Shawn Michaels: Beyond His Prime?

[HBK-aholic]

The question is is HBK pased his prime?...The Answer is YES...He is passed his prime. His PRIMES was in 1995-97.

He isn't past his prime. What you mean is he's no longer being pushed by the WWE. But he can still do everything he could before. Remember the hour long match he had with Cena on a Raw last year? Cena's best match IMO.

And the only reason it was short was due to injuries and personal issues....I dont care how old he is, or how bad his knees/back are Michael Shawn Hickenbottom is the BEST IN RING PERFORMER to EVVVEERRR step in the squared circle....Hands down.

We all know Shawn should go down in history as being one of, if not the best wrestler in the history of WWE. Everything he's done, it's been for the WWE, or for the fans.

THE BEST MATCH Hulk Hogan has EVER had was against HBK....Reason is hbks ability, not hogans

Hogan I aren't a huge fan of, but even so he carried the company for a while back then. However that match was only made great because of Shawn. Hogan shouldn't have been wrestling then, just as he shouldn't now.

...Now im not here to argue who is better HBK/Hogan because in my opinion there is NO comparison to HBK, none- the man literally kept the WWF from going under and is the reason we watch the WWE today and NOT WCW....but anyways.

Shawn or Hogan?

He may be "out of his prime" but in no way falls short of still being the showstopper. The reason he may look old and tired is because that is the role being pushed on him at this moment.

Lol, he looks older because he is getting older. He's in his forties, and yet he can still wrestler and entertain like he did when he was 20.

HBK has ALWAYS been able to express his "pain" while in the ring like no other...But when we won the matches that wasnt SO noticeable. But when hes set to lose and you see him grimmace like that you feel hes washed???

Yeah Shawn can pull off anything, he can make you beleve anything and can create heat *Cough Canada cough* more than anyone. Shawn is brilliant at making the audience believe what he wants them to, whether it's believeing in pain, or a storyline.

Crazyyyyy.....I understand how the WWE needs to make tomorrows superstars by having them beat todays legends....Some wrestlers have to big an ego to partake, but HBK is ALLLLL BUSINESS, always has and always will be. He loves the game, he does it for US....HBK will always be over with the crowd and at any moment not only be the champion again, but be able to put on a show just as he used to in the late 90's....

I think your post is a little contradictory, because you said his prime was 95-97, yet now you're saying he can still put on a show like he did then, therefore he is still in his prime. But I agree with you, he can still put on shows like he always has been able to - and that's better than almost everyone in the ring today.

The fans care for Shawn because as you said, he is all business. It's obvious from the passion in him, and from reading his autobiography, that the most important thing to him has always been the business and the fans.

 

[Slyfox696]

THE BEST MATCH Hulk Hogan has EVER had was against HBK....Reason is hbks ability, not hogans

Hahaha...you're kidding right? That wasn't even CLOSE to the best match either Hogan or Shawn Michaels have ever had. And, you are right. That is due to HBK...as in him being an unprofessional crybaby who pouted because he didn't get his way.

He isn't past his prime. What you mean is he's no longer being pushed by the WWE. But he can still do everything he could before.

No, he can do some things BETTER than he could before, but there are a lot of things he cannot do as well.

Remember the hour long match he had with Cena on a Raw last year? Cena's best match IMO.

That match was more to Cena's greatness than HBK's.

We all know Shawn should go down in history as being one of, if not the best wrestler in the history of WWE. Everything he's done, it's been for the WWE, or for the fans.

Or to satisfy his admittedly incredibly large ego...

Hogan I aren't a huge fan of, but even so he carried the company for a while back then. However that match was only made great because of Shawn. Hogan shouldn't have been wrestling then, just as he shouldn't now.

How do you figure Shawn made that match great? With his ridiculous overselling? His lackluster offense? His obvious desire to be any place other than that ring?

No, Hogan made that match watchable, not Shawn.

Shawn or Hogan?

Both.

 

[HBK-aholic]

First off, this is not even an opinion. Shawn Michaels IS passed his prime. Ask him, ask Vince, ask HHH. Ask whoever and they will tell you and he'll openly admit it.

It is not even an opinion? I'll think you'll find it is an opinion, even if we asked him, HHH or Vince, it would be their opinion that Shawn was/wasn't passed his prime. It isn't a fact, it can't be proven either way. And furthermore, people have different opinions on when the prime of a wrestlers career is. Vince may class the prime of a wrestlers career as when he is Champion, therefore making the most amount of money possible for the company. Whereas prime is classed to many as when the wrestler is at the height of his abilities.

He is still a better wrestler than most and still able to perform at a ridiculously high level.

Fact. He can do more than most of the younger talent coming through and has more energy. Something some people will deny, or not expect.

When we was in his "prime" he was at the peak of his wrestling abilities and could pretty much do anything at any time. It's not him, it's simply his age and wear on his body.

He can still do pretty much everything he could do back then. Name one thing he can't. He can still perform all his moves to the best standard, can compete fully in all his match ups, and keep the audience hooked on everything he does. His physical fitness may not be as healthy as it was back then, in terms of his knees and back, but he can still do everything.

But you can't really have an opinion on this. He simply is not in his prime.

Who are you to tell me I can't have an opinion, on anything? Isn't you saying 'He is simply not in his prime'? Well if I can't have my opinion, you can't have yours. Or do you just not like the people who oppose your view? The whole point of these forums is to discuss and debate wrestling. Therefore using the words 'You can't really have an opinion on this' just come across as immature, when the rest of your post suggested otherwise.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Hahaha...you're kidding right? That wasn't even CLOSE to the best match either Hogan or Shawn Michaels have ever had.

It wasn't Shawn Michaels best match, Shawn has had many better

And, you are right. That is due to HBK...as in him being an unprofessional crybaby who pouted because he didn't get his way.

I'm going to need you to explain this.

No, he can do some things BETTER than he could before, but there are a lot of things he cannot do as well.

I'm thinking back to matches with Shawn in the last couple of years, and I see nothing to suggest he can't do anything he did before.

That match was more to Cena's greatness than HBK's.

Did you watch the same match as me? Shawn took this match and made it great. He took an 'average' wrestler, and made him wrestle better than he ever has.

Or to satisfy his admittedly incredibly large ego...

Have you read Heartbreak and Triumph at all? Shawn doesn't have a 'huge ego', except for when his gimmick calls for that, such as in DX. It shows how great he is to have you believe him though.

How do you figure Shawn made that match great? With his ridiculous overselling? His lackluster offense? His obvious desire to be any place other than that ring?

No, Hogan made that match watchable, not Shawn.

Shawn has never wanted to b anywhere other than in a wrestling ring. It's his passion, and I've never seen a match of his where that doesn't shine through every little bit.
By the time of this match, everyone had watched Hogans reality show where he'd complained about his bad back and how everyone had seen how his life really was. If this match was against anyone other than Shawn, it would have stopped me watching it.

 

[noone911]

Listen HBK-aholic -- it's clear that Shawn Michaels is your favorite wrestler. We can all see that. You need to relax a little. I think pretty much everyone here is agreeing that Michaels is great and can still perform at a level higher than others. Sure you can have an opinion, it's just that your opinion here is incorrect. Debate it all you like but Shawn is NOT in his prime. As someone else said, around 95-97 was his prime. He has had a serious back injury and often has problems with his knees. Someone in their prime would not have all these injuries. They take their toll after time. Sure he can do lots of the same things he did in the past but he's going to be soaking in a tub of ice afterward and take days to recuperate. That's how you know you're not in your prime anymore.

