Should They Stay or Should They Go

[Davi323]

Like I said...PROVE that this is a much better team with Schwartz as the coach. Rod Marinelli can do 2-7. Marty Mornhinweg can do 2-7 after 9 games. What exactly has Jim Schwartz DONE? I know what Martin Mayhew has done...But what has Schwartz done to account for this magical season? What genius coaching has he demonstrated? The fact is, he has done absolutely nothing that other terrible Lions coaches haven't done before him. Stop talking about the improvement. SHOW the improvement. Losing to the fucking Buffalo Bills is improvement? If that is your definition of getting better, find a new dealer, because the drugs you are taking are really fucking up your judgement. What have they done to prove they are better? Nothing. Just a lot of talk. When they can back it up with deeds, fine. But until then, no Lions coach has earned a free pass. Even Wayne Fontes managed to get them to the NFC Championship game...

I get that you want to hope for the best...Lions fans are damn good at the "we'll get ya next year" mentality. But is time to put away the homer glasses, and recognize the team for what it is, and what it isn't. And what it isn't, is well prepared to play against winless teams. If the Lions really were different from years past, they wouldn't have played an absolutely piece of shit game today. The Bills gave them every opportunity to prove the Lions were the better team, and they couldn't do it. Stop whining about Shaun Hill not being Matt Stafford...Neither play defense, neither would have been responsible for Lee Evan's catches, neither would have been responsible for letting Fred Jackson gash them for 1st down after 1st down. You play with the players you have, and Shaun Hill had all week to prepare, and he started games for Detroit already. In fact, Hill actually didn't look too bad. Certainly played better than Stanton would have. You can't claim it was Hill's fault they lost, it never should have gone down to a 2 point conversion. The entire team played lethargically. That lack of being ready to play falls on the coaches. Or do you want to say that game planning isn't a coaching responsibility? This team was flat out not ready to play. But thats all the players fault, isn't it? Because Jim Schwartz doesn"t have any affect on the outcomes of games, he can do no wrong.

Convince me they are better. Don't just say it, show it.

 

[Big Sexy]

Convince me they are better. Don't just say it, show it.

1. Stop putting words in my mouth. Not once have I said Jim Schwartz is an amazing coach who should praised from the rooftops. I said he has improved the team and made them competitive.

2. Are you actually watching the games. Winning is the most important thing but this team, unlike previous years, is competitive on a weekly basis and once again they are not at 100%. This is a team being led by a back up qb and it isn't fair to judge the team's success the same way you would with a starter. Shaun Hill hasn't been playing bad but he is a game manager type of qb. Stafford is a potential franchise qb who can win games, not just manage them and keep the team in it. There is a huge difference in that regard between the two quarterbacks.

In 2008 and 2009 the Lions were 32nd in total defense in the NFL. They are currently 23rd. That obviously shows improvement. When it comes to points per game offensively the Lions were 27th in 2008, 27th in 2009, and now they are 7th here in 2010. Now I ask you, how is that NOT showing improvement?

 

[Davi323]

2 and 7...losing to the Bills. The BILLS. Blowing double digit leads in the 4th quarter, committing double digit penalties per game. Where is the improvement? Where is their next win on the schedule? I judge improvement by wins. Stats mean utter shit. The Patriots are in the bottom third both offensively and defensively, but are 6-2, and will possibly be 7-2, depending on the game tonight. Saying the Lions are improved because they are 23rd in defense doesn't mean a damn thing. The NFL playoffs are played by the teams with the wins, not the teams with the best stats. Division winners are decided by wins and losses, not yards given up per game. Stats are great for fantasy football, but in real football, the only thing that matters, the only thing that has ever mattered is winning. Results are what matter. The Lions haven't produced them, plain and simple. Where will your stats be when the Lions have another top five draft pick, because they end up with a terrible record, AGAIN?

