Seth Rollins Discussion

[C.Msupporter]

If you've been Lucky enough to see Seth Rollins Live, or watched any of his FCW matches, then you've likely been amazed by how much talnt he has. He is one of the top Indy Performers in the world, and he's only 25.

There's somebody else I remember, who was bragging about acomplishing this much at this age, Randy Orton. Obviously Orton was in a much higher positon in WWE at 25 than Rollins is, but factor in that Orton Never competed on the indy scene, and that he has his father's and grandfather's Legacies that helped get his foot in the door.

In my Opinion, in terms of Ring Ability and Natural Talent, Rollins wins hands down.

 

[David]

While I do agree that Seth Rollins is awesome and a joy to watch in the ring, and the fact that the last name Orton got Randy in the door quicker. I have to respectfully disagree with the natural talent and ring ability. Never in my life have I seen anyone with more natural talent then Randy Orton. While he doesn't show it now because he's become a 1 dimensional character, he has much more raw natural talent then Seth Rollins does at a younger age, and thats without the indy scene.

 

[midgensa]

I love Rollins ... and think he has the talent and all ... but I don't know if he is a Randy Orton type.

With Vince clearly showing more love to the Indy folks (Danielson and Punk rising through the ranks) then Rollins could make a solid run ... but Orton status is not easy to attain.

Rollins is considerably smaller than Orton (30 pounds and 3 inches or so) and he has never impressed me on the stick like Orton has (though Orton is getting a little stale ... but still better than he often gets credit for).

I like Rollins alot and think he might be a legit Main Eventer at some point. But I don't know if he will be a legit show carrier.

 

[Daniel]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... okay, this could go on for a while.

At the age of 25, Randy Orton had just come out of the era-defining group that was Evolution. He also had a world title under his belt, which was, y'know, impressive. Rollins, on the other hand, is still in FCW putting on only okay matches. There's a reason for this difference: Orton was better than Rollins is now.

Now, you could say that nepotism and politics got Orton into his rather impressive position, but you'd be wrong. Sure, the name helped (even if it is only Cowboy Bob Orton). But it means nothing if the talent isn't there (see Sim Snuka). Look, if you're unaware of the story of Evolution, it goes a bit like this. Triple H and Ric Flair were told to find a couple of new stars for a Four Horsemen-like group. After reviewing the entire roster, they settled on Orton and Batista. Two all-time greats fucking said "these guys are good enough to hang with us and then go on to do great things". If that isn't proof that young Orton had talent, I don't know what is.

 

[H33LTurn]

Yeah lets just start making threads about who we think is better than Randy Orton. Come on, seriously, Randy Orton gets the most ******ed IWC heat of all. Orton didnt need to work in the indys to come into the WWE. Contrary to popular belief on this site, anyone who has his signts set on the WWE is looking to minimize his time in the indy scene. Who cares who Orton's daddy was, where he trained, and what some guy who hasnt even had a WWE TV (RAW & SD) match has accomplished. Thats like saying Jeff Jarrett is a better owner than Vince McMahon because Vince bought the company from his dad after it was already destined for success while Jeff had to build up TNA to stand on its own legs by himself.

 

[JJ15776]

You could fill up this entire message board with threads about people who were or are better than Orton. It's not a small group of people. Of course Seth Rollins is better than him.

 

[Headman]

Thread recap. The OP likes Seth Rollins better than Randy Orton. That's very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

This is going to really piss off the indy fans, but I don't see much of a future for Rollins in the WWE. There's nothing about his look or promos that screams WWE superstar. Unless of course we're talking about the show WWE Superstars. I'm sure he'll be spending a great deal of time there once called up. (Is that even a show anymore?) Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy indy wrestling. I liked Tyler Black in ROH, but I'm not really interested at all in seeing him in the WWE. As for being where Orton was, no. By 25 I think Orton was already a more complete package than Rollins is now or may ever be.

 

[jason420]

I've seen every match Tyler Black ever wrestled in ROH, including many live performances, and every major match Orton has wrestled for WWE. On the mic, Tylers got a long way to go to catch up to Orton (though Ortons got lightyears to go before being Rock-good on the mic). But in terms of in-ring ability, Black could wrestle circles around Orton.

Really the only guys who could the same pace in-ring with Tyler on the current WWE roster are all pretty much former ROH guys with the exception of maybe Kofi or Ziggler (its hard to tell wether or not these two could hang with Tyler because WWE neuters their talent before we get to see what they're actually capable of).

