Shawn Michaels: Beyond His Prime?

[Slyfox696]

Wasn't it Bret Hart who had to be 'screwed' out of the championship because he refused to drop it to Shawn? Hmm thought so.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Not to mention one of the biggest reasons Hart gives for not wanting to drop to HBK was because HBK said he was unwilling to lose to Hart.

People don't just pay for him though. Everyone on this board seems to think the only reason people watch wrestling is because of Cena.
NOT TRUE. There is a lot more talent and reasons people watch it.

Of course there is. But, like I said more, there's a reason why more fans show up when Cena is on the card than when he's not.

I may only be in the minority of non-Cena fans, but that doesn't mean my opinion is anything less than yours or anyone elses for that matter. We all watch the same show, but think differently about what makes a good wrestler.

The silly part of this is how people actually believe that one person's opinion is as valid as anothers.

And where is Hogan now? When was the last time we heard from him? Is he putting on solid matches every week? He wasn't even doing that before the match with Shawn. It was Hogan's ego that wouldn't allow him to lose, not Shawn's.

You're entirely missing the point. The point is that it didn't matter who won or who lost the Summerslam match, because neither one of them would gain or lose after the match. It was a "Dream Match", and neither man's reputation would be hurt. It just came down to the fact that Vince McMahon liked Hogan winning more than Shawn.

I know it wasn't a coincidence, I've praised Cena for that match, it was the best match Khali has been in, and that was all down to Cena. He did what I thought was impossible.

Also yeah I've watched the Lashley Cena one now, good match I agree. I don't know if I'd have it as a match of the yar contender, but it was really good. I may have missed that match when watching GAB, because I didn't remember what happened. So I apologise for that.

Not a problem. Hopefully after admitting Cena's work with Khali was the best possible job done, and his match with Lashley was a good one, maybe you might change your mind about Cena's ability.

And, when doing so, you'll start to agree that the Raw match had less to do with HBK carrying Cena, but rather both men working very well together to create a great match.

RVD - Probably against Cena
Edge - Had a good match with Kennedy last year regarding Money in the bank. Cena Adge I didn't like that much, but I think that's to do with the tpe of match. TLC works better for the tag teams IMO. I used to love them.
Umaga - With Cena.
HBK - Match with Cena on Raw definately up there. The matches with Kennedy recently have been good. And he and Edge had a good match at Judgement day. Also up until Shawn collapsed, at Judgement Day he and Orton had a good match.
Lashley - Cena is the one that comes to mind, but that might be because I've watche it very recently. It was good though. Hoever he also had some good matches with JBL.
Orton - The match with Shawn at Judgement Day was good until the ending. Cena was also good.

And, that's just about all the major feuds Cena has had over the last couple of years. And, you're agreeing that most of the best matches were with Cena. Surely you cannot believe that is coincidence, or the result of the OTHER guy?

Yeah I replied in your thread. Moves ARE needed though. Without that wrestling turns into nothing more than a soap. It's World Wrestling Entertainment - Therefore we also need the Wrestling aspect. A good match can be put on without them, but a great match mixes the 2.

Well, of course moves are needed, but which moves are totally arbitrary. Actually, that's not even true, as each wrestler should use moves that take advantage of their "strengths" and what fits their gimmick, but classifying a wrestler as good because of the moves he does, and saying another isn't because of a different set of moves is just not right. It makes more sense for a incredibly strong guy like Cena to use power moves, punches, slams, etc. It makes more sense for a guy like HBK to use more high-impact, aerial and some submission moves to beat an opponent. THAT is part of what makes up a wrestlers psychology (only part of it). That's why people criticizing Cena or Hogan, and saying he's not a good wrestler because of the moves he does, or the number of moves he does is dumb.

He was phenomenal at working the crowd yes. He has all those things you just described as what you think makes a great wrestler. He was brilliant at it, and that in itself gives him reason to be champion. But very few wrestlers have the full in-ring ability as someone such as Kurt Angle, who is great.

Working the crowd is quite possibly THE more important aspect of professional wrestling. First of all, maybe you aren't fully understanding of the term "working the crowd". Working the crowd, or workrate for short, is the ability of a wrestler to make a fan believe what he or she is watching is real, and not scripted. There's a difference between working a crowd and playing to a crowd. Playing to a crowd means that you look at them, you make hand motions at them, you yell "Whats Up" so they'll yell back, etc. Working a crowd is making the crowd become emotionally invested in you and your character, through the story you tell in the ring. Sure, playing to the crowd is part of working a crowd, but the actual in-ring action is essential as well. If moves are sloppy, ill-timed or illogical, then the crowd loses interest, and the illusion that the match is real is gone. Hogan was incredibly at working the crowd, making them care. He was great at selling, and used phenomenal ring psychology. That's why he is so great.

When you talk about Angle, you're talking because of the pretty moves he could do, and the athleticism he possessed. Well, that's really a lacking description. There's a reason why Shawn Michaels is a better wrestler than Angle, and that's because HBK is more complete as a wrestler. He's better at working a crowd, better at selling (Angle is terrible at selling), and understands more about wrestling psychology than Angle ever will.

Those same qualities are what makes Savage and Hogan and HBK and Cena all great. That's what makes them great wrestlers.

I did in the middle of this debate actually. And still I see none of the 'overselling' you have described by Shawn.

You mean when Hulk Hogan hits HBK with "the big boot", and HBK goes down, pops up, runs around flailing his arms wildly just to lay down again...you don't consider that atrocious overselling? It was a mockery of the match.

I class this match as one of Hogan's best because of how much effort he put into it. Because pretty much no matter what he did the crowd loved it. They followed every move and were into it.

You just described almost every single one of Hogan's matches...

When I say wrestling meaning in - ring ability, I don't mean unrealistic. I just mean the way they can put everything together. I don't mean like an acrobat flying everywhere, just a simple match is nice. But I agree. That's what matters. And they can both do it.

In-ring ability is entirely predicated upon things like psychology, storytelling, workrate, selling, pacing, making people care about your character, etc...that's what it means to have good in-ring ability. There really is no other way to classify someone as being good in the ring, unless they have those qualities.

The beliefs aren't 'mistaken' any more than yours are. Fans but Cena's merchandise because he was cool. His gimmicwas great, and he was a breath of fresh air. I'll admit I was a Cena fan in his earlier days with the rapping. He reminded me of Chris Jericho who I like. However I think he lost of a lot originality when he became champion. I'd have probably still been a fan if he'd continued how he was before. But he changed to become Champion material. It's what happens.

Fans STILL buy more Cena merchandise than anyone else. Over the last couple of years, WWE merchandise has shot through the roof in terms of items bought. And, their beliefs are mistaken, and you and I both already touched on why. People try to use various reasons to describe why Cena is a bad wrestler. But, go back over that list we made before with RVD, Umaga, Lashley, HBK, Khali, Orton, etc...how many times does Cena have to bring the best out of an opponent before people are going to realize he's a damn good wrestler? To say that Cena is not a good wrestler, when ALL signs point to the contrary, is a mistaken belief. Opinions can be wrong, and some opinions can be more valid than others. All opinions are not equal.

I disagree. People have said this about Hogan in the 80's, Shawn in the 90's, and Cena in the 00's. It isn't true. WWE do not get an extra 50% of fans just because of one person. A few % maybe, but not 50. VERY few people go to a show just for one person. And I can't say I like wrestling fans who do, because if that person left, so would they.

You can disagree all you want, but it doesn't make it any less true. With Cena as the headliner, WWE live event attendance increased both in 2005 and 2006 (haven't seen 2007 numbers yet). Raw ratings went up both in 2005 and 2006. Revenue generated into the company increased. Merchandise money increased. All with Cena on top.

Go back to the 80s, when the WWF would run three separate house shows all at one time. Hogan would lead the "A" show, I believe it was Savage who led the "B" show and many times it was tag teams like the Hart Foundation who would lead the "C" show. Guess which show did better? The "A" show, of course, even though top to bottom, it usually had a worse card than the "B" show in terms of names.

To say that the biggest draw in the company doesn't have an effect on attendance is naive.

To quote the American President (great film by the way), "People don't drink the sand because they're thirsty. They drink the sand because they don't know the difference. "

It is not that Cena sells, it is that he is the only option we have. Something gets shoved down our throat long enough, we will begin to accept it. But it can't be denied ratings have gone down in 2007 directly because of Cena.

Great movie, but poor translation into the wrestling world.

Fans don't have any other options? They don't have Smackdown, or ECW? They don't have two hours of other wrestlers on Raw? They don't have live events, numerous DVDs, and other various things the WWE does to promote their workers?

And, yes, it can be denied that ratings have gone down in 2007 directly because of Cena. Why? Because ECW ratings went down. Because there was a big steroid scandal. Because Chris Benoit killed his wife and child. But, sure, those things had no effect on ratings right? Please.

You know the story behind that right? He was pissed cause Hogan was popping up and leaving, again. Shawn was/is a legit, main evente currentlyr. And was being told to job to a 53 year old Hogan who hasn't wrestled full time since what, 2002 when he was way past his prime? I don't blame Shawn for overselling. It is asinine to have him job in that situation.

No, it actually makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure I should take the time to explain it, but I will.

First, HBK gains nothing from a victory there. Nothing. He also does not lose anything by getting beat. Nothing. So, it's just a dream match between two guys. But Hogan DOES have something to lose. A big paycheck. Vince McMahon also has something to lose. A big payday. Hulk Hogan is still one of the biggest draws in the business when promoted right. If McMahon turns Hogan into the next Mick Foley, then he is ruining the cash cow that is still Hulk Hogan. However, if Hogan is able to show that he can still take down some of the best guys in the world, then his drawing ability stays right where it is. Hogan isn't going to be a full-time wrestler, so it's imperative to keep his profile high so he can a) remain a huge draw for McMahon and b) REALLY put over the next guy who deserves it. Losing to HBK would have hurt Hogan's drawing ability and made the next guy who beats Hogan mean less.