 

[Big Sexy]

2 and 7...losing to the Bills. The BILLS. Blowing double digit leads in the 4th quarter, committing double digit penalties per game. Where is the improvement? Where is their next win on the schedule? I judge improvement by wins. Stats mean utter shit. The Patriots are in the bottom third both offensively and defensively, but are 6-2, and will possibly be 7-2, depending on the game tonight. Saying the Lions are improved because they are 23rd in defense doesn't mean a damn thing. The NFL playoffs are played by the teams with the wins, not the teams with the best stats. Division winners are decided by wins and losses, not yards given up per game. Stats are great for fantasy football, but in real football, the only thing that matters, the only thing that has ever mattered is winning. Results are what matter. The Lions haven't produced them, plain and simple. Where will your stats be when the Lions have another top five draft pick, because they end up with a terrible record, AGAIN?

1. The Lions have equaled their win total from the last two years in the first 9 games of the season. Is that not improvement? Or does every number I bring up showing that they've improved mean nothing because they aren't suddenly a .500 team. How many wins did you want this year for you to be satisfied?

2. You also keep dismissing the MAJOR injury that the Lions have had. Matt Stafford is their franchise quarterback and the play of the team with him in the lineup has been much better then with Hill in the lineup. I like Hill and think he's a great back up but he isn't Matt Stafford. With Stafford the Lions beat the Redskins and would have beaten the Jets had he not gotten hurt. It could also be argued that they would have beaten the Bears as well without the injury to Stafford. The Lions are potentially 3-0 with Stafford as the starter. You are cutting Schwartz absolutely no slack even though this is just his second year with the team and they have improved everywhere from wins, to total offense, total defense, and competitiveness.

And if stats mean "shit" then why do you keep bringing up the penalty STAT. I guess stats only mean something when you think they are helping you in a debate.

 

[Davi323]

The Lions had both wins by Week 10 last year. If they lose to Dallas next week, they will be in exactly the same place they were last year after 10 games. That would kind of kill your whole "they have already matched last year's wins" argument, wouldn't it? You know why Schwartz doesn't get any slack? Because other inexperienced head coaches who took over really bad teams and have arguably less talented rosters overall are winning more games. Tom Cable has a better record, Haley in Kansas City has a better record, can you honestly claim that either the Raiders or Chiefs are fundamentally better than Detroit? They have better records though. So do the Rams, the team that drafted ahead of the Lions. The Lions destroyed them, even with Bradford as the QB...but then they showed they can still win games. I am not going to play the woulda coulda shoulda game with the Lions anymore.

I have been watching this team for over 20 years, and I have watched them go from sometimes playoff team to perennial laughing stock. My tolerance with losing is thin, and I will make absolutely no apologies for holding this team to the same standards other teams have. I used to be like you, I used to be the guy who constantly made excuses for why the Lions lost, I was the guy who brought up the "well, if this had gone differently, we would have won" week after week. After doing that for a decade or two, you get tired if it. All the Lions have to do to prove they are better is win. That's it. No more excuses for losing.

When they give me something to get excited about, I will get excited, but I have seen too many head coaches claim that this team has improved by leaps and bounds, only to see those claims prove false, as the Lions continuously lose. Every year, homer newspapers writers recycle the same old stories, changing only the names and dates. The Lions are improved, they will finish with a ridiculous amount of wins, look for this team to be a playoff contender, blah blah fucking blah. Every year its the same bullshit. Don't tell me you are better, show me you are better. If the Lions turn around this season and can somehow scrape together a 6-10 season or something, something that would only require them finishing 4-3, I will be more than happy to go right here, and publicly admit how wrong I was. I want the team to prove me wrong. I want them to win, so that they can shut me up with their actions, not with mere unsubstantiated words. The time for talking ended after training camp. Now is the time for doing. And they aren't doing.

Maybe part of the disconnect we are having is because I am 35, you are 21. When did you really start to watch football? I am willing to bet that I have seen the Lions lose more games than you have actually seen them play total. You haven't been worn down by a few decades of shattered hopes and dreams, you haven't had the same amount of time to realize that while the Red Wings are perhaps the best run franchise in all of sports, the Lions are possibly the worst run.

