Seth Rollins Discussion

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Dude, I get it. I know what your saying.

If all the physical prowess YOU require of your wrestlers is akin to a match from 1979 between men who were HALF the athletes we have today is all you need to plunk down 50$ than I am happy for you. You're an easy sell.

For me? I need a story, physical prowess, and over-the-top fun characters. I need to be IMPRESSED by what these guys can do. I won't lay down 50$ for punch-kick-headbutt no matter how good the "story" is. I'll fall asleep before the match is over and miss the end of the "story".

You bring up Steen and Jacobs and I agree that they are probably some of the best ROH has right now. But we both know that on top of telling great stories in the ring, they DELIVER physically too. If you watched their match from last saturday you know how physical it got and what an awesome story they are telling alongside Corino (another great storyteller). THIS is the type of match I will continue to lay down money for.

We obviously have different philosophies when it comes to wrestling.

For you it seems the story is the be-all end-all regardless of complete lack of workrate. Me? I need workrate. I won't pay for less. You can call me all the names in the world but at the end of the day I'm a paying fan just like you. I expect more from my wrestling companies than you do.

O my god dude, you are NOT getting it. Race and lawler may not have the conditioning or bodies of guys today, but working a crowd and having them react to EVERY move you do for an hour (what broadway means) is more impressive than anything the entire ROH roster has done. Cept maybe Jimmy Jacobs vs BJ Whitmer and Jimmy Jacobs going crazy and starting Age of the Fall.

Mark Henry is a better athlete than Rollins ever will be. That's a fact. Mark Henry weighs 400 pounds, most people who weigh 400 pounds can't walk. Mark Henry was a world class athlete at one point, Rollins never was and never will be. You A) don't truly understand effort in the ring and B) dont' understand physical prowess anymore.

I'm not the easy sell, you are. All you require is a bunch of flips and maybe some story. You fall asleep if it's headbutt, punch, kick. You probably also fall asleep if movies aren't mindless explosions and tits. I hate Transformers and that sort of shit, I could watch There Will Be Blood every day of the week. I know you don't know anything about in ring story or really understand it because if you did, you wouldn't fall asleep. You'd think "wow that was really smart". shit like CM Punk holding the guy for his bulldog with his worn down arm, then changing over. THAT gets me interested. I don't give a shit about a flip or a fast paced match. Remember the dragon gate 6 man tag "5 star meltzer match" from like 2006 in ROH? I HATED that match. It was boring. No story, just flippy headdrop shit.

lol at you saying workrate. I'm not even joking, I literally laughed at you saying that. "Workrate" is a bullshit term made up by non-wrestlers. Watch Al Snow secrets of the ring. "What is workrate?" Is basically his response. I've NEVER in my entire life heard a single successful pro wrestler talk about how a match or a guy is good because of his workrate. It's a term used so simpletons who dont' actually understand pro wrestling can feel like they're analysing it. think about this smart guy, if a match has a high workrate, do you know what it MUST lack? SELLING. You CANNOT sell an injury if you are pulling moves off at the same speed at the end of the match as you were in the beginning unless you are selling a burst of energy, which you will have to sell the exhaustion afterwards.

You don't expect more from wrestling companies, you expect less. It's not hard to do a bunch of moves that are well rehearsed. Shit, you can train most athletes to do that stuff.

You're right, we do have different philosophies. My philosophy is backed up by harley race, ric flair, al snow, cm punk, colt cabana, samoa joe, terry funk, raven, and pretty much every successful promotion and wrestler since the dawn of time. Your philosophy is backed up by Dave "non wrestler" Meltzer and 1,000 fat pale virgins at indy shows.

You have a much more simple view of wrestling than you think. Doing a bunch of moves isn't harder than not doing a bunch of moves. Making every move count is harder.

Think about it this way. Let's say the goal is to get from point A to point B. You sprint there every day. I get a PhD in physics and aerospace engineering and design a rocket. You might be exerting more physical effort, but which was actually harder? Which will ultimately, once you master it, get you there faster?

Most indy guys are sprinters. Cena, Orton, Punk, Dragon, they're rocket scientists.