The only instance I can remember of Orton showing his mettle was against Cactus Jack. He got put through the wringer in that one and gained a lot of respect from me. Since then tho its just been punch-kick-bodyslam-finisher snore-fest.

 

[jason420]

Thread recap. The OP likes Seth Rollins better than Randy Orton. That's very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

This is going to really piss off the indy fans, but I don't see much of a future for Rollins in the WWE. There's nothing about his look or promos that screams WWE superstar. Unless of course we're talking about the show WWE Superstars. I'm sure he'll be spending a great deal of time there once called up. (Is that even a show anymore?) Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy indy wrestling. I liked Tyler Black in ROH, but I'm not really interested at all in seeing him in the WWE. As for being where Orton was, no. By 25 I think Orton was already a more complete package than Rollins is now or may ever be.

Really? That's interesting cuz I always thought Claudio, with his "very-european" gimmick, chris hero, and Tyler would fit really well into the WWE.

I see him being the new, updated version of Edge. He's got the look and the ring talent. If he works on his promos I totally think he could make a good go at WWE.

On a sidenote, the ROH guys you will never see in WWE are Roderick Strong and Davey Richards. No chance.

 

[dansaint]

while i don't think Rollins will ever be in the spot Orton is...I think Rollins could be a nice mid card/semi main event guy. Secondary title (IC Belt) and if he improves his mic ability...he has a shot to move up.

He does have one plus on his side...apparently HHH is a big fan of his and sees him as a legit babyface star.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Wasn't a fan of Black in ROH. Pretty much had to be lead through a match to tell a story and wasn't the best at selling. Then again, when Austin Aries is the guy who is seen as a "company leader" of course you aren't going to learn to sell long term and incorporate it into the story of the match.

Black/Rollins can't cut a promo.

He's basically Justin Gabriel with more intensity and a better look. He's very athletic and sorta bigish (sorta not, he's legitimately only 10 pounds heavier and an inch taller than me in real life, I'm 5'11" 190, so he's not that big).

Orton on the other hand, is the complete package. Net ******s think orton sucks in the ring because he's methodical (makes sense with his character), sells everything, has a 5 move go home sequence, and tells a story in the ring. Net ******s think Orton sucks on the mic because he speak deliberately (makes sense with his character) and everything means something.

Basically the net hates Orton because he's constantly in character, is good looking, is over, and is a good babyface. The net loves Black because he can do flips and a lot of moves and moves fast and was in ROH.

I agree that Davey richards will never be in WWE. Nor should he be. Not selling a goddamn thing is a pretty big deal. In fact, there's a joke I heard about Richards. "You hear about Davey Richards opening up a video store? Yea, too bad, already went out of business, just didn't sell anything".

Chris Hero should become the biggest star, maybe even bigger than Punk. Hero can work the mic, and work any audience. Hero is smart enough to adapt his character, mic, and in ring work to the audience he's in front of. the only think Hero lacks is a look, which I think he kinda has.


Back to Rollins, getting off topic here, he's NOT as good as Orton was at pretty much any point in time. It's a shame. I wish more Jimmy Jacobs would have rubbed off on Rollins.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

OK fine, point taken. But can we all agree that he's better than Cena is, was and ever will be

He can work a non-homogenous audience to the point that 100% of them legitimately feel hatred/love and voice it? He can be the company man or be edgy and cut an attitude era-esque promo at will? He can tell a better story in the ring with 5 moves than most can with 50?

Your comment is laughable. When harley race, ric flair, rvd, cm punk, and samoa joe say that Cena is good in the ring, and you disagree, you lose credibility. When Bryan Alvarez, the head smark himself, back in like 2008, TWO THOUSAND AND FUCKING EIGHT, says that if you don't think Cena is a good wrestler, you lose crediblity, then you basically make yourself look like a wannabe hipster net nut hugging smark douchebag.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

I've seen every match Tyler Black ever wrestled in ROH, including many live performances, and every major match Orton has wrestled for WWE. On the mic, Tylers got a long way to go to catch up to Orton (though Ortons got lightyears to go before being Rock-good on the mic). But in terms of in-ring ability, Black could wrestle circles around Orton.

Really the only guys who could the same pace in-ring with Tyler on the current WWE roster are all pretty much former ROH guys with the exception of maybe Kofi or Ziggler (its hard to tell wether or not these two could hang with Tyler because WWE neuters their talent before we get to see what they're actually capable of).

