Should Vince be embracing the internet?

[Blade]

Last night, I was part of the Live Discussion for Night of Champions. The show was quite well received by the majority of people on this site. Until the end.
90% of the members on the website disliked, even hated, Jeff Hardy going over CM Punk as clean as possible.
Now, I know the IWC is the minority compared to the children and the casual fans. But there's still alot of us out there. And Vince obviously knows we exist or else he wouldn't try to swerve the hell out of us all the time.
With WWE's declining ratings, is it possible that members of the IWC are beginning to stop watching? Jeff Hardy, John Cena and Triple H. The 3 wrestlers most hated by the IWC. Also the 3 wrestlers who are getting the most exposure at the moment.
Also, streaming sites. Tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of people watch WWE shows and PPVs for free online. This is another factor for declining PPV buys. I know there's not much WWE could do about it. But even if they had a free stream on the WWE site that had advertisements during the show as if it was Raw or something. If WWE could persuade their fans to watch the streams on WWE.com instead of other free streaming sites, perhaps WWE wouldn't lose as much money.

I know I'm probably starting to sound crazy right now. But looking at the evidence, does the IWC have a bigger impact on ratings than we're aware of? Is it possible that Vince could ever take the IWC seriously as a group? Should he be taking advantage of the internet rather than seeing it as a threat?
And could there ever be a WWE PPV that pleases both the majority of the casual fans and the majority of the IWC?

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I dunno, it just seems to me that there are a number of members of the IWC that are simply impossible to please. You put on a good match, they complain because it's not an epic for the ages every time around. You give a guy a strap, he's held it too long if he's had it for 3 months. You have a guy lose a match, it's automatically the end of his push. You have a feud that lasts 2 months, it's already becoming stale. These are just some of the more common complaints/themes that I've seen and heard since I started contributing to the forums back in March.

So many fans today, this does include a sizable portion of the IWC, want instant gratification. Something epic has to happen at each ppv or the entire show was a dud. A lot of fans simply don't have the patience to be a wrestling fan and that really has a lot to do with the interenet. We can find out spoilers for storylines, potential matches, who goes over who, etc. weeks and even sometimes months before they happen. There's no surprise anymore really. Now while I'm not knocking the net, it's changed wrestling because some of the mystique is gone.

 

[SinCityBlitz]

I dunno, it just seems to me that there are a number of members of the IWC that are simply impossible to please. You put on a good match, they complain because it's not an epic for the ages every time around. You give a guy a strap, he's held it too long if he's had it for 3 months. You have a guy lose a match, it's automatically the end of his push. You have a feud that lasts 2 months, it's already becoming stale. These are just some of the more common complaints/themes that I've seen and heard since I started contributing to the forums back in March.

So many fans today, this does include a sizable portion of the IWC, want instant gratification. Something epic has to happen at each ppv or the entire show was a dud. A lot of fans simply don't have the patience to be a wrestling fan and that really has a lot to do with the interenet. We can find out spoilers for storylines, potential matches, who goes over who, etc. weeks and even sometimes months before they happen. There's no surprise anymore really. Now while I'm not knocking the net, it's changed wrestling because some of the mystique is gone.

Agreed. You can't please everyone so you have to go with that which makes you money. Plus some people in the IWC just hate everything. They live to hate. It's not just the IWC but the whole internet. If they had nothing to hate you wouldn't hear from them.

 

[Kenny Powers]

You can't please all the people all of the time and you can't do anything as a promoter about the internet or dirt sheets. Promoters hated the dirt sheets back in the 80's and 90's but couldn't do anything about it. I feel that Vince even Jim Ross don't feel the IWC is a threat or a force. JR believes that the IWC maybe makes up 10 % of the wrestling community but I disagree. Everyone is on the internet not just teenage smarks and young adults. I'm sure quite a few 10 years old's get online to see what is new in the wrestling world. I feel that WWE doesn't take the IWC seriously and I can't blame them cause they are still the number one company out there. They may not make the ratings like they did 10 years ago but they are very well off with or without the IWC.

 

[TLC]

I dunno, it just seems to me that there are a number of members of the IWC that are simply impossible to please. You put on a good match, they complain because it's not an epic for the ages every time around. You give a guy a strap, he's held it too long if he's had it for 3 months. You have a guy lose a match, it's automatically the end of his push. You have a feud that lasts 2 months, it's already becoming stale. These are just some of the more common complaints/themes that I've seen and heard since I started contributing to the forums back in March.

i so agree with you, people like that are fucking dicks who need to make up their mind, not hating on everyone just the ones who seem to hate everything, who cares if they dont please you as long as they are pleasing the rest, its better to give the majority what they want not just you, give them a break,Dicks!.