 

[Slyfox696]

It wasn't Shawn Michaels best match, Shawn has had many better

I agree. And to suggest it was Hogan's best match is laughable, at best.

I'm going to need you to explain this.

HBK pouted the entire match, because basically, he got out-politicked. Hogan was going over so HBK acted completely unprofessional. He ridiculously oversold moves (even for a heel HBK), his offense was slow and boring (and not in a heel way), he was completely lethargic the whole match when he wasn't trying to show Hogan up, and he was just generally apathetic about the whole match.

Compare that match to the one he had against Angle of the same year. Notice the difference in demeanors.

I'm thinking back to matches with Shawn in the last couple of years, and I see nothing to suggest he can't do anything he did before.

His attitude is completely different. He's no longer a "Fuck you, I'm going to show you up", it's now a "Fuck you, I don't care anymore.". HBK doesn't put in half the energy now that he did ten years ago, and it's telling in his matches.

Did you watch the same match as me? Shawn took this match and made it great. He took an 'average' wrestler, and made him wrestle better than he ever has.

This is plain goofy, on so many levels. 1. Cena is anything but an average worker. He's one of the best in the world right now. That's why he had no less than THREE, count'em THREE, Match of the Year contenders in 2007 (Umaga at RR, HBK at Raw, and Lashley at GAB). John Cena has done nothing but put on highly entertaining matches at each and every PPV he defends his title at, and has done so since he won the belt at WM21. To suggest that Cena is an "average" wrestler is terribly ignorant.

Now, let's compare Cena's work over the last three years to HBK's work. Outside of his match with Angle, his match with Benjamin on Raw...what has HBK done in the last three years that qualifies him as being anything other than a "solid" wrestler? What memorable matches has he had? The best match he's had in the last three years was his match with Cena on Raw. Cena on the other hand, has been putting out great matches every PPV since 2005. And, that's not just me talking, but Chris Jericho as well. See my signature for proof.

So, now that we have credibility out of the way, let's talk about the match. In what way did HBK make that match great? Or, let's put it like this. How did HBK carry Cena to a good match? Just like their Wrestlemania encounter, it was both men working together to put on a good show. Cena didn't carry HBK, and HBK didn't carry Cena. Both men played their part beautifully, and the match was fantastic. That had no more to do with HBK than it did with Cena. But, finally, consider this. Cena's been putting on great matches since 2005. It took a match with John Cena to light a spark under HBK's ass and to get him to work 100%.

So, yes, I watched the exact same match as you did. And, with HBK looking like he gave a damn for only the third time in 3 years, I would say the greatness of the match has more to do with Cena than HBK.

Have you read Heartbreak and Triumph at all?

Twice. Watched the DVD too. *shrugs*

Shawn doesn't have a 'huge ego', except for when his gimmick calls for that, such as in DX. It shows how great he is to have you believe him though.

Sure he did. How can you say otherwise? With his constant refusals to job, his "better than thou" attitude, his desire to always show up his fellow workers....what else would you call that but a huge ego? And, those are the things that HBK himself admit to.

Shawn has never wanted to b anywhere other than in a wrestling ring. It's his passion, and I've never seen a match of his where that doesn't shine through every little bit.
By the time of this match, everyone had watched Hogans reality show where he'd complained about his bad back and how everyone had seen how his life really was. If this match was against anyone other than Shawn, it would have stopped me watching it.

Strange, because if Shawn had wrestled anyone other than Hogan, it probably would have stopped 20% of the PPV buyers for Summerslam from watching it.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Listen HBK-aholic -- it's clear that Shawn Michaels is your favorite wrestler. We can all see that. You need to relax a little. I think pretty much everyone here is agreeing that Michaels is great and can still perform at a level higher than others. Sure you can have an opinion, it's just that your opinion here is incorrect. Debate it all you like but Shawn is NOT in his prime. As someone else said, around 95-97 was his prime. He has had a serious back injury and often has problems with his knees. Someone in their prime would not have all these injuries. They take their toll after time. Sure he can do lots of the same things he did in the past but he's going to be soaking in a tub of ice afterward and take days to recuperate. That's how you know you're not in your prime anymore.

An opinion on something that can't be proven either way cannot be wrong. And as much as I don't agree with you, I aren't saying your opinion is wrong, because it just that - your opinion.

What do you consider as his prime though? Because to me as long as someone can still perform to the best of his abilities in the ring, he's in his prime. Shawn hasn't lost doing that, and furthermore now puts over talent every week. He doesn't care about losing as long as he can still put on the best show.

He probably does spend a while in ice afterwards, but name one wrestler who doesn't? Almost every wrestler will do this at some point or another.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I agree. And to suggest it was Hogan's best match is laughable, at best.

It was one of Hogans better matches. I always used to think Hogan often needed a good opponent to be able to have a good match. Sometimes that wasn't the case, but at times it was.

HBK pouted the entire match, because basically, he got out-politicked. Hogan was going over so HBK acted completely unprofessional. He ridiculously oversold moves (even for a heel HBK), his offense was slow and boring (and not in a heel way), he was completely lethargic the whole match when he wasn't trying to show Hogan up, and he was just generally apathetic about the whole match.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Shawn has always done what's best for the company, whether he liked it or not, and he's always done it well. He probably did find it a little unfair that Hogan won, Hogan has pretty much finished in the wrestling ring, and there was nothing for him to gain. Whereas Shawn had everything to gain. But even so, Shawn at the time was heel I believe, therefore anything he did like that, was him doing his job. However I noticed very little of what you're describing.

Compare that match to the one he had against Angle of the same year. Notice the difference in demeanors.

I have to agree here. Their match at Wrestlemania 21, was the best match in the history of the WWE in my opinion. Both those guys are amazing wrestlers, and both will go down for the best wrestler in history. I've always thought Kurt Angle was a lot better in TNA. He was really good in WWE I aren't saying he wasn't, but he found his feet in TNA, and is amazing. However I think this match was the first hint of a great Angle. Both of them went in and gave it their all, and with that much talent between the two it was amazing.

His attitude is completely different. He's no longer a "Fuck you, I'm going to show you up", it's now a "Fuck you, I don't care anymore.". HBK doesn't put in half the energy now that he did ten years ago, and it's telling in his matches.

This isn't true. Shawn still puts all his energy, and all his passion into the wrestling ring, no matter what the cause is. Never will I say HBK has a 'I don't care' attitude, because I know he always will. At the moment he's putting new talent over, a job most wouldn't put effort into, but he outs all his energy into knowing he and the youngster will look great from what he's doing.

This is plain goofy, on so many levels. 1. Cena is anything but an average worker. He's one of the best in the world right now. That's why he had no less than THREE, count'em THREE, Match of the Year contenders in 2007 (Umaga at RR, HBK at Raw, and Lashley at GAB). John Cena has done nothing but put on highly entertaining matches at each and every PPV he defends his title at, and has done so since he won the belt at WM21. To suggest that Cena is an "average" wrestler is terribly ignorant.

Cena is SEEN as one of the best in the world right now because of how much he is pushed, and how much people see him. The Umaga and HBK matches, I think were made good because of Umaga and Shawn. Both we're kept going by these performers, with Cena left to pick up the glory. The Lashely match I can't even recall, so I doubt it was that good.
Highly entertaining? I could have stood at the side of the match and told you what Cena was going to do next. To me he just isn't entertaining. I can see why some people do, I aren't going to see he's awful, but to me he isn't anything special, and the only thing that separates him from the rest is the push he recieved.

