Shane Douglas Demands "Dic Flair" On a Silver Platter...

[X]

Firstly, don’t blame me because you don’t know what a good wrestling match is.

Funny stuff, really. Clearly you don't know me. At all. Glad to see the first thing you've done in your post is insult me though, that's always a nice way to start off.

And just because I said ‘wrestling’ does not mean I said it was a pure mat technical classic. Wrestling encompasses a great deal of things and certainly not just technical moves (although there were definitely those in the match).

The fact that you emphasized the word "WRESTLING" match was clearly intending to imply that the match was a great technical match, don't pretend you weren't. When you think of a great brawl you don't emphasize the word "WRESTLING" as the emphasis and focus of the match was not on wrestling but rather brawling. I'm well aware that a match doesn't need to be a mat or technical classic to be good, I watch quite literally every style of professional wrestling from Memphis Moondog brawling to strong style to sports entertainment to lucha, joshi, deathmatches and beyond. Don't talk down to me like I don't know what a good wrestling match is bucko, sorry to burst your bubble, but the three way from The Night the Line Was Crossed was shit, and the majority of wrestling critics and fans alike would agree with me on that sentiment. I feel sad for anyone who actually thought that match was a classic. You were duped.

Secondly, this was the very first Three Way Dance and gave birth to what now is done fairly regularly and has been done thousands of times since.

First, it absolutely was not the first three-way match-up in wrestling, that's flat out incorrect, UWFi and FMW among other promotions had utilized three-way elimination matches for several years before ECW was created.

Secondly, just because it was the first mainstream three-way match of it's kind, it absolutely does not make it a good match.

At this time it was ground breaking

No it wasn't. It was the typical early 90s US indy promotion main event, 60 minutes of mostly garbage wrestling.

the spots were inventive and had never been done

Absolutely false, there was nothing groundbreaking about the match. What was ground-breaking? Breaking tables? Done many times before. The three-man sleeper? Done before. Aside from that, honestly, can't recall a single other spot from the match because it's such a dull, forgettable affair. Hardly one of the better ECW main events even in the early days, the Funk-Gilbert brawls were far more spirited and entertaining.

and the crowd ate it up.

You mean aside from half of the match when they're completely silent because they have no clue what's going on as Funk, Sabu, Douglas, and eventually the Rotten brothers all start brawling all around the arena? And then we get a time-limit draw. That crowd clearly doesn't know what a good wrestling match is if they thought that was a classic. It wasn't.

It’s also arguably the match that pushed ECW from a regional promotional to a cult phenomenon.

Which goes back to me saying it's one of the most overrated matches of all time. Then again if you actually seek out reviews for that show from ECW, the majority of them at MOST will give that match *** maybe, most of them however agree the match was a long ,dull affair.

Watching it sixteen years later when wrestling has evolved so incredibly much can certainly alter ones perspective.

Wasn't the first time I had watched the match either, had seen it several times before many years ago, the first time I saw it I believe was in 2001 on a shitty dubbed ECW comp from RF. I remember not being thrilled with it even than as a teenager and watching it again over the years it continues to remind me how bad of a match it is.

Thirdly, we’re talking about the Three Way Dance from ‘the Night the Line was Crossed’. I don’t know what the hell match you were watching.

That is absolutely the match I'm talking about. Clearly you're the one who needs a refresher on that match, as I described it accurately in my post, complete with references to the interference by the Bad Breed at the end of the match and the fact that it went 60 minutes. I know perfectly well what match we're discussing, and it's a terrible one.

No one claimed the NWA had the roster of a WWF or WCW at the time. But there was Terry Funk, 2 Cold Scorpio, Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, and countless others.

First off Terry Funk was back in WCW during the fall of 1994, so no he was not an option. Secondly, Scorpio was still unknown outside of New Japan, as were both Benoit and Malenko, and Malenko was never going to be a "Heavyweight" champion for the NWA or really any promotion. Douglas was really their only choice. He had wrestled, partnered and feuded with the likes of Ricky Steamboat, the Hollywood Blondes and Barry Windham. He was the biggest name ECW had at that time. Really though, this is pretty irrelevant. It has nothing to do with my original point about the three way dance being horseshit.

They were on the same level if not higher as the top TNA stars when that company started with NWA or Ring of Honor right now, so you downplaying Shane Douglas being chosen as the best option isn’t exactly a true view of the landscape at that time.

Well that's ridiculous. TNA had a national PPV deal from day one, ECW was barely able to sell VHS of it's event to 500 people or get their TV aired on a channel that wasn't local access. ECW was the only option NWA had at that time.