 

[Sinclair101]

not at all, if vince embraced us the shows would be a total shamble... could you imagine if vince even listened to half the ideas that the IWC comes up with... the show would look like a ******ed circus.

the fact is the IWC makes up no more then 10% of the audience... yes you can say everyone is on the net now days... but not everyone is on the spoiler websites and on occasion the odd 10 - 13 year old will google CM Punk's name and see that he attacked Jeff Hardy on smackdown and click the link and have no idea what is happening because he hasn't seen it on smackdown and will be 100% confused when it actualy happens on smackdown... but thats the end of that.

you all forget that Vince McMahon owns a multi-million dollar company... he's obviously doing something right... and we all hate Cena... but theres fuck all we can do about it because he's money for vince so aslong as he keeps drawing dimes, he's gonna be around in the Main Event.

so my answer in short is NEVER EVER should vince listen to anything ANY member of the IWC says... it just weakens the product.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Last night, I was part of the Live Discussion for Night of Champions. The show was quite well received by the majority of people on this site. Until the end.
90% of the members on the website disliked, even hated, Jeff Hardy going over CM Punk as clean as possible.
Now, I know the IWC is the minority compared to the children and the casual fans. But there's still alot of us out there. And Vince obviously knows we exist or else he wouldn't try to swerve the hell out of us all the time.
With WWE's declining ratings, is it possible that members of the IWC are beginning to stop watching? Jeff Hardy, John Cena and Triple H. The 3 wrestlers most hated by the IWC. Also the 3 wrestlers who are getting the most exposure at the moment.
Also, streaming sites. Tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of people watch WWE shows and PPVs for free online. This is another factor for declining PPV buys. I know there's not much WWE could do about it. But even if they had a free stream on the WWE site that had advertisements during the show as if it was Raw or something. If WWE could persuade their fans to watch the streams on WWE.com instead of other free streaming sites, perhaps WWE wouldn't lose as much money.

I know I'm probably starting to sound crazy right now. But looking at the evidence, does the IWC have a bigger impact on ratings than we're aware of? Is it possible that Vince could ever take the IWC seriously as a group? Should he be taking advantage of the internet rather than seeing it as a threat?
And could there ever be a WWE PPV that pleases both the majority of the casual fans and the majority of the IWC?

I think one could argue that Vince has in many ways, already embraced the Internet, and that this is his problem. He's embraced it too much.

More often than not, the IWC members are the ones who seem to push for WWE to stay the course in the current direction. I see a lot of people nitpick certain things that the company does that happen to be insignificant in the big picture, but the ones I see most thrilled with the PG Era are the Internet posters. This is the crowd that likes elimination of gimmicks, and a heavy concentration on the wrestling action in the ring. That is why you see people on here rant and rave about Smackdown and even ECW.

Also, because of Vince's plans being leaked online to originally plan for Triple H vs Edge and John Cena vs Randy Orton at Mania ... Vince got upset that the Internet found out about it and instead went with two overly stale feuds with Cena vs Edge and Triple H vs Orton.

He changes plans on a whim when the Internet finds out about something.

Even though Vince does his idiotic segments on Raw with Hornswoggle, for the kids, and some asinine humor with Santino Marella ... for the most part across the 4 programs, Vince has given the Internet fans exactly what they wanted. Wrestling, wrestling, wrestling, and even more wrestling.

 

[zags]

WWE is a business and not a fantasy league. Now do I feel some some of the ideas listed on these boards would put on a great show or promote a good feud and could please the majority of sane wrestling fans should Vince listen to them? Yes, but then are the ideas actually possible to pull off? Just because something looks good on paper or sounds good when you say it doesn't mean the end result is good.

 

[jokeboy624]

I think Vince should continue to do whatever it is he's doing because it continues to work. Fans, both on the internet and off, continue to tune in and watch the weekly shows. I haven't done the proper research but maybe the PPV buy rates are dropping, but what the hell does it matter to you or I? Is the WWE in danger of going out of business? The short answer is no, not by a long shot. Could it be possible that in this economy people are making sacrifices and that means no PPVs for a while? I think it's a possibility. Half the ideas I read on the internet are crap and are some fanboy's wet dream that only appeal to him and two other people.

By your logic that the IWC hates Hardy, Cena and HHH and taking the suggestion that Vince should 'embrace" the internet, he would remove his top three faces and the biggest draws in the company from the Main Event and send them packing. This ludicrous idea alone is why Vince needs to stay far away from the internet.

By the way, posters should stop painting every member of the "IWC" with the same brush. I'm sick of hearing the IWC hates Cena or hates Hardy. I'm part of the IWC because I'm clearly posting here and I don't hate either of those wrestlers.

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

The Fact is Vince only caters to an audience of one, that is Vince Mcmahon... yes he listens to creative team membrs and looks at certain storyline aspects and characfters but Vince himself is the only person who will say yay or nay to a certain storyline.

The main fact also is the IWC only makes up a small margin of the WWE's total audience so listening to us would be the WWE's biggest mistake because of the fact that we are probably not the people the WWE wants most, we aren't little kids or parents with children who will mostly go to WWE show's we are only a few and far in between to the WWE's audience which caters to millions upon millions around the world, not a few thousand members in a wrestling forum.

The WWE will push who they feel is best and the audience will always eat it up because thats the way Vince sees it and the way he has remained ontop of the wrestling ladder is because he knows whats best for the industry, and because of his ideas no matter how silly we think they may be he still manages to keep guys like us talking and second guessing ourselves.