The only instance I can remember of Orton showing his mettle was against Cactus Jack. He got put through the wringer in that one and gained a lot of respect from me. Since then tho its just been punch-kick-bodyslam-finisher snore-fest.

lol what? because of FLIPZ Black is better in the ring? Black fuckin sucks at selling ANYTHING long term and doesn't tell coherant stories in the ring. Ever wonder why Black's best stuff was against Dragon? ever wonder why Aries' best stuff was against Dragon/Jimmy Jacobs?

Pro wrestling isn't about moves and flips, no one gives a shit. It's about telling stories. You are dumb if you think that all Orton's matches are just "punch-kick-bodyslam-finisher". That's like saying There Will Be Blood is nothing but a guy talking about oil and killing a preacher. Yea, in an absolute sense, that's all it is. However, it's the STORY.

You need to watch some secrets of the ring with Raven or Al Snow or go to an indy show and talk to some old vets about ring psychology, selling, and story telling in the ring. Get out of your annoying ass MOVEZ!!!!! stage. Probably the worst state we go through as net wrestling fans is thinking that MOVEZ AND FLIPZ make you good at wrestling.

 

[jason420]

lol what? because of FLIPZ Black is better in the ring? Black fuckin sucks at selling ANYTHING long term and doesn't tell coherant stories in the ring. Ever wonder why Black's best stuff was against Dragon? ever wonder why Aries' best stuff was against Dragon/Jimmy Jacobs?

Pro wrestling isn't about moves and flips, no one gives a shit. It's about telling stories. You are dumb if you think that all Orton's matches are just "punch-kick-bodyslam-finisher". That's like saying There Will Be Blood is nothing but a guy talking about oil and killing a preacher. Yea, in an absolute sense, that's all it is. However, it's the STORY.

You need to watch some secrets of the ring with Raven or Al Snow or go to an indy show and talk to some old vets about ring psychology, selling, and story telling in the ring. Get out of your annoying ass MOVEZ!!!!! stage. Probably the worst state we go through as net wrestling fans is thinking that MOVEZ AND FLIPZ make you good at wrestling.

I think his best stuff in ROH was his tag run with the TAOF and chasing Nigel's title. I agree he can work on his promos but I think he sells fine. His work with Nigel proves it. He sold a shoulder injury for Nigel's new finisher throughout their entire program.

Reading Rainbow was about "telling stories". Professional Wrestling is about telling stories AND delivering in the ring. They can talk all they want but when all they do is punch-kick-bodyslam they are simply talking and not delivering.

Maybe you buy PPVs where the wrestlers just phone in their performances but I personally expect more than what Cena or Orton deliver (bump free 50$ ppvs). And maybe you find their "stories" compelling...I do not. I find WWE's "stories" are about as compelling and original as the scripts to their movies.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

I think his best stuff in ROH was his tag run with the TAOF and chasing Nigel's title. I agree he can work on his promos but I think he sells fine. His work with Nigel proves it. He sold a shoulder injury for Nigel's new finisher throughout their entire program.

Reading Rainbow was about "telling stories". Professional Wrestling is about telling stories AND delivering in the ring. They can talk all they want but when all they do is punch-kick-bodyslam they are simply talking and not delivering.

Maybe you buy PPVs where the wrestlers just phone in their performances but I personally expect more than what Cena or Orton deliver (bump free 50$ ppvs). And maybe you find their "stories" compelling...I do not. I find WWE's "stories" are about as compelling and original as the scripts to their movies.

You don't get it. Because the whole "telling stories in the ring" thing COMPLETELY went over your head, I know you have no idea what it means to tell a story in the ring.

Here is an example: Austin Aries vs Alex Shelley
Shelley puts Aries in several torture holds on the legs, Aries gets out, hits 3 running dropkicks, then runs up the top turnbuckle and hits a dive, never sells the leg again, they do their normal finishing stretch with flips and highspots and finish counters, pretty sure Aries won with a roll up.

Cena vs Mysterio
Cena tries to man handle Mysterio. Mysterio keeps him at a distance with leg kicks. Cena sells the leg kicks and avoids them like the plague. Mysterio frustrates Cena with flying around the ring until he's caught.

One match the IWC whipped out their dick and jerked off to, the other they didn't appreciate. The one the IWC loved did a piss poor job at telling a story and those two guys are lucky to draw 2,000 fans to watch them. The one that told a story was in front of 10,000 people and both guys are multi-millionaires.