Now, let's compare Cena's work over the last three years to HBK's work. Outside of his match with Angle, his match with Benjamin on Raw...what has HBK done in the last three years that qualifies him as being anything other than a "solid" wrestler? What memorable matches has he had? The best match he's had in the last three years was his match with Cena on Raw. Cena on the other hand, has been putting out great matches every PPV since 2005. And, that's not just me talking, but Chris Jericho as well. See my signature for proof.

You seem to enjoy throwing the word great around to describe pretty much all of Cena's matches. Cena hasn't had very many great matches. He's had good yes. But he had one great match a couple of years ago, and found a formula that worked. However he ran that down into the ground with the ammount of times he reused it after that.

Shawn, every match he has been is has been GOOD. No one has a great match every single time they wrestle, but Shawn has had so many. His match with Cena is up there with them. Remember the Royal Rumble last year between him and Undertaker? Both has battled throughout, and then put on a great ending. The two could have a great feud and singles matches.

So, now that we have credibility out of the way, let's talk about the match. In what way did HBK make that match great? Or, let's put it like this. How did HBK carry Cena to a good match? Just like their Wrestlemania encounter, it was both men working together to put on a good show. Cena didn't carry HBK, and HBK didn't carry Cena. Both men played their part beautifully, and the match was fantastic. That had no more to do with HBK than it did with Cena. But, finally, consider this. Cena's been putting on great matches since 2005. It took a match with John Cena to light a spark under HBK's ass and to get him to work 100%.

In saying this are you being serious? Shawn puts everything into every match he's in, full stop. You honestly think it took John Cena to make Shawn give 100%? No way. Shawn had been givin his all in every match he had before that as well.

The match was kept good by both, but it was made great by Shawn. The way he worked that night, was different to how he had done in past months, maybe that's why you think it took this match with Cena for Shawn to give 100%. But how he worked just left people to stop and stare at the pure talent going on in the ring that night.

So, yes, I watched the exact same match as you did. And, with HBK looking like he gave a damn for only the third time in 3 years, I would say the greatness of the match has more to do with Cena than HBK.

Cena had to do so much more than he usually does to keep up. So IMO, it was Shawn that made Cena give 100%, not vice versa.

Twice. Watched the DVD too. *shrugs*

Sure he did. How can you say otherwise? With his constant refusals to job, his "better than thou" attitude, his desire to always show up his fellow workers....what else would you call that but a huge ego? And, those are the things that HBK himself admit to.

Shawns gimmick often calls for him to act that way, especiallly when he's heel, and he making you believe this shows what a good worker he is. At the end of the day Shawn would do anything for the fans or for Vince MsMahon if it needed doing. He might not be too happy about it but he'll still do it.

Strange, because if Shawn had wrestled anyone other than Hogan, it probably would have stopped 20% of the PPV buyers for Summerslam from watching it.

People bought that match because Hogan is legendary, the return of Hogan was a huge thing, but at the end of the day, the match itself wasn't that good. I think many were let down with his performance.

 

[nomonksinmyband]

Wow, this arguement is always fun. Some people don't live Shawn cause he doesn't sell the back after he makes the big babyface comeback when he nips up but regardless he is without a doubt in the Top 3 PERFORMERS in the company every year. There isn't a great deal of superstars in the company who can do everything to the level that Shawn does. He got great mic work and Great In-ring skills and can draw heat as a heel or a face.

And to answer the original question, no he isn't past his prime is still off it. When he can still go out and have the good matches that he does he isn't past his prime. When he keeps having bad match after bad match then we can have that discussion

 

[HBKgOttaKnowNow24]

HBK-aholic....My apologies if i wasnt clear enough in the original post. What i was trying to relay is that ......he is NOT in his prime...AND only because the word "PRIME" in the dictionary means-The period or phase of ideal or peak condition....Well we all know his condition isnt "ideal" The man has had several injuries, causing him to periodically leave the ring. Brett Favre is still playing football at a PHENOMANAL LEVEL, but you cant say that he is in his prime??? right?? FAvre is STILL the man, still breaking records and is STILL one of the BEST if not THE BEST quarteback EVER....Same goes for the Heart Break Kid

 

[hatehabsforever]

Of course Shawn Michaels is past his prime, it would be ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

He's 40+ years old and been in the business for 20+ years. He's got a chronic bad back that has forced him to miss a lot of time. He's got bad knees. He's losing his hair. How could anyone suggest he is still in his "prime?"

Having said all of this, do I think he's a washed-up has-been? No. Do I think he should retire? No. Do I think his in-ring or mic work has been poor? No. Should he continue to play a prominent role on WWE programming. Absolutely yes. But come on, all athletes pass their prime at some point, and he has clearly passed his. It's a credit to him that he continues to be as effective and important as he has been despite being past his prime.

 

[Davi323]

is HBK still in peak physical condition? No. Do his matches guarantee my butt is glued down to the couch while he is on? HELL YEAH. HBK, in his 40s, suffering from back and knee problems, is still outperforming a lot of 20 somethings on the roster. His matches with Kennedy lately have been the best wrestling on RAW. HBK is still worth every penny Vince pays him.

 

[Slyfox696]

It was one of Hogans better matches. I always used to think Hogan often needed a good opponent to be able to have a good match. Sometimes that wasn't the case, but at times it was.

You're kidding right? What made it one of Hogan's better matches? Other than the fact that HBK was in it?

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Shawn has always done what's best for the company, whether he liked it or not,

Yes, because holding a title 11 times and only cleaning dropping 4 of them is what is best for the company.

He probably did find it a little unfair that Hogan won, Hogan has pretty much finished in the wrestling ring, and there was nothing for him to gain. Whereas Shawn had everything to gain.

Like what? What did HBK have to gain? What did he have to lose? This is such a silly statement.

But even so, Shawn at the time was heel I believe, therefore anything he did like that, was him doing his job. However I noticed very little of what you're describing.

No, it's not his job to half-ass his performance in the ring because he's throwing a temper tantrum. And if you don't notice it, then you aren't watching it.

I have to agree here. Their match at Wrestlemania 21, was the best match in the history of the WWE in my opinion.

Not even in the Top 5 matches at Wrestlemania. (Savage/Steamboat, Hogan/Warrior, Warrior/Savage, Bret/Owen, HBK/Razor, Hart/Austin, Rock/Austin are all easily superior).

This isn't true. Shawn still puts all his energy, and all his passion into the wrestling ring, no matter what the cause is. Never will I say HBK has a 'I don't care' attitude, because I know he always will. At the moment he's putting new talent over, a job most wouldn't put effort into, but he outs all his energy into knowing he and the youngster will look great from what he's doing.

Outside of a couple matches/programs here and there, HBK is giving anything but his 100% effort. Go back and watch matches from 94-97...that's when he was giving 100%.

Cena is SEEN as one of the best in the world right now because of how much he is pushed, and how much people see him.

No, he IS one of the best in the world because of how good of wrestler he is.

The Umaga and HBK matches, I think were made good because of Umaga and Shawn.

And the Jericho matches were because of Jericho, and the Angle matches because of Angle, and the HHH match because of HHH, and the RVD match because of RVD, and the Edge matches because of Edge, and the Lashley match becaues of Lashley and the Orton match because of Orton...right?

It's always the because of the OTHER guy wrestling Cena. It's never to Cena's credit, right?

How silly does that sound to you? Because it sounds absolutely ridiculous to me.