 

[BWRBrett]

I dunno, it just seems to me that there are a number of members of the IWC that are simply impossible to please. You put on a good match, they complain because it's not an epic for the ages every time around. You give a guy a strap, he's held it too long if he's had it for 3 months. You have a guy lose a match, it's automatically the end of his push. You have a feud that lasts 2 months, it's already becoming stale. These are just some of the more common complaints/themes that I've seen and heard since I started contributing to the forums back in March.

So many fans today, this does include a sizable portion of the IWC, want instant gratification. Something epic has to happen at each ppv or the entire show was a dud. A lot of fans simply don't have the patience to be a wrestling fan and that really has a lot to do with the interenet. We can find out spoilers for storylines, potential matches, who goes over who, etc. weeks and even sometimes months before they happen. There's no surprise anymore really. Now while I'm not knocking the net, it's changed wrestling because some of the mystique is gone.

To me it's not like that. If the product is entertaining and pretty unpredictable, I can overlook small details like BS finishes and what not. Like TNA for example, I enjoy the product right now, it's unpredictable and basically Crash TV. They put on a crappy PPV a few weeks ago but I'm not going to completely bitch because I enjoy the current product and the PPV was basically a hiccup. With WWE, I just don't find the product entertaining. I look for a combination of good matches and good promos, so I guess I'm a quasi-smark now. I used to be real bad though, total cliche smark. Only liked Benoit and all of the high class "workers" and would bag on guys the rest of the IWC hated.

 

[Tastycles]

Oooh we do thinke we're all Mr. Important don't we? Well we're not. Vince doesn't change his plans significantly based on leaks to the internet, in spite of what everyone thinks, and also, we probably account for 5% of his audience at most. The quality of the NFL game on the other channel proably has three times the impact that we have on the ratings.

Some examples: Earlier this year a script was leaked, where JBL challenged CM Punk to an Intercontinental Match tha had a dq finish. In reality what happened was they had JBL win clean, or relatively clean, and then have the title. A change, sure, but hardly the level of change in direction that was anticipated.

Matt Hardy turning on Jeff is also seen as a story that was thrown together once everyone guessed it was Christian. Well, I'm calling bullshit. Christian left as a midcarder went to TNA and wasn't even on top there when he left and returned to WWE. It was exceptionally unlikely that Christian would have been thrust into a main event feud, and he wasn't. Christian to ECW shocked everyone, and literally nobody saw it coming. Hardy vs Hardy may have been done before, but not when both were relevant, and the reaction this got showed.

If the IWC had any bearing at all on the direction of WWE, Shelton Benjamin would be in the main event and Batista would be in the employment office. Wrestling has a history of pulling suprises, but nowadays everyone is a smart arse and thinks that whatever they predict is what Vince was going to do. These rumour sites are occaisionally right, but they don't have a bearing on Vince's plans. Masters was rumoured to return and did. Sid Vicious was rumoured to return and didn't. Everyone could see Legacy coming for about 6 months. It still happened.

Vince isn't an idiot, and he will have seen Vince Russo lead WCW up the garden path when he started doing storylines based on internet gossip from the back. The proportion of fans who are members of the IWC is insignificant, and this is increased when you think these people are the ones who never turn off. Think of it like this, when Raw is shit, what does the IWC do? Come on here and bitch that MVP is getting buried and that HHH is a twat. What do the other percentage of fans do? Change the channel. Essentially the IWC are a hardcore that will still be there even if the product is shoddy. They would watch WWE if Funaki beat Jillian Hall in the WrestleMania main event. The real peoplethat matter are the transient people with disposabe income, and they are not, by and large, the people who frequent internet wrestling forums.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Oooh we do thinke we're all Mr. Important don't we? Well we're not. Vince doesn't change his plans significantly based on leaks to the internet, in spite of what everyone thinks.

He changed the Wrestlemania Main Events this year based on the leaks, and instead of giving the fans a fresh feud with Triple H vs Edge and a relatively fresh feud with Cena vs Orton, he gave us two overly stale feuds that have been beaten into the ground with Orton vs Triple H and Cena vs Edge.

It amazes me that he would tinker with something like that simply because, Heaven forbid, the Internet found out about his secret plans.

It was also reported that plans were scrapped with Kane carrying his mask to the ring in a bag, once the Internet guessed what was in his bag. Therefore, they changed it to a ridiculous Kane vs Rey Mysterio feud that went absolutely nowhere. Kane could have had new life breathed into his character, but since the Internet found out about it, Vince had to scrap it apparently.

If anything, I agree. He should say "screw the Internet" when it comes to making plans.

and also, we probably account for 5% of his audience at most

.

Probably 10%.

Some examples: Earlier this year a script was leaked, where JBL challenged CM Punk to an Intercontinental Match tha had a dq finish. In reality what happened was they had JBL win clean, or relatively clean, and then have the title. A change, sure, but hardly the level of change in direction that was anticipated.

The part with JBL becoming IC Champ was one of the few examples I saw where Vince actually went ahead with his plans, despite the Internet finding out about them through the script being leaked. However, since JBL was retiring at Mania and Vince probably agreed to give him the IC Title in advance before he left the company, his hands were probably tied.