I mean, it wasn’t like Shane Douglas was ranked 32 on the PWI top 500 in 1994 or anything.

Who the fuck cares? The PWI means jackshit to me, and it's irrelevant in a discussion about the quality of a match in question, which was my point. His 32 ranking didn't help him put on an entertaining match that night, sorry.

That’s your opinion, man. The fact that it’s remembered and talked about for the match it was in terms of ANY year by so many people and has over all these years, I think proves you wrong. Nice try, though.

Just because someone talks about a match years after it takes place doesn't mean it was a good match. People still constantly talk about the Lesnar-Goldberg match from Wrestlemania 20, and that's generally considered one of the worst matches of all time. People still remember Hogan vs. Warrior at Halloween Havoc 1998, same deal.

Sorry, but if you actually stopped and watched the match from an objective viewpoint, you'd see what I and most others did---an incredibly dull and poorly executed brawl that was nowhere near a match of the year candidate in any shape, way, or form.

Nice try though.

 

[Kenny Powers]

There is no way Flair is agreeing to this even if TNA did. TNA brought Douglas in last year to wrestle Daniels. I enjoy Douglas' mic work and he did help breathe life into ECW, but the man is way beyond his prime. I don't believe Flair should be wrestling either, but at least Flair can still go compared to Douglas.

Do any of the majority of TNA or ECW fans care that Douglas isn't there? I don't think so. The PPV isn't in Philly or New York and Paul Heyman is probably not going to be there. There is much more things to worry about then Shane Douglas.

 

[MisterRob]

Funny stuff, really. Clearly you don't know me. At all. Glad to see the first thing you've done in your post is insult me though, that's always a nice way to start off.



The fact that you emphasized the word "WRESTLING" match was clearly intending to imply that the match was a great technical match, don't pretend you weren't. When you think of a great brawl you don't emphasize the word "WRESTLING" as the emphasis and focus of the match was not on wrestling but rather brawling. I'm well aware that a match doesn't need to be a mat or technical classic to be good, I watch quite literally every style of professional wrestling from Memphis Moondog brawling to strong style to sports entertainment to lucha, joshi, deathmatches and beyond. Don't talk down to me like I don't know what a good wrestling match is bucko, sorry to burst your bubble, but the three way from The Night the Line Was Crossed was shit, and the majority of wrestling critics and fans alike would agree with me on that sentiment. I feel sad for anyone who actually thought that match was a classic. You were duped.



First, it absolutely was not the first three-way match-up in wrestling, that's flat out incorrect, UWFi and FMW among other promotions had utilized three-way elimination matches for several years before ECW was created.

Secondly, just because it was the first mainstream three-way match of it's kind, it absolutely does not make it a good match.



No it wasn't. It was the typical early 90s US indy promotion main event, 60 minutes of mostly garbage wrestling.



Absolutely false, there was nothing groundbreaking about the match. What was ground-breaking? Breaking tables? Done many times before. The three-man sleeper? Done before. Aside from that, honestly, can't recall a single other spot from the match because it's such a dull, forgettable affair. Hardly one of the better ECW main events even in the early days, the Funk-Gilbert brawls were far more spirited and entertaining.



You mean aside from half of the match when they're completely silent because they have no clue what's going on as Funk, Sabu, Douglas, and eventually the Rotten brothers all start brawling all around the arena? And then we get a time-limit draw. That crowd clearly doesn't know what a good wrestling match is if they thought that was a classic. It wasn't.



Which goes back to me saying it's one of the most overrated matches of all time. Then again if you actually seek out reviews for that show from ECW, the majority of them at MOST will give that match *** maybe, most of them however agree the match was a long ,dull affair.



Wasn't the first time I had watched the match either, had seen it several times before many years ago, the first time I saw it I believe was in 2001 on a shitty dubbed ECW comp from RF. I remember not being thrilled with it even than as a teenager and watching it again over the years it continues to remind me how bad of a match it is.



That is absolutely the match I'm talking about. Clearly you're the one who needs a refresher on that match, as I described it accurately in my post, complete with references to the interference by the Bad Breed at the end of the match and the fact that it went 60 minutes. I know perfectly well what match we're discussing, and it's a terrible one.