The Lashely match I can't even recall, so I doubt it was that good.

Good logic....

Highly entertaining? I could have stood at the side of the match and told you what Cena was going to do next. To me he just isn't entertaining. I can see why some people do, I aren't going to see he's awful, but to me he isn't anything special, and the only thing that separates him from the rest is the push he recieved.

Well, Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, Chris Jericho, and Vince McMahon have all given Cena high praise and endorsement...but, what do they know about wrestling, right?

In saying this are you being serious? Shawn puts everything into every match he's in, full stop. You honestly think it took John Cena to make Shawn give 100%? No way. Shawn had been givin his all in every match he had before that as well.

Please. Shawn hasn't given 100% in every match since the mid-90s. And yes, I think wrestling Cena forced HBK to work harder than he usually does, because Cena is a great wrestler, in great shape, always delivers in big matches, and always has a great crowd reaction. Very few guys in the world can make the same claim.

The match was kept good by both, but it was made great by Shawn. The way he worked that night, was different to how he had done in past months, maybe that's why you think it took this match with Cena for Shawn to give 100%. But how he worked just left people to stop and stare at the pure talent going on in the ring that night.

Have you even seen the match? Do you understand the story that was going on in the match? Do you understand the incredibly psychology that was on display, and the phenomenal working of the crowd that occurred? Could you describe it for me?

Cena had to do so much more than he usually does to keep up. So IMO, it was Shawn that made Cena give 100%, not vice versa.

Watch their Wrestlemania match, and then watch the match from Raw again. Try and note the deeper meanings behind the match, and understand why everything happened the way it did. Then maybe you will understand what I mean.

Shawns gimmick often calls for him to act that way, especiallly when he's heel, and he making you believe this shows what a good worker he is. At the end of the day Shawn would do anything for the fans or for Vince MsMahon if it needed doing. He might not be too happy about it but he'll still do it.

I'm not talking about his on-screen persona, but his real life persona. You have read Heartbreak and Triumph right? Where he talks about being difficult, and how he talks about how he would go out every night to try and put on the best match every night, just to spite all the people who said he didn't belong?

That's called having an ego.

People bought that match because Hogan is legendary, the return of Hogan was a huge thing, but at the end of the day, the match itself wasn't that good. I think many were let down with his performance.

This is statement is just terribly confusing.

 

[HBK-aholic]

You're kidding right? What made it one of Hogan's better matches? Other than the fact that HBK was in it?

HBK made Hogan work. He made him change his style, and made him better at what he was doing.

Yes, because holding a title 11 times and only cleaning dropping 4 of them is what is best for the company.

And name the time's hes been asked to drop the belt by Vince and hasn't?

Like what? What did HBK have to gain? What did he have to lose? This is such a silly statement.

Hogan basically came to wrestle that one match before disapperaing again. Shawn is still here now. What did Hogan gain from that? He's sat at home again now.

No, it's not his job to half-ass his performance in the ring because he's throwing a temper tantrum. And if you don't notice it, then you aren't watching it.

Shawn has never 'half - assed' in the ring. He puts his all into everything. No matter what you think of this match, I firmly believe Shawn has never had a bad match.

Not even in the Top 5 matches at Wrestlemania. (Savage/Steamboat, Hogan/Warrior, Warrior/Savage, Bret/Owen, HBK/Razor, Hart/Austin, Rock/Austin are all easily superior).

When I said WWE, I meant the WWE era (after 2000 I believe), not beforehand. Sorry about that. The Bret/Owen match was amazing.

Outside of a couple matches/programs here and there, HBK is giving anything but his 100% effort. Go back and watch matches from 94-97...that's when he was giving 100%.

Nah sorry again I have to disagree, I think Shawn gives everything he;s got to his matches and promos.

No, he IS one of the best in the world because of how good of wrestler he is.

And the Jericho matches were because of Jericho, and the Angle matches because of Angle, and the HHH match because of HHH, and the RVD match because of RVD, and the Edge matches because of Edge, and the Lashley match becaues of Lashley and the Orton match because of Orton...right?

It's always the because of the OTHER guy wrestling Cena. It's never to Cena's credit, right?

How silly does that sound to you? Because it sounds absolutely ridiculous to me.

Not always. But then again I don't classify most of the matches you just named as good anyway. Generally when Cena has a good match, it may not be all about the opponent, but Cena gets made to look good by being made to come out of his comfort zone a little, which is what some wrestlers do to him.

Good logic....

Well if a match was that good it would have been memorable to me IMO.

Well, Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, Chris Jericho, and Vince McMahon have all given Cena high praise and endorsement...but, what do they know about wrestling, right?

Jericho and McMahon, yeah they may have praised him. I've said before I understand why people do like him. He puts a great deal into the company and makes a lot of money for it. But that's not all I look for when it comes to wrestling. However I seem to be in a minority of that recently.

Please. Shawn hasn't given 100% in every match since the mid-90s. And yes, I think wrestling Cena forced HBK to work harder than he usually does, because Cena is a great wrestler, in great shape, always delivers in big matches, and always has a great crowd reaction. Very few guys in the world can make the same claim.

Shawn Michaels.

Have you even seen the match? Do you understand the story that was going on in the match? Do you understand the incredibly psychology that was on display, and the phenomenal working of the crowd that occurred? Could you describe it for me?

Watch their Wrestlemania match, and then watch the match from Raw again. Try and note the deeper meanings behind the match, and understand why everything happened the way it did. Then maybe you will understand what I mean.

I understand what you mean now. I understand why you think it. I just don't agree with it. I aren't denying Cena isn't great at what his job id, which is to make the WWE money. There are some people who are entertainers like Cena, other's who come in as athletic wrestlers, and a fair few who are both. So yeah Cena is great at making money, and tbh I haven't seen anyone as good as him at that for a while. But I enjoy watching the wrestling going on, and Cena's type of wrestling doesn't appeal to me.

I'm not talking about his on-screen persona, but his real life persona. You have read Heartbreak and Triumph right? Where he talks about being difficult, and how he talks about how he would go out every night to try and put on the best match every night, just to spite all the people who said he didn't belong?

That's called having an ego.

Heartbreak and Triumph is practically my bible lol. Yeah he did that I know, But that was before. Before he knew how to act, how to show respect. The back injusy did a lot for his real life. Finding Rebecca and then Christ. He went and apologised to every person he's been rude to and not respected when he realised. So yeah he did have a huge ego, especially when at first he hadn't earned the right to have an ego at all. But he doesn't anymore.

This is statement is just terribly confusing.

I agree with you when you say less people would have bought that PPV if Shawn was facing anyone other than Hogan. But that was due to the fact Hogan hadn't had a proper wrestling match in ages, and everyone expected big things from it. And Hogan also has a huge fan base, possibly the biggest I have ever seen in WWE.

 

[Slyfox696]

HBK made Hogan work. He made him change his style, and made him better at what he was doing.

HAHAHAHA.

The fact you are trying to tell me that HBK made Hogan good is ridiculous.

And name the time's hes been asked to drop the belt by Vince and hasn't?

How about Wrestlemania 13 for starters?

Hogan basically came to wrestle that one match before disapperaing again. Shawn is still here now. What did Hogan gain from that? He's sat at home again now.

What would HBK have gained from that? Would he be a bigger legend now? Is he any less of a legend now? The answer, in both cases, is no.

So, who cares who went over?

Oh, and ask Mick Foley what happens when one comes back to continuously put guys over.