Matt Hardy turning on Jeff is also seen as a story that was thrown together once everyone guessed it was Christian. Well, I'm calling bullshit. Christian left as a midcarder went to TNA and wasn't even on top there when he left and returned to WWE. It was exceptionally unlikely that Christian would have been thrust into a main event feud, and he wasn't. Christian to ECW shocked everyone, and literally nobody saw it coming. Hardy vs Hardy may have been done before, but not when both were relevant, and the reaction this got showed.

I take Matt Hardy's word that he was the one who was originally scheduled to be the stalker, not Christian.

If the IWC had any bearing at all on the direction of WWE, Shelton Benjamin would be in the main event

I have to cite bullshit on that claim. There may be a few within the IWC that like Shelton, but a clear majority of people think he is as boring as all get out.

and Batista would be in the employment office.

Office politics and networking allowed Batista to become a Main Eventer. And because Batista has shown that he can contribute as a Main Eventer, and sell merchandise, I agree that Vince is going to tell the IWC to "shove it" on what they think of Batista.

 

[Blue Chipper]

The IWC is in the small minority. There's millions and millions of wrestling and WWE fans. Why should Vince lisen to us, when there's more people to squeeze cash out of, and to entertain? Vince always garnered to the majority of fans, and do what they seem to want. At NOC, Jeff won becasue the fans seem to have indicated such. Jeff sales from merch to tickets. WWE will always get the most money they can, and that is to gear their product to them, to entertain them, so they can make most money possible. Simple as that, nothing more or nothing less.

 

[Wrath]

Vince has already done one of his biggest mistakes by listening us.He shouldn't listen us.Majority of the internet is full of people who has no idea about professional wrestling.He just changed the entire booking of WrestleMania because of the internet.The original plan for Christian is to come back at Rumble to screw Hardy but when this leaked in the internet Vince has changed his current idea.I think current plans were Edge vs Triple and Cena vs Orton.Both of the matches were still fresh for us.Edge vs Triple H match was underutilized by booking for a B grade PPV and Orton vs Cena feud couldn't really built up well.So what we got two main event matches that we have seen lots of times and instead of Christian vs Jeff which I think could've been a great feud to put Christian over we've seen a shitty ladder match under the name of extreme rules.See how the PPV was effected.If Undertaker vs Hbk match didn't happen I could easily claim this WM as one of the worst of all time.What WWE got by caring internet.Anything.We're in minority.Think what would be the crowd's reaction if Christian returned back at Rumble.WrestleMania 25 is the biggest proof of how we are in minority.So Vince must do what he does right now.Caring the majority of his fanbase.

 

[Tastycles]

He changed the Wrestlemania Main Events this year based on the leaks, and instead of giving the fans a fresh feud with Triple H vs Edge and a relatively fresh feud with Cena vs Orton, he gave us two overly stale feuds that have been beaten into the ground with Orton vs Triple H and Cena vs Edge.

What's your source for this? They started building Orton vs HHH in December, they started Cena vs Edge later, admittedly, but they wouldn't have continued with ORton vs HHH until July if they didn't have a lot invested in it.

It amazes me that he would tinker with something like that simply because, Heaven forbid, the Internet found out about his secret plans.

But he didn't. The internet has guessed loads of his plans. Everyone could see Orton winning the Royal Rumble, he still won it, didn't he? If Vince did change the plans, and you have literally no proof of that, there are a million reasons he may have done.

It was also reported that plans were scrapped with Kane carrying his mask to the ring in a bag, once the Internet guessed what was in his bag. Therefore, they changed it to a ridiculous Kane vs Rey Mysterio feud that went absolutely nowhere. Kane could have had new life breathed into his character, but since the Internet found out about it, Vince had to scrap it apparently.

I think that went tits up because it never really made any sense. If it was Kane's mask, he'd know if he was alive or dead. The Mysterio feud was shit, but made far worse by John Cena's injury. Without that, it would have at least made a bit of sense. People guessed it was his mask, but the storyline would still have been gripping potentially, I just don't buy it. I think if anything, it was an ill-conceived idea that was aborted when it bordered on the ridiculous.

If anything, I agree. He should say "screw the Internet" when it comes to making plans.

And he does.

Probably 10%.

I doubt that. About 4 million people watch raw, do you think that there 400,000 active posters on wrestling forums? If anything 5% is a gross overestimate.

The part with JBL becoming IC Champ was one of the few examples I saw where Vince actually went ahead with his plans, despite the Internet finding out about them through the script being leaked. However, since JBL was retiring at Mania and Vince probably agreed to give him the IC Title in advance before he left the company, his hands were probably tied.

Yeah, because Vince always honours his word to the wrestlers doesn't he? Vince didn't do anything, because it didn't matter. This is the only time we can be sure of a definite leak to the IWC, and he changed nothing whatsoever about it.

I take Matt Hardy's word that he was the one who was originally scheduled to be the stalker, not Christian.

Yeah, well a lot of people take the word of HARDYHBKORTON74744 who reckons that they changed it. Matt Hardy doesn't know anything, after all.

I have to cite bullshit on that claim. There may be a few within the IWC that like Shelton, but a clear majority of people think he is as boring as all get out.

