Screw HBK!!!

[LongHessa]

Yeah that's right. I've had a sore spot for this idiot for a long time. He was an immature pillhead in the 90's and was the lowest drawing champion of all time yet even when he left in 98 he was A LEGEND. On what basis? The fact that he treated his undercard like shit and only thought of himself? I like how his man bitch Ric Flair says Bret Hart couldnt draw....but Michaels could? Bret was easlily a bigger draw than HBK anyday, unless you were a 12 year old girl. I remember being 13-14 years old in 95-96...guys loathed Shawn, he was a channel switcher for any male over 13. He was the epitome of unprofessional and his matches are terribly overrated. Since his comeback in 2002 he only shows up for big shows...with few exceptions. For the most part on RAW the guys offense and selling is ridiculous. He does the same ol shit and everyone turns a blind eye to it because he's HBK....the IWC likes to bash Cena and Batista for "doing 5 moves" Fuck man, watch HBK in 90% of his matches. His selling is terrible, he over does everything. He looks like a fish out of water for the most part. And his physical appearence is horrible, He walks like he got a dick in his ass and he's mad crooss eyed..lets not forget bald. His match with Hogan was a disgrace and he showed how immature he was flopping around like a bitch in the main event of SS. WHy? to prove he's the Showstoppaaa....Newflash Shawn, your a footnote compared to hogans popularity. Like it or not, you should have been a man and shown him some respect. He rufused to let Bret get his victory back after WM 12 because he "lost his smile". Fuck if I was Bret I wouldnt have lost to that little piece of shit in Montreal either. He is and always will be a and overrated sac of shit. Worse thing is he another Flair...which means he got a good 12- 15 years of wreslting left....OH GOD...

Very smart post. I agree with everything you said.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I think you are a bit harsch on the guy, but to some extent, I agree (no, I am not saying Screw HBK!). His matches are legendary. Like the guy or not, it is the truth. His matches with Taker in the late 90's (and last year at Mania) were amazing, especially the first ever hell in a cell match at badd blood 97. His matches with Bret Hart, for the IC and WWF title(s) were just as good as his battles with Taker. I mean for God sake, they put on a 65 minute Iron Man match with only ONE pinfall. It has got to be extremely difficult to only have one pinfall and keep that long of a match interesting, but they did it, and Shawn was a HUGE part of that. His matches with Austin were a bit underwhelming, but he was injured most of the time. His ladder matches with Scott Hall (who isn't really a ladder match-type of guy) set the bar for future ladder matches.

And in the ring, Shawn could make just about anyone look good. In his prime, he could sell, next to Ric Flair, better than anyone I have ever seen. He made Sid Vicious look great, come on.

The point I am trying to make is this. If you want to bag on Shawn for the kind of man he is/used to be, that's fine. He was a jerk in his day, and probably still is (this God business is a little sketchy to me, always has been). He was TERRIBLY jealous of Bret, and is still bitter about Bret being successful before he was. The way he treated Hogan in their match at Summerslam leads me to believe his "becoming a new holy man" business is a little fake, but to each his own. But to attack his career as a performer is really quite stupid.

 

[ted sheckler]

Haha...Where do I even begin?? You gotta learn to separate your hatred of the man Shawn Michaels.. the one who passed by and then screwed your hero Bret Hart and the performer..entertainer and artist. What your doing is like saying Picasso wasn't a great artist because he was a prick.. Kubrick is a shitty director because he was mean to people.. Hendrix wasn't a great guitarist bc he was a drug addict. And by your drawing logic Backstreet boys are a better band than Led Zeppelin??? Backstreet sold more albums and merch..

Like most great performers and artists Shawn had his demons but that never took away from his performance in the ring. The guy was the first to make matches like "the ladder match" "Iron man match" Hell In a Cell" famous.. He won match of the year a record 10 times...the next highest guy has 5... He was involved in 2 of the 4 matches in WWE history that Dave Meltzer has ever given a 5 star rating... He was one of the main guys that got WWF to go "attitude".. The forefather of one of wrestlings most controversial.. envelope pushing..biggest money makers of all time Degeneration-X..

And as far as Brets drawing ability you are right... Bret..Diesel..Razor..and Shawn did draw better than just Shawn after everyone left... you are right.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Yeah that's right. I've had a sore spot for this idiot for a long time. He was an immature pillhead in the 90's

Yep, 10 years ago. You sure know how to hold a grudge don't you? And shall we discuss why he turned to prescription-medication, or became a 'pillhead' as you so maturely put it? Because he was in so much pain wrestling for US, the fans, because he was injured quite badly for US.

and was the lowest drawing champion of all time

Ah, you're one of those statistics people. You know this argument is incredibly weak, don't you? See, here, I'm not going to argue Shawn is a good draw, I'm going to argue the statistics you have are unreliable, which means that, if Shawn was champion again now, in the physical state he was then, you would not get the same results in the form of ratings. I always like to make that clear, as people who make the statistics argument aren't usually very good at following things.

