE you to call him a great "wrestler" when it was guys like Savage and Rick Rude that made him look good in the ring.
Why were the Harts, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, etc. hired? Why did Vince McMahon hire those guys? For what purpose?

And just to step outside the realm of the WWE, why does ROH hire Bryan Danielson and Nigel McGuiness?
 
Why were the Harts, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, etc. hired? Why did Vince McMahon hire those guys? For what purpose?

And just to step outside the realm of the WWE, why does ROH hire Bryan Danielson and Nigel McGuiness?

To entertain the fans?
 
Oh, oh, oh, I know, I know!!


Because the fans liked them, and were willing to pay money to see them?
Precisely.


Which leads me back to my first statement.

3) The best wrestler is the one who does his job of entertaining fans so they will turn over their money to the promoter better than any other wrestler in the business.
 
I knew I should have put this in a non-spam forum.

And, what it leads me to is that Hulk Hogan is the greatest ever.



Anyways, I'm waiting for someone to defeat that logic.
 
Gladly. The most entertaining person that gets the fans to turn over money to his or her promoter is the best sports entertainer, or in the WWE, the best "superstar." Hogan, Rock and Cena were/are great sports entertainers but they were never Olympians, all-American or held any legitimate amateur wrestling accolates prior to breaking into PRO-wrestling.

The real wrestlers are the Harts, the Angles, the Benoits, the Lesnars, the Guerreros, the Benjamins, the cream of the crop, the real wrestlers who can get it done in the ring and take pride in knowing they're real athletes. They are truly mat-ready, ring-aware and have psychology to pull off a match realistically and effortlessly. It's a naturally-born talent to them.

Then there are guys who are great wrestlers and entertainers, such as Austin, Michaels and Jericho to name a few.

The Ultimate Warrior is the best example as to why your logic is flawed. The man was a household name in the 90's, he drew but I DARE you to call him a great "wrestler" when it was guys like Savage and Rick Rude, actual GOOD wrestlers that made him look good in the ring. Then watch a classic like Kurt Angle vs. Lesnar, Michaels vs. Austin or Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart, then watch Hogan vs. Warrior or Hogan vs Rock and see the difference between a wrestler and a sports entertainer.

Almost all of this post is completely wrong. A professional wrestler and a sports entertainer is the exact same thing.
 
Erik Watts?

Please how can you possibly say Erik Watts is better than this guy

BobbyDempseysmall.jpg


:lmao:
 
I knew I should have put this in a non-spam forum.

And, what it leads me to is that Hulk Hogan is the greatest ever.



Anyways, I'm waiting for someone to defeat that logic.

Who the hell is Hulk Hogan?! :headscratch:

I think you're confused with Horace Hogan, that badass from the nWo.
 
Pro-Wrestling is a buisness based in the virtue of entertainment, not wrestling. I say that with no ill will, because if it were based in the virtue of real wrestling(freestyle, greco/roman) then pro-wrestling would be out of luck as far as making money is concerned. I say that because Wrestlemania III headlining Cael vs Gable in a freestyle match would not have "gotten asses in seats" or garnered many ppv buys.
 
Pro-Wrestling is a buisness based in the virtue of entertainment, not wrestling. I say that with no ill will, because if it were based in the virtue of real wrestling(freestyle, greco/roman) then pro-wrestling would be out of luck as far as making money is concerned. I say that because Wrestlemania III headlining Cael vs Gable in a freestyle match would not have "gotten asses in seats" or garnered many ppv buys.

Thats a ditto if i ever saw one.
 
Well if I try I would bring up Bruno Sammartino and Billy Graham as possible to define as the Greatest ever because if you look at it inside the north-east when it was a Territory. The most dominant one in terms of respect because thats where every Wrestler wanted to get one run. Sammartino dominated for 11 years as champ. Billy Graham was the prototype from which Hulk Hogan came from. But they drew money and sold out MSG. So if they had the marketing genius of one Vincent Kennedy McMahon behind them I would assume that it is plausible that they would have been bigger than Hogan. Hogan was a product of his time. So it is difficult for it to be seen. And from memory Austin drew more for Vince than Hogan did.
 
Well, If I ever win a state lottery, non taxable to a Canadian like me, and use that $100,000,000 to buy Santino merchandise, that makes him the best ever?


Bad example, Santino IS the best ever.


Maybe I'll buy Carlito teddy bears instead.

Hogan, Austin, Rock, Flair, Godzilla... none of these guys ever grossed $100,000,000 in one year. That would make Carlito the best ever in these terms.
 