Fine, but they were sucking his dick a year ago. It happens all the time, the darling is probably Kofi or Dolph Ziggler this week, but opinions soon change once someone points out what is what.

Office politics and networking allowed Batista to become a Main Eventer. And because Batista has shown that he can contribute as a Main Eventer, and sell merchandise, I agree that Vince is going to tell the IWC to "shove it" on what they think of Batista.

No, the fact that Batista has main event wrestler written all over him is why he got put in the main event. Even when he was with D'Von he had a certain sparkle. You can't tell me you looked at Batsta and saw another Bam Neely, can you? He had the "it" factor, and it has proved with him probably being 3rd or 4th most marketable in the company.

The IWC knows fuck all, and it's opinon is one below worthless. If Vince was to embrace the opinion of the IWC, it would be meaningless. The IWC ranges from people irate that Brian Kendrick wasn't given a WWE title run to people like Slyfox who understand the business. I'd love it if WWE was catered for me personally, but it shouldn't be, it should be catered for the biggest market which isn't, nor will it ever be, the IWC.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

What's your source for this? They started building Orton vs HHH in December, they started Cena vs Edge later, admittedly, but they wouldn't have continued with ORton vs HHH until July if they didn't have a lot invested in it.

Well, this was reported across the newsboards before the Randy Orton punting Vince McMahon incident. BTW, I know you stated that they started building Orton vs Triple H in December, but I don't agree with that at all, and I would love to see any evidence you have of that, as well.

Randy Orton was on Raw and Triple H was on Smackdown in December of 2008. So I don't know how your claim could even be possible.

Randy Orton punted Vince McMahon on January 19, 2009 and as far as I remember, that it was kicked the program off between those two.

Common sense would dictate that since John Cena was on Raw and Randy Orton was on Raw, that Orton was lined up to challenge Cena for the title, since they were on the same brands. Then, McMahon made the ol' switcheroo.

Here was a piece that was credited to Dave Meltzer.

According to sources, WWE has already started the creative process of the return of Christian. Edge will cost Jeff Hardy the title, and reveal Christian as the "mystery person" who attacked Jeff the morning of Survivor Series. Triple H vs. Edge and Jeff Hardy vs. Christian is the current plan for WrestleMania 25. Jeff will get a chance to win back his title at WrestleMania by winning the Royal Rumble or in an Elimination Chamber at No Way Out against Edge, but will pass on the title shot for a grudge match against Christian.

There has been no confirmation of Christian signing with WWE, but the belief from people within TNA and WWE is that he will return to the company.

Credit: Wrestling Observer Newsletter

http://www.pwmania.com/newsarticle.php?page=232923277

But he didn't. The internet has guessed loads of his plans. Everyone could see Orton winning the Royal Rumble, he still won it, didn't he? If Vince did change the plans, and you have literally no proof of that, there are a million reasons he may have done.

Well, like any other Internet poster, I can only go by the newsboards ... which is what all of us do. And Meltzer is generally accepted as the most respectable wrestling journalist in the business.

I think that went tits up because it never really made any sense. If it was Kane's mask, he'd know if he was alive or dead. The Mysterio feud was shit, but made far worse by John Cena's injury. Without that, it would have at least made a bit of sense. People guessed it was his mask, but the storyline would still have been gripping potentially, I just don't buy it. I think if anything, it was an ill-conceived idea that was aborted when it bordered on the ridiculous.

Why would Kane having a split personality between his old self and his new self be ridiculous? That intrigues me more than anything, and makes me want to watch what is going to happen each week with the storyline ... as opposed to some made-up at the last second storyline between Rey Mysterio and Kane. Kane supposedly kidnapped Mysterio and took his mask ... then all of a sudden, they have several matches on TV, and that was the end of it. It wasn't even a very intense feud, at all, given that Kane supposedly kidnapped Rey.

One thing was for certain, WWE didn't want the public to even think that Kane's mask was a possibility for being in the bag, according to a poll they did ... asking people what could be in the bag.

And he does.

Ehhh, not sure about that. You and I are at least in agreement that he shouldn't necessarily pay attention to the IWC, but that depends on whether these situations are true and that he did abort some of those plans because they were made public, or not.

Regardless, he is sure interested in where his leaks are coming from to go to the point of trying to set up people with false information to catch the leaks. If he wasn't paranoid about the leaks and information getting to the Internet, I doubt he would go to those lengths.

I doubt that. About 4 million people watch raw, do you think that there 400,000 active posters on wrestling forums? If anything 5% is a gross overestimate.

Well that depends on how we define "IWC". Do we define IWC as simply people who post on wrestling forums? Or do we define IWC as the people who in the very least, read wrestling-related news off the newsboards?

If it is the later, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it were 10% at all, but ultimately that depends on how "IWC" is defined.

Yeah, because Vince always honours his word to the wrestlers doesn't he? Vince didn't do anything, because it didn't matter. This is the only time we can be sure of a definite leak to the IWC, and he changed nothing whatsoever about it.

Not all wrestlers, but are you actually saying with a straight face that you think EVERY wrestler has the SAME standing in the company in Vince's eyes?