 

[Big Sexy]

The Lions had both wins by Week 10 last year. If they lose to Dallas next week, they will be in exactly the same place they were last year after 10 games. That would kind of kill your whole "they have already matched last year's wins" argument, wouldn't it? You know why Schwartz doesn't get any slack? Because other inexperienced head coaches who took over really bad teams and have arguably less talented rosters overall are winning more games. Tom Cable has a better record, Haley in Kansas City has a better record, can you honestly claim that either the Raiders or Chiefs are fundamentally better than Detroit? They have better records though. So do the Rams, the team that drafted ahead of the Lions. The Lions destroyed them, even with Bradford as the QB...but then they showed they can still win games. I am not going to play the woulda coulda shoulda game with the Lions anymore.

All of those teams that you are mentioning have one of two things. They either have their franchise qb like the Rams with Sam Bradford or at least their starter like the Chiefs with Matt Cassell. Or when it comes to the Chiefs and Raiders they have elite running backs. Jhavid Best has potential but he is just a rookie. He actually reminds me a lot of Darren McFadden who is just now starting to live up to his superstar potential in his third year. The Lions are a pass first offense except because of injuries they have a game manager at qb. Those two things just don't work well together. I still have yet to see you make a legitimate rebuttal to my point that losing Stafford is the biggest reason for the Lions 2-7 record right now.

As far as how long I've been watching the Lions, I've been watching ever since I can remember but for obvious reasons didn't really start making an emotional investment in the team until about 7 or 8 years old. You may have gotten to see the Lions lose more but you've also gotten to see and remember them winning more. I was alive for winning seasons in 91, 93, 94, and 95 but my memories of those years are not very vivid because of my young age and I'm sure those years you remember very fondly. The only winning seasons I actually have good memories of and remember watching from start to finish are 1997 and 2000. Both seasons they finished 9-7 and only one of those years did they make the playoffs. They also finished 8-8 in 99 and were knocked out in the first round of the playoffs. From age 12-21 I've watched the Lions win a total of 35 games in 9 1/2 seasons. The prime of my football watching life I've seen nothing but complete shit from this team.

 

[Davi323]

Shaun Hill has a better QB rating, more yards per attempt and more yards per game than Bradford. The only real difference between them is Bradford has two more TDs. Your claim that the Rams are different because of Bradford is weak, when you actually compare his stats to Shaun Hill's. If Bradford is the difference maker in St. Louis, than Hill is a difference maker in Detroit. He has to be, based on stats, which you love to use...But in the real world, we both know stats are meaningless, and Bradford is better...but based on your comments about the offensive/defensive rankings, you can't say stats are as meaningless as I can, because it would mean you got caught in a double standard. If stats matter regarding improved defensive rankings, like you want to claim as a sign the team is improving under Schwartz, then you have to acknowledge than if Bradford is a difference maker, so is Hill, based on that same devotion to the stats. Or are you willing to concede that stats don't mean shit without a win? Patriots are still lousy statistically, yet are 7-2. Like I said before...wins are the only thing that really matter, and Schwartz hasn't won.

 

[Big Sexy]

Shaun Hill has a better QB rating, more yards per attempt and more yards per game than Bradford. The only real difference between them is Bradford has two more TDs. Your claim that the Rams are different because of Bradford is weak, when you actually compare his stats to Shaun Hill's. If Bradford is the difference maker in St. Louis, than Hill is a difference maker in Detroit. He has to be, based on stats, which you love to use...But in the real world, we both know stats are meaningless, and Bradford is better...but based on your comments about the offensive/defensive rankings, you can't say stats are as meaningless as I can, because it would mean you got caught in a double standard. If stats matter regarding improved defensive rankings, like you want to claim as a sign the team is improving under Schwartz, then you have to acknowledge than if Bradford is a difference maker, so is Hill, based on that same devotion to the stats. Or are you willing to concede that stats don't mean shit without a win? Patriots are still lousy statistically, yet are 7-2. Like I said before...wins are the only thing that really matter, and Schwartz hasn't won.