Refuses to lose? Please name me even one time where HBK "refused" to lose, and back it up with some evidence. You can't. Because he hasn't, ever. HBK haters, such as yourself, have made up some fictional universe where HBK refused to lose to Bret Hart by "faking" a knee injury that took years off of HBK's career. What evidence is there for this claim? None. At all. Next will come the "but he refused to lose to Dean Douglas, remember?", which is also incredibly wrong considering that HBK got jumped by a group of sailors and was in the hospital.

Give me one example of him "refusing to lose".

Survivor Series 1997.

One thing that pissed Bret Hart off and one of the reasons that he did not want to lose to Shawn in Canada was the fact that Hart went up to HBK and said that whatever happens, he was willing to lose to HBK cleanly. HBK said something like "thanks man, I appreciate that, but I'm not willing to do the same". This is confirmed by HBK who has gone on record to say that he would not have lost to Hart because he felt it would have been silly to put Hart over on his way out of the company.

There. A prime, undeniable example of when HBK has refused to lose. And, you don't find it the slightest bit convenient that something always seems to come up when it's time for HBK to drop a belt?

So let me get this straight then---you have no excuse whatsoever for Hogans constant ridiculious overselling? So because thats his "gimmick" (when did overselling become Hogan's gimmick? I thought it was the whole Hulkamania thing?) its okay? This isn't the 80s anymore, and his overselling is ridiculious and insulting to watch.

You're right, it isn't the 80s anymore, which is why wrestling is worse now. So many workers today don't have the first clue about what it means to work the crowd or show psychology.

Hulk Hogan's "hulking up routine", first of all, is not overselling. Hulk Hogan is a fantastic seller, and sells appropriately almost always. His comeback routine is "no-selling", but there's a reason for that. It's great wrestling psychology. What is Hogan's gimmick? He's a superhero, right? Stronger than everyone else, the prototypical good guy, who always over comes evil. His hulking up gimmick is just like any other good vs. evil scenario. Evil takes advantage, and the good guy finds some incredible will to overcome. That's what Hogan is doing. He finds it through his incredible will, to come back and vanquish the forces of evil.

So, is it realistic? Sure it is. Just like when Maryland kicks the crap out of Duke for 39 minutes, and Duke goes on a 13-2 run in the last 1 minute of the game to tie the game and send it into overtime. Just like when a boxer gets hammered the first four rounds of a match, comes out swinging in the 5th round and scores a knockout. Just like a 2-out rally by the Arizona Diamondbacks in the World Series against Mariano Rivera and the Yankees to win the World Series. It's called a "second wind", or just a huge momentum. It happens and is real.

No shit they don't wrestle for free. That doesn't make it right for Hogan to want his paychecks to be getting bigger and bigger and bigger each time he works in a shitty 10 minute squash match at a PPV. He's asking for more money then some wrestlers make in monthes to do one terrible match every time he comes in (and my god are they total crap: Mr. America anyone?). If he gave a fuck about the fans, maybe he'd agree to appear on WWE once in a while without demanding a paycheck thats more then my house?

Wait...

In a free market economy, in a business with no unions and no benefits, you're blaming Hulk Hogan who made Vince one of the richest men in the country, for getting the best price for his services? How does that make sense? That's like blaming Roger Clemens for a $25 million dollar contract, or as it applies more closely to you, blaming Daisuke Matsuzaka for holding out for the same annual salary as a rookie that Josh Beckett makes. It's a silly assertion. Hulk Hogan is more than justified to hold out for what he feels he is worth.

If you want to blame anyone, blame Vince McMahon. It's not like Hogan can wrestle or get paid if McMahon doesn't want to. That's just blind hate on Hogan.

So, what is the point of all of this? The point is that, at best HBK is equal in ability as he was back in the mid 90s, and a good argument can be made that he is less interested now than before (which is where the Hogan/Cena/HBK arguments come from). His drawing ability is comparable to what it was before (maybe slightly better), but his long term drawing potential is pretty much extinct. Thus, leading myself to vote that HBK is past his prime.

 

[cueballharman]

for me its hard to say if HBK is past his prime, basically because he can still put on a good match with a poor oponent. I mean dont get me wron, ric flair was good, but if you stick him in a match with say, Snitsky, that match will stink but because Flair needs someone who can tell a story as oppose to sell chop after chop after Woooo! HBK is still athletic enough to carry a match, and doesnt need a good opponent to have a good match. However, he is prone to injury which obviously doesnt help. HBK isnt past it yet, but is somewhat near to being out of the picture.

 

[X]

Survivor Series 1997.

One thing that pissed Bret Hart off and one of the reasons that he did not want to lose to Shawn in Canada was the fact that Hart went up to HBK and said that whatever happens, he was willing to lose to HBK cleanly. HBK said something like "thanks man, I appreciate that, but I'm not willing to do the same". This is confirmed by HBK who has gone on record to say that he would not have lost to Hart because he felt it would have been silly to put Hart over on his way out of the company.

There. A prime, undeniable example of when HBK has refused to lose. And, you don't find it the slightest bit convenient that something always seems to come up when it's time for HBK to drop a belt?

This is what I'm talking about Sly. Where is the evidence for this? HBK admitted it? Can I see some evidence for that? I don't doubt you Sly, it's just that over the last 10 years so much bullshit has become supposed "fact" about HBK. You bringing up Survivor Series 97 though makes no sense, considering that was Bret Hart who refused to lose and was the stubborn asshole, not HBK. If he did say "I'm not willing to do the same" around that same time as SS 97, you know what I'd say? He shouldn't of been. Bret Hart was on his way out to the rival company. You don't build a guy up before he leaves---you job him to people. Thats been the rule in wrestling since the dawning of time, and it would have been bullshit for them to put Bret Hart over HBK before he was about to leave, total bullshit. People seem to forget that this is a business, and as much as Bret Hart contributed to the WWE and is lauded as one of the best of all time (and rightly so), he was still on his way out to the rival company in a time of desperation in the WWE. Nitro was still winning the ratings war, and one of the WWE's biggest stars jumps to the rival company. He didn't deserve to be put over by HBK.

You're right, it isn't the 80s anymore, which is why wrestling is worse now. So many workers today don't have the first clue about what it means to work the crowd or show psychology.

Hulk Hogan's "hulking up routine", first of all, is not overselling. Hulk Hogan is a fantastic seller, and sells appropriately almost always. His comeback routine is "no-selling", but there's a reason for that. It's great wrestling psychology. What is Hogan's gimmick? He's a superhero, right? Stronger than everyone else, the prototypical good guy, who always over comes evil. His hulking up gimmick is just like any other good vs. evil scenario. Evil takes advantage, and the good guy finds some incredible will to overcome. That's what Hogan is doing. He finds it through his incredible will, to come back and vanquish the forces of evil.

So, is it realistic? Sure it is. Just like when Maryland kicks the crap out of Duke for 39 minutes, and Duke goes on a 13-2 run in the last 1 minute of the game to tie the game and send it into overtime. Just like when a boxer gets hammered the first four rounds of a match, comes out swinging in the 5th round and scores a knockout. Just like a 2-out rally by the Arizona Diamondbacks in the World Series against Mariano Rivera and the Yankees to win the World Series. It's called a "second wind", or just a huge momentum. It happens and is real.

I know what you're saying about the Hulking up routine. But if you're going to say that its realistic, then HBK's overselling in their match was perfectly realistic as well. To say it wasn't would contradict what you're saying about Hulk.

Wait...

In a free market economy, in a business with no unions and no benefits, you're blaming Hulk Hogan who made Vince one of the richest men in the country, for getting the best price for his services? How does that make sense? That's like blaming Roger Clemens for a $25 million dollar contract, or as it applies more closely to you, blaming Daisuke Matsuzaka for holding out for the same annual salary as a rookie that Josh Beckett makes. It's a silly assertion. Hulk Hogan is more than justified to hold out for what he feels he is worth.

If you want to blame anyone, blame Vince McMahon. It's not like Hogan can wrestle or get paid if McMahon doesn't want to. That's just blind hate on Hogan.

So, what is the point of all of this? The point is that, at best HBK is equal in ability as he was back in the mid 90s, and a good argument can be made that he is less interested now than before (which is where the Hogan/Cena/HBK arguments come from). His drawing ability is comparable to what it was before (maybe slightly better), but his long term drawing potential is pretty much extinct. Thus, leading myself to vote that HBK is past his prime.

I don't blame Hogan for wanting big paychecks, he deserves the big paychecks, but that doesn't change the fact that he is already ridiculiously rich, and it wouldn't kill him to make an appearance every now and then without having to break the WWE's bank to do so. Every other legend does it, Austin, Foley, the Rock, etc. It's a show of respect to the fans. Just a god damn cameo on an episode of RAW is what I'm asking, not a 60 minute match with Ric Flair. And Hogan would never do that. Because he doesn't give a fuck about his fans. I remember when I was like 15 years old, when Hogan had first returned to RAW after WCW died, waiting outside of the arena in Providence here, and seeing Hulk Hogan walk by maybe two hundred fans, many little kids, and not even take the time for a god damn wave. Not even a nod. Forget the autographs we all wanted, he couldn't even acknowledge we existed? Same thing when he left too from what I heard from my buddy. Thats bullshit. He owes everything he has to us fans. And he doesn't respect us at all. Thats my point here.

As for the actual topic of the thread...yes, I agree, HBK is past his prime. "Prime" for me means HBK 92-98, or Hogan from 80-94. Flair from 80-94 as well. Thats a "prime" to me. It doesn't mean they aren't still talented and great wrestlers, Just not in their "prime".

 

[Grubbs0621]

Great movie, but poor translation into the wrestling world.

Fans don't have any other options? They don't have Smackdown, or ECW? They don't have two hours of other wrestlers on Raw? They don't have live events, numerous DVDs, and other various things the WWE does to promote their workers?

And, yes, it can be denied that ratings have gone down in 2007 directly because of Cena. Why? Because ECW ratings went down. Because there was a big steroid scandal. Because Chris Benoit killed his wife and child. But, sure, those things had no effect on ratings right? Please.