As part of JBL's deal as a commentator, he actually had access to the Private Jet to fly him back home, as part of his deal. You have to be pretty high up there in Vince's eyes to get a deal-sweetener like that, as he isn't going to let anyone have access to the jet.

To those in Vince's top brass and inner circle, I do think he keeps his commitments to. But ultimately, that is up to him. It was reported that Vince had a fondness for JBL, as far as JBL making his fortune off investing, which Vince respected. That certainly explains why JBL got away with half the shit behind the scenes that he did.

Yeah, well a lot of people take the word of HARDYHBKORTON74744 who reckons that they changed it. Matt Hardy doesn't know anything, after all.

Didn't you just say that you "didn't buy that Christian was the perpetrator and that it was Matt Hardy all along"? Here, I take your side and agree with you, yet you take the opposite side now, just to argue? Interesting.

Fine, but they were sucking his dick a year ago. It happens all the time, the darling is probably Kofi or Dolph Ziggler this week, but opinions soon change once someone points out what is what.

I don't even sense that the IWC is solidly behind Kofi, either to be frank. But they definitely aren't solidly behind Shelton Benjamin, that's for sure. And I think it is really debatable whether they ever were in full support of him or not. Like I said, sure you see a couple people here and there take up for Shelton, but I don't see anywhere near a majority of posters doing so, and nor did I ever see a majority of posters do so in years past.

No, the fact that Batista has main event wrestler written all over him is why he got put in the main event. Even when he was with D'Von he had a certain sparkle. You can't tell me you looked at Batsta and saw another Bam Neely, can you? He had the "it" factor, and it has proved with him probably being 3rd or 4th most marketable in the company.

Batista has a certain look to him, but so do a lot of guys. He was brought in, in a bodyguard-type role for D-Von as his "Deacon", and then eventually given some matches. That is no different than a Tyson Tomko, who was also huge.

Batista is absolute shit on the mic, isn't a great worker, and is highly over-rated ... and the IWC knows it. Which is why you see so much negativity towards the guy on Internet forums. Again, not that Vince should take IWC opinion to the bank, but that doesn't mean that the criticisms of him are any less true.

He was reported to have a pretty bad attitude backstage at one point, which Vince obviously tolerated because of where he was on the roster, and who he was friends with (Triple H and Ric Flair).

Like Triple H, who didn't necessarily look like a Main Eventer back in the day as Hunter Hearst Helmsley when he first debuted, Batista did a great job politicking his way up the pecking order and making friends with the right people.

The IWC knows fuck all, and it's opinon is one below worthless. If Vince was to embrace the opinion of the IWC, it would be meaningless. The IWC ranges from people irate that Brian Kendrick wasn't given a WWE title run to people like Slyfox who understand the business. I'd love it if WWE was catered for me personally, but it shouldn't be, it should be catered for the biggest market which isn't, nor will it ever be, the IWC.

Sometimes their opinions are worthless and absolute garbage, and yet other times I've seen people hit the nail right on the head about a variety of topics that WWE needs improve upon. In addition, I've seen some fantastic storyline suggestions from people online. So it really depends on who you listen to. I really think there is a tendency to group all the IWC into the same category, when it is gradually becoming much more diverse as the years go by.

Most of the IWC I have seen today are actually not surprised that Kendrick was let go, and nor seem to be all that outraged. A few people, but not many from what I've seen.

As far as WWE catering to the biggest market possible ... I couldn't agree more. However, as I've stated countless times, I think there are better ways than others on how to accomplish that goal. But I'm not getting into it again at this time. I've spoken my thoughts at length enough on that topic.

 

[Sasori]

Well I agree, Vince should really listen to the more experienced fans over the internet rather than a bunch of kids who only watch wrestling because there friends do or want to be cool or what ever. But Vince is a buisness man, and he knows theres more casual newbie and kiddie fans who cheer only faces, than us. So I'll give it to Vince he's smart for that. But every now and than Vince will do something to satisfy us. But he eventually screws it up for example: WM 25 IMO the show was o.k and than Undertaker vs. Shawn came up, amazing match! Vince really gave EVERY ONE a treat, but than... The uber faces Cena and HHH walked out with the titles both with super man finishes especially Cena, tsch as if he could actually lift 800 pounds... So Vince isn't really doing a bad job, a school grade would be like a C- or a B- at best, to keep all fans satisfied. Although he seems to satisfy the newbies in wrestling more, I mean were the ones who have been fucking loyal to you for years, some of us including me have watched for over and almost over 2 decades!

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

So Vince isn't really doing a bad job, a school grade would be like a C- or a B- at best, to keep all fans satisfied. Although he seems to satisfy the newbies in wrestling more, I mean were the ones who have been fucking loyal to you for years, some of us including me have watched for over and almost over 2 decades!

If I had to assign a letter grade for the current product, it would be a D+. The absolute only reason why it wouldn't get an E is because of the quality of the actual wrestling. I would actually give the quality of the in-ring wrestling an overall grade of "A". That's about the only thing Vince has done right these past few years ... so I at least give him credit for that much.

Unfortunately, the quality of the actual wrestling isn't what I solely base my grading criteria on. There are so many more Creative elements that go into formulating my opinion on the overall product than just that. For me as a fan growing up, it NEVER was ONLY about the actual in-ring wrestling.