You can't just take stats alone and come to conclusions about things but you also can't say that stats are shit. Bradford and Hill are in two different situations. A lot of Hill's stats are coming late in games with the Lions throwing the ball every down and are ballooned because of that. You also have to take into account that the Rams, unlike the Lions, have had consistency at the position which is very important. Let's also not forget St Louis is still more of a running team as they have a top 10, possibly top 5running back in Steven Jackson. You need to look at the big picture not just specific details.

 

[Davi323]

You can't just take stats alone and come to conclusions about things but you also can't say that stats are shit. Bradford and Hill are in two different situations. A lot of Hill's stats are coming late in games with the Lions throwing the ball every down and are ballooned because of that. You also have to take into account that the Rams, unlike the Lions, have had consistency at the position which is very important. Let's also not forget St Louis is still more of a running team as they have a top 10, possibly top 5running back in Steven Jackson. You need to look at the big picture not just specific details.

FINALLY you get it! You took the Lions defensive ranking alone, and tried to use that as proof of their improvement, and now you fell hook line and sinker. I tried to tell you that using stats like that was bullshit, but you wouldn't have any of it...so I turned it around on you, because I knew damn well what your response would be. And you proved my instincts right. I suggest you take your own advice...look at the big picture. The big picture says the Lions are 2-7. The big picture says they have lost 25 consecutive road games. The big picture says at this point in the season, they are exactly what they were last year. They significantly improved the roster, thanks to Martin Mayhew, not Jim Schwartz. Yet, despite improving the roster all over the board, they haven't accounted for any additional wins. You would think that a team with as improved roster as the Lions supposedly have, they would have more to show for it. In fact, if the roster is so much better at more than just the QB position from last year, if last year's absolutely abyssmal roster could manage 2 wins by week 10, then this year's team should have more...yet they don't. If you significantly improve your roster, which I think they probably have overall, but don't have any more wins, how is that NOT the coaches fault? With the improved roster, Schwartz should have 3 or 4 wins even as an average coach. The only way you don't improve your record while improving the roster drastically is if they are poorly coached. Between the horrible game planning, the playcalls that make you scratch your head, the complete lack of discipline, Jim Schwartz hasn't done anything at all. Martin Mayhew has, Mayhew is the one that improved the roster, not Schwartz.

Finally, this is going to be my last post on this, we are running around in circles here...When the Lions record shows that they have improved, I will believe it. Been burned too many times before to take the hype at face value any more. You may never believe it, but I don't really want to see yet another coaching change just for the sake of a coaching change, but I want to see the Lions succeed even more. I have not seen anything from Jim Schwartz that make me think he is "the guy". I really do hope that Jim Schwartz can prove me wrong. But continuing to lose is not a good way to do it.

It has been a lively discussion, an entertaining discussion, but, its time to move on.

I am going to leave you with a joke, however...

How are the Detroit Lions and Billy Graham alike?
Both are very good at making an entire stadium full of people stand up and shout "JESUS CHRIST!"

 

[Big Sexy]

Lol you haven't proven shit. I never said it was all about stats and nothing else mattered. I've been looking at the big picture the entire time and that combined with the stats has shown that the Lions are improving. Not only are their stats improving but on the field the defense is making plays. They are forcing turnovers, getting to the quarterback, they've come up with multiple goal line stands, and a lot of this is stuff that doesn't show up in the stat sheets.

Offensively, especially when healthy, they are moving down field, they are an improved red zone team, they are actually coming back in games instead of giving up when they fall behind, again not stuff that always shows up in the stat sheets.

I agree we are going around in circles but don't lie and act like you've proven something when in actuality I have been saying the same things all along.