I don't think it is that poor of a translation. The quote was in reference to a candidate being the one to only speak out on tv. They were other options for viewers at home, change the channels, etc, go to different level of politics, etc.

Raw is the show with the most appeal (Cena,Orton,HHH,HBK,Hardy,etc), the most stars, so it is the show most people will tune into. But of that show, who is the guy, every week, that is the main highlight of the show.

Now, you will argue that he should be main focus point because he draws the most. Now on the flip side, I argue he draws the most because we are told he should draw the most. He is advertised the most, on tv the most, in magazines the most. He is shoved down our throats, and if you are a WWE fan, you have no choice but watch Cena be the focal point of the company.

The DX dvd, outsold the John Cena dvd in 2007 by 80,000 units. The HBK dvd were a mere 19,000 units behind Cena's. I can't seem to find t-shirt sale numbers, would be more interested in seeing those.

Source: http://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2008/117/bobby_lashley_313776.shtml

Why is it the companie's big draw, is having problems outselling a guy apparently past his prime according to some? There is a big problem with this. I can remember the WWE crowd at one point being red and yellow. The entire crowd was finishing Stone Cold's lines. Cena doesn't do this. I don't see this drawing ability you claim he has.

I am not saying Cena is the only reason ratings have gone down. Many things effects ratings, but I am holding firm to the view point that Cena has lowered ratings in 2007. Look at the crowds now, the biggest "babyface" draws so much heat it is comparable to heels.

So lets see, the crowd isn't being him, his merchandise isn't selling the way it should be, and he is bringing nothing new. Several things have contributed as you pointed out to the decrease ratings, and John Cena is one of them.

Now, how does this relate to HBK? As I have been claiming, Cena is being forced down out throats. People claim HBK can't draw the way Cena can (despite his merchandise not being that far behind). He without a doubt has more of the crowd behind him. If HBK was to be made, the main man of Raw for a few months, I am certain that HBK would draw BETTER than Cena is currently drawing. HBK can still put on a hell of a performance, entertain the fans. Without a doubt he could draw. And draw big he would, if he was made the face of Raw for a few months, half a year maybe.

No, it actually makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure I should take the time to explain it, but I will.

First, HBK gains nothing from a victory there. Nothing. He also does not lose anything by getting beat. Nothing. So, it's just a dream match between two guys. But Hogan DOES have something to lose. A big paycheck. Vince McMahon also has something to lose. A big payday. Hulk Hogan is still one of the biggest draws in the business when promoted right. If McMahon turns Hogan into the next Mick Foley, then he is ruining the cash cow that is still Hulk Hogan. However, if Hogan is able to show that he can still take down some of the best guys in the world, then his drawing ability stays right where it is. Hogan isn't going to be a full-time wrestler, so it's imperative to keep his profile high so he can a) remain a huge draw for McMahon and b) REALLY put over the next guy who deserves it. Losing to HBK would have hurt Hogan's drawing ability and made the next guy who beats Hogan mean less.

Hogan draws, period. You could put him against anyone on the roster, and people would turn out, for Hogan. Get that nostalgia feel going. Why have one of your companies current, biggest stars, lose to a retired wrestler? The HBK vs Hogan match should of never happened in the first place. It should of been Hogan vs some midcard heel. It would of had such a big draw, Hogan would of won and got the payday, McMahon would of got his payday.

HBK does have something to lose. Credibility. Hogan is retired. HBK is one of the top guys in the company. You've got a guy, comes out of retirement for one big match, who for the record, looks old, and beats one of the the top guys currently wrestling.

It puts a bad feel on today's wrestling and wrestlers. HBK should not have been put in that match against Hogan, never should of happened to begin with.

 

[Slyfox696]

This is what I'm talking about Sly. Where is the evidence for this? HBK admitted it? Can I see some evidence for that?

I've been trying to remember for a while where I found that out. I don't remember if it was his book, or a shoot interview, or where it was, because HBK has admitted to it.

I don't doubt you Sly, it's just that over the last 10 years so much bullshit has become supposed "fact" about HBK. You bringing up Survivor Series 97 though makes no sense, considering that was Bret Hart who refused to lose and was the stubborn asshole, not HBK. If he did say "I'm not willing to do the same" around that same time as SS 97, you know what I'd say? He shouldn't of been. Bret Hart was on his way out to the rival company. You don't build a guy up before he leaves---you job him to people. Thats been the rule in wrestling since the dawning of time, and it would have been bullshit for them to put Bret Hart over HBK before he was about to leave, total bullshit. People seem to forget that this is a business, and as much as Bret Hart contributed to the WWE and is lauded as one of the best of all time (and rightly so), he was still on his way out to the rival company in a time of desperation in the WWE. Nitro was still winning the ratings war, and one of the WWE's biggest stars jumps to the rival company. He didn't deserve to be put over by HBK.

Totally irrelevant to the discussion about HBK refusing to work with someone.

I know what you're saying about the Hulking up routine. But if you're going to say that its realistic, then HBK's overselling in their match was perfectly realistic as well. To say it wasn't would contradict what you're saying about Hulk.

How is getting kicked in the face, falling down, jumping up and running around flailing arms wildly, just to fall down and lay completely motionless realistic? It's not. It was childish and unprofessional.

I don't blame Hogan for wanting big paychecks, he deserves the big paychecks, but that doesn't change the fact that he is already ridiculiously rich, and it wouldn't kill him to make an appearance every now and then without having to break the WWE's bank to do so. Every other legend does it, Austin, Foley, the Rock, etc. It's a show of respect to the fans. Just a god damn cameo on an episode of RAW is what I'm asking, not a 60 minute match with Ric Flair. And Hogan would never do that.

Really?

So who was that I saw save Hornswoggle on Raw from Khali back on the season premiere? Must have been a lookalike correct? Hogan appeared in 2005 at the HOF, Backlash, a couple of Raws and Summerslam. He appeared in 2006 in the feud with Orton on a SNME at least once, a couple of Raws and Summerslam, plus inducted someone in the 2006 HOF. He was going to appear at Wrestlemania this year, but had a falling out with Vince, but did appear at the Raw 3 hour season premiere.

So, what are you talking about?

Because he doesn't give a fuck about his fans.

HAHAHAHAHA. Right. Even Bret Hart, who refused to even glance at Hogan during his HOF induction in 2006, has gone on record as talking Hogan as one of the few guys in the business who spends every moment possible with fans.

I remember when I was like 15 years old, when Hogan had first returned to RAW after WCW died, waiting outside of the arena in Providence here, and seeing Hulk Hogan walk by maybe two hundred fans, many little kids, and not even take the time for a god damn wave. Not even a nod. Forget the autographs we all wanted, he couldn't even acknowledge we existed? Same thing when he left too from what I heard from my buddy. Thats bullshit. He owes everything he has to us fans. And he doesn't respect us at all. Thats my point here.

No, he doesn't owe you a god damn thing once the show is over. You pay to see the show, he goes out and performs, and his contractual obligation to you is over. He doesn't owe you a damn thing.

But, with that aside, Hogan is well respected for many times going out of his way for fans, signing autographs for hours, seeing sick children, etc. Who knows why he did that your particular night. Maybe he had been inside signing autographs for 45 minutes before that. Maybe he had to catch a plane. Maybe he was just completely wore out and ready to get home and relax. His job was over, and maybe he just wanted to go home. Ever felt like that after work? I know I have.

I'm going to direct you to a thread I made where Hart talked about Hogan.
http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=15739

Read that.

I don't think it is that poor of a translation. The quote was in reference to a candidate being the one to only speak out on tv. They were other options for viewers at home, change the channels, etc, go to different level of politics, etc.

Raw is the show with the most appeal (Cena,Orton,HHH,HBK,Hardy,etc), the most stars, so it is the show most people will tune into. But of that show, who is the guy, every week, that is the main highlight of the show.

He wasn't always that guy though. He had to prove that he was, and did so, which is why he got the belt. Would you deny though that his matches garner the most appeal? Have you seen a Randy Orton match that is consistently as vocal as a Cena.

People can watch Smackdown. They can watch ECW. They can watch MMA. They can watch TNA. They have plenty of options. They choose Cena.

Now, you will argue that he should be main focus point because he draws the most. Now on the flip side, I argue he draws the most because we are told he should draw the most. He is advertised the most, on tv the most, in magazines the most. He is shoved down our throats, and if you are a WWE fan, you have no choice but watch Cena be the focal point of the company.

Unless you don't watch Raw and just watch Smackdown, ECW, TNA, or MMA....

The DX dvd, outsold the John Cena dvd in 2007 by 80,000 units. The HBK dvd were a mere 19,000 units behind Cena's. I can't seem to find t-shirt sale numbers, would be more interested in seeing those.

Source: http://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2008/117/bobby_lashley_313776.shtml

Why is it the companie's big draw, is having problems outselling a guy apparently past his prime according to some? There is a big problem with this. I can remember the WWE crowd at one point being red and yellow. The entire crowd was finishing Stone Cold's lines. Cena doesn't do this. I don't see this drawing ability you claim he has.

HAHAHA

I don't suppose the fact that the DX DVD came out in Febuary, and the Cena DVD came out in November had anything to do with the difference of sales. What do you think?

Not to mention the HBK DVD is compilation of HBK's career work with a background story as Cena's DVD is just about Cena's life with a few matches. The fact that Cena's DVD sold 133,000 copies in 2 months (and I don't think it's even come out in the UK yet), with the content it has speaks volumes of Cena's drawing ability.

I am not saying Cena is the only reason ratings have gone down. Many things effects ratings, but I am holding firm to the view point that Cena has lowered ratings in 2007. Look at the crowds now, the biggest "babyface" draws so much heat it is comparable to heels.

If you hold that belief, than you have to say that Cena is the reason they went up in 2005 and 2006 then. And they did...both years.