Just so we stay on topic. I think at this point, Rollins is a Chemistry major with a track scholarship. Let's hope he learns more.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

basically all it takes to impress you is taking bumps and doing a lot of moves and hurting yourself. Believe it or not, that's really not that hard to do.

remembering to sell a leg, remembering to flip your hair back so people can see your face, remembering to sell to the side of the crowd that is most vocal to generate the comeback claps, remembering stuff I never even learned to work the crowd, THAT is hard to do.

maybe you're just unathletic, but as a three sport athlete in school who follows sports, I can tell you that most of what the indy guys do in the ring isn't that hard for athletic people to do.

Think about this. These unathletic fucks can do a canadian destoryer...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v69tLw3bqK0
It's not that hard.


Another thing you should think about, the WWE audience generally isn't impressed with simply being a great athlete or moves because they know (funny how the "dumb" fans get this) that most of the shit almost any athlete can do. So Rollins is going to have to learn the art part of wrestling more.

 

[grantedisme]

basically all it takes to impress you is taking bumps and doing a lot of moves and hurting yourself. Believe it or not, that's really not that hard to do.

remembering to sell a leg, remembering to flip your hair back so people can see your face, remembering to sell to the side of the crowd that is most vocal to generate the comeback claps, remembering stuff I never even learned to work the crowd, THAT is hard to do.

maybe you're just unathletic, but as a three sport athlete in school who follows sports, I can tell you that most of what the indy guys do in the ring isn't that hard for athletic people to do.

Think about this. These unathletic fucks can do a canadian destoryer...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v69tLw3bqK0
It's not that hard.


Another thing you should think about, the WWE audience generally isn't impressed with simply being a great athlete or moves because they know (funny how the "dumb" fans get this) that most of the shit almost any athlete can do. So Rollins is going to have to learn the art part of wrestling more.

I could be wrong here, but I think you're misunderstanding Jason's posts. As I understand it, he agrees that story-telling is important in a match. He might not place as much importance on it than you, but it seems like he wants to see wrestlers doing everything that you are saying the best stars have done, but he wants to see extra athleticism in addition to that. Do you think adding spots or flips from stars who can perform them (aka: not Mark Henry, who I agree was not appreciated enough for years) to an otherwise great match would take away from the match? Because as I perceived it, that's all Jason was suggesting. He seems to enjoy the story, but he also wants to see some flash.

On topic, I am a huge fan of Orton, and while I haven't seen as much of Tyler Black/Seth Rollins work, I'd venture to say that Orton was better when he was 25 than Tyler Black is today. They have slightly similar builds, but they're different types of wrestlers. It wouldn't make much sense to see Orton perform a shooting star press, is what I mean. He wrestles the same style of HHH, methodically and calculating with every attack. In that sense, I think he wrestles his own style better than Rollins wrestles his own. Orton is in a special class of technical wrestlers that very few will ever reach, and that's today. Barring injuries, I think Orton's best days are still ahead of him, and he might end up being WWE's Bret Hart of this generation.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

I could be wrong here, but I think you're misunderstanding Jason's posts. As I understand it, he agrees that story-telling is important in a match. He might not place as much importance on it than you, but it seems like he wants to see wrestlers doing everything that you are saying the best stars have done, but he wants to see extra athleticism in addition to that. Do you think adding spots or flips from stars who can perform them (aka: not Mark Henry, who I agree was not appreciated enough for years) to an otherwise great match would take away from the match? Because as I perceived it, that's all Jason was suggesting. He seems to enjoy the story, but he also wants to see some flash.

On topic, I am a huge fan of Orton, and while I haven't seen as much of Tyler Black/Seth Rollins work, I'd venture to say that Orton was better when he was 25 than Tyler Black is today. They have slightly similar builds, but they're different types of wrestlers. It wouldn't make much sense to see Orton perform a shooting star press, is what I mean. He wrestles the same style of HHH, methodically and calculating with every attack. In that sense, I think he wrestles his own style better than Rollins wrestles his own. Orton is in a special class of technical wrestlers that very few will ever reach, and that's today. Barring injuries, I think Orton's best days are still ahead of him, and he might end up being WWE's Bret Hart of this generation.

Workrate a wrestler's use of "work" to develop a match. One's workrate is determined by his or her ability to "work" in an intelligent and productive manner. When used by critics, it is an analysis of the action in a match and the skill level exhibited. This word is mostly used by fans and remains unrecognized by most workers.[1

That's from a wiki page.

I fully understand what he's trying to say. He wants to say "I enjoy matches with lots of moves AND a story".