Shall we look at this in context? I always find that's a better way to analyse things. In the last 10 years, what competition has the WWE had? A brief argument can be made for TNA in the last couple of years. Aside from that, there has been no good competition for the stars of today to compete with. TNA is, in no way, anywhere close to being the competition WCW was, and I will laugh in your face if you even try to argue with me on that. So, looking at that evidence, do you think the WWE stars of today, or even yesteryear, would have been much more successful than Shawn was? There are a few you could make the argument for. Hogan, most likely. Austin, afterall he was the one who argubably saved the WWE. Therefore, it's unfair to compare ratings Shawn had, to ratings now, and ratings in the years before his reign.

yet even when he left in 98 he was A LEGEND. On what basis?

Maybe because, already, he'd had some of the best matches in WWE's history? Now, you're one of those people who can't separate character from person, that much is obvious. However, surely even you can see that Shawn Michaels, the wrestler was and is fantastic in the ring.

The fact that he treated his undercard like shit and only thought of himself? I like how his man bitch Ric Flair says Bret Hart couldnt draw....but Michaels could?

I love how immature you get as I continue reading. You just over-ride so many of your points using terms like 'man bitch'. What does Flair have anything to do with how people should feel about Shawn? Oh I know, I dislike Hogan, so that means 'Screw Hogan'.

Bret was easlily a bigger draw than HBK anyday, unless you were a 12 year old girl.

Are 12 year old girls opinions worth less? It's only you adult men that can make an informed decision of who is a good wrestler, yeah?

I remember being 13-14 years old in 95-96...guys loathed Shawn, he was a channel switcher for any male over 13.

First of all, that's completely pathetic and you're one of the only people I've ever heatd say it. Second of all, it's called jealousy hon. Regardless of your feelings, Shawn was the 'Sexy boy' and women wanted him. I guess some people's egos couldn't handle that.

He was the epitome of unprofessional

Yeah he was. 10 years ago. Not that this is relevant today, or is relevant at all in his matches or wrestling career. I'll make it easier for you, you've seen the hype over Twilight. Edward, a character, is different to Robert Pattinson, the actor. Again? Friends, Rachel, the character, is different to Jennifer Aniston, the actress. Do you see where I'm going with this?

and his matches are terribly overrated.

All the Shawn-haters come back with this one, yet never give me any evidence or examples. Also, I'e never understood why being 'over-rated' is a reason to hate someone. If almost everyone thinks a match is great, which is often the case when it comes to Shawn, you may want to look at the fact that you're in the wrong. Even if something he does is over-rated, does that mean it isn't still good, or great?

Since his comeback in 2002 he only shows up for big shows...with few exceptions.

I know, it's not like he's had some fantastic TV matches with the likes of Cena and Mysterio in the last few years alone. It's not like his promos have been outstanding in some cases. It's not like he's had great matches with people of a low calibre such as Shelton Benjamin. Oh wait...

For the most part on RAW the guys offense and selling is ridiculous.

Feel free to give me examples. Alternatively, you can continue spouting mindless bullshit to the forum, with everyone seeing through it.

He does the same ol shit and everyone turns a blind eye to it because he's HBK....the IWC likes to bash Cena and Batista for "doing 5 moves" Fuck man, watch HBK in 90% of his matches.

I watch Shawn in 100% of his matches and I do it more than once. So I think I'm qualified to argue against you here. First of all, people who use the '5 moves' argument are idiots. Every wrestler has a specific moveset with a few favoured moves. It's why people HAVE signature/finishing moves. Now, if you follow Shawn's career like I have, we'll know that, actually, he has many more than 5 moves. And most people reading this will be smart enough to see this.

Second of all, to steal Slyfox's argument, since when does the amount of moves a wrestler knows matter? Now, let's pretend for a second Shawn has a limited moveset, he's still going to be an amazing wrestler. Why? Because the amount of moves you know mean very, very little in professional wrestling.

His selling is terrible, he over does everything. He looks like a fish out of water for the most part.

Examples?

And his physical appearence is horrible, He walks like he got a dick in his ass and he's mad crooss eyed..lets not forget bald.

The thread title is 'Screw HBK'...I'll say no more.

His match with Hogan was a disgrace and he showed how immature he was flopping around like a bitch in the main event of SS. WHy? to prove he's the Showstoppaaa....