First off Terry Funk was back in WCW during the fall of 1994, so no he was not an option. Secondly, Scorpio was still unknown outside of New Japan, as were both Benoit and Malenko, and Malenko was never going to be a "Heavyweight" champion for the NWA or really any promotion. Douglas was really their only choice. He had wrestled, partnered and feuded with the likes of Ricky Steamboat, the Hollywood Blondes and Barry Windham. He was the biggest name ECW had at that time. Really though, this is pretty irrelevant. It has nothing to do with my original point about the three way dance being horseshit.



Well that's ridiculous. TNA had a national PPV deal from day one, ECW was barely able to sell VHS of it's event to 500 people or get their TV aired on a channel that wasn't local access. ECW was the only option NWA had at that time.



Who the fuck cares? The PWI means jackshit to me, and it's irrelevant in a discussion about the quality of a match in question, which was my point. His 32 ranking didn't help him put on an entertaining match that night, sorry.



Just because someone talks about a match years after it takes place doesn't mean it was a good match. People still constantly talk about the Lesnar-Goldberg match from Wrestlemania 20, and that's generally considered one of the worst matches of all time. People still remember Hogan vs. Warrior at Halloween Havoc 1998, same deal.

Sorry, but if you actually stopped and watched the match from an objective viewpoint, you'd see what I and most others did---an incredibly dull and poorly executed brawl that was nowhere near a match of the year candidate in any shape, way, or form.

Nice try though.

Please don't tell me what I was intending to imply as if you know how I think, like you pretend to know what others feel about matches and how the wrestling world views history. You don't. Wrestling to me isn't just technical moves, it's the in ring moves combined with the story being told, the crowd's reaction, and all sorts of elements that I believe make up a WRESTLING match. People can do technical moves all they want, much like they can do high spots and flashy moves all they want, that isn't to me a complete 'wrestling' match.

We'll just have to agree to disagree though in the case of this match, since you have your opinion and I have mine and references to anonymous imaginary people and our view of history really isn't proof either way.

As per the topic of this thread though, I certainly don't think Shane Douglas appearing or not appearing is going to make or break the PPV (as I don't believe any of the originals appearing or not will). It would be interesting if this was part shoot and part work though, and it would certainly go along with the Franchise character if it was.

 

[truthseeker]

Honestly Rob, you lost the argument. At least he defended his points and attacked what he thought was your weaknesses. And all you gotta say was "agree to disagree". Seems like someone who knew they lost, but did not want to admit it.
If you believed you were right, you would have responded to each of his point; not come back with "fk you, I loved it and nothing you say can change that". Lol maybe you just had a special connection with the match and is delusional to what it really was.
And oh, this sentence
"Please don't tell me what I was intending to imply as if you know how I think"
If you can't even convey to other people in a clear way what it is that you are thinking and get them to think like you, maybe you should stop arguing.

 

[dogmanx23]

They already wrestled in WCW when Russo/Bishoff took over. All that stuff on the site could be a work. It has Old ECW all over it.

Shane crashing the show, gets in the ring and calls out Dick Flair. I can see it happening.

 

[harrythem]

I'm sorry but am I the only one that noticed that fat boy Douglas wanted Flair on a "Silver platter"...he wants to eat him is my call!!

Seriously though, if Douglas wants Flair because he used to shout about him in ECW, then surely they should get Shawn Michaels there as well, seeing as he was a major object of ECW heat back in the day.

Oh what I'd pay to see New Jack turn up and destroy Douglas...or even have Francine beat him for being a cunt and the only guy that flat-out refused to appear at her charity ECW event a few years ago.

 

[MisterRob]

Honestly Rob, you lost the argument. At least he defended his points and attacked what he thought was your weaknesses. And all you gotta say was "agree to disagree". Seems like someone who knew they lost, but did not want to admit it.
If you believed you were right, you would have responded to each of his point; not come back with "fk you, I loved it and nothing you say can change that". Lol maybe you just had a special connection with the match and is delusional to what it really was.

His arguments were all based on opinion, that's hardly proving anything. I'm not going to waste my time telling him his OPINION is wrong when he's entitled to his opinion and his view on how things were back then, whether I disagree or not.

That match was like all US indy matches at the time? Purely opinion.

Saying the entire crowd that watched that match and stood up and gave the three of them a standing ovation doesn't know what a good match is compared to HIS opinion? Yeeeah.

Stating anonymous reviews of that match were bad, reviews that he never even proves even exist? Opinion.

Stating he's watched the match before and wasn't fond of it the first time? Opinion.

Stating why Shane Douglas was chosen to win the NWA championship? Purely speculative opinion.

Stating PWI means jackshit to HIM? Opinion.