It does NOT matter how many moves you do. It matters the story you tell. By that I do not mean "I hate you because you aren't as good as me and your dad was an alcoholic".

If you prefer, I'll give you another example of storytelling from ROH.

Danielson vs Aries Testing the Limit
Danielson knows the match is 2/3 falls, so he feels aries out, works the arm, then the leg, then the neck (fuckin brilliant on Danielson, knowing Aries doesn't sell shit more than 5 minutes anyways). After a while, Danielson gets concussed and basically his character forgets his strategy. Aries works the head. Danielson is despirately trying to hit anything he can. Aries pretty much only has to sell fatigue. Aries eventually outlasts Danielson. Typically, had Danielson had his wits, he would have picked apart Aries, but because of the "injury" he didn't.

Another story.
Danielson vs KENTA GBHVNII
Danielson has a bad arm. KENTA has been killing bitches in ROH with the GTS. KENTA counters everything Danielson has, if not immediately with a kick to the face, then a kick to the arm. Danielson hits an AJ Styles sequence to gain the advantage(KENTA had never faced Styles, so he wouldn't have had it scouted or seen it before). . As the match wears on, KENTA hits Danielson with the GTS, but because he had been working the bum arm and not the head like he usually does, Danielson has enough smarts to grab the ropes. Eventually, through sheer grit and determination, Danielson gets KENTA to tap with cattle mutilation.


See, THOSE are stories in the ring. Not just a bunch of fancy looking moves done really fast. Tyler Black/Seth Rollins is NOT very good at telling a story in the ring. If he does, his stories have plot holes (inconsistent selling). Next time you watch Orton wrestle, don't just say "oh it's just punches, kicks, and slams and then the five moves of doom" ask "why?" You'll find that EVERTHING Orton does has a purpose and makes sense. then look at his selling, his selling is perfect.

Also, as someone who has taken a bump, I don't care if a guy takes 20 head drops or not. If you can tell a great in ring story, good job. Colt Cabana rarely bumps, but he's fuckin awesome. Bumping and doing moves don't make the match better. Also, Orton's RKO on the floor on SD probably hurt quite a bit. Cena, with a surgically repaired neck, is literally risking his life everytime he takes a high angle bump.

 

[akrassikauda]

He can work a non-homogenous audience to the point that 100% of them legitimately feel hatred/love and voice it? He can be the company man or be edgy and cut an attitude era-esque promo at will? He can tell a better story in the ring with 5 moves than most can with 50?

Your comment is laughable. When harley race, ric flair, rvd, cm punk, and samoa joe say that Cena is good in the ring, and you disagree, you lose credibility. When Bryan Alvarez, the head smark himself, back in like 2008, TWO THOUSAND AND FUCKING EIGHT, says that if you don't think Cena is a good wrestler, you lose crediblity, then you basically make yourself look like a wannabe hipster net nut hugging smark douchebag.

Standing ovation. Remember when Foley reminded the people uhm sheeple that he caught flack for saying that they needed to appreciate his in ring work and Foley got booed. He was right,there's more to wrestling than flips and suicide dives you have to tell the story. Cena vs RVD & Cena vs Punk "You can't wrestle" a few moves later he shuts them up. Every time he walks into a hostile arena he tells a story that these people don't phase me and I can wrestle and no matter what happens at the end I can stand in the face of adversity and your internet heroes need help to beat me.

Undertaker vs HBK & HHH 2.
HBK knows he hit Taker with everything he had and it's not enough you can see the emotion on his face what does he do next, finish me. Last year HBK tells HHH you can't beat him. Chair shot after chair shot, "stay down,die" a tombstone to the amazement of every one watching doesn't even work and you can see HHH tell that story with his emotions that Shawn was right, it's desperation time it's sledgehammer time oh wait Hells gate match over.

That's what these indy smarks don't get, just because a guy can do spots does not equal good wrestling. You have to captivate the audience you have to be a good story teller. The worse part is when these idiots chant "this is wrestling" for every spot. Eddie vs Angle that was wrestling, the look on Angles face at the end when he was outsmarted is priceless in defeat he tells the story. Seth Rollins needs help in that department before anyone in their right mind can say he's better than Orton who's done it for years and on the biggest stage. Most of these indy guys need to learn that and those who can't or are to lazy and won't, lash out and cry you want sports entertainment. You damn right I want to be entertained, tell a good in ring story that's what I paid my money for the best of the best know how to do it.