Now, how does this relate to HBK? As I have been claiming, Cena is being forced down out throats. People claim HBK can't draw the way Cena can (despite his merchandise not being that far behind). He without a doubt has more of the crowd behind him. If HBK was to be made, the main man of Raw for a few months, I am certain that HBK would draw BETTER than Cena is currently drawing. HBK can still put on a hell of a performance, entertain the fans. Without a doubt he could draw. And draw big he would, if he was made the face of Raw for a few months, half a year maybe.

Including your entirely flawed theory of how HBK draws as well as Cena, there is nothing to suggest that a long HBK reign would do anything but lower HBK's drawing ability.

Hogan draws, period. You could put him against anyone on the roster, and people would turn out, for Hogan. Get that nostalgia feel going. Why have one of your companies current, biggest stars, lose to a retired wrestler? The HBK vs Hogan match should of never happened in the first place. It should of been Hogan vs some midcard heel. It would of had such a big draw, Hogan would of won and got the payday, McMahon would of got his payday.

HBK does have something to lose. Credibility. Hogan is retired. HBK is one of the top guys in the company. You've got a guy, comes out of retirement for one big match, who for the record, looks old, and beats one of the the top guys currently wrestling.

What credibility did HBK lose? Anyone think he was any less good? Was he not main-eventing Wrestlemana just a year and a half later? What credibility was lost to losing to the greatest wrestler in America ever?

 

[BooCocky]

On a different note, is it believable for him to beat Shawn anyway? Personally I'd say yes, but your sentence of 'I am betetr than you' made me think, because Kennedy isn't better than Shawn.

But Shawn needs to put people over, and lets see if he does it on the biggest stage of em all

Why? What have they done that's so great that Shawn hasn't. Apart from Undertaker, which of them have left the WWE for stupid reasons? Definately The Rock and Austin. Maybe even Hogan. So in order for you to respect what Shawn's done, he has to leave to film a movie and forget about his WWe fans that made him?

What do you mean? Austin is retired, he has a bad neck(I think), The Rock is making movies, and Hogan is retired... Austin and the Rock are all times greats, who have done everything, they were the main focus during the attitude era, where those two have put on great and memorable segments, and matches.. Those tow are possibly the biggest draw the industry has ever seen. I dont care what Shawn does he could stay around till he is forty for all i care. Hogan retired because of age and the shae of his poor ligaments, Austin retired because of his neck and the Rock made a career choice. they were bigger superstars in a shorter period of time, so neither of them left for stupid reasons.

But he isn't the only one who does that.

But he is the key ingredient

Yeah I know, but still. They could be bad (I aren't saying they are), but we've already bought it so it'd be too late to do anything about it.

Call and complain that your satellite dish wasnt working? or call about the cable company... I did this a few times

Seriously, watch before the Rockers, watch after.

ANd this will tell me how they revolutionized tag team wrestling?

Well it didn't. He was out of contract after this match, he could do what he wanted. And I don't think anyone believed he wouldn't take it. Vince certainly didn't, and he knows WWE and the wrestlers better than anyone.

But trust in ones worker is awesome..his word should mean something, and it isn;t like HBK ever refused to lose.

Did you have your TV on mute?

that is laughable, he got a 10 second pop, and the crowd was dead throughout... That was the worst main event i have seen in quite sometime. The crowd was so dead it was ridiculous...

But that doesn't mean they'd stop watching WWE also. The same could be said for any other wrestler. If Shawn left to go somewhere else, I would follow. But I wouldn't stop watching the WWE because he's not the only reason I do watch it.

those TNA fans coul still be watching both, but that still helps the other promotion now doesnt it?

Shawn was a wrestler not a commisioner too, but he still returned. Hogan's top priority isn't the fans, I think that much is obvious.

How, when he tries to spend time with some, and he constantly talks about his fans? I had the pleasure to meet him once at a GMC(Vitamin Store) in Downtown Pittsburgh, and he was an all around nice guy... and this was a day or two after the Benoit incident, and he still stayed around to socialize

He only did what all the wrestlers on the roster do week in and week out.

But his was in his fifties, with two bad knees, and a fake hip... I dont see many wrestlers performing day to day with a fake hip and two bad knees.

This could have turned into a good feud. They are both good workers, and could put on a lot of good matches.

But it drew, and thats all VInce wanted. money money money

However, it would be like putting on a staged Baseball game and having Sandy Koufax returning and sriking out Alex Rodriquez.

Hey, if Koufax can go out their and strike out A-Rod at his age, more power to him, but i fail to see where you are heading.

Don't know if you're a baseball guy. Hmm, I see you've got a football related signature. Jim Brown showing up and running over Brian Urlacher?

Have you seen Jim Brown? For a guy into his sixties(I think) he is still in good shape.... In high school i scored a basket on Dejuan Blair(Pitt hoops player), but that didnt ruin his creditability as a basketball player

This would completely ruin Rodriquez and Urlacher's credibility. To have someone who is ages past their prime schooling them. If Hogan wants to do his lil return gigs from time to time, he needs to show up, and wrestle mid card names with big marketing ability. Like Khali and his size for example.

If Brown and Koufax could still outperform those people i see No problem too it...If Hogan returned it would draw, end of story, it would excite the crowd, and it would make tons of money, so why cant Hogan return or why cant Hogan win? Huge draws and biggest faces usually do win in this day and age...

 

[Grubbs0621]

HAHAHAHAHA. Right. Even Bret Hart, who refused to even glance at Hogan during his HOF induction in 2006, has gone on record as talking Hogan as one of the few guys in the business who spends every moment possible with fans.

But, with that aside, Hogan is well respected for many times going out of his way for fans, signing autographs for hours, seeing sick children, etc. Who knows why he did that your particular night. Maybe he had been inside signing autographs for 45 minutes before that. Maybe he had to catch a plane. Maybe he was just completely wore out and ready to get home and relax. His job was over, and maybe he just wanted to go home. Ever felt like that after work? I know I have.

Yeah, I have read that about Hogan a lot. I think it grew out of him with age though and as he got his own family (which I completely and totally understand). As his kids got older, he seemed to fade away from the fans more.

People can watch Smackdown. They can watch ECW. They can watch MMA. They can watch TNA. They have plenty of options. They choose Cena.

Unless you don't watch Raw and just watch Smackdown, ECW, TNA, or MMA....

I don't think we are on the same page. That's cool, if everyone always saw eye to eye world would be boring as hell. I've been watching Raw so long, grew up on it. I feel a loyalty to RAW, and am going to watch it. I dunno, it sounds stupid to me, so I can imagine how it sounds to you.

I don't suppose the fact that the DX DVD came out in Febuary, and the Cena DVD came out in November had anything to do with the difference of sales. What do you think?

Really? Had no idea. I don't watch Wrestling DVDs, just remember the news post from a week or two ago. And that does put a little dent in that entire little point I had right there.

Not to mention the HBK DVD is compilation of HBK's career work with a background story as Cena's DVD is just about Cena's life with a few matches. The fact that Cena's DVD sold 133,000 copies in 2 months (and I don't think it's even come out in the UK yet), with the content it has speaks volumes of Cena's drawing ability.

It does appear as it I have underestimated Cena's drawing ability, however, I still believe in the drawing ability of HBK.

If you hold that belief, than you have to say that Cena is the reason they went up in 2005 and 2006 then. And they did...both years.

Without a doubt he helped ratings go up then, it was new and fresh. I think it has become stale, and repitive, and IMO, didn't evolve the way I would of hoped a Champion would of. I think Cena has great potential, I am just talk about his current performance and drawing ability compared to what HBK could do. I've always wondered if his declining popularity is related to the Marines gimmick as the war has lost support. But thats a different subjct for a different thread.

Including your entirely flawed theory of how HBK draws as well as Cena, there is nothing to suggest that a long HBK reign would do anything but lower HBK's drawing ability.

What are you using to suggest a 3-4 month HBK reign would lower his drawing ability? I hear nothing but crowds getting louder for him, bigger cheers. Great matches. Loo at the Taker, hes been around just as long as, has had a similar career, and is doing huge things on Smackdown, and many people believed he is in line for an extended title run later on this year

What credibility did HBK lose? Anyone think he was any less good? Was he not main-eventing Wrestlemana just a year and a half later? What credibility was lost to losing to the greatest wrestler in America ever?

The same credibility that Umaga is losing for cause he can't win a match on Raw, that MVP lost tonight for tapping to a guy who is closing in on being a senior citizen, etc. Sure he headlined events, still, and it looks great and credible. But here we are, what? 2 plus years later and it is still being talked about. Thats gotta do some damage to credibility.

 

[Grubbs0621]

Hey, if Koufax can go out their and strike out A-Rod at his age, more power to him, but i fail to see where you are heading.

Have you seen Jim Brown? For a guy into his sixties(I think) he is still in good shape.... In high school i scored a basket on Dejuan Blair(Pitt hoops player), but that didnt ruin his creditability as a basketball player


If Brown and Koufax could still outperform those people i see No problem too it...If Hogan returned it would draw, end of story, it would excite the crowd, and it would make tons of money, so why cant Hogan return or why cant Hogan win? Huge draws and biggest faces usually do win in this day and age...

There are two keys. Wrestling and Entertainment. Hogan can't wrestle anymore. He can entertain, great entertainer, but he is no longer able to wrestle.

You need to have both parts there. It is just not about money. It is also about the quality of the product.

 

[d'lo_brown_kurt_angle]

man anyone else have the feeling that HBK is going to hang up the boots around next year? I really like him as a wrestler. Hell, he's the only reason why I watch the WWE now but he looks to be past his prime. Funny thing is he's still better than most superstars even when he isnt the same.

 

[Vee Dub Represent]

yes, of course shawn is past his prime. Not because he sucks or anything now, but a natural human being is not in the prime of his athletic career at 42 years old in any sport (except maybe curling lol). He is still great but definately has lost a step or two.