Stating that because someone talks about a match years after it takes place doesn't mean it was a good match? His opinion, especially since his examples don't even compare to this one as those matches he references are remembered for being BAD. People remember and have referenced the Three Way time and time again and their references haven't been because it's been a 'bad' match.

"Sorry, but if you actually stopped and watched the match from an objective viewpoint, you'd see what I and most others did"--- Entirely opinion baed on anonymous and imaginary people he's referencing.

So like I said, because it's based purely on opinion here we're going to have to agree to disagree since he hasn't proven a thing except that he has a strong OPINION on the match.

And oh, this sentence
"Please don't tell me what I was intending to imply as if you know how I think"
If you can't even convey to other people in a clear way what it is that you are thinking and get them to think like you, maybe you should stop arguing.

If one person has a short sighted view of what 'wrestling' means that's really not my fault. Stating that match was just one thing and didn't have layers is just silly in my OPINION.

 

[X]

His arguments were all based on opinion, that's hardly proving anything. I'm not going to waste my time telling him his OPINION is wrong when he's entitled to his opinion and his view on how things were back then, whether I disagree or not.

So fucking what? What was your argument based on Rob, facts? Nope, pure opinion bud. The only reason I responded to you was because like a egomaniac you sat there and boldly said that no one could even ARGUE that that three way dance wasn't a classic which was bullshit as clearly here I am, arguing it with you. You laid the gauntlet down, I accepted, explained why the match was shit...and you can't explain why you liked it, other than to keep repeating that it doesn't need to be a technical classic to be a good match. I fucking know it doesn't need to be a mat classic to be a good match, I'm a huge fan of a good bloody brawl that tells a great story---that match is not one of them. It's an hour of absolute sheer fucking boredom.

That match was like all US indy matches at the time? Purely opinion.

Actually what I said was that it was like all US indy main events at the time, a psychology-free poorly executed spotfest that people just called good because some blood was shed and some tables were broken, regardless of the shit pacing of the match, shit psychology, and contrived transition from shitty spot to spot.

Saying the entire crowd that watched that match and stood up and gave the three of them a standing ovation doesn't know what a good match is compared to HIS opinion? Yeeeah.

Enough with this "thats just your opinion" bullshit Rob, I know it's my opinion, I'm explaining it to you in detail. No shit I believe my opinion is right, just as you believe your opinion is right. Those three could have stood in the middle of the ring and took a dump for 60 minutes and the crowd would have given them a standing ovation Rob.

Stating anonymous reviews of that match were bad, reviews that he never even proves even exist? Opinion.

Cool, so now we're playing this game. Here's a line directly from Scott Keith's review of this show, a man who has been reviewing wrestling for 411mania and other websites for nearly 15 years Rob and is one of the most respected wrestling critics in the business:

"This is just waaaaay too long for Sabu. Funk beats up the ref 50 minutes in, for no reason I can tell. Sabu blows two more spots as it winds down. Finally, he pins both guys, but the ref is out. Jim Molino spends the last five minutes on the floor as the three guys brawl, ineffectively, until the time limit expires. The crowd stands and cheers like they've done something special. Feh. You'd think they'd know a screwjob when they saw one. Don't believe the hype -- this was *not* a classic by any stretch of the imagination. ** "


So there's your proof that the match is considered just as shit by other reputable wrestling journalists.

Stating he's watched the match before and wasn't fond of it the first time? Opinion.

...No that's actually a factual statement Rob. I have see the match before and I wasn't fond of it the first time either. That is not opinion, that is a fact, a statement of a factual event that took place.

Stating why Shane Douglas was chosen to win the NWA championship? Purely speculative opinion.

No shit it was my opinion. What was your post about? Was that not purely your speculative opinion? We can play this game if you want man, you keep saying "Oh thats just your opinion!" while trying to pretend you aren't literally presenting your opinion in the exact same manner is insulting to me and anyone else taking the time to read this thread.

Stating that because someone talks about a match years after it takes place doesn't mean it was a good match? His opinion, especially since his examples don't even compare to this one as those matches he references are remembered for being BAD. People remember and have referenced the Three Way time and time again and their references haven't been because it's been a 'bad' match.

Really? Where are all these references about how awesome this match was Rob? Hey, I gave you proof, a direct quote from a review by a top wrestling critic, so two can play that game, where's YOUR proof bud? Where are all these unknown masses of people who are still talking about this match as a classic?

"Sorry, but if you actually stopped and watched the match from an objective viewpoint, you'd see what I and most others did"--- Entirely opinion baed on anonymous and imaginary people he's referencing.