This is both a bad idea and practically non existant. For 1, adding flips and a faster pace to the match WILL hurt some matches. Orton's slower pace works, Orton should NOT being doing flippity shit or worker at a faster pace. Being methodical makes you look more like a badass, like you're calculating each move (which he is).

2, he doesn't actually have much of a grasp on in ring storytelling or doesn't really put any emphasis on it at all. Probably 99.999999% of matches with lots of moves and fast pace either have no story whatsoever, or the complete lack of selling makes the story of the match suck.

Guys having to add flash for him to be interested cements my opinion of his opinion (weird sentence I know). He would rather see a flip or a spot than a guy selling well. That's like my movie analogy, he needs explosions and shit to keep his attention. Indy guys tell basic and inconsistent stories. I thought Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards at Final battle was an "above average" match. The emotion and physicality were good, the story and selling were mediocre-average. I bet he LOOOOVED it.

Also, his thought that he demands more out of wrestlers is bogus. Like I've said millions of times, it's really not that hard for these guys to cram a bunch of moves in. It's a lot harder to get all the details right.

Your last paragraph basically backs everything I've said up. Orton wrestling methodically and calculating is BETTER and probably requires MORE EFFORT than Black doing a bunch of shit. Doing a lot of moves and having a fast pace and also telling a story and telling it effectively in the ring are almost mutually exclusive. Really only Shawn Michaels has ever been able to do both consistently and at a high level. Most guy sacrifice one or the other because it's really not believable that your leg is hurt when you're moving around on it for 20 minutes.

Here's another analogy. I'm trying to tell a story.

I woke up from a pleasant dream. With sleep still in my eye I stretched towards the alarm clock and pressed the button to turn it off.

I worke upa in the morining and then pressed the button on my alarm clock to turni tioff.

One I thought about everything I was going to say. Made sure I spelled everything to the best of my ability. Paid attention to detail to add a little to it. The other, I typed really fast and just kind of tried to get the point across.

In one match, let's say it's me vs a big man. I punch him a few times, he starts to stagger, I hit the ropes, hit him with a clothesline. he reels, I do it again, he reels a little more, I hit the ropes, he hits me with a clothesline, I take a violent back bump and sell it like I was hit by a bus. I don't hit another move for 5 minutes and mostly just sell the pain.

In another, same situation. I hit a punch/kick flurry, some stiff kicks to the chest, a dropkick, another dropkick, I hit the ropes, he hits me with a clothesline. I sell it. Within a few minutes, I'm trying to kick him again.

They tell the same story. In the first match, I do 2 moves, punch and clothesline. In the second, I do 4 moves and more moves. The first match is better. It's more dramatic, the crowd can digest it, and the selling is better. Go back and watch Tough Enough, Austin and Booker are ALWAYS saying "slow down, give the audience time". That kind of goes against the whole "workrate" idea. It's better to tell a story in the ring, and the story is better told when you slow down and let the audience take it in.


This is sort of my point. After this I'm probably going to be done and just going to accept that he either doesn't understand in ring story as much as he says or really doesn't care about it as much as he says and would rather see a spot than a sell. Which is fine, it just doesn't get you over in front of more than maybe 3,500 people and that's if you're the best at that style and it's a huge ROH show and it's in New York City. What he's saying is the equivalent of saying "I appreciate great fielding shortstops, but my favorite is Derek Jeter". It's almost a contradictory. No, it isn't impossible to mix a high workrate and storytelling. However, a vast majority of the time, story is sacrificed because selling is sacrificed. Citing ROH shows as examples doesn't make sense because they are probably 75% spot/workrate oriented and about 25% in ring story/psychology oriented. WWE is the opposite. Saying the WWE guys don't try because they don't do more spots also shows ignorance. I get what he's trying to say and what he wants me to believe he thinks. However, he clearly either doesn't truly grasp in ring storytelling (and I myself only have maybe a wrestling 101 level, the shit guys like Race and Funk will point out blow your mind) or he doesn't actually appreciate it as much as he says.

Rollins obviously has the potential. WWE sees it. They see him as an athlete with a great look who has a passion for wrestling. If he learns to slow things down and let the audience digest it and pays attention to the details, he could become an AMAZING face in peril.

That said, he's nowhere near as good of a face in peril (or heel) that Orton was at the same age.

 

[jason420]

Dude, relax! I've never said psychology is not important.

We actually agree on quite a bit. For example I agree that that dragongate match was a no-sell travesty. It was just a move-orgy for no reason than to put together as many moves in as short a time as possible. That's not pro wrestling.