That was the most entertaining match I've ever watched of Hogans, I laughed so much. If you were at work, and a guy who rarely worked there anymore, had moved to the competition in the companys time of need, and wasn't likely to show up much more after, you'd be pissed if he got a promotion or bonus over you. I apply the same principal here. While Shawn didn't need to beat him to be great, it'd have helped him much more than a win for Hogan. If you can convince me how Hogan winning was necessary, I'll change my mind. Yet no one has ever managed to do that.

Newflash Shawn, your a footnote compared to hogans popularity.

Who isn't? Cena? Hart? Flair? Aside from The Rock, no one is close to Hogans popularity outside of the business. So, feel free to apply this argument to Shawn, I can apply it to almost every wrestler you'll praise.

Like it or not, you should have been a man and shown him some respect.

In the same way Hogan and McMahon could have shown Shawn respect, you mean?

He rufused to let Bret get his victory back after WM 12 because he "lost his smile". Fuck if I was Bret I wouldnt have lost to that little piece of shit in Montreal either.

That whole statement is pathetic. You can't say something bad about Shawn not losing to Hart and then praise Hart for doing the same thing, it's hypocrisy.

He is and always will be a and overrated sac of shit. Worse thing is he another Flair...which means he got a good 12- 15 years of wreslting left....OH GOD...

He's leaving in the next few years at the most, actually.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Yeah he was. 10 years ago. Not that this is relevant today, or is relevant at all in his matches or wrestling career.







That was the most entertaining match I've ever watched of Hogans, I laughed so much. If you were at work, and a guy who rarely worked there anymore, had moved to the competition in the companys time of need, and wasn't likely to show up much more after, you'd be pissed if he got a promotion or bonus over you. I apply the same principal here. While Shawn didn't need to beat him to be great, it'd have helped him much more than a win for Hogan. If you can convince me how Hogan winning was necessary, I'll change my mind. Yet no one has ever managed to do that.

Now math isnt my strong point, mind, but Im petty sure 2005 wasn't 10 years ago. The fact you ta-la-la laughed your way through watching that match only furthermore proves that Shawn Micheals threw an absolute unprofessional baby fit, and made an utter mockery of a match that should have been one of the biggest of all time.

What would Shawn winning have helped? You have to be TRULY delusional to think they are gonna pull Hulk fucking Hogan out of the mothballs to lay down for fucking HBK if you bring Hogan out, its to have them pop the shit outta the crowd, sell some tickets and merch, and WIN. Not loose to the number one jobber to the stars (which at this point, AND at that point, is what HBK amounts to) what you are saying here makes fuck all sense from any booking standpoint. You don't DARE trot Hogan out for a small run to have him fucking LOSE especially not at the second biggest show of the year, to a guy who will be doing zero substanial winning fr the rest of his carreer. Only the truest of true homers could make such an absurd statement.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Now math isnt my strong point, mind, but Im petty sure 2005 wasn't 10 years ago. The fact you ta-la-la laughed your way through watching that match only furthermore proves that Shawn Micheals threw an absolute unprofessional baby fit, and made an utter mockery of a match that should have been one of the biggest of all time.

What would Shawn winning have helped? You have to be TRULY delusional to think they are gonna pull Hulk fucking Hogan out of the mothballs to lay down for fucking HBK if you bring Hogan out, its to have them pop the shit outta the crowd, sell some tickets and merch, and WIN. Not loose to the number one jobber to the stars (which at this point, AND at that point, is what HBK amounts to) what you are saying here makes fuck all sense from any booking standpoint. You don't DARE trot Hogan out for a small run to have him fucking LOSE especially not at the second biggest show of the year, to a guy who will be doing zero substanial winning fr the rest of his carreer. Only the truest of true homers could make such an absurd statement.

Ummm...what he said.

Seriously, people act like this was some egregious sin on Hogan's part. Hogan is the biggest superstar of all time, and Michaels is already as over as he's going to be. Beating Hogan does nothing for Michaels career (other then make Michaels feel better about himself) or the WWE. People want to see Hogan WIN. People pop for Hogan like HBK could only dream of. Beating Hogan is a special, special thing in this industry. Rock got it. Lesnar got it. Angle got it. If Hogan just lays down for everyone, then it takes the luster off the feat.

Not to mention that Shawn Michaels, OF ALL PEOPLE, getting pissy because someone didn't want to job for him is the most hypocritical crap I've ever heard. Do you REMEMBER why Bret Hart didn't want to job to Michaels in 1997?

 

[HBK-aholic]

Now math isnt my strong point, mind, but Im petty sure 2005 wasn't 10 years ago. The fact you ta-la-la laughed your way through watching that match only furthermore proves that Shawn Micheals threw an absolute unprofessional baby fit, and made an utter mockery of a match that should have been one of the biggest of all time.