Shawn has never 'half - assed' in the ring. He puts his all into everything. No matter what you think of this match, I firmly believe Shawn has never had a bad match.

Then this is just turning a blind eye to the truth. Sting is my favorite wrestler, and I know he's had bad matches. So has Hogan, Hart, Cena, and every other wrestler. It happens. For you to claim that Shawn has never had a bad match is refusing to admit reality, and shows just how unreliable your opinion on him really is.

Not always. But then again I don't classify most of the matches you just named as good anyway. Generally when Cena has a good match, it may not be all about the opponent, but Cena gets made to look good by being made to come out of his comfort zone a little, which is what some wrestlers do to him.

Again, you're turning a blind eye to reality, simply to justify your position.

How does Cena come "out of his comfort zone" in good matches? What's the difference between a "normal" Cena PPV match, and a special Cena PPV match? For that matter, could you describe to me what a "normal" Cena PPV match is, and point me to three example of it?

Well if a match was that good it would have been memorable to me IMO.

Or, maybe you have never seen it? Yeah, I'm going with that.

Jericho and McMahon, yeah they may have praised him. I've said before I understand why people do like him. He puts a great deal into the company and makes a lot of money for it. But that's not all I look for when it comes to wrestling. However I seem to be in a minority of that recently.

When you understand what professional wrestling is all about, you'll realize the ridiculousness of that statement.

Shawn Michaels.

You just put Cena in the same category as Shawn Michaels who you feel is the greatest wrestler ever. So, are you admitting Cena is very good?

I understand what you mean now. I understand why you think it. I just don't agree with it. I aren't denying Cena isn't great at what his job id, which is to make the WWE money. There are some people who are entertainers like Cena, other's who come in as athletic wrestlers, and a fair few who are both. So yeah Cena is great at making money, and tbh I haven't seen anyone as good as him at that for a while.

And, why do you think he's so good at making money? I mean, if he wasn't a good wrestler, would people pay to see him? Of course not. People do it because they know he will always give them a good show.

Thus, proving that Cena is one of the best wrestlers in the world, and disproving your basis for saying that HBK carried Cena on Raw.

Heartbreak and Triumph is practically my bible lol. Yeah he did that I know, But that was before.

That is exactly what I said from the beginning. Geez...

We all know Shawn should go down in history as being one of, if not the best wrestler in the history of WWE. Everything he's done, it's been for the WWE, or for the fans.

Or to satisfy his admittedly incredibly large ego...

I agree with you when you say less people would have bought that PPV if Shawn was facing anyone other than Hogan. But that was due to the fact Hogan hadn't had a proper wrestling match in ages, and everyone expected big things from it. And Hogan also has a huge fan base, possibly the biggest I have ever seen in WWE.

And why does Hogan have such a large fanbase? Because the man can still outwork and outperform 95% of the current wrestlers in the country.

And to claim that HBK carried Hogan to his best match ever is so ridiculous it doesn't even rank on a logical scale.

 

[Capt. Charisma]

Hogan was the biggest thing say 20 years ago, now he's not. You can mention his name and many people cheer or have amazing things to say about his past. You ask most people now and they think he should stay gone.

Honestly if I was a big named wrestler, I know I wouldn't want to lose my spot to a 50 year old has been, who is so greedy he wants more money than anyone for the contract and has to be the center of attention. The fact is he's living off past glory, and way past his prime.

As a wrestler even 20 years ago he was overated. Hogan never pulled off a truely great match during his long career, and instead of developing his in-ring work as he got older, he kept the same old routine. So what if he gets a good pop when he comes out?! the reason because of this is his past sucesss.

If anything about Hogan is underated its his mic-work. That is one of the major factors in him been so popular, people back then had not really experianced anyone like HOgan on the mic, and Hogan was given so much air time to put himself over that he became so popular with it. Hulk Hogan should have retired 20 years ago, fact.

As for HBK, well he has reached the end of career in my opinion. He has been a cosistant, if not a outstanding main event performer since 1995/6, now its time for him to hang up his boots. I dont have a problem with him having a out of ring role, but as a wrestler he is finished. YOu can already see the early signs with his back, and knees. If he wants go down in history as a legend then he needs to retire because the quality of his in-ring work will gradually begin to drop. While it is understandable that the WWE want him because he gets a good pop, what WWE should really be focused on is bringing in the new generation of superstars, and marketing them so that they can get pops like HBK in the future.

 

[HBK-aholic]

HAHAHAHA.

The fact you are trying to tell me that HBK made Hogan good is ridiculous.

Ya well to the majortiy of fans Hogan is the God of wrestling. I'm not saying Shawn made him look good, because he wouldn't have been wrestling for so long if he couldn't do that himself. But PERSONALLY I've never been a big Hogan fan when it comes to in-ring ability.

How about Wrestlemania 13 for starters?

If I remember correctly, Shawn didn't wrestle anyone at Wm 13. All he did was commentate.

What would HBK have gained from that? Would he be a bigger legend now? Is he any less of a legend now? The answer, in both cases, is no.

So, who cares who went over?

Oh, and ask Mick Foley what happens when one comes back to continuously put guys over.

All you care about in WWE is to see people get put over and to make money. I like to see the person who deserves to win get the win. It's that simple. I don't think Hogan deserved it after just suddenly coming back then leaving again.

Then this is just turning a blind eye to the truth. Sting is my favorite wrestler, and I know he's had bad matches. So has Hogan, Hart, Cena, and every other wrestler. It happens. For you to claim that Shawn has never had a bad match is refusing to admit reality, and shows just how unreliable your opinion on him really is. Again, you're turning a blind eye to reality, simply to justify your position.

I aren't turning a blind eye to anything. But no matter what position he's been in, he's still had a good match, he's still pulled off his moves and worked the crowd. It might not have been as effective every time, but he's still done it. Shawn generally puts on such good matches anyway that you seem to class an average match for any other wrestler, a bad one for him.

How does Cena come "out of his comfort zone" in good matches? What's the difference between a "normal" Cena PPV match, and a special Cena PPV match? For that matter, could you describe to me what a "normal" Cena PPV match is, and point me to three example of it?

John Cena wrestled Kurt Angle at No way out a few years ago for a title shot. - This was bad in so many ways. And the ending bored me. It had been a simple match with an FU to finish I believe it was. And no just before you say I'm blaming Cena, this was one of Angles worst matches as well.

Cnea V Angle again, Survivor Series 05. Hmm what happened? Oh yeah Cena pinned Angle after FU-ing him. This match was made slightly more interesting with a Special guest referee, but it still wasn't the best for a WWE champion.

And, so you can't say I'm biased towards Shawn; his match with Cena at Wm 23 was boring. It was better than the two Agle matches said above, but still I expected moer from 2 apparently great wrestlers. I know we got more on Raw after that but this was a let down. Cena finished this match with a STFU. Which is what I mean when I say some wrestlers take Cena out of his comfort zone of a simple match and an FU to get the win.

Or, maybe you have never seen it? Yeah, I'm going with that.

Which PPV was it at? Seeings as I've seen them all I doubt that's the case.

When you understand what professional wrestling is all about, you'll realize the ridiculousness of that statement.

You just put Cena in the same category as Shawn Michaels who you feel is the greatest wrestler ever. So, are you admitting Cena is very good?

I feel the two statements go hand in hand here. Yes I believe Cena is very good at doing his job which is to make money for the WWE. He does it better than so many people who have tried it beforehand. But where we disagree is what makes a good wrestler. I go for more in-ring ability, whereas you go for more of the entertainment side. Which is fair, it is sports entertainment. But it's also sport, and I would like to see the wrestlers who deserve to win winning here. And I aren't just talking about Shawn and Cena when I say this.