Already gave you proof of a direct line from one critic, and if you'd like I can find several more for you from the likes of JD Dunn or even our own Klunderbunker. Where's your proof again?

So like I said, because it's based purely on opinion here we're going to have to agree to disagree since he hasn't proven a thing except that he has a strong OPINION on the match.

Well atleast I explained my opinion and reasoning, unlike you. All you've done is sit here and insult me while I try to calmly explain to you why the match really isn't a classic. But you obviously have no interest in being objective or looking at this from any other viewpoint than your own. You know how much I wanted to like that three way dance? I was fucking dying to love that match and give it a great rating, but even by sloppy psychology-free spotfests of the old ECW this was a pathetic attempt put forth by all three men.

If one person has a short sighted view of what 'wrestling' means that's really not my fault. Stating that match was just one thing and didn't have layers is just silly in my OPINION.

Here you go again, repeating that wrestling doesn't need to be a mat classic to be good. How many fucking times do I need to tell you that I know this? I've spent most of this week watching a fucking Bruiser Brody compilation, I think I know how to recognize a fun brawl.


Right, I think we're done here Rob. You wanted to be bold and say that no one could argue your point, well I did just that. Don't make blanket threatening statements if you aren't willing to defend them.

 

[MisterRob]

Who the hell is Scott Keith? Let me guess, some guy from the internet wrestling community, right, who has never been in the industry in his entire life? I think I’ll take the opinion of Terry Funk, who was not only in the match but whose a legend in the business and knows what it means to have a good match, whose wrestled hundreds of them over the span of his career and even wrestled Ric Flair, when he states it’s one of the best matches he’s been involved in. I’d definitely take that opinion as more valid then Scott Keith or any other smart mark on the internet.

That aside though, you missed what my point about all those things being your opinion was. I was stating that they’re your opinion, as all the things I’m stating are MY opinion, so instead of regurgitating our opinions on a match that technically doesn’t have anything to do with this thread I’m admitting that we’ll just have to agree to disagree so the thread can return to people commenting about Shane Douglas’s supposed statements on Hardcore Justice as opposed to arguing about a match that happened sixteen years ago and taking over the thread with it.

I’m not saying, nor did I ever say, that the match itself was some in ring wrestling classic and all three guys were the best in the business that night. But an average match can still be a great match under the right circumstances (just look at Hogan vs. Rock at WrestleMania). Where you claim it to be boring there’s people who think otherwise, and the people in attendance clearly were not bored or hating the match and their reactions prove that whether you want to stress differently or not. It was also something people (certainly the majority) had not seen in North America or on a national scale and was new and different at the time. It did have an impact beyond just the technicality of the match, it did make a difference on the ECW brand and helped change the landscape from then on, and if that match had never happened would ECW have been the same? It’s arguable it wouldn’t have. Whether you think the technical aspects of the match weren’t good, which are quite arguable and quite subjective, the effect that match had on audiences and the business doesn’t change. Often times people can look back at matches that are claimed to be classics, or spoken of in certain lights, decades later and find those matches boring or just not gain the same reaction to it as people did at the time when it was actually happening (you think fans now on mass wouldn’t think matches from the 1950s were slow, boring, or just bad?), that doesn’t make it any less good for what it was at the time. A good match to me leaves a lasting impression and effect and that match certainly has and did.


Once again, we’ll agree to disagree.

 

[One to Remember]

Are you people insane? How are you fools gonna give your approval to TNA a company that has nothing in the entire universe to do with ECW having an ECW pay per view of all pay per views then simultaneous blast the guy who made ECW into the form it was most well known for?! Everybody on that roster who rose to prominence through ECW owe a great deal to him. Even TNA owes him. They wouldn't have that revenue if Douglas haddn't given them an Extreme Championship Wrestling to slobber over. Lord knows TNA wouldn't throw a reunion show honoring Eastern Championship Wrestling with the likes of J.T. Smith, Johnny Hotbody, Tito Santana or Don Muraco..

What you people are saying is akin to an American to loves America but can't get over a hatred of George Washington, it makes no senseeeee.

As far as Douglas's conspiracy theories we weren't back stage during those times but we do know of the politics and those who politiked other wrestlers off the roster so whoare you all to sa Douglas is being a cry baby? As far as Flair is concerned, any type of match up, scripted or shoot should be Douglas' perogative. As far as him being out of shape do you know that at this exact moment right now Flair is crying over the fact that he wishes that like Douglas he was MERELY 46 AND NOT 61. I say score one for the Franchise, atleast he can still get back into shape and be realistic.