Can't wait for Punk vs Jericho so people uhm sheeple will see how it's done. Then they can chant "this is wrestling"

 

[Its_A_Snake!]

He can work a non-homogenous audience to the point that 100% of them legitimately feel hatred/love and voice it? He can be the company man or be edgy and cut an attitude era-esque promo at will? He can tell a better story in the ring with 5 moves than most can with 50?

Your comment is laughable. When harley race, ric flair, rvd, cm punk, and samoa joe say that Cena is good in the ring, and you disagree, you lose credibility. When Bryan Alvarez, the head smark himself, back in like 2008, TWO THOUSAND AND FUCKING EIGHT, says that if you don't think Cena is a good wrestler, you lose crediblity, then you basically make yourself look like a wannabe hipster net nut hugging smark douchebag.

MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY

Sure, I'm not a big Cena fan. But he is THE best worker in the business. No matter if you love or hate him. You still pay money to watch him beat someone up or you pay money to watch him get beat up. Therefore he's working you into buying ticket's. Love him or hate him, he is a money making machine and the face of the WWE, for good reason.




And staying on topic, Rollins is nowhere near where Orton was. Orton already won a World title, Rollins is still in FCW.. to DEVELOP

 

[jason420]

You don't get it. Because the whole "telling stories in the ring" thing COMPLETELY went over your head, I know you have no idea what it means to tell a story in the ring.

Here is an example: Austin Aries vs Alex Shelley
Shelley puts Aries in several torture holds on the legs, Aries gets out, hits 3 running dropkicks, then runs up the top turnbuckle and hits a dive, never sells the leg again, they do their normal finishing stretch with flips and highspots and finish counters, pretty sure Aries won with a roll up.

Cena vs Mysterio
Cena tries to man handle Mysterio. Mysterio keeps him at a distance with leg kicks. Cena sells the leg kicks and avoids them like the plague. Mysterio frustrates Cena with flying around the ring until he's caught.

One match the IWC whipped out their dick and jerked off to, the other they didn't appreciate. The one the IWC loved did a piss poor job at telling a story and those two guys are lucky to draw 2,000 fans to watch them. The one that told a story was in front of 10,000 people and both guys are multi-millionaires.


It does NOT matter how many moves you do. It matters the story you tell. By that I do not mean "I hate you because you aren't as good as me and your dad was an alcoholic".

If you prefer, I'll give you another example of storytelling from ROH.

Danielson vs Aries Testing the Limit
Danielson knows the match is 2/3 falls, so he feels aries out, works the arm, then the leg, then the neck (fuckin brilliant on Danielson, knowing Aries doesn't sell shit more than 5 minutes anyways). After a while, Danielson gets concussed and basically his character forgets his strategy. Aries works the head. Danielson is despirately trying to hit anything he can. Aries pretty much only has to sell fatigue. Aries eventually outlasts Danielson. Typically, had Danielson had his wits, he would have picked apart Aries, but because of the "injury" he didn't.

Another story.
Danielson vs KENTA GBHVNII
Danielson has a bad arm. KENTA has been killing bitches in ROH with the GTS. KENTA counters everything Danielson has, if not immediately with a kick to the face, then a kick to the arm. Danielson hits an AJ Styles sequence to gain the advantage(KENTA had never faced Styles, so he wouldn't have had it scouted or seen it before). . As the match wears on, KENTA hits Danielson with the GTS, but because he had been working the bum arm and not the head like he usually does, Danielson has enough smarts to grab the ropes. Eventually, through sheer grit and determination, Danielson gets KENTA to tap with cattle mutilation.


See, THOSE are stories in the ring. Not just a bunch of fancy looking moves done really fast. Tyler Black/Seth Rollins is NOT very good at telling a story in the ring. If he does, his stories have plot holes (inconsistent selling). Next time you watch Orton wrestle, don't just say "oh it's just punches, kicks, and slams and then the five moves of doom" ask "why?" You'll find that EVERTHING Orton does has a purpose and makes sense. then look at his selling, his selling is perfect.

Also, as someone who has taken a bump, I don't care if a guy takes 20 head drops or not. If you can tell a great in ring story, good job. Colt Cabana rarely bumps, but he's fuckin awesome. Bumping and doing moves don't make the match better. Also, Orton's RKO on the floor on SD probably hurt quite a bit. Cena, with a surgically repaired neck, is literally risking his life everytime he takes a high angle bump.

Lol thank you for all that effort. If I saw as much effort in a WWE ring as you put in that post they might get a PPV buy from me.