 

[robwylde90]

HBK - Has been kid. I see people ripping into Cena every day on this forum because he only does 6 moves , no one seems to mention hbks atomic drop scoop slam elbow SCM combo, isnt that effectively 4 moves of doom? watching HBK matches like bad blood 97' against taker, compared to now make the idea that HBK isnt past his best simply laughable. The guy still sells merch just as well as anyone on the roster and thats why Vince keeps HBK in the limelight, not because hes as fresh and exciting as ever, but because the fans love shawn and that makes Vince a lot of green paper.
So yeah its pretty clear to me at least, that shawn is still a great entertainer , a great showman, hes still the showstoppa, but not for the same reason as he was 10 years ago. 10 years ago shawn sold because he was simply that damn good, probably pound for pound the best wrestler in WWE, except maybe for the excellence of execution, but in history who really has been better than the hitman? I still find michael hickenbottom as entertaining as ever , from his corny shopzone references (the one at the rumble made me laugh a hell of a lot more than any hornswoggle segment ever has) to his great ability to work with one guys and make them look like an equal to him, rather than inferior. But when it comes to pure wrestling ability , shawn is way past his best work.

 

[Slyfox696]

Yeah, I have read that about Hogan a lot. I think it grew out of him with age though and as he got his own family (which I completely and totally understand). As his kids got older, he seemed to fade away from the fans more.

Nah, I seriously doubt that. I think it's just more of a case where he isn't a full-time worker, so you don't hear about it as much. Not to mention he's been in the business for 30+ years. After a while, I could certainly understand why a guy might be tired of signing autographs after 30 years, especially working the schedule Hogan worked for so long.

I don't think we are on the same page. That's cool, if everyone always saw eye to eye world would be boring as hell. I've been watching Raw so long, grew up on it. I feel a loyalty to RAW, and am going to watch it. I dunno, it sounds stupid to me, so I can imagine how it sounds to you.

That's fine. I understand that loyalty. Doesn't mean you don't have other options. And that saying Cena is forced down your throat just really isn't accurate. If you feel he is forced down your throat that is because you are unwilling to look at the alternatives, not because the WWE doesn't offer you the alternatives. At which point, it is unfair to criticize Cena or the WWE for what you are unwilling to watch.

Really? Had no idea. I don't watch Wrestling DVDs, just remember the news post from a week or two ago. And that does put a little dent in that entire little point I had right there.

Yeah, maybe a little dent.

I smiled when I read that comment. I didn't know when they came out officially, I just new the DX DVD came out early in the year and Cena's came out late. So, I looked them up on Amazon.

It does appear as it I have underestimated Cena's drawing ability, however, I still believe in the drawing ability of HBK.

I will say that HBK's drawing has improved as he's gotten older, but his potential to draw I can't imagine being very good. Unless he happens to be at the right place with the right idea (ala Hogan and nWo), I don't see HBK ever drawing more than he does now.

Without a doubt he helped ratings go up then, it was new and fresh. I think it has become stale, and repitive, and IMO, didn't evolve the way I would of hoped a Champion would of. I think Cena has great potential, I am just talk about his current performance and drawing ability compared to what HBK could do. I've always wondered if his declining popularity is related to the Marines gimmick as the war has lost support. But thats a different subjct for a different thread.

I think the decline in ratings in 2007 had more to do with steroids and murder/suicides as John Cena. I need to run the numbers when I get home what the average rating for Raw was before Chris Benoit killed his family and compare it to 05 and 06.

What are you using to suggest a 3-4 month HBK reign would lower his drawing ability?

The fact that he's had two "long" reigns. The first one he was clearly the head of the company, and ratings tanked, as did PPV buys (back in 1996). His second reign in 97-98 did not fare well until Steve Austin really started catching fire and was put in the title chase. So, while the ratings went up during HBK's reign i think most would agree that is due more to Austin than HBK. That is the only evidence we have of a long HBK run and how it would draw.

But, it's a moot point anyways as HBK has stated several times he does not want the title.

The same credibility that Umaga is losing for cause he can't win a match on Raw, that MVP lost tonight for tapping to a guy who is closing in on being a senior citizen, etc. Sure he headlined events, still, and it looks great and credible. But here we are, what? 2 plus years later and it is still being talked about. Thats gotta do some damage to credibility.

The difference is that HBK went over in the next few feuds he had. He went over in his feud with Masters, went over in his feud with McMahon, went over in the DX vs. McMahons/Spirit Squad feud...in fact, has HBK lost a feud since Hogan? He split with Cena and won the last match...I guess the case could be made that he lost the feud to Orton, although he came out of the feud both times without ever putting Orton over (never got pinned by Orton during the injury and kicked Orton out 8 times in their mini-feud). THAT'S why HBK hasn't lost credibility.

Losing one match to the greatest wrestler in the world didn't hurt his credibility a bit. And, even if it did, he's gone over more than enough guys since to have built it back up.

 

[wicked]

I was watching the Bret Hart wrestling with shadows doc. the other night, a great documentary btw, and there is lots of footage and comments by and about HBK, mostly DX stuff. It just reminded me how good of a heel he was, and how it is too bad we cant really see that anymore. I think there is definately a place for Michaels, and if that involves putting over young talent for a while so be it!

 

[Grubbs0621]

The fact that he's had two "long" reigns. The first one he was clearly the head of the company, and ratings tanked, as did PPV buys (back in 1996). His second reign in 97-98 did not fare well until Steve Austin really started catching fire and was put in the title chase. So, while the ratings went up during HBK's reign i think most would agree that is due more to Austin than HBK. That is the only evidence we have of a long HBK run and how it would draw.

After he won the title in 96, for the next 8 weeks or so RAW so some of the highest ratings of 96, including the only 4s of the year. Ratings didn't begin to tank until the summer. What happened then? Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Hulk Hogan, and the NWO. WWE had nothing at the time to compete with that storyline.

But, it's a moot point anyways as HBK has stated several times he does not want the title.

True, but we are the customer. And ain't the customer always right? We want him to get the title. Didn't you see the crowd at WM23? They were itching for Shawn to get the title. :- )

Losing one match to the greatest wrestler in the world didn't hurt his credibility a bit. And, even if it did, he's gone over more than enough guys since to have built it back up.

I am going with build back up. But once again, difference of opinions, and quite frankly, I don't feel like making a rebuttal to explain my opinion. I think my point been made more than clear through my series of posts, and I'll be more than happy to save me time and go get ready for the day I've got ahead of me.

 

[ddemps03]

Shawn is past his prime which is bad news for the WWE because he remains the best in ring wrestler IMO. That being said he can still be relevant, even in his current role, if he'd simply be more of a heel. He's naturally arrogant and does his best work in a heel role with a partner or "body guard". He's still my favorite wrestler but the old "lays down for nobody" attitude needs to come back a little bit because at this point beating HBK isn't becoming a big deal...who hasnt got a pinfall or submission on him in the past year?

 

[Highlight Reel]

I don't think HBK has the spark as he used too(Not to mention he needs a shave), and I think his back and age is to blame... I like Shawn, but I doubt he'll last much longer. What he should be doing now is putting the younger stars over for a better future. Sure, he'll stay involved in the main event picture, but I don't think he'll ever hit the big one again. Unless they want to give him the title one last time before retirement, which thats only an "If"

 

[BRandonkin]

i don't know, I know he not the same HBK but he been able to adapt to stay entertaining despite his injury. I mean he just won his fourth straight match of the year and 8th overall. He is doing pretty well for a man on the decline.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Of course there is. But, like I said more, there's a reason why more fans show up when Cena is on the card than when he's not.

Yet I see no evidence to prove that. All the shows have still been full, all PPV's still sold out. Rayings still being high.

The silly part of this is how people actually believe that one person's opinion is as valid as anothers.

I think the silly part is you actually undermining other people's opinions just because they aren't the same as yours actually.

You're entirely missing the point. The point is that it didn't matter who won or who lost the Summerslam match, because neither one of them would gain or lose after the match. It was a "Dream Match", and neither man's reputation would be hurt. It just came down to the fact that Vince McMahon liked Hogan winning more than Shawn.

Because Hogan made more money then left again. I'm starting to see the pattern in WWE actually, I mean, Cena just came back and won the Rumble.

Not a problem. Hopefully after admitting Cena's work with Khali was the best possible job done, and his match with Lashley was a good one, maybe you might change your mind about Cena's ability.

And, when doing so, you'll start to agree that the Raw match had less to do with HBK carrying Cena, but rather both men working very well together to create a great match.

At the end of the day, I understand Cena has had some good matches but he still bores me. His gimmick, his matches his championship reign. And he's supposed to be one of the biggest faces, yet got booed a hell of a lot at Raw and even the Rumble so I've been told. Right anyway...thread about Shawn. In that match, I aren't saying Shawn completely carried Cena in this match, because it was 60 minutes of genius and a great match. But I still believe after re-watching that match that Shawn is what made it turn great.

And, that's just about all the major feuds Cena has had over the last couple of years. And, you're agreeing that most of the best matches were with Cena. Surely you cannot believe that is coincidence, or the result of the OTHER guy?

I aren't saying that it was a coincidence. And I keep praising Cena for things yet everyone seems to want me to say he's the best, it won't happen. Those are some of those wrestlers best matches. They weren't THE best apart from the few I said. I still can't remember how we got onto Cena anyway. Lol

Well, of course moves are needed, but which moves are totally arbitrary. Actually, that's not even true, as each wrestler should use moves that take advantage of their "strengths" and what fits their gimmick, but classifying a wrestler as good because of the moves he does, and saying another isn't because of a different set of moves is just not right. It makes more sense for a incredibly strong guy like Cena to use power moves, punches, slams, etc. It makes more sense for a guy like HBK to use more high-impact, aerial and some submission moves to beat an opponent. THAT is part of what makes up a wrestlers psychology (only part of it). That's why people criticizing Cena or Hogan, and saying he's not a good wrestler because of the moves he does, or the number of moves he does is dumb.

I didn't say if a wrestler does different moves to another it makes them a bad wrestler. Where did that come from? I'm saying that no matter what moves a wrestler uses, it's the way they put them together that matters, the way they use them to put on a show for the audience. The way Shawn does that is really good, and he puts on a different show. Most wrestlers only have about 5 proper moves, so it can't really be used against anyone.