What would Shawn winning have helped? You have to be TRULY delusional to think they are gonna pull Hulk fucking Hogan out of the mothballs to lay down for fucking HBK

Why? That's the question I'm asking, why could Hogan not come back to lost to Shawn?

if you bring Hogan out, its to have them pop the shit outta the crowd, sell some tickets and merch, and WIN.

The 'Win' part is what I was referring to in the Bar Room - no one knew who would win, so why would Hogan losing have affected ticket sales? If someone is going to not buy a Hogn shirt because he lost to another of the all-time greats, he's not as big a draw as people say. However, since we know he IS a huge draw, how would him losing have affected anything?

Not loose to the number one jobber to the stars (which at this point, AND at that point, is what HBK amounts to) what you are saying here makes fuck all sense from any booking standpoint. You don't DARE trot Hogan out for a small run to have him fucking LOSE especially not at the second biggest show of the year, to a guy who will be doing zero substanial winning fr the rest of his carreer. Only the truest of true homers could make such an absurd statement.

This just makes no sense, as you refute your own point. Hogan wasn't going to be doing any 'Substantial winning' for the rest of his career either. So I don't understand why having Shawn win would have been so bad. Again, I'm not saying Shawn definitely should have won etc. But the way this is treated it's as if he shouldn't even have been considered for the win which is absurd.

Ummm...what he said.

Seriously, people act like this was some egregious sin on Hogan's part. Hogan is the biggest superstar of all time, and Michaels is already as over as he's going to be. Beating Hogan does nothing for Michaels career (other then make Michaels feel better about himself) or the WWE. People want to see Hogan WIN. People pop for Hogan like HBK could only dream of. Beating Hogan is a special, special thing in this industry. Rock got it. Lesnar got it. Angle got it. If Hogan just lays down for everyone, then it takes the luster off the feat.

Not to mention that Shawn Michaels, OF ALL PEOPLE, getting pissy because someone didn't want to job for him is the most hypocritical crap I've ever heard. Do you REMEMBER why Bret Hart didn't want to job to Michaels in 1997?

But it's not like laying down for some small wrestler, this is Shawn Michaels, one of the all time greats, I'm simply asking what would be so bad about having him win? Are you surprised shawn was annoyed that he had to lose when he was going to be doing more with the rest of his career than Hogan would be?

 

[pyrusane]

I've heard both sides of the argument about that SS match, and honestly, to me it makes very little difference who should have won. However, there is a part that seems to keep being left out.

The way I've always heard it, this was supposed to be more than a one match feud. I've heard it said that there was originally supposed to be a series of matches between the two, with HBK getting the win at SS then Hogan getting the win further down the line. As I recall, Shawn took the feud very seriously in the beginning. I remember the (literal) kickoff to the feud on RAW, with the two posing together in the ring until Michaels "surprised" Hogan with SCM. The look on Shawn's face as he stood over Hogan was actually quite chilling, in a way, and I thought it was a very well done segment.

My understanding is that the reason the feud didn't play out as planned was because Hogan's knees were basically destroyed at that point, and he let it be known just a few days before SS that he only had the ability to work one match, and he expected to win that match. At this point, he basically was holding the WWE hostage, as the match was already scheduled, the event was just a few days away, and he was now refusing to work the match unless he went over.

How much of all that is actually true I won't try to determine, this is just the version I have heard most often. In that context, I can somewhat understand Shawn's actions. This makes it less of a case of "Why should I job to Hogan," and more of a "Why should I job clean to this guy, considering the stunt he is pulling here." Now, some could argue that this is the exact same thing Shawn did when he "lost his smile." I won't dispute that, other than to say that it would seem to make him more qualified to recognize it when it happened to him.

The last point I will bring up is a story from Mick Foley's first book. He talks about Jake Roberts, and a match that involved Muhhamed Ali. Ali came into the ring and was laying people out with right hands, but when he hit Roberts, Jake just laughed in his face and refused to sell. One of the greatest, if not the greatest, boxer in the history of the sport, and he got no-sold by a career mid-carder. When he was asked about it later, Jake's response was along the lines of "Ali was here for one night. I have to come back here every week."

Of course, all that any of the above really means is that, at least in Shawn's mind, and at the time, he was justified in how he reacted. It doesn't necessarily mean it was right, or that it couldn't have been handled a different way. I just felt like the entire story wasn't being represented (assuming the story I've heard was accurate).

 

[Via Armbar]

Now math isnt my strong point, mind, but Im petty sure 2005 wasn't 10 years ago. The fact you ta-la-la laughed your way through watching that match only furthermore proves that Shawn Micheals threw an absolute unprofessional baby fit, and made an utter mockery of a match that should have been one of the biggest of all time.