I know what your saying man. I appreciate a good "in-ring" story too, that's why I pointed out Black's matches with McGuiness. No-selling and illogical moves, I agree, are match-killers, but I just don't see that in Black. Not nearly as much as Aries or others anyway.

That being said, the wrestlers who can do the "FLIPZ" AND put on great matches, like Black, are obviously more entertaining than the guys who do punch-kick-bodyslam and tell the same story. I want to be impressed by their physical prowess AS WELL as their ability to tell a story. Their prowess in fact, sells the story.

I expect my wrestlers to be great on the stick, engage in compelling storylines, and DELIVER in the ring. I watch ROH because they deliver all three. But if punch-kick-bodyslam stories do it for you, go ahead and plunk down 50$ for it. But as a fan, I expect more. They wont get my money for phone-it-in performances.

 

[lowkim]

If you watch his latest promo in FCW where he thanks the fans for their support you can see how Rollins' promos have improved so much especially in terms of not being too much of a corny face. And he's a great wrestler who's story telling has improved heaps since he started in FCW. He may not be at Ambrose's level but he's improved a lot since going into developmental, I think his in ring work is better than Randy Orton's at 25, and I think with a WWE schedule it'll move more towards what all the 'less is more' and old school style junkies prefer.

 

[c-trass]

seth rollins is over rated. theres a reason why he is still in fcw for over 2 years.

 

[Headman]

Really? That's interesting cuz I always thought Claudio, with his "very-european" gimmick, chris hero, and Tyler would fit really well into the WWE.

I see him being the new, updated version of Edge. He's got the look and the ring talent. If he works on his promos I totally think he could make a good go at WWE.

On a sidenote, the ROH guys you will never see in WWE are Roderick Strong and Davey Richards. No chance.

I think Claudio and Hero do have the look and the promos to transition well into the WWE. It's Black/Rollins who I was talking about. Not as is anyway. I'm pretty much in agreement with you on Strong and Richards, but I will note that the WWE's obsession with vanilla over the last decade would work to the benefit of those two.

 

[Kain40]

OK fine, point taken. But can we all agree that he's better than Cena is, was and ever will be

Wow. Are you an idiot? Your first point gets obliterated when you were probably so sure everyone would agree with you. Then you have the idiocy to try and turn it around to Cena because you think they're going to blindly hate the guy because it's the IWC, right? Well you failed on both points. Go away.

 

[IHW]

The true question is if Seth Rollins can take his talent to where Orton has. Until then, Orton will be 10 times better.

Yeah Seth is talented, but what can he do whit those talents? Can he reach the level Orton has?

Ask me this question again in 5 years.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Lol thank you for all that effort. If I saw as much effort in a WWE ring as you put in that post they might get a PPV buy from me.

I know what your saying man. I appreciate a good "in-ring" story too, that's why I pointed out Black's matches with McGuiness. No-selling and illogical moves, I agree, are match-killers, but I just don't see that in Black. Not nearly as much as Aries or others anyway.

That being said, the wrestlers who can do the "FLIPZ" AND put on great matches, like Black, are obviously more entertaining than the guys who do punch-kick-bodyslam and tell the same story. I want to be impressed by their physical prowess AS WELL as their ability to tell a story. Their prowess in fact, sells the story.

I expect my wrestlers to be great on the stick, engage in compelling storylines, and DELIVER in the ring. I watch ROH because they deliver all three. But if punch-kick-bodyslam stories do it for you, go ahead and plunk down 50$ for it. But as a fan, I expect more. They wont get my money for phone-it-in performances.

Yea you still don't get it.

Only doing 5 moves is NOT a lack of effort. In fact, the guy who I've seen over the last probably 10 years who has lacked effort the most is John Morrison. O, I know HE DOES FLIPS AND MOVEZ AND HIGHSPOTS. Yea, he does a lot and moves around a lot. However, there was ZERO learning and progression on his part. Instead of learning how to better portray his character, he learned a new flip.

The effort the WWE guys put in you don't see in matches and you have to be smarter to see. Sure, ROH guys do a bunch of spots and flips. Davey Richards is probably going to have dimentia when he gets old because of how many bumps he takes and kicks to the head. However, he's not trying. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but when you're supposed to be the top dog and you STILL don't sell or tell a story in the ring (or if you do it sucks and is some bastardized puro version), you aren't trying.