Working the crowd is quite possibly THE more important aspect of professional wrestling. First of all, maybe you aren't fully understanding of the term "working the crowd". Working the crowd, or workrate for short, is the ability of a wrestler to make a fan believe what he or she is watching is real, and not scripted. There's a difference between working a crowd and playing to a crowd. Playing to a crowd means that you look at them, you make hand motions at them, you yell "Whats Up" so they'll yell back, etc. Working a crowd is making the crowd become emotionally invested in you and your character, through the story you tell in the ring. Sure, playing to the crowd is part of working a crowd, but the actual in-ring action is essential as well. If moves are sloppy, ill-timed or illogical, then the crowd loses interest, and the illusion that the match is real is gone. Hogan was incredibly at working the crowd, making them care. He was great at selling, and used phenomenal ring psychology. That's why he is so great.

When you talk about Angle, you're talking because of the pretty moves he could do, and the athleticism he possessed. Well, that's really a lacking description. There's a reason why Shawn Michaels is a better wrestler than Angle, and that's because HBK is more complete as a wrestler. He's better at working a crowd, better at selling (Angle is terrible at selling), and understands more about wrestling psychology than Angle ever will.

Those same qualities are what makes Savage and Hogan and HBK and Cena all great. That's what makes them great wrestlers.

Well when a wrestler posses both of these, such as someone like Shawn Michaels does, it truely makes them great at what they do. Some wrestlers are great at different things. With Cena and Hogan it's selling and working the audience. With Angle it's his athelticism. With very few such as Shawn it's both.

But the selling aspect isn't what makes them great wrestlers, you need to be able to wrestle to do that. Cena and Hogan obviously can because they're in a wrestling ring, but if they didn't have the ability to work the crowd, they'd be left with nothing, and if there were no audience there would be no good match.

You mean when Hulk Hogan hits HBK with "the big boot", and HBK goes down, pops up, runs around flailing his arms wildly just to lay down again...you don't consider that atrocious overselling? It was a mockery of the match.

You don't think the idea of the match wasn't a mockery anyway? But moving on from that, parts of that were just entertaining, Shawn was the heel after all. But the way everyone is talking about 'overselling' is just stupid IMO.

In-ring ability is entirely predicated upon things like psychology, storytelling, workrate, selling, pacing, making people care about your character, etc...that's what it means to have good in-ring ability. There really is no other way to classify someone as being good in the ring, unless they have those qualities.

To me, having good in ring ability is being able to put on an interesting match and be skillful in terms of the way you move and piece everything together. Having those qualities makes things more interesting, but that in ring ability is what makes a match great.

Fans STILL buy more Cena merchandise than anyone else. Over the last couple of years, WWE merchandise has shot through the roof in terms of items bought. And, their beliefs are mistaken, and you and I both already touched on why. People try to use various reasons to describe why Cena is a bad wrestler. But, go back over that list we made before with RVD, Umaga, Lashley, HBK, Khali, Orton, etc...how many times does Cena have to bring the best out of an opponent before people are going to realize he's a damn good wrestler? To say that Cena is not a good wrestler, when ALL signs point to the contrary, is a mistaken belief. Opinions can be wrong, and some opinions can be more valid than others. All opinions are not equal.

Opinions cannot be wrong, unless they can be proven to be, and few things are. For e.g, in my opinion everyone is dead, that's obviously wrong and can be proven otherwise. But if I say In my opinion John Cena doesn't have enough in ring ability to keep me entertained, you cannot prove that wrong. I actually think it's disrespectful how you disregard other opinions as not equal to your own.

You can disagree all you want, but it doesn't make it any less true. With Cena as the headliner, WWE live event attendance increased both in 2005 and 2006 (haven't seen 2007 numbers yet). Raw ratings went up both in 2005 and 2006. Revenue generated into the company increased. Merchandise money increased. All with Cena on top.

Go back to the 80s, when the WWF would run three separate house shows all at one time. Hogan would lead the "A" show, I believe it was Savage who led the "B" show and many times it was tag teams like the Hart Foundation who would lead the "C" show. Guess which show did better? The "A" show, of course, even though top to bottom, it usually had a worse card than the "B" show in terms of names.

To say that the biggest draw in the company doesn't have an effect on attendance is naive.

But hardly any fans hated Hogan in that time. Look at how many fans don't like Cena nowadays. And don't try and say it's only a few people, because it isn't. It was even quoted on wrestlezone that Cena got huge boos from the audience on Raw, and there were chants of Cena sucks. Not good for thwe supposed top face in the company. The top draw is no longer the only reason for people to watch the WWE. When Orton was top draw, hardly anyone took note. Because now there is a lot more going on, and there is more quality in matches as there are more feuds.

 

[HBK-aholic]

But Shawn needs to put people over, and lets see if he does it on the biggest stage of em all

Shawn puts people over often. And he lost to Cena last year at Wm so it's not like he pouts until he gets his own way as a few people have tried to say.

What do you mean? Austin is retired, he has a bad neck(I think), The Rock is making movies, and Hogan is retired... Austin and the Rock are all times greats, who have done everything, they were the main focus during the attitude era, where those two have put on great and memorable segments, and matches.. Those tow are possibly the biggest draw the industry has ever seen. I dont care what Shawn does he could stay around till he is forty for all i care. Hogan retired because of age and the shae of his poor ligaments, Austin retired because of his neck and the Rock made a career choice. they were bigger superstars in a shorter period of time, so neither of them left for stupid reasons.

Shawn is forty..

Austin left because he didn't like the storylines.
The Rock left the fans for a business opportunity, but has seemingly forgotten all about us. Yet he'd still get a huge push if he returned
If Hogan was that injured he wouldn't have come back to go against Shawn.

Call and complain that your satellite dish wasnt working? or call about the cable company... I did this a few times

Good idea actually lol. But still true, we pay for the names on the card, not the quality of the matches.

ANd this will tell me how they revolutionized tag team wrestling?

It will SHOW you the difference they made.

But trust in ones worker is awesome..his word should mean something, and it isn;t like HBK ever refused to lose.

He was already leaving to join their arch rivals. He was already in a foul mood from the WWE and had already refused to drop the belt to Shawn once. Why should Vince take that risk?

When has HBK refused to lose? Regardless of how he feels, he'll lose if he has to. Don't use the time he was injured so couldn't drop it to Bret either, he was actually injured.

those TNA fans coul still be watching both, but that still helps the other promotion now doesnt it?

Every wrestler has that. It works for TNA as well. There will always be the people who admire a wrestler so much they will watch them wrestler wherever it is at. It means Vince has to keep his eye out for all the talent.

How, when he tries to spend time with some, and he constantly talks about his fans? I had the pleasure to meet him once at a GMC(Vitamin Store) in Downtown Pittsburgh, and he was an all around nice guy... and this was a day or two after the Benoit incident, and he still stayed around to socialize

If he cared about the fans he'd make more appearances even if they were just backstage, because no one expects him to wrestle anymore.

But his was in his fifties, with two bad knees, and a fake hip... I dont see many wrestlers performing day to day with a fake hip and two bad knees.

Ah it's the double standards again now, I see. Everyone keeps using Shawn's injuries such as a bad back and knee as reasons he can't perform like he did, yet he still works week and week out all year round. And he's in his forties. Hogan doesn't do that.

But it drew, and thats all VInce wanted. money money money

Duh.

 

[Slyfox696]

Yet I see no evidence to prove that. All the shows have still been full, all PPV's still sold out. Rayings still being high.

View live attendence ratings before Cena and after. View total merchandise sold before Cena and after. View PPV revenue before Cena and after.

I think the silly part is you actually undermining other people's opinions just because they aren't the same as yours actually.

Not undermining, just explaining why your opinion is mistaken.

Because Hogan made more money then left again. I'm starting to see the pattern in WWE actually, I mean, Cena just came back and won the Rumble.

What pattern? That the WWE puts a product out there that appeals to the greatest number of fans in order to make the most money?

Well, duh. That's what every wrestling company since the beginning of time has done. WWE does it, WCW did it, ROH does it, ECW did it, TNA does it, WCCW did it, AWA did it...etc.

At the end of the day, I understand Cena has had some good matches but he still bores me. His gimmick, his matches his championship reign. And he's supposed to be one of the biggest faces, yet got booed a hell of a lot at Raw and even the Rumble so I've been told. Right anyway...thread about Shawn. In that match, I aren't saying Shawn completely carried Cena in this match, because it was 60 minutes of genius and a great match. But I still believe after re-watching that match that Shawn is what made it turn great.

Well, you can believe that, I'm just telling you that if you compare match quality over the last several years, and put your obvious love of HBK aside, you'll understand why it is silly to say that either man made that match more than another.

And that's coming from one of the biggest Cena fans on the board. The only reason I give Cena more credit is for lighting a fire under HBK, not for the actual match.

Well when a wrestler posses both of these, such as someone like Shawn Michaels does, it truely makes them great at what they do. Some wrestlers are great at different things. With Cena and Hogan it's selling and working the audience. With Angle it's his athelticism. With very few such as Shawn it's both.

Wait...hold on...what can Michaels do that Cena cannot? Work the crowd? No, they both do that. Be good athletes? Cena is probably a better pure athlete than HBK. Selling? Well, HBK is probably a better seller than Cena, but not significantly. And when I say sell, I mean sell offense, not sell merchandise.

But the selling aspect isn't what makes them great wrestlers, you need to be able to wrestle to do that. Cena and Hogan obviously can because they're in a wrestling ring, but if they didn't have the ability to work the crowd, they'd be left with nothing, and if there were no audience there would be no good match.

Do you not understand that working the audience IS what makes a good match? That working the audience includes storytelling, and psychology, selling and proper transitions between spots? You keep talking about a magical concept of "wrestling" that you have never defined, and which does not exist.

To me, having good in ring ability is being able to put on an interesting match and be skillful in terms of the way you move and piece everything together. Having those qualities makes things more interesting, but that in ring ability is what makes a match great.

That broad definition does nothing to tell me why you HBK is good and Hogan not. Interesting match? Skillful in way you move and piece everything together? You're not saying anything. What would be a skillful way to move? What is a skillful way to piece everything together? And how do you figure that HBK is good at it but not Hogan or Cena?