 

[Nev]

I am going to have to agree with what Jack-Hammer stated.

It's a hell of a lot harder to please most of the IWC, than say to a couple of smarks. The average IWC fan looks for a show to be near perfect. Obviously it isn't, but in the process, there is always going to be constant complaining. It's pretty normal and a wrestling fan should be pleased, but it's not really something Vince should consider 'embracing'. The concept seems almost ridiculous. Vince? LOL

Some fans set their standards too high sometimes. Whereas a casual fan, that doesn't browse wrestling insider sites at all, are usually the ones that keep the optimism going. Either way, both freaking sides are loyal to the company.

Going with numbers here: The IWC doesn't win. It's about 10-20% of the millions of viewers that tune into RAW, anyway. I don't see the number growing if the WWE were to appeal to fans that desire stellar programs every week for a seemingly very high standard.

 

[Tastycles]

Well, this was reported across the newsboards before the Randy Orton punting Vince McMahon incident. BTW, I know you stated that they started building Orton vs Triple H in December, but I don't agree with that at all, and I would love to see any evidence you have of that, as well.

Stephanie McMahon took over Raw in November, Orton started giving her shit in December, after his feud with Batista ended at Armageddon. Vince showed up to have a go at Orton for being horrid to Stephanie.

Randy Orton was on Raw and Triple H was on Smackdown in December of 2008. So I don't know how your claim could even be possible.

Well, HHH's wife, who the whole feud was over was on Raw, funnily enough. Around this time HHH was appearing on Raw weekly.

Randy Orton punted Vince McMahon on January 19, 2009 and as far as I remember, that it was kicked the program off between those two.

You remmeber wrong.

Common sense would dictate that since John Cena was on Raw and Randy Orton was on Raw, that Orton was lined up to challenge Cena for the title, since they were on the same brands. Then, McMahon made the ol' switcheroo.

Yup, because WrestleMania had no other cross brand feuds... Jeff vs Matt, (I know Matt moved, but only due to the feud), HBK vs Undertaker, tag titles. In fact, only one match on the card involved wrestlers all from one brand. So not that logical.

Here was a piece that was credited to Dave Meltzer.







Well, like any other Internet poster, I can only go by the newsboards ... which is what all of us do. And Meltzer is generally accepted as the most respectable wrestling journalist in the business.

But he's still regarded to be right only about half of the time. He also says that it was going to be Christian, in spite of the fact that you yourself said Matt Hardy said it was always going to be him. Remember, Edge vs HHH had already been done that year, why on earth wouldn't they have saved it for WrestleMania if that was going to be the case.

Why would Kane having a split personality between his old self and his new self be ridiculous? That intrigues me more than anything, and makes me want to watch what is going to happen each week with the storyline ... as opposed to some made-up at the last second storyline between Rey Mysterio and Kane. Kane supposedly kidnapped Mysterio and took his mask ... then all of a sudden, they have several matches on TV, and that was the end of it. It wasn't even a very intense feud, at all, given that Kane supposedly kidnapped Rey.

It was a shit feud, don't get me wrong, and it would have made more compelling television if Kane had his own mask, but Wrestling tv is a means to an end, and where is the payoff if Kane goes mental? Who's he going to fight? Himself? Undertaker again? Yawn.

One thing was for certain, WWE didn't want the public to even think that Kane's mask was a possibility for being in the bag, according to a poll they did ... asking people what could be in the bag.

Ehhh, not sure about that. You and I are at least in agreement that he shouldn't necessarily pay attention to the IWC, but that depends on whether these situations are true and that he did abort some of those plans because they were made public, or not.

Regardless, he is sure interested in where his leaks are coming from to go to the point of trying to set up people with false information to catch the leaks. If he wasn't paranoid about the leaks and information getting to the Internet, I doubt he would go to those lengths.

Well he's within his rights to know who can be trusted. There are countless reasons for wanting to do this outside of the IWC. For example, if he wants to enter contract negotiations with a rival brand's wrestler without them knowing, then he can. Wen Vince wants to keep something a close knit secret, it happens. Nobody knew that Bischoff was going to be on Raw, nobody knew that the screwjob would happen, nobody knew that MITB cash ins would happen when they did.

Well that depends on how we define "IWC". Do we define IWC as simply people who post on wrestling forums? Or do we define IWC as the people who in the very least, read wrestling-related news off the newsboards?

If it is the later, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it were 10% at all, but ultimately that depends on how "IWC" is defined.

I meant the former, but could easily have meant the latter, not including WWE.com. It's still not going to be anything approaching 400,000 unique people every week.

Not all wrestlers, but are you actually saying with a straight face that you think EVERY wrestler has the SAME standing in the company in Vince's eyes?

Of course not, but even people in good standing have been put out to pasture without dignity. Hogan, Hart, Savage etc. these were his champions and when they were leaving him, he made them look silly. JBL had nothing left to offer him, why wouldn't he have changed his mind.

As part of JBL's deal as a commentator, he actually had access to the Private Jet to fly him back home, as part of his deal. You have to be pretty high up there in Vince's eyes to get a deal-sweetener like that, as he isn't going to let anyone have access to the jet.