You literally don't understand in ring storytelling yet. You are in the "moves mark" phase of being a smark. You know it's not real, and you think you can gauge effort and who is working harder, but you really can't. None of us can really truly gauge effort. However, think about his. When you're naturally athletic and agile.....and that's how you wrestle, how hard are you REALLY trying?

No, a guy doing flips and moves doesn't sell the story. In fact, if Mark Henry started exchanging wristlocks, or if Cena started hitting hurricaranas, they would probably be less over because it makes no sense. Mark Henry and Big Show move slow for a purpose. They're huge, why move faster? Cena has a simple moveset because it fits his character, why the fuck would a guy who is supposed to be a Rocky Balboa type have a huge moveset? Speaking of which, that's a great example. If Rocky came out, super fit, super technical, no one would give a shit would they? That's the essence of Cena's character. By not being super coordinated, by not knowing every move in the book, by doing it all on heart and determination (and picking up some new tricks along the way), he is infinitely a better character than if he were the same guy who could also chain wrestle with the best. Not only THAT, but if I had a body like Cena's, I'm not chain wrestling. I'm punching your face inside-out and throwing you around.

ROH doesn't deliver on all three. You're dellusional. I've been an ROH fan since the beginning. If they're not careful, DGUSA is going to overtake them. ROH has some guys who can do flips, some guys who can talk, very few guys who can tell a story in the ring. Jimmy Jacobs and Kevin Steen are probably the most talented people on the roster.

Doing flips and moves isn't "delivering in the ring". NOT doing flips and moves isn't NOT delivering. Delivering is simply telling a story in the ring that people care about.

There is a youtube video (I think) of an old harley race vs jerry lawler match from like 1979 Memphis. Try to find it. The go broadway and the two of them maybe use 15 different moves (including punch/kick/headbutt). However, they told an in ring story that was incredible. They had the crowd believing that their hometown boy was walking out with the title and at the same time, Race never lost credibility as champion. THAT is delivering in the ring.

I have a favorite quote I use for occasions like this. It's from Raven "to an extent, we can all do all the moves, it's what you do with them that matters". In other words, who gives a fuck if so and so can chain wrestle and then do a tackle/dropdown/leapfrog spot to transition into a few hurricaranas and a 450. Most guys on the roster, if they tried and practiced, could do all that. The difference is, and this is from raven who knows more about wrestling than anyone on here, what do the moves mean. Cena telling a story with 5 moves isn't bad. The number of moves doesn't matter. If you're a moves mark and that's what impresses you then you won't like it. However, these guys aren't wrestling in front of just you, or a crowd that is like you. If that were the case, Alex Shelley would be the biggest star in the world.

Seth doesn't seem to be as talented at this as people think. The net people get on his nuts because he has a very typical indy skillset. think about the other indy guys who have made it to the WWE and then think of the two guys who have made it the furthest. CM Punk never really did highspots or a bunch of moves really fast, he was a great STORYTELLER primarily. Punk is the guy who went an hour with Samoa Joe and centered the match around a HEADLOCK. How the fuck do you get 1,000 ROH smarks to care about a HEADLOCK? You tell a great story with it. The other guy who has made it the furthest is Daniel Bryan. He is the guy who made people give a shit about a midcarder named Rodrick Strong for 54 minutes. Why? Because he told this incredible underdog story and sold the shit out of chops.

If a guy is known for spots, he's probably not going to last. No one gives a shit about Petey Williams anymore. People care about Punk, they care about Daniel Bryan. Which side Rollins ends up on is up to him.

 

[jason420]

Yea you still don't get it.

Only doing 5 moves is NOT a lack of effort. In fact, the guy who I've seen over the last probably 10 years who has lacked effort the most is John Morrison. O, I know HE DOES FLIPS AND MOVEZ AND HIGHSPOTS. Yea, he does a lot and moves around a lot. However, there was ZERO learning and progression on his part. Instead of learning how to better portray his character, he learned a new flip.

The effort the WWE guys put in you don't see in matches and you have to be smarter to see. Sure, ROH guys do a bunch of spots and flips. Davey Richards is probably going to have dimentia when he gets old because of how many bumps he takes and kicks to the head. However, he's not trying. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but when you're supposed to be the top dog and you STILL don't sell or tell a story in the ring (or if you do it sucks and is some bastardized puro version), you aren't trying.

You literally don't understand in ring storytelling yet. You are in the "moves mark" phase of being a smark. You know it's not real, and you think you can gauge effort and who is working harder, but you really can't. None of us can really truly gauge effort. However, think about his. When you're naturally athletic and agile.....and that's how you wrestle, how hard are you REALLY trying?