And, why do you think he's so good at making money? I mean, if he wasn't a good wrestler, would people pay to see him? Of course not. People do it because they know he will always give them a good show.

Thus, proving that Cena is one of the best wrestlers in the world, and disproving your basis for saying that HBK carried Cena on Raw.

I went to a house show last year just before Cena got injured. I can't say the same for America, because I haven't been to one over there so in America my view may be entirely wrong. But tha majority of Cena fans happened to be the Women and little kids who walked around saying Word Life. I was talking to a few fans sat around me, and 3 different men said to me they were only there because their wife fancied John Cena. Which is all part of his appeal, again doing his job and making money. I aren't denying he can do that.

That is exactly what I said from the beginning. Geez...

And why does Hogan have such a large fanbase? Because the man can still outwork and outperform 95% of the current wrestlers in the country.

And to claim that HBK carried Hogan to his best match ever is so ridiculous it doesn't even rank on a logical scale.

Hogan has such a huge fan base because at one point he was almost everything the WWE had. And I don't think any one wrestlers has carried the WWE alone as that isn't possible, but he did so much for professional wrestling and he has earned respect of almost all fans that aren't new. And with his reality show and films he's just created himself an even bigger fanbase. I aren't saying he didn't deserve it. I was just saying I agree with you when you say it wouldn't have sold as well if Hogan wasn't competing.

And I never said it was Hogans best match ever, but IMO it was one of them. But if you think Hogan is so good, you'll say he's had a lot of 'best' matches.

 

[BooCocky]

Ya well to the majortiy of fans Hogan is the God of wrestling. I'm not saying Shawn made him look good, because he wouldn't have been wrestling for so long if he couldn't do that himself. But PERSONALLY I've never been a big Hogan fan when it comes to in-ring ability.

thats absurd, if he was talentless he hack he wouldn't be in a wrestling ring. Hogan was, and still is a gift to the wrestling industry, the mans in ring name sells.

All you care about in WWE is to see people get put over and to make money. I like to see the person who deserves to win get the win. It's that simple. I don't think Hogan deserved it after just suddenly coming back then leaving again.

Its a business, and their number one priority is too make money. Hogan sells, and is the biggest name in the industry. Of course he deserved the win.. people wanted to see hogan win. People didnt pay to see Hogan lose.

I aren't turning a blind eye to anything. But no matter what position he's been in, he's still had a good match, he's still pulled off his moves and worked the crowd. It might not have been as effective every time, but he's still done it. Shawn generally puts on such good matches anyway that you seem to class an average match for any other wrestler, a bad one for him.

Who Michaels? He is overrated IMO. Michaels had some horrendous matches in his career. The match with Hogan was illogical, his selling was poor, and he was trying to show up someone who is more dominant. He tried to show up the bigger name imo to get recognized.

John Cena wrestled Kurt Angle at No way out a few years ago for a title shot. - This was bad in so many ways. And the ending bored me. It had been a simple match with an FU to finish I believe it was. And no just before you say I'm blaming Cena, this was one of Angles worst matches as well.

Bored you? But many people were into those matches if i call correctly. McMahon and the WWE cant satisfy everyone, but they satisfy the majority of the fans.

Cnea V Angle again, Survivor Series 05. Hmm what happened? Oh yeah Cena pinned Angle after FU-ing him.

Thats his finishing maneuver. Do you want Cena to pin him after hitting a flying elbow drop?

This match was made slightly more interesting with a Special guest referee, but it still wasn't the best for a WWE champion.

Wrestlers have bad matches

And, so you can't say I'm biased towards Shawn; his match with Cena at Wm 23 was boring.

tell that to 80,000 fans that attended the show, plus the millions who watched it on television. WrestleMania 23 is the highest-grossing pay-per-view in WWE history and the highest-grossing event in professional wrestling history in North America.

Cena finished this match with a STFU. Which is what I mean when I say some wrestlers take Cena out of his comfort zone of a simple match and an FU to get the win.

Again it is his special maneuver. How do people take Cena out of his comfort zone?

Which PPV was it at? Seeings as I've seen them all I doubt that's the case.

Cena vs Lashley? Wasnt it at the GAB? it was nearly 20 minutes of goodness

I feel the two statements go hand in hand here. Yes I believe Cena is very good at doing his job which is to make money for the WWE.

Again, the WWE is a business, of course the main guy is capable of making money.

He does it better than so many people who have tried it beforehand. But where we disagree is what makes a good wrestler. I go for more in-ring ability, whereas you go for more of the entertainment side.

So from your logic, Cruiserweights should be running the WWE because they are more talented than the majority of the wrestlers? Its Entertainment. That is what the E stands for. Shawn Michaels cant sell, or draw when compared to Cena, it is that simple.

I went to a house show last year just before Cena got injured. I can't say the same for America, because I haven't been to one over there so in America my view may be entirely wrong. But tha majority of Cena fans happened to be the Women and little kids who walked around saying Word Life. I was talking to a few fans sat around me, and 3 different men said to me they were only there because their wife fancied John Cena. Which is all part of his appeal, again doing his job and making money. I aren't denying he can do that.

Cena fans range in age and gender, it is only this board who believes all Cena fans are young kids, and woman. Why do you see older guys on the television cheering when he comes out? They aren't young, nor are they woman. Well atleast i'd hope not

Hogan has such a huge fan base because at one point he was almost everything the WWE had.

Biggest name the business has ever seen. Hulkamania, what a great era. His heel run? What a great era. The man outpopped the Rock just miles outside of the Rocks hometown.

And I never said it was Hogans best match ever, but IMO it was one of them. But if you think Hogan is so good, you'll say he's had a lot of 'best' matches.

The match was good because of Hogan. hogan made that match enjoyable, not HBKs poor selling, and little hissy fits.

 

[HBK-aholic]

thats absurd, if he was talentless he hack he wouldn't be in a wrestling ring. Hogan was, and still is a gift to the wrestling industry, the mans in ring name sells.

I never said Hogan was talentless, my last post I praised him for being almost everything to the WWE at one point. But not everyone likes every wrestlers style, I just didn't like Hogans.

Its a business, and their number one priority is too make money. Hogan sells, and is the biggest name in the industry. Of course he deserved the win.. people wanted to see hogan win. People didnt pay to see Hogan lose.

Well once again, that's where I disagree with a lot of people on wrestling. I like to see the wrestlers who deserves it, or can make something out of it win. I know nothing really happened after this match, but their could have been an angle where Shawn became overly egotistical and something could have happened.

Who Michaels? He is overrated IMO. Michaels had some horrendous matches in his career. The match with Hogan was illogical, his selling was poor, and he was trying to show up someone who is more dominant. He tried to show up the bigger name imo to get recognized.

Shawn doesn't need to do anything in wrestling anymore to get recognised. Whatever happens he is still going to be one of the best wrestlers ever to set foot in that ring.

Bored you? But many people were into those matches if i call correctly. McMahon and the WWE cant satisfy everyone, but they satisfy the majority of the fans.

I know they can't satisfy everyone. WWE sells their product to what they class as the majority. It's logical business. But that doesn't stop me having an opinion on why it bores ME.

Thats his finishing maneuver. Do you want Cena to pin him after hitting a flying elbow drop?