What would Shawn winning have helped? You have to be TRULY delusional to think they are gonna pull Hulk fucking Hogan out of the mothballs to lay down for fucking HBK if you bring Hogan out, its to have them pop the shit outta the crowd, sell some tickets and merch, and WIN. Not loose to the number one jobber to the stars (which at this point, AND at that point, is what HBK amounts to) what you are saying here makes fuck all sense from any booking standpoint. You don't DARE trot Hogan out for a small run to have him fucking LOSE especially not at the second biggest show of the year, to a guy who will be doing zero substanial winning fr the rest of his carreer. Only the truest of true homers could make such an absurd statement.

Yes and yes. You can argue the fact that EITHER of these men winning would do shit all for the business or furthering storylines. It's not like Hogan was hulkin his way up to a title shot, and it's not like Shawn beating Hogan would have gotten him anywhere either. This match was for the fans. That's really it's only reason for existence, was for the fans. Well and there money but that's a given.

So what would the majority of fans like to see: Shawn Michaels deafeating the greatest wrestler in the history of the sport and use his momentum to go on to fued with the Spirit Squad months later...or use this one night to give fans a healthy does of nostalgia in seeing Hulk Hogan overcome the odds and walk away victorious and remind everyone why he was what he was for this business?

When matches like this happen, and they are once in a lifetime, the end result doesn't matter. Neither men would benefit from a win or lose momentum with a loss. So in situations like these, they smartest thing to do is make the most fans as possible happy. It's not possible to make everyone happy. But I gaurentee the majority of the crowd that night went home stoked as hell that they got to see the Hulkster celebrating a win one last time, or even seeing it for the first time. What would they have gone home thinking if Shawn Michaels won? Nothing as memorable i'm sure. Has Hogan done the same thing for 25 years? Of course he has. And yet it's over everytime.

Was HBK overselling Hogan's offense funny? Yeah it was. Then five minutes into the match it became sad. Shawn's history is no secret to anyone, nor is the claim that he grew up and changed himself for the better. Whether thats true or not I cannot say because I don't know the man nor do I work with him. But for the duration of that match he became the man that has been verbally shit upon for years by former coworkers. And normally I wouldn't care about someones attitude backstage or with fans because im watching professional wrestling, not judging gentleman of the year. This time though, he destroyed the fans suspension of disbelief. He made the match the fans paid to see a mockery, plain and simple. Does he have the right to be pissed at Hogan? Sure i guess, if he feels Hogan has done him or the business wrong, that's his right. But to lay your personal vendattas out there for the paying fans to see, and in essence ruining what would be a tremendous match, that's childish in every sense of the word.

Do I prefer Michaels over Hogan? Absolutly. I find him infinitely more entertaining than Hogan honestly. But i'm not blind to the shit he does. And I know Hogan has a bad reputation as well and I strongly disagree with alot of shit he's done. This is a Shawn Michaels thread though. The man is a PROFESSIONAL wrestler, and for that match he through that job title out the window and became an unprofessional one.

 

[kc2788x]

All ******ed Shawn fans can defend Shawn all they want, they're in denial, the fact that he doesn't want to pass the torch to new generations and the fact that he uses politics to get his ways is clearly there, week in and week out, all his moves you can see coming from a mile away (after a see-able flying forearm, he does that neat-o little stand followed by a cheap savage elbow and than sweet chin to his poor opponent who has to job for this ass) hey HBK- alcoholic, are you really gonna sit there and tell me Shawn doesn't play "powers to be" after all his buddy is banging the bosses daughter! If you read Bret's book, you can clearly know that if he has his way, he "books" every match he could, did you happened to know that he book himself to go over the British bulldog for the European title? Bet ya didn't know that huh, he was cryin, bitchin, moaning and complaining because bret took time off! But since you're so much in denial, you're probably gonna excuse yourself from the fact! Fact number 2; Jericho and big show was on a roll as tag team champ, do you honestly think DX needed the tag team titles? (swallow your pride and just say no) DX want's CREDIBILITY, that's it, Shawn as a individual only wants all the fans around the world that, "hey I got this title to my creditably" that is it! Shawn and his ego! With this so-called angle right now, the one with o how he needs this match with the undertaker, can you honestly sit there and tell me even the slightest he's using politics to end the undertakers streak? Right there in the back of the dressing room right now, he's probably avoiding the undertaker, kissing HHH's ass and following him every where he goes! Are you not the slightest disappointed that it would really suck for the undertaker to lose his streak! you and I are wrestling fan, we don't know the real Shawn, maybe he is a real lying backstabbing real prick! Stop denying that he's doing it for the business because he's not, he's doing it for himself, if he was doing it for the business, he put over guys like kofi, Dibiase, MVP, Christian, Cody Rhodes, Matt hardy, (I am not a swagger fan) but swagger, I am sure politics came to him beating Koslov (such a disappointment that was) Dolph, Charlie hass, even drew! My opinion on Shawn is absolutely the same as the performer in Shawn, a lying backstabbing parasite leech who looks for himself! Don't ever say he's in it for the business, if he is, he go on and put on a show, he doesn't go after titles after titles after titles for credibility only, that's my take on Shawn! like the topic says
SCREW SHAWN (and triple H and THAT JOKE SHAME-US who only has 3 moves, one which he copies ala the razors edge!)