No, a guy doing flips and moves doesn't sell the story. In fact, if Mark Henry started exchanging wristlocks, or if Cena started hitting hurricaranas, they would probably be less over because it makes no sense. Mark Henry and Big Show move slow for a purpose. They're huge, why move faster? Cena has a simple moveset because it fits his character, why the fuck would a guy who is supposed to be a Rocky Balboa type have a huge moveset? Speaking of which, that's a great example. If Rocky came out, super fit, super technical, no one would give a shit would they? That's the essence of Cena's character. By not being super coordinated, by not knowing every move in the book, by doing it all on heart and determination (and picking up some new tricks along the way), he is infinitely a better character than if he were the same guy who could also chain wrestle with the best. Not only THAT, but if I had a body like Cena's, I'm not chain wrestling. I'm punching your face inside-out and throwing you around.

ROH doesn't deliver on all three. You're dellusional. I've been an ROH fan since the beginning. If they're not careful, DGUSA is going to overtake them. ROH has some guys who can do flips, some guys who can talk, very few guys who can tell a story in the ring. Jimmy Jacobs and Kevin Steen are probably the most talented people on the roster.

Doing flips and moves isn't "delivering in the ring". NOT doing flips and moves isn't NOT delivering. Delivering is simply telling a story in the ring that people care about.

There is a youtube video (I think) of an old harley race vs jerry lawler match from like 1979 Memphis. Try to find it. The go broadway and the two of them maybe use 15 different moves (including punch/kick/headbutt). However, they told an in ring story that was incredible. They had the crowd believing that their hometown boy was walking out with the title and at the same time, Race never lost credibility as champion. THAT is delivering in the ring.

I have a favorite quote I use for occasions like this. It's from Raven "to an extent, we can all do all the moves, it's what you do with them that matters". In other words, who gives a fuck if so and so can chain wrestle and then do a tackle/dropdown/leapfrog spot to transition into a few hurricaranas and a 450. Most guys on the roster, if they tried and practiced, could do all that. The difference is, and this is from raven who knows more about wrestling than anyone on here, what do the moves mean. Cena telling a story with 5 moves isn't bad. The number of moves doesn't matter. If you're a moves mark and that's what impresses you then you won't like it. However, these guys aren't wrestling in front of just you, or a crowd that is like you. If that were the case, Alex Shelley would be the biggest star in the world.

Seth doesn't seem to be as talented at this as people think. The net people get on his nuts because he has a very typical indy skillset. think about the other indy guys who have made it to the WWE and then think of the two guys who have made it the furthest. CM Punk never really did highspots or a bunch of moves really fast, he was a great STORYTELLER primarily. Punk is the guy who went an hour with Samoa Joe and centered the match around a HEADLOCK. How the fuck do you get 1,000 ROH smarks to care about a HEADLOCK? You tell a great story with it. The other guy who has made it the furthest is Daniel Bryan. He is the guy who made people give a shit about a midcarder named Rodrick Strong for 54 minutes. Why? Because he told this incredible underdog story and sold the shit out of chops.

If a guy is known for spots, he's probably not going to last. No one gives a shit about Petey Williams anymore. People care about Punk, they care about Daniel Bryan. Which side Rollins ends up on is up to him.

Dude, I get it. I know what your saying.

If all the physical prowess YOU require of your wrestlers is akin to a match from 1979 between men who were HALF the athletes we have today is all you need to plunk down 50$ than I am happy for you. You're an easy sell.

For me? I need a story, physical prowess, and over-the-top fun characters. I need to be IMPRESSED by what these guys can do. I won't lay down 50$ for punch-kick-headbutt no matter how good the "story" is. I'll fall asleep before the match is over and miss the end of the "story".

You bring up Steen and Jacobs and I agree that they are probably some of the best ROH has right now. But we both know that on top of telling great stories in the ring, they DELIVER physically too. If you watched their match from last saturday you know how physical it got and what an awesome story they are telling alongside Corino (another great storyteller). THIS is the type of match I will continue to lay down money for.

We obviously have different philosophies when it comes to wrestling.

For you it seems the story is the be-all end-all regardless of complete lack of workrate. Me? I need workrate. I won't pay for less. You can call me all the names in the world but at the end of the day I'm a paying fan just like you. I expect more from my wrestling companies than you do.