Yeah but it's more the match in between that. From the beginning to finishing. Meh I'm Shawn's biggest fan, I don't think I can say anything about a wrestler finishing in the same way all the time. I think I nearly died of shock when I saw him win with the Inverted Figure four.

Wrestlers have bad matches

Yet a few of them; Shawn, Taker for example are so over, and so good already that yes they have bad matches for them, but they're just average matches when compared to some others.

tell that to 80,000 fans that attended the show, plus the millions who watched it on television. WrestleMania 23 is the highest-grossing pay-per-view in WWE history and the highest-grossing event in professional wrestling history in North America.

That's because the WWE sells highly all their matches and PPV's. Ofetn the product is a little disappointing.

Again it is his special maneuver. How do people take Cena out of his comfort zone?

I'm using the finishers to basically sum up the match, I know that match wasn't all about that. If it was Shawn would have left a long time ago.

Cena vs Lashley? Wasnt it at the GAB? it was nearly 20 minutes of goodness

Now I'm just confused as to why I don't remember it. Lol

Again, the WWE is a business, of course the main guy is capable of making money.

So from your logic, Cruiserweights should be running the WWE because they are more talented than the majority of the wrestlers? Its Entertainment. That is what the E stands for. Shawn Michaels cant sell, or draw when compared to Cena, it is that simple.

They shouldn't be running the WWE because I know it is all about money. And you're just repeating what I've already said about it being entertainment. But the truth is most Cruiserweights do have more talent than the WWE champion.

Shawn Michaels has done everything he possibly could for the WWE. Before the days of Cena. You seem to be forgetting that.

Cena fans range in age and gender, it is only this board who believes all Cena fans are young kids, and woman. Why do you see older guys on the television cheering when he comes out? They aren't young, nor are they woman. Well atleast i'd hope not

I have this opinion from first hand experience of it. I said it may not be true in America, but over here it's very much that way.

Biggest name the business has ever seen. Hulkamania, what a great era. His heel run? What a great era. The man outpopped the Rock just miles outside of the Rocks hometown.

The match was good because of Hogan. hogan made that match enjoyable, not HBKs poor selling, and little hissy fits.

Hulk Hogan deserves to be mentioned as one of the best. But when you define best it's hard to explain the best of what. Because Hogan and Cena are both 2 of the best at selling and making money. (Before it gets repeated, yes I know that's what the WWE is about).

Hogan didn't make that match memorable. You could tell he hadn't wreslted properly in ages.

 

[BooCocky]

I never said Hogan was talentless, my last post I praised him for being almost everything to the WWE at one point. But not everyone likes every wrestlers style, I just didn't like Hogans.

Wow one person doesn;t like Hogan. Watch out, one out of 7 million people

Well once again, that's where I disagree with a lot of people on wrestling. I like to see the wrestlers who deserves it, or can make something out of it win. I know nothing really happened after this match, but their could have been an angle where Shawn became overly egotistical and something could have happened.

They didnt have a second math because Shawns ego would have taken a hit, because he didnt want to lose again, and he didnt want to lose to Hogan. HBK is an Egotist.

Shawn doesn't need to do anything in wrestling anymore to get recognised. Whatever happens he is still going to be one of the best wrestlers ever to set foot in that ring.

Meh, Hogan doesnt either, but that doesnt mean he shouldn't win... After all he was the face in their feud, so they were paying to see him win. Michaels is lucky to make the top five.

I know they can't satisfy everyone. WWE sells their product to what they class as the majority. It's logical business. But that doesn't stop me having an opinion on why it bores ME.

wow one person. One out nearly 6 million people. the WWE must be doing something right

Yet a few of them; Shawn, Taker for example are so over, and so good already that yes they have bad matches for them, but they're just average matches when compared to some others.

HMM taker matches, his first few at WM were awful and when he returned. they were pretty bad matches

That's because the WWE sells highly all their matches and PPV's. Ofetn the product is a little disappointing.

Those fans were cheering throughout the PPV, and it really wasn't that good of a card if i remember correctly.

Now I'm just confused as to why I don't remember it. Lol

Because you probably didnt bother watching it.

They shouldn't be running the WWE because I know it is all about money. And you're just repeating what I've already said about it being entertainment. But the truth is most Cruiserweights do have more talent than the WWE champion.

Bull Rey is more talented than most people on the roster, but he isnt holding gold. Yang, and helms are talented to, but they arent holding heavyweight gold. Why is that? they dont appeal.

Shawn Michaels has done everything he possibly could for the WWE. Before the days of Cena. You seem to be forgetting that.

Like what Get outmatched By Austin, the Rock, and Possibly taker? What has Shawn done that is so remarkable? Besides whine like a school girl when he hasnt gotten his way

I have this opinion from first hand experience of it. I said it may not be true in America, but over here it's very much that way.

How do you come to this assumption? one crowd at a house show?

Hulk Hogan deserves to be mentioned as one of the best. But when you define best it's hard to explain the best of what. Because Hogan and Cena are both 2 of the best at selling and making money. (Before it gets repeated, yes I know that's what the WWE is about).

thats because they are entertainers.

Hogan didn't make that match memorable. You could tell he hadn't wreslted properly in ages.

The crowd was into the match because of hogans charisma, and the story behind it. Not because Michaels over sold several moves.

 

[Slyfox696]

Ya well to the majortiy of fans Hogan is the God of wrestling. I'm not saying Shawn made him look good, because he wouldn't have been wrestling for so long if he couldn't do that himself. But PERSONALLY I've never been a big Hogan fan when it comes to in-ring ability.

That's fine. He doesn't appeal to your tastes. But to say that was Hogan's best match, and that HBK was the reason it was good, is completely missing the boat.

You may never have been a big Hogan fan when it comes to in-ring ability, but you are very clearly in the minority and have been for 30 years.

If I remember correctly, Shawn didn't wrestle anyone at Wm 13. All he did was commentate.

Because....?

Keep going. You'll get there.

All you care about in WWE is to see people get put over and to make money. I like to see the person who deserves to win get the win. It's that simple. I don't think Hogan deserved it after just suddenly coming back then leaving again.

No, that's all the WWE cares about. But, the people who get put over, and the people who make money go hand in hand. Meaning that if you are over, then you make money. For someone to be over, they have to be entertaining. The WWE can push you all they want, but if you are not entertaining, you will not become over.

As far as suddenly coming back, what world are you living in? Hogan was inducted in the Hall of Fame, made appearance saving Eugene at Wrestlemania, wrestled with HBK at Backlash, made a couple of Raw appearances before that, made the Raw appearance where he got superkicked. It's not like Hogan materialized out of thin air.

I aren't turning a blind eye to anything. But no matter what position he's been in, he's still had a good match, he's still pulled off his moves and worked the crowd. It might not have been as effective every time, but he's still done it. Shawn generally puts on such good matches anyway that you seem to class an average match for any other wrestler, a bad one for him.

No, I'm just saying that to say HBK has never had a bad match makes your opinion unreliable. I'm as big of a Sting fan as anyone, and I know he's had bad matches. I'm probably the biggest Cena supporter here, and I know he's had bad matches. EVERY wrestler has bad matches.

And, so you can't say I'm biased towards Shawn; his match with Cena at Wm 23 was boring. It was better than the two Agle matches said above, but still I expected moer from 2 apparently great wrestlers. I know we got more on Raw after that but this was a let down. Cena finished this match with a STFU. Which is what I mean when I say some wrestlers take Cena out of his comfort zone of a simple match and an FU to get the win.