 

[Alex]

All ******ed Shawn fans can defend Shawn all they want, they're in denial, the fact that he doesn't want to pass the torch to new generations and the fact that he uses politics to get his ways is clearly there, week in and week out, all his moves you can see coming from a mile away (after a see-able flying forearm, he does that neat-o little stand followed by a cheap savage elbow and than sweet chin to his poor opponent who has to job for this ass) hey HBK- alcoholic, are you really gonna sit there and tell me Shawn doesn't play "powers to be" after all his buddy is banging the bosses daughter! If you read Bret's book, you can clearly know that if he has his way, he "books" every match he could, did you happened to know that he book himself to go over the British bulldog for the European title? Bet ya didn't know that huh, he was cryin, bitchin, moaning and complaining because bret took time off! But since you're so much in denial, you're probably gonna excuse yourself from the fact! Fact number 2; Jericho and big show was on a roll as tag team champ, do you honestly think DX needed the tag team titles? (swallow your pride and just say no) DX want's CREDIBILITY, that's it, Shawn as a individual only wants all the fans around the world that, "hey I got this title to my creditably" that is it! Shawn and his ego! With this so-called angle right now, the one with o how he needs this match with the undertaker, can you honestly sit there and tell me even the slightest he's using politics to end the undertakers streak? Right there in the back of the dressing room right now, he's probably avoiding the undertaker, kissing HHH's ass and following him every where he goes! Are you not the slightest disappointed that it would really suck for the undertaker to lose his streak! you and I are wrestling fan, we don't know the real Shawn, maybe he is a real lying backstabbing real prick! Stop denying that he's doing it for the business because he's not, he's doing it for himself, if he was doing it for the business, he put over guys like kofi, Dibiase, MVP, Christian, Cody Rhodes, Matt hardy, (I am not a swagger fan) but swagger, I am sure politics came to him beating Koslov (such a disappointment that was) Dolph, Charlie hass, even drew! My opinion on Shawn is absolutely the same as the performer in Shawn, a lying backstabbing parasite leech who looks for himself! Don't ever say he's in it for the business, if he is, he go on and put on a show, he doesn't go after titles after titles after titles for credibility only, that's my take on Shawn! like the topic says
SCREW SHAWN (and triple H and THAT JOKE SHAME-US who only has 3 moves, one which he copies ala the razors edge!)

First, use paragraphs next time

second, last time I checked Shawn Michaels put over quite a few people, (be it by himself or with Triple H) but he has helped put over Legacy, John Cena, Chris Jericho, Jeff Hardy, Randy Orton and others.

If he wanted another title reign do you not think he would have got one with his 'backroom politics'. His tag reigns were essentially because there was no one else noteworthy to put them on and Jerishow's time had come, as they had plans for Jericho (Edge's return) and in turn he and Triple H losing these titles gave the rub to Miz and Big Show.

Aren't you jumping to conclusions that he's going to end Undertaker's streak, you'd think they didn't put on a great match at last years Wrestlemania and wanted to try and replicate it

 

[LongHessa]

Well I respect everyone's opinion but I stand by what I said. And yes, I was a little drunk last night when I started this thread. But no one has changed my mind. I still think Shawn is overrated and can do no wrong in most peoples eyes. I dont agree that Shawn was a guy that had great matches with everyone...actually quite the opposite. His matches against Diesel where designed to make Kevin look worthless and slow in the ring. Having Shawn run circles around the guy and making him look like a ****** is exactly "making someone look good". His matches with Curt Henning were always pretty shit, which to this day puzzles me. How can you not have a classic with Henning? I was never a fan of his matches with Austin either, they were good...but nowhere near the Bret/Austin masterpeices. The list could go on...you get the point. As far as Hogan goes, Shawn was a prick. Somehow in HBK's little mind he thought he shouldnt put Hogan over, thats absurd. Not even Shawn hopped up on 13 Somas could possibly think he means more to the business than Hogan...but of course, he does. I just think the guy is not that great. He has had good matches I agree, but I honestly believe he only shows up for the big shows...again, with few exceptions. On RAW or smackdown the guy looks lazy, sloppy and weak in the ring generally speaking....sorry, it is what it is.