Opinions cannot be wrong, unless they can be proven to be, and few things are. For e.g, in my opinion everyone is dead, that's obviously wrong and can be proven otherwise. But if I say In my opinion John Cena doesn't have enough in ring ability to keep me entertained, you cannot prove that wrong. I actually think it's disrespectful how you disregard other opinions as not equal to your own.

That's not what we're debating though. You said John Cena is not a good wrestler. That CAN be proven wrong, which I have done. If you want to say that I do not find him entertaining, fair enough. But to say that Cena is not entertaining, is false and the numbers prove it.

What I think is disrespectful is how people think that they can just saunter out any opinion, with no support and with no thought being put into it and actually believe it is equal to another opinion which is supported by facts, theories and numbers. Opinions are not equal, and opinions can be wrong. What you are talking about is personal taste.

 

[HBK-aholic]

View live attendence ratings before Cena and after. View total merchandise sold before Cena and after. View PPV revenue before Cena and after.

There is no significant increase or decrease. And the figures have been going up and down all year. It just goes to prove what I was saying; one man does not make the WWE.

Not undermining, just explaining why your opinion is mistaken.

The difference? My opinion cannot be wrong, it's my opinion. My opinion on the matter is that Shawn isn't passed his prime and that Cena isn't as entertaining as everyone puts off. It's also my opinion Cena cannot be as good at his job as everyone sayd because a super face is getting booed that much. You can't prove that wrong, just like I can't prove your opinion wrong, but I can argue to try and get you to see my point.

What pattern? That the WWE puts a product out there that appeals to the greatest number of fans in order to make the most money?

Well, duh. That's what every wrestling company since the beginning of time has done. WWE does it, WCW did it, ROH does it, ECW did it, TNA does it, WCCW did it, AWA did it...etc.

No that the WWE gives everything to the people who will make them money for that little thing and not entirely deserve it. Hogan's was just a random burst back into the spotlight for however long it was before leaving, Cena had just returned that instant.

Well, you can believe that, I'm just telling you that if you compare match quality over the last several years, and put your obvious love of HBK aside, you'll understand why it is silly to say that either man made that match more than another.

And that's coming from one of the biggest Cena fans on the board. The only reason I give Cena more credit is for lighting a fire under HBK, not for the actual match.

No I think after watching it, and seeing the parts that were amazing, and who integrated them shows me which man made that match even slightly more than the other.

Wait...hold on...what can Michaels do that Cena cannot? Work the crowd? No, they both do that. Be good athletes? Cena is probably a better pure athlete than HBK. Selling? Well, HBK is probably a better seller than Cena, but not significantly. And when I say sell, I mean sell offense, not sell merchandise.

Michaels can wrestle. Michaels move set is a lot more interesting. And I think most people on this board agree, Cena generally just does the same thing.

Do you not understand that working the audience IS what makes a good match? That working the audience includes storytelling, and psychology, selling and proper transitions between spots? You keep talking about a magical concept of "wrestling" that you have never defined, and which does not exist.

That broad definition does nothing to tell me why you HBK is good and Hogan not. Interesting match? Skillful in way you move and piece everything together? You're not saying anything. What would be a skillful way to move? What is a skillful way to piece everything together? And how do you figure that HBK is good at it but not Hogan or Cena?

Of course I have defined it. Watch the Angle V Michaels match at Wrestlemania 21. Should explain things. I agree with you when you say what makes a good wrestler, about psychology and working the audience etc. but I don't agree that's what makes a wrestler have great in-ring ability. They need to be more atheltic to do that, more skilllful in terms of proper wrestling, and be able to tell the story whilst doing that. The way a match is put together means a lot. Why do you think the wrestlers go through it so often? All wrestlers have the basic moves they can do, plus a few specialist ones. But you can just throw all those together to have a match. Or you can lead them on from one another, work out what would be best next. Other people that come to mind when I think about this are Rey Mysterio and Chris Benoit. They were both good at this.

That's not what we're debating though. You said John Cena is not a good wrestler. That CAN be proven wrong, which I have done. If you want to say that I do not find him entertaining, fair enough. But to say that Cena is not entertaining, is false and the numbers prove it.

That's because I don't think Cena is a good wrestler. And I've explained why. What you've tried to do is prove m wrong and change how I feel, but you haven't.

What I think is disrespectful is how people think that they can just saunter out any opinion, with no support and with no thought being put into it and actually believe it is equal to another opinion which is supported by facts, theories and numbers. Opinions are not equal, and opinions can be wrong. What you are talking about is personal taste.[/QUOTE]

At the top..

 

[Slyfox696]

There is no significant increase or decrease. And the figures have been going up and down all year. It just goes to prove what I was saying; one man does not make the WWE.

Umm...you're kidding right? There was a $20 million increase in 05 from 04 and another $20 million from 06 from 05. Revenue from PPV went up nearly 10% if I recall correctly. I don't know what you're looking at, but it's not the right stats.

No that the WWE gives everything to the people who will make them money for that little thing and not entirely deserve it. Hogan's was just a random burst back into the spotlight for however long it was before leaving, Cena had just returned that instant.

That's what I just said. The WWE puts out a product which appeals to the greatest number of people in order to make the most money possible. Which is the goal of EVERY promotion. I mean, why does ROH have a boring guy who wrestles the same exact style as Cena as their champion? Because he is going to make them the most money. It's not the WWE, its professional wrestling.

Professional wrestling is, and always has been, about making money. The only people who do not understand that are marks, who actually believe that there is some higher motive for producing professional wrestling. And yes, I say marks, because anyone who believes that have been worked by the business.

No I think after watching it, and seeing the parts that were amazing, and who integrated them shows me which man made that match even slightly more than the other.

Which parts were that? And how did they contribute to the overall story of the match?

Michaels can wrestle.

He can wrestle? What the hell is it that Cena is doing then? God, this might be the stupidest fucking answer any person could give ever. 'Michaels can wrestle'...well no fucking duh! He's in the WWE, obviously he can wrestle...just like Chavo, just like Cena, just like Umaga, just like Triple H, just like Rey, just like Edge, just like Batista etc...what does that mean? He can wrestle?

Michaels move set is a lot more interesting.

What does moveset have to do with putting on a good match?

And I think most people on this board agree, Cena generally just does the same thing.

The only people who would say that are the people who either a) don't watch his PPV matches or b) blindly hate Cena.

And, as far as doing the same thing, you just described Michaels. You know who Michaels is facing in his next singles bout? Neither do I. But I can already tell you what will happen. HBK will start on the offensive, make a mistake or get cheated, take a beating for a while, fight back, hit a flying forearm, nip up (completely no-selling opponents offense), hit a flying elbow drop, tune up the band for Sweet Chin Music...MISS SCM, and then they finish the match....every time.

Of course I have defined it. Watch the Angle V Michaels match at Wrestlemania 21. Should explain things.

So, an overrated spot-filled match with average at best transitions is considered a prime match all of a sudden?

I agree with you when you say what makes a good wrestler, about psychology and working the audience etc. but I don't agree that's what makes a wrestler have great in-ring ability.

Then you understand less about wrestling than I gave you credit for. Because that is exactly what makes a good match.

They need to be more atheltic to do that

So, I guess Dusty Rhodes, Stan Hansen, Bruiser Brody were all bad wrestlers, right?

more skilllful in terms of proper wrestling,

Proper wrestling? What in the hell is "proper wrestling"? I think what you are trying to get at is TECHNICAL wrestling. Well, I have news for you. Technical wrestling is only one style of wrestling and is not the end-all and be-all of professional wrestling. Like I said in that thread I started "You've been worked!". You have been brainwashed, or worked, by the professional wrestling business to think those who are skilled, are skilled because they technical wrestle. And that just is not the case.

and be able to tell the story whilst doing that.

Which comes from being able to work the crowd and use good psychology. Do you know what psychology is? Do you understand what the term "work the audience" means?

The way a match is put together means a lot. Why do you think the wrestlers go through it so often? All wrestlers have the basic moves they can do, plus a few specialist ones. But you can just throw all those together to have a match. Or you can lead them on from one another, work out what would be best next. Other people that come to mind when I think about this are Rey Mysterio and Chris Benoit. They were both good at this.

You're talking about transitions.

Basically, a match has a scripted beginning and end, and a few spots in the middle. Transitions are those moments in between spots where the wrestlers work towards the next spot. Usually these are either done on the fly or loosely talked about before the match. That's also where the term "spotfest" comes from, and is what the X-Division was about for so long. Watch a TNA X-Division match and watch how there is a big spot, nothing, and then another big spot. That's because transitions were so poor in the match.

Those who are good wrestlers understand how to transition properly from spot to spot. HOWEVER, using good transitions is a subplot to working the crowd and telling the story in the ring. So working the crowd and telling the story in the ring are the main ideas, and transitions are part of what makes that up.

That's because I don't think Cena is a good wrestler. And I've explained why. What you've tried to do is prove m wrong and change how I feel, but you haven't.

No, I'm trying to get you to understand that your understanding of wrestling is incomplete, and that wrestling has a much deeper and more abstract ideas and concepts then what you demonstrate knowing. You're taking what you see, and don't understand the deeper origins of your entertainment. And, until you do, you will always struggle to understand why guys like Hogan and Cena are so popular, because you will never understand that which makes them so good. The same thing that makes HBK and Hart and Benoit and Rey good, also make Savage, Warrior, Hogan and Cena good.

 

[BooCocky]

Shawn is forty..

My bad, meant ot say well into his forties

Austin left because he didn't like the storylines.

if i recall Austin retired because he had a serious neck injury. It occurred in his match with Owen Hart i believe. He didnt want to risk becoming paralyzed. How wrong of Austin

The Rock left the fans for a business opportunity, but has seemingly forgotten all about us.

Yeah because the Rock did not entertain fans for five years ... What else do you want from him?

Yet he'd still get a huge push if he returned

he isnt going to return so why complain?