You mentioned Joe/punk, danielson/strong, jacobs/whitmer...these were EXTREMELY physical matches/feuds. Yes, they had great psychology, storytelling, etc. But they were ALSO extremely physical and each man showed his mettle. I dig that. I like when it all comes together, story, characters, physicality. Undertaker/HHH from last year seems like a great example of everything coming together, I LOVED that match.

HHH bumping to the floor?! HOLY FUCKING SHIT! This match just went into a new gear. Shit just got serious. I love that ya know? I dont get "shit just got serious" from punch-kick-bodyslam.

I happened to love There Will Be Blood. But think, without the visuals of him falling down the well and climbing out with the broken leg, or the exploding oil derrick etc the movie would have been less. This is what I'm saying. Without the visual, a vital dimension of movie storytelling, the movie would have been less. Its much the same with pro wrestling and physicality, or WORKRATE (Lol!).

I'm not defending dragongate matches, I just saying I love when a match gets truly physical, when we see what these guys are made of. I don't get that from WWE (except once a year when they get off their asses and put on an entertaining show) and that's why they don't get my money.

Also, I've never seen a transformers movie.

 

[cmedge]

How can people go out on a limb to predict where Seth Rollins career will be? Did any of us know when Mark Henry was impregnating Mae Young that a decade and a half later he will be on top of the world as a credible World Champion? I personally have never watched ROH a day in my life until this Monday (Found a channel that it was on). But I'm expecting to be impressed with Seth Rollins from what I hear about him. I've learned that ROH guys are really good for example CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Desmond Wolfe and Austin Aries. So I'm expecting to be impressed but who knows? He might be a jobber or he might be the very best. We just have to wait and see.

 

[Its_A_Snake!]

How can people go out on a limb to predict where Seth Rollins career will be? Did any of us know when Mark Henry was impregnating Mae Young that a decade and a half later he will be on top of the world as a credible World Champion? I personally have never watched ROH a day in my life until this Monday (Found a channel that it was on). But I'm expecting to be impressed with Seth Rollins from what I hear about him. I've learned that ROH guys are really good for example CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Desmond Wolfe and Austin Aries. So I'm expecting to be impressed but who knows? He might be a jobber or he might be the very best. We just have to wait and see.

Personally, I think Rollins is overrated and that most people in the IWC ride his cock and put this guy on a pedestal. I agree with everything you said. He may be turned into the next Brooklyn Brawler or Barry Horowitz for god sake. Or they may even jabronifi him, stick him a plain leotard and stick him on NXT for a month, job him out then fire him. Braden Walker anyone? he hasnt even made his debut yet. I maybe wrong and he maybe then next Shawn Michaels or whatever. But until then, just sit back and see what happens.

And to compare him at this stage of his career against Orton in 2003 is RIDICULOUS

 

[Remix]

He's basically Justin Gabriel with more intensity and a better look.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread apart from this, which is entirely wrong. Gabriel has a better look in my opinion, especially considering the fact that he's rediculously good looking was the basis of his gimmick for years. But that sort of thing is subjective.

However, in the ring, Gabriel isn't that much like Seth Rollins at all beyond the fact that they both do high flying moves. For instance, Justin Gabriel actually sells longterm and changes up his offence as it suits the match and his current character. However as of right now he's using high flying as a crutch which pisses me off, frankly because he's better than that.

And onto Seth Rollins. I think he's honest to god terrible. On offence he has a tendancy to do utterly stupid moves for little to no reason, has focused on a body part of his opponent's a grand total of once (and even that was at a recent taping), sells for about as long as it takes him to get back on offence (at which point he'll forget about it) and has to be led by the nose to have a good match. His weaknesses in the ring have been well hidden in FCW because he's been working with guys like Richie Steamboat and Rick Victor (both capable in ring guys) in long matches since he got there. the second he got in the ring with someone who wasn't capable of doing that (Dean Ambrose) he exposed himself as the hack that he truely is.

EDIT: So no, he's not better than Randy Orton, circa 2003.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Originally Posted by Kotre Ibushimix

I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread apart from this, which is entirely wrong. Gabriel has a better look in my opinion, especially considering the fact that he's rediculously good looking was the basis of his gimmick for years. But that sort of thing is subjective.