 

[D-Man]

Let's break this abomination of a paragraph down a bit for clarity's sake, shall we??

All ******ed Shawn fans can defend Shawn all they want, they're in denial, the fact that he doesn't want to pass the torch to new generations and the fact that he uses politics to get his ways is clearly there,

First off, your use of the word "******ed" is unnecessary. Also, it's borderline offensive. Basically, I'm borderline on infracting you for using it. But, since you seem to be heated from this argument already, I'll give you a free pass.

Now, onto HBK. You're saying he doesn't want to pass the torch? Correct me if I'm wrong, but prior to the newest DX reformation, wasn't HBK losing the majority of his matches? Didn't he replace an injured Triple H and put John Cena over during Wrestlemania? And Kurt Angle? And Chris Jericho? And Randy Orton?

It's called research... try it next time before barking without a bite.

week in and week out, all his moves you can see coming from a mile away (after a see-able flying forearm, he does that neat-o little stand followed by a cheap savage elbow and than sweet chin to his poor opponent who has to job for this ass)

Well then I guess the Rock sucks for doing his "bring it" hand gesture, or Hogan for his Hulk-up, or Austin for his Lou Thesz press, or any other legendary wrestling figure, for that matter. All of these guys (amonst hundreds of others) use a repetitive formula in their matches that has been a requirement sent straight down from Vince McMahon. You want to hate on guys for repeating their movesets in every match? Blame Vince.

hey HBK- alcoholic, are you really gonna sit there and tell me Shawn doesn't play "powers to be" after all his buddy is banging the bosses daughter!

Once again; research. Triple H put his best foot forward in the 90's and began to follow HBK around. HBK doesn't abuse HHH's power at all... he's got his own, and Triple H tagged along with him for almost a decade.

But once HBK found religion his entire lifestyle changed... and so did the business. No longer did Vince listen to his wrestlers. He decided to march to the beat of his own drum and make all of the rules. Every decision for HBK to go over had NOTHING to do with politics.

You seriously need to let go of the past. Even I can admit that HBK was power-hungry when he was a young, twenty-something year old guy trying to grab a top spot in the company and achieve his personal goals. But it's been over 15 years since then, for God's sake. Let it go already.

If you read Bret's book, you can clearly know that if he has his way, he "books" every match he could, did you happened to know that he book himself to go over the British bulldog for the European title? Bet ya didn't know that huh, he was cryin, bitchin, moaning and complaining because bret took time off! But since you're so much in denial, you're probably gonna excuse yourself from the fact!

You act like we joined this forum yesterday. Once again, this is ancient history. WWF: One Night Only was back in 1997... 13 years ago. Once again, this was prior to him finding religion and coming to the realization that he was being a ******** for years.

Fact number 2; Jericho and big show was on a roll as tag team champ, do you honestly think DX needed the tag team titles? (swallow your pride and just say no) DX want's CREDIBILITY, that's it, Shawn as a individual only wants all the fans around the world that, "hey I got this title to my creditably" that is it! Shawn and his ego!

Oh, that's right. So it has nothing to do with the fact that DX gear is the top selling merchandise on WWEShop.com and the gimmick is still a mega draw. Yup, it's all HBK's ego. Man, you're dillusional.

With this so-called angle right now, the one with o how he needs this match with the undertaker, can you honestly sit there and tell me even the slightest he's using politics to end the undertakers streak? Right there in the back of the dressing room right now, he's probably avoiding the undertaker, kissing HHH's ass and following him every where he goes! Are you not the slightest disappointed that it would really suck for the undertaker to lose his streak! you and I are wrestling fan, we don't know the real Shawn, maybe he is a real lying backstabbing real prick! Stop denying that he's doing it for the business because he's not, he's doing it for himself, if he was doing it for the business, he put over guys like kofi, Dibiase, MVP, Christian, Cody Rhodes, Matt hardy, (I am not a swagger fan) but swagger, I am sure politics came to him beating Koslov (such a disappointment that was) Dolph, Charlie hass, even drew!

Geez... you're mad, huh?

The angle with Taker is classic Vince-booking. Last year's match is widely considered one of the greatest matches of the decade. Therefore, Vince is going to milk it for all it's worth. This has nothing to do with HBK's "politics." It has to do with a successful match from last year that's STILL talked about on a regular basis that should get repeated because people want to see the rematch. Ali vs. Frazier, Matt Hughes vs. Georges St. Pierre, Randy Couture vs. Chuck Liddell... all examples of how REMATCHES SELL TICKETS. Why the hell WOULDN'T the WWE want to put this match on again, and this time with a much bigger buildup?