Why were the Harts, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, etc. hired? Why did Vince McMahon hire those guys? For what purpose?

To make the entertainers, such as Hogan, look good. Their main purpose is to make the entertainers look decent in the ring since they know how to carry a match. Aside from Bret Hart, none of the actual wrestlers in WWE have come close to the level of The Rock, Hogan, Cena or Austin.
 
What does "actual wrestlers" even mean? They know twenty different kinds of suplexes? They're really really good at applying armbars?
 
Well; I guess I'll take a shot at this 'ere little puzzle. Is there a prize?


  1. [1]A wrestler is hired to entertain fans in order to make fans turn over their money to the promoter. His job is to entertain fans to make the promoter money.

    [2]The more fans a wrestler gets to give their money away, the better the wrestler is at doing his job.

    [3]The more entertaining a wrestler is, the more fans will pay to see him.

    [4]The best wrestler is the one who does his job of entertaining fans so they will turn over their money to the promoter better than any other wrestler in the business.

1: Correct.

2: Correct.

3: BZZZZT! ERROR!

Whilst the logic that a wrestler is there to draw fans/money is sound; judging a wrestler's material worth exclusively on how highly he draws is flawed, and dare I say it, slightly naive.

You see the problem with your logic is that it's the same as saying that Dannial Radcliff (that kid who plays Harry Potter in the films) is the greatest actor of all time because all of his films (to which he was the 'top face' if you will) drew exceptional amounts of money.

A wrestlers capacity to draw fans and money is dictated by a large number of additional external variables outside of the talent of the individual in question. Just to rattle a short and by no means conclusive list off of the top of my head;

A wrestlers capacity to draw is effected by;

Booking: A wrestler who wins a lot will draw far batter than one who doesn't. To use your man Hogan as an example, then Hulkster was given a win/loss record not seen since Ed Louis, and to deny that this assisted him to get, and stay, over; is to kid ones self.
Similarly, a main eventer will pretty much always outdraw a mid carder. Since one has had the benefit of the push, and one hasn't. That doesn't instinctively mean that every main eventer is better then every mid carder. (If they'd given Batista's push to... I dunno... Snitsky, the ratings would have stayed more or less the same)

Gimmick: A small factor, but none the less noteworthy. A wrestler given a good gimmick is going to get over faster, and draw higher, than one with a bad gimmick. Since I used Hogan as my example in the last section, I'll call him up again. Hogan was an all conquering superhero and "real American". Do you think he'd have succeeded and become such an icon if he'd been given then gimmick of... "foot fetishist" or "man with bad teeth".

Market Variables: I don't know shit about how the market affects TV ratings or show attendance or the shifting of merchandise. But I'll bet my right arm that it does.

Product Quality: Year, I've gotten bored of my list so I'm jumping right ahead to the big one. A well written and produced show will draw higher than a crap one, regardless of talent. You could compile a roster of the greatest names throughout history, in there prime. And then hand complete creative control of the product over to... ... Snitsky; and your product would bomb. Probably.

4: Well with 3 chopped up into little pieces, and my attention span officially depleted, I don't much feel like going to town on 4 as well, so I'll just say that there is more a wrestler can do for a company than simply draw. He can for example, not be a dick backstage. A wrestler who draws to the moon is great, but not if he gets in the way of others and sabotages "their" ability to draw.

So year; that's my attempt at de-railing the Slyfox Express train of logic. Now all there is left to do is set back and see if the sofa on the tracks works, or if it just get's sliced in half.
 
To continue with what a few of the other people were saying, the amount of money a wrestler draws depends on a lot of things, not just raw entertainment power. I bet if that the great depression happened to be during the 1980s, then Hogan wouldn't have drawn a fraction of what he did.

Additionally, if say...Billy Graham had been a few years younger, or if Ultimate Warrior or Randy Savage would have been a few years older, they could have theoretically been 'Hulk Hogan.' they needed a big charasmatic guy to be their 'god' character babyface. Realistically Kevin Nash could have been Hulk Hogan if he was older.

Also what if Andre the Giant wouldnt have had gigantism or just never got discovered by a wrestling promoter. Hogan would have never faced him at WM III. Arguably, WM III MADE Hulk Hogan who he became. Beating someone who was, by nature of his physical presence, seemingly unbeatable, Hogan was made into a mega star. No Andre, no Hulk Hogan (as we know him today)

A lot of hogan's money drawing power was based on being at the right place at the right time and being booked properly at the proper time against the right people. The most entertaining wrestler in the world can only draw so much money without an opponent, the proper market or the proper build(booking build not physical build)
 

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