The Wrestlemania match was the best match on the card. It often gets overlooked because a) Batista/Undertaker exceeded expectations b) Cena/Michaels had HUGE expectations and c) their Raw match was better. But HBK/Cena from Wrestlemania was a very good match.

And, Cena uses the STFU just as much as he uses the FU to win his matches. Not exactly taking him out of a supposed "comfort zone".

Which PPV was it at? Seeings as I've seen them all I doubt that's the case.

Great American Bash. You know, where they tore the house down? Where the roof exploded when Cena won? You know, the match where Jim Ross spent no less than 10 minutes the next night on Raw talking about how great of a match it was?

Go watch it again.

I feel the two statements go hand in hand here. Yes I believe Cena is very good at doing his job which is to make money for the WWE. He does it better than so many people who have tried it beforehand. But where we disagree is what makes a good wrestler. I go for more in-ring ability, whereas you go for more of the entertainment side. Which is fair, it is sports entertainment. But it's also sport, and I would like to see the wrestlers who deserve to win winning here. And I aren't just talking about Shawn and Cena when I say this.

Oh my...did you really say that?

Do you not understand that to be entertaining in the ring, you have to have good in-ring ability? You're making a distinction where there is none. You can't be a good in-ring wrestler if you're not entertaining, and you cannot be entertaining if you're not good in the ring.

Hogan has such a huge fan base because at one point he was almost everything the WWE had.

You mean besides Andre, Steamboat, Race, Savage, DiBiase, Orndorff, Piper, Warrior, Henning, Slaughter etc.?

And I never said it was Hogans best match ever but IMO it was one of them.

And, I say that you probably haven't watched too many Hogan matches, or you are only saying that because Shawn was in the match.

But if you think Hogan is so good, you'll say he's had a lot of 'best' matches.

He's had a LOT better matches than the one with HBK. I like Shawn Michaels just fine, but to say this match was one of HBK's or Hogan's best matches is ludicrous.

Let's put it this way. What if I said this was Shawn Michael's best match ever, and the reason for that was because of Hulk Hogan. How would you perceive that statement? Entirely false and you wouldn't begin to understand how I could make such a statement, right? Well, that's how it goes for your statement that this was one of Hogan's better matches.

They shouldn't be running the WWE because I know it is all about money. And you're just repeating what I've already said about it being entertainment. But the truth is most Cruiserweights do have more talent than the WWE champion.

Blatantly false. Having talent in wrestling is ALL about being entertaining enough to make people want to pay to see you. THAT'S what talent is. And that's why most cruiserweights can't compare in talent to the guy who is the biggest draw.

They may be able to do more cool flips, and run faster in the ring, but that's not what makes someone talented in the scripted world of professional wrestling.

Shawn Michaels has done everything he possibly could for the WWE. Before the days of Cena. You seem to be forgetting that.

And everything he did, doesn't compare to Cena's drawing ability now. At no time did HBK draw like Cena is now. You seem to be forgetting that.

Why go to an ROH show, when I can watch grass grow and be entertained just the same amount?

Since when am I an unknown poster? Give me the credit I deserve damnit!

That's from my post on Youtube.

 

[justinsayne]

And everything he did, doesn't compare to Cena's drawing ability now. At no time did HBK draw like Cena is now. You seem to be forgetting that.

Cena draw more now cause he has no competition on Monday nights, Unlike HBK, who when he was on top of the company was going up against WCW and the NWO storyline, one of the most popular story lines in Sports entertainment, If Cena had the same kind of competition on Monday nights do you honestly beleive he would still be drawing as well?, If HBK didn't have that competition, then he would have most likely drew more of those fans to WWE, seeing as how they would have no alternative to get their wrestling fix on Monday nights

 

[Nin]

Is he past his best? I would say yes. These past couple of month's he's not seemed like himself. He looked shaky when he came back and i think it's taken some confidence off him. Having said that, HBK even at 50% still destroys most of the roster.

Should he retire? Well that depends on your point of view. If you're Michaels then yeah, he should go and spend time with his kids while they're young. If you're a fan then absolutely not.

All i can really suggest is to watch his match at Wrestlemania this year, because whether his knees are shot, he's past his best or whatever, you can damn well guarantee he'll steal the show, just as he does every year.
I really would love to see him win the belt one more time because he deserves it. Were it to happen at WM24 the arena would go ballistic.

 

[Nin]

As for this Cena/Michaels thing (again). I would say drawing power isnt always indicative of talent. Sometimes it's simply appealing to the lowest common denominator, which is exactly what Cena does.
Now the saying goes you cant wrong appealing to the lowest common denominator but Wrestlemania and the weeks leading up to it proved that wrong. Who were the crowd cheering for? Do you think the majority of the fans at WM went home happy or pissed off?

 

[HBK-aholic]

Wow one person doesn;t like Hogan. Watch out, one out of 7 million people

wow one person. One out nearly 6 million people. the WWE must be doing something right

So what if I'm one person in the millions as you say? That doesn't make my opinion any less valid than yours. I don't care if I'm outnumbered, if I think it I'll say it.

It's not like I'm denying Hogan did loads for the WWE. I know he did loads. I know he'll probably be the most famnous wrestler ever and I respect him for it, but that doesn't mean I have to be in love with his style like everyone else seems to be.

They didnt have a second math because Shawns ego would have taken a hit, because he didnt want to lose again, and he didnt want to lose to Hogan. HBK is an Egotist.

Whether you think shawn is egotistical or not, he wouldn't have said no to a feud. I think they could have made it really interesting, but the WWE didn't take up on that.

Meh, Hogan doesnt either, but that doesnt mean he shouldn't win... After all he was the face in their feud, so they were paying to see him win. Michaels is lucky to make the top five.

Shawn isn't lucky to make the top 5. He'd make it easily.

HMM taker matches, his first few at WM were awful and when he returned. they were pretty bad matches

Ya well I aren't a big fan of Undertakers Wrestlemnia streak, but that's a different story.

Those fans were cheering throughout the PPV, and it really wasn't that good of a card if i remember correctly.

I was talking about every PPV in general, not just one.

Because you probably didnt bother watching it.

But I watched GAB. I'm going to go hunt it down anyway.

Bull Rey is more talented than most people on the roster, but he isnt holding gold. Yang, and helms are talented to, but they arent holding heavyweight gold. Why is that? they dont appeal.

I know. They'll never become champion, because they aren't what's 'in'. But it doesn't mean they don't hav a lot of talent.

Like what Get outmatched By Austin, the Rock, and Possibly taker? What has Shawn done that is so remarkable? Besides whine like a school girl when he hasnt gotten his way

He revolutionised Tag Team wrestling with Marty Jannety. Don't even try to deny this. They made tag team wrestling about team work, not just a singles match but with 4 people involved. Watch matches before The Rockers and afterwards.

He was the First Grand Slam champion. He won everything he could, and was the first to do it.

He came back from an injury most people would have been forced to retire from. He has strength and determination.

He has had great matches with the best and worst of them.

He has more passion than anyone I have ever seen wrestle.

How do you come to this assumption? one crowd at a house show?

Well a few shows actually, but yeah that's my assumption. I've admitted it may be wrong for others, but everyone's assumptions come from somewhere; that just happens to be mine.

thats because they are entertainers.

But if they were only entertainers they'd be at a Childrens party or in a soap opera. The WWE is more than that.

The crowd was into the match because of hogans charisma, and the story behind it. Not because Michaels over sold several moves.

The crowd was into this match because it was 2 greats. No matter how bad the match could have been there would have been a fan reaction.