If Hogan was that injured he wouldn't have come back to go against Shawn.

Money, Vince, and his fans...

Good idea actually lol. But still true, we pay for the names on the card, not the quality of the matches.

exactly, the card appeals so you buy it.. Gosh that McMahon is a good business man

It will SHOW you the difference they made.

How is this?

He was already leaving to join their arch rivals. He was already in a foul mood from the WWE and had already refused to drop the belt to Shawn once. Why should Vince take that risk?

because you have to trust your employees. Harts word should have been enough. Vince knew him long enough

When has HBK refused to lose? Regardless of how he feels, he'll lose if he has to. Don't use the time he was injured so couldn't drop it to Bret either, he was actually injured.

Wait, didnt Shawn say he was injured?

Every wrestler has that. It works for TNA as well. There will always be the people who admire a wrestler so much they will watch them wrestler wherever it is at. It means Vince has to keep his eye out for all the talent.

I know Kurt Angle doesnt get the highest rated segments, but he is still a draw, so he helps TNA out...What do you mean Mr McMahon has to watch his talent? Angle left because he was on the C show, and because of his addiction to pain pills

If he cared about the fans he'd make more appearances even if they were just backstage, because no one expects him to wrestle anymore.

Hogan has done enough in the last 20+ years. He doesnt need to make more appearances.

Ah it's the double standards again now, I see. Everyone keeps using Shawn's injuries such as a bad back and knee as reasons he can't perform like he did, yet he still works week and week out all year round. And he's in his forties. Hogan doesn't do that.

Hogan is 54 (I believe). He is retired, and he has done enough for the industry, he doesnt need to come back, and his body can not take it. Shawn doesn't work all house shows, which gives him time to heel up for the next week, or for his next appearances, so it is not like he works every single day

Duh.

Well you have a winner, because that is the point..

 

[HBK-aholic]

That's what I just said. The WWE puts out a product which appeals to the greatest number of people in order to make the most money possible. Which is the goal of EVERY promotion. I mean, why does ROH have a boring guy who wrestles the same exact style as Cena as their champion? Because he is going to make them the most money. It's not the WWE, its professional wrestling.

Professional wrestling is, and always has been, about making money. The only people who do not understand that are marks, who actually believe that there is some higher motive for producing professional wrestling. And yes, I say marks, because anyone who believes that have been worked by the business.

I know it's all professional wrestling, but we are talking about the WWE here. I know the main reason is to make money, and often people use the fact the 'E' in WWE stands for entertainment, therefore they are here to entertain us. True. But the 'W' also stands for wrestling, and I think some 'technical' wrestling should be involved as well as everything else that is based around psychology pretty much.

Which parts were that? And how did they contribute to the overall story of the match?

I was trying to find some of these on youtube, but surprisingly parts of that match don't seem to be up. Anyway, if you remember, the beginning of the match it was Cena on the offence, and Shawn only just magining to not get pnned. Cena did a great job here capitalizing. However at one point, when it looks like Cena is going to get the win, Shawn executes a neckbreaker. This was a great way to move things, and it was a great neckbreaker. Shortly after, I think something that transformed the match was the elbow Shawn gave Cena. It kind of made them on level pegging again, and it was quite a distance. I think this got the audience even more hyped up. Then. there was a potential Sweet Chin Music from Shawn. Cena basically ducked under this, and doing so gave people a shock, this was a great move by him, however then Shawn capitalized and went for the pin. This was my favourite part of the match because everyone seemed into it, and no one saw it coming.

He can wrestle? What the hell is it that Cena is doing then? God, this might be the stupidest fucking answer any person could give ever. 'Michaels can wrestle'...well no fucking duh! He's in the WWE, obviously he can wrestle...just like Chavo, just like Cena, just like Umaga, just like Triple H, just like Rey, just like Edge, just like Batista etc...what does that mean? He can wrestle?

Ohh this is how you get your point across? It's laughable really. "The stupidest fucking answer.."

When I said wrestle, I mean wrestle as in technically, and I'm using this as a reason he stands out a little more, because not all the wrestlers can do this as well.

What does moveset have to do with putting on a good match?

Moveset has a lot to do with a good match. They way these guys put the moves together means a lot in terms of how we view a match. The way they put across moves in terms of what's happening is also important. They say alot through the way they execute different moves, and manipulate the audience in doing so.

The only people who would say that are the people who either a) don't watch his PPV matches or b) blindly hate Cena.

And, as far as doing the same thing, you just described Michaels. You know who Michaels is facing in his next singles bout? Neither do I. But I can already tell you what will happen. HBK will start on the offensive, make a mistake or get cheated, take a beating for a while, fight back, hit a flying forearm, nip up (completely no-selling opponents offense), hit a flying elbow drop, tune up the band for Sweet Chin Music...MISS SCM, and then they finish the match....every time.

Wait, did someone who has a blind love for Cena just say that Shawn is predictable? I really have heard it all now. Shawn puts on interesting matches, week in and week out. It's Cena's feuds that are all the same. Someone will start a quest for the championship, they'll have a few matches not just singles, Cena will be attacked for a lot of the match. He'll pull out something 'good' at the end. He wins, keeps title. End of.

So, an overrated spot-filled match with average at best transitions is considered a prime match all of a sudden?

All of a sudden? I think a lot of people would agree this was a great match with great wrestlers. And I've always classed it as one of my favourites.

Then you understand less about wrestling than I gave you credit for. Because that is exactly what makes a good match.

You give credit to no one if they don't agree with everything you say Sly. Just because I enjoy added things about a match, and think there is more needed to make a match great.

So, I guess Dusty Rhodes, Stan Hansen, Bruiser Brody were all bad wrestlers, right?

Proper wrestling? What in the hell is "proper wrestling"? I think what you are trying to get at is TECHNICAL wrestling. Well, I have news for you. Technical wrestling is only one style of wrestling and is not the end-all and be-all of professional wrestling. Like I said in that thread I started "You've been worked!". You have been brainwashed, or worked, by the professional wrestling business to think those who are skilled, are skilled because they technical wrestle. And that just is not the case.

No. People don't need to know how to wrestle technically to be skillful, but I don't see why you class it as such a bad thing if they do.

I know a lot of other things are involved, but I don't see why you think those few things you've said are the ONLY things that can make a good wrestler.

Which comes from being able to work the crowd and use good psychology. Do you know what psychology is? Do you understand what the term "work the audience" means?

You're talking about transitions.

Basically, a match has a scripted beginning and end, and a few spots in the middle. Transitions are those moments in between spots where the wrestlers work towards the next spot. Usually these are either done on the fly or loosely talked about before the match. That's also where the term "spotfest" comes from, and is what the X-Division was about for so long. Watch a TNA X-Division match and watch how there is a big spot, nothing, and then another big spot. That's because transitions were so poor in the match.

Those who are good wrestlers understand how to transition properly from spot to spot. HOWEVER, using good transitions is a subplot to working the crowd and telling the story in the ring. So working the crowd and telling the story in the ring are the main ideas, and transitions are part of what makes that up.

Well that's what I mean, however haven't heard the 'technical' vocab for it. Some wrestlers are great at this, and can put the match together great, whereas other can't. The examples I gave, Benoit, Michaels and Mysterio I find to be really good at this, and this makes a match so much better rather than one big thing moving straight to another.

No, I'm trying to get you to understand that your understanding of wrestling is incomplete, and that wrestling has a much deeper and more abstract ideas and concepts then what you demonstrate knowing. You're taking what you see, and don't understand the deeper origins of your entertainment. And, until you do, you will always struggle to understand why guys like Hogan and Cena are so popular, because you will never understand that which makes them so good. The same thing that makes HBK and Hart and Benoit and Rey good, also make Savage, Warrior, Hogan and Cena good.

My understanding of wrestling isn't incomplete, I understand what you're saying, I understood it before you said it. But why does that mean I can't value added reasons, and extra qualities in the wrestlers which can only make them better? Why is it you follow exactly by the 'rules' of what wrestling is strictly about?

 

[HBK-aholic]

if i recall Austin retired because he had a serious neck injury. It occurred in his match with Owen Hart i believe. He didnt want to risk becoming paralyzed. How wrong of Austin

I thought it was his knees actually lol, but the only reason he retired wasn't because of this apparently. He didn't like a lot of the storylines going on with him.

Yeah because the Rock did not entertain fans for five years ... What else do you want from him?

Oh no, he did. I loved the Rock's promos. I aren't taking away from one thing he did, I was a fan of his. I just don't see why, he doesn't return, especially on the Raw anniversary to say something. And there's a reason he is always dubbed Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson.

Money, Vince, and his fans...

Probably in that order. With satisfying his ego thrown into the mix somewhere..

exactly, the card appeals so you buy it.. Gosh that McMahon is a good business man

You're losing track of what I'm saying. I know tht's the reason we buy it, but I mean the quality of matches could be rubbish, but it wouldn't matter because we'd already bought it.

How is this?

If you watch them you'll actually find out.

because you have to trust your employees. Harts word should have been enough. Vince knew him long enough

Exactly. What happened in Montreal was Vince's choice. Maybe Vince had known him that long his opinion was more of the worse?

Wait, didnt Shawn say he was injured?

Shawn was ACTUALLY injured.

I know Kurt Angle doesnt get the highest rated segments, but he is still a draw, so he helps TNA out...What do you mean Mr McMahon has to watch his talent? Angle left because he was on the C show, and because of his addiction to pain pills

I don't mean as a specific to Angle here. I mean Vince needs to try his damn hardest to make sure he doesn't lose out on any talent which could help another promotion.

Hogan is 54 (I believe). He is retired, and he has done enough for the industry, he doesnt need to come back, and his body can not take it. Shawn doesn't work all house shows, which gives him time to heel up for the next week, or for his next appearances, so it is not like he works every single day

I don't WANT him to come back. And in any case, then what would happen? Cena and Hogan..
But I was just using it as an example that it can't just be his injuries to blame. I aren't saying he needs to come back but I was pointing out I didn't see the need in that one random match with Shawn.