However, in the ring, Gabriel isn't that much like Seth Rollins at all beyond the fact that they both do high flying moves. For instance, Justin Gabriel actually sells longterm and changes up his offence as it suits the match and his current character. However as of right now he's using high flying as a crutch which pisses me off, frankly because he's better than that.

And onto Seth Rollins. I think he's honest to god terrible. On offence he has a tendancy to do utterly stupid moves for little to no reason, has focused on a body part of his opponent's a grand total of once (and even that was at a recent taping), sells for about as long as it takes him to get back on offence (at which point he'll forget about it) and has to be led by the nose to have a good match. His weaknesses in the ring have been well hidden in FCW because he's been working with guys like Richie Steamboat and Rick Victor (both capable in ring guys) in long matches since he got there. the second he got in the ring with someone who wasn't capable of doing that (Dean Ambrose) he exposed himself as the hack that he truely is.

EDIT: So no, he's not better than Randy Orton, circa 2003.

Gabriel looks like a young, slender homosexual with a clean shaven body. Pro wrestling fans don't like that. He's not sexy, maybe if you're Japanese, but the american, especially the blue collar american view of sexuality is definately NOT Justin Gabriel. Gabriel COULD have a better look, but his low cut, feminin trunks and doofy haircut pretty much kill it. If he were a heel, it'd work.

If he can sell a bodypart long term, he's definately better than Rollins (as I'd last seen him). Which is probably why Gabriel is on TV and Rollins isn't.


I agree with most of what you said in the second to last paragraph. Rollins is basically like a toolbox. By itself, pretty useless. In the hands of someone not an expert, pretty uselss. However, in the hands of a master craftsman, pretty awesome things can be made. Rollins is a pretty good athlete with a pretty good look. He'll need to be carried on the mic and in the ring though.

shelton benjamin is another guy that he reminds me of really.

I think this thread has turned into a "how good is Seth Rollins" thread, which is probably better than "is he better than Orton?"

BTW, I'm not homophobic, I hate Rick santorum. I'm just saying that Gabriel probably is attractive mostly to peope/cultures who are more okay with femininity in their men. Blue collar americans aren't really like that, they like their men to look like randy orton or tom sellick. In fact, I google search "Justin Gabriel is..." and the first one is "gay". Your search reflects people in your area of the country. So in middle america (bread and butter for blue collar america) they think he's gay.






delete my last post, it's not letting me edit it.

 

[Remix]

Gabriel looks like a twink. Pro wrestling fans don't like that. He's not sexy, maybe if you're Japanese, but the american, especially the blue collar american view of sexuality is definately NOT Justin Gabriel. Gabriel COULD have a better look, but his fruity trunks and doofy haircut pretty much kill it. If he were a heel, it'd work.

Granted he's not what wrestling's core audience would consider attractive, but considering that this guy:

Has been voted the sexiest man alive, he kind of does have a good look. But then this is the difference between these guys having a good look:

and these guys:

Different things appeal to different audiences. Just because Gabriel's look doesn't appeal to the core fanbase, it does appeal to others (such as the teenage daughters/sisters of wrestling fans). He might never have the mainstream marketability of John Cena or Randy Orton, but then Gabriel's not ever going to be in a position for that to matter. He's simply not a main event level performer. He might be put in a few main events here and there to make sure that a mediocre performer doesn't stink up the joint if he sticks around, maybe even get a transitional world title reign (though that is unlikely) but he lacks the charisma to ever be "the guy".

He could also work as a heel. As he showed in Nexus and the Corre, he can wrestle like a heel and his South African persona pretty much was a heel gimmick (even though he'd get cheered for bragging about how he's got "the style, the smile, a supermodel girlfriend, a fancy sports car and a house on the golfcourse"). But that's a discussion for a different time. As for the gay thing, yeah he's not. The guy's fucked Kelly Kelly and said his favorite food is "Brunettes".

If he can sell a bodypart long term, he's definately better than Rollins (as I'd last seen him). Which is probably why Gabriel is on TV and Rollins isn't.

You haven't missed much development out of Rollins. He hasn't changed. At all. He'll sell when he's getting a bodypart worked over, but as soon as he's on offence he stops. OTOH Gabriel will sell a limb while on offense.

Technically, Rollins is on TV too. It's just that channel is only available to those with Brighthouse cable. I'd recommend you to start watching FCW btw. The roster's pretty fucking stacked at the moment.