To those in Vince's top brass and inner circle, I do think he keeps his commitments to. But ultimately, that is up to him. It was reported that Vince had a fondness for JBL, as far as JBL making his fortune off investing, which Vince respected. That certainly explains why JBL got away with half the shit behind the scenes that he did.

It probably does, but it wouldn't be the first time. Vince could quite easily have changed the plans, had someone else win the title, and subsequently drop it to JBL, had JBL "buy" a US title shot, which would have had exactly the same outcome, with Punk losing his title to someone Raw bound in the draft. Changes that didn't infringe on JBL's exit nor the overall WrestleMania productcould have been made, but weren't, because it didn't matter.

Didn't you just say that you "didn't buy that Christian was the perpetrator and that it was Matt Hardy all along"? Here, I take your side and agree with you, yet you take the opposite side now, just to argue? Interesting.

Sarcasm. It was Matt all along, never Christian. That is what I mean, and what I said.

I don't even sense that the IWC is solidly behind Kofi, either to be frank. But they definitely aren't solidly behind Shelton Benjamin, that's for sure. And I think it is really debatable whether they ever were in full support of him or not. Like I said, sure you see a couple people here and there take up for Shelton, but I don't see anywhere near a majority of posters doing so, and nor did I ever see a majority of posters do so in years past.

Whatever, my point is is that the IWC tends to follow certain people. Jericho is held in higher esteem than Batista, but I know which one would make me more money. People in the IWC tend to be unable to differentiate between who they like and who is actually good at their job. I find Batista dull, and I enjoy watching Tyson Kidd, but I know which one is better at making money.

Batista has a certain look to him, but so do a lot of guys. He was brought in, in a bodyguard-type role for D-Von as his "Deacon", and then eventually given some matches. That is no different than a Tyson Tomko, who was also huge.

Except Tomko lacks charisma.

Batista is absolute shit on the mic, isn't a great worker, and is highly over-rated ... and the IWC knows it. Which is why you see so much negativity towards the guy on Internet forums. Again, not that Vince should take IWC opinion to the bank, but that doesn't mean that the criticisms of him are any less true.

Perhaps he does deserve criticism, but his charisma more than makes up for it. That is something the IWC as a whole tends to miss. The hate John Cena gets is nothing short of ridiculous, and as for Hogan? He was crap, only hulked up and did one move innit? That was sarcasm, by the way. Moronic points of view like that and people failing to see the bigger picture are precisely why the IWC should be ignored. The members of this forum thought that Benoit would beat Hogan in a cage match. That sentence completely shows why the IWC don't have a fucking clue what they are talking about, as a whole.

He was reported to have a pretty bad attitude backstage at one point, which Vince obviously tolerated because of where he was on the roster, and who he was friends with (Triple H and Ric Flair).

But Vince has tolerated the vices of his big stars in the making since he started. Do you really think a guy like Al Snow would have gotten away with the shit Shawn Michaels did? No. It has nothing to do with politics, maybe a little, but not that much. It has to do with keeping talented stars away from the opposition. Classic example, Sean Waltham. Friends with guysin Vince's inner circle, but a knobend. He was released because he had nothing to offer another company. Jeff Hardy, also an ********, no politics really, but clearly destined for big things, allowed to stay.

Like Triple H, who didn't necessarily look like a Main Eventer back in the day as Hunter Hearst Helmsley when he first debuted, Batista did a great job politicking his way up the pecking order and making friends with the right people.

Yup, his charisma had nothing to do with it. Friends are all you need. And your new worrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrld champion X-Paaaaaaaaaaaaaac. Oh wait.

Sometimes their opinions are worthless and absolute garbage, and yet other times I've seen people hit the nail right on the head about a variety of topics that WWE needs improve upon. In addition, I've seen some fantastic storyline suggestions from people online. So it really depends on who you listen to. I really think there is a tendency to group all the IWC into the same category, when it is gradually becoming much more diverse as the years go by.

I agree. But for every Slyfox who understands wrestling there are 50 people who don't. I disagree with your ideas for improving the product, but I do think you have a grasp and understanding of wrestling. The people who think Kendrick should be main eventing against Evan Bourne, less so.

Most of the IWC I have seen today are actually not surprised that Kendrick was let go, and nor seem to be all that outraged. A few people, but not many from what I've seen.

Go in the thread, it is 50-50 between "not suprised" and "HE NEVA GOT NO CHANS NEVA!!!!"

As far as WWE catering to the biggest market possible ... I couldn't agree more. However, as I've stated countless times, I think there are better ways than others on how to accomplish that goal. But I'm not getting into it again at this time. I've spoken my thoughts at length enough on that topic.

Yes you have, and I disagree, but I think we can both agree that taking into account the views of the IWC isn't high on the list.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Stephanie McMahon took over Raw in November, Orton started giving her shit in December, after his feud with Batista ended at Armageddon. Vince showed up to have a go at Orton for being horrid to Stephanie.

Before I continue on and address this entire post I would like for you to answer me something.

What took place during this interaction with Vince and Orton that you are referencing?