I agree with most of what you said in the second to last paragraph. Rollins is basically like a toolbox. By itself, pretty useless. In the hands of someone not an expert, pretty useless. However, in the hands of a master craftsman, pretty awesome things can be made. Rollins is a pretty good athlete with a pretty good look. He'll need to be carried on the mic and in the ring though.

I'd say he's more like a chainsaw. By itself, useless and a bit dangerous. In the hands of a most people, it can do the job with a few difficulties or just down right stupid. In the hands of an expert it can make some pretty awesome things.

shelton benjamin is another guy that he reminds me of really.

That's way more damning than anything else I could have said about him. I do find it funny that there are divas in FCW that have shown more personality and growth than Seth Rollins though.

I think this thread has turned into a "how good is Seth Rollins" thread, which is probably better than "is he better than Orton?"

Well at least the latter can actually generate something resembling discussion, since different people like different things. The answer to the latter question is "No. Stop being so stupid." That's not something that can be argued. That's just the truth.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Granted he's not what wrestling's core audience would consider attractive, but considering that this guy:

Has been voted the sexiest man alive, he kind of does have a good look. But then this is the difference between these guys having a good look:

and these guys:

Different things appeal to different audiences. Just because Gabriel's look doesn't appeal to the core fanbase, it does appeal to others (such as the teenage daughters/sisters of wrestling fans). He might never have the mainstream marketability of John Cena or Randy Orton, but then Gabriel's not ever going to be in a position for that to matter. He's simply not a main event level performer. He might be put in a few main events here and there to make sure that a mediocre performer doesn't stink up the joint if he sticks around, maybe even get a transitional world title reign (though that is unlikely) but he lacks the charisma to ever be "the guy".

He could also work as a heel. As he showed in Nexus and the Corre, he can wrestle like a heel and his South African persona pretty much was a heel gimmick (even though he'd get cheered for bragging about how he's got "the style, the smile, a supermodel girlfriend, a fancy sports car and a house on the golfcourse"). But that's a discussion for a different time. As for the gay thing, yeah he's not. The guy's fucked Kelly Kelly and said his favorite food is "Brunettes".



You haven't missed much development out of Rollins. He hasn't changed. At all. He'll sell when he's getting a bodypart worked over, but as soon as he's on offence he stops. OTOH Gabriel will sell a limb while on offense.

Technically, Rollins is on TV too. It's just that channel is only available to those with Brighthouse cable. I'd recommend you to start watching FCW btw. The roster's pretty fucking stacked at the moment.



I'd say he's more like a chainsaw. By itself, useless and a bit dangerous. In the hands of a most people, it can do the job with a few difficulties or just down right stupid. In the hands of an expert it can make some pretty awesome things.



That's way more damning than anything else I could have said about him. I do find it funny that there are divas in FCW that have shown more personality and growth than Seth Rollins though.



Well at least the latter can actually generate something resembling discussion, since different people like different things. The answer to the latter question is "No. Stop being so stupid." That's not something that can be argued. That's just the truth.

I don't think he's gay, I just know that the typical rasslin fan probably thinks he is. He should run with it. Wrestling fans are closer to NASCAR fans, Jeff Gordon had a supermodel wife, they STILL had a "Jeff Gordon's gay" song. Seriously.

You're right though, little teenage girls probably think he's attractive. It's interesting to see the generational/cultural differences in what's seen as sexy. Wanna see something that'll blow your mind, google "Yu Darvish underwear ad". In japan, that's considered sexy, in the US, that's considered stupid. Then again, more and more a feminin guy is seen as attractive.

I don't think Kelly kelly is attractive. She's all smoke and mirrors. No ass, no tits, hair extensions, a push up bra, too much makeup, and scrawny shapeless legs. That said, the whole "skinny clean" look isn't me. Guys with that look go for girls like KK.

I watch FCW every once in a while. I just don't have much time with school and work right now. My problem with Rollins is my problem with Aries, Shelley, and the much MUCH more flawed Dragon Gate guys and stupid fuckin Teddy Hart (who doesn't go for a pin after a Canadian Destroyer and instead picks the guy up for a powerbomb lungblower and STILL doesn't go for a pin). It's that yea, awesome athlete, cool moves, but that's it. Literally nothing else going on. At least Aries and Shelley can cut promos and Hart can do something so monumentally stupid that you just can't stop watching.

Continuing your last point, is there anyway this can be moved to a "Seth Rollins future" or something thread? I feel like this will be a running thing since he should be one of the post-Mania call ups.