As for HBK ending the streak, I completely agree that HBK shouldn't be the one to do it. However, it's not written in stone yet. We'll just have to wait until WM to find out who's going to grab the win. But, I bet you'll be paying for the PPV to find out, right? Yup, looks like the WWE did their job here.

My opinion on Shawn is absolutely the same as the performer in Shawn, a lying backstabbing parasite leech who looks for himself!

Gee... didn't see that coming.

Don't ever say he's in it for the business, if he is, he go on and put on a show, he doesn't go after titles after titles after titles for credibility only, that's my take on Shawn!

You act like HBK books the matches or something. Dude, wake up. They have writers for that shit. Wrestlers in the WWE pitch ideas to Vince every single day. They all think their ideas sell tickets and merchandise. What makes HBK so different? Well, first of all it might be because of the fact that his ideas are better than most.

But secondly, you should try watching his DVD "Heartbreak and Trumph: The Shawn Michaels Story." In the 3-disk DVD set, he is praised by some of the greatest and most experienced minds in the business who obviously know a TON more about pro-wrestling than you do. If his peers (who should be the most jealous and bitter towards him) feel that he is one of (if not THE) greatest performers of all time, that says something. He is put over by Jim Ross, Gerald Brisco, Vince McMahon, John Cena, Edge, Chris Jericho, Pat Paterson, Ric Flair, and Marty Jannetty who all put their reputations on the line and went on record to say that HBK was THE greatest performer of all time in a wrestling ring. In a nut shell, that takes everyone's negative opinions on him and urinates all over them, including yours.

 

[LongHessa]

"You act like HBK books the matches or something. Dude, wake up. They have writers for that shit."

Hahahahahhaah..is this a joke. Man you are a blind HBK mark. HBK and HHH are the booking commitee. HHH or Shawn never compete in a match that they dont determine the outcome. Especially Trips. Are you kidding. Shawns been a writer/booker and up Vinces ass since 1996, and his best friend is screwing stephanie....If shawn doesnt like the outcome to his match all he has to do is go to HHH and say "hey doucher, change this". DONE. Oh but wait...they dont determine the outcome, they have writers for that. Please.

 

[HBK-aholic]

You're pathetic. I mean, are you actually using Shawn LOSING a lot of his matches as a reason to hate him? I mean, you used the Hogan match as an excuse earlier, where Shawn clearly didn't like wht the outcome would be. Yet here you're saying if Shawn doesn't like the outcome all he has to do is go to Triple H? You're refuting your own point, as it clearly isn't the case or he'd have beaten Hogan. Not to mention the fact that Shawn loses big matches often. Did he win the Rumble? No. Did he beat Cena at WM? No. Did he beat The Undertaker at WM? No. He's lost to almost everyone on the roster at some point. Now I don't expect you to reply to this, you didn't reply to my first post, but stop spouting such random shit.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

"You act like HBK books the matches or something. Dude, wake up. They have writers for that shit."

Hahahahahhaah..is this a joke. Man you are a blind HBK mark. HBK and HHH are the booking commitee. HHH or Shawn never compete in a match that they dont determine the outcome. Especially Trips. Are you kidding. Shawns been a writer/booker and up Vinces ass since 1996, and his best friend is screwing stephanie....If shawn doesnt like the outcome to his match all he has to do is go to HHH and say "hey doucher, change this". DONE. Oh but wait...they dont determine the outcome, they have writers for that. Please.

The outcome is determined in all matches, genius. HHH doesn't have the final say-so in who wins matches or not. Vince McMahon does and it is idiotic to think otherwise. Can you prove that HHH and HBK are the booking committee? I know you can't so you are just wasting your time.

 

[D-Man]

"You act like HBK books the matches or something. Dude, wake up. They have writers for that shit."

Hahahahahhaah..is this a joke. Man you are a blind HBK mark. HBK and HHH are the booking commitee. HHH or Shawn never compete in a match that they dont determine the outcome. Especially Trips. Are you kidding. Shawns been a writer/booker and up Vinces ass since 1996, and his best friend is screwing stephanie....If shawn doesnt like the outcome to his match all he has to do is go to HHH and say "hey doucher, change this". DONE. Oh but wait...they dont determine the outcome, they have writers for that. Please.

Oh, ok. And you have PROOF of this, right? Your opinions mean shit on this subject.

I'm not an HBK mark. Actually, he's not even in my top 5 favorites. I'm just not ignorant to all of his well-deserved accomplishments like some people.

But, I'm also aware of how much of an ass hole he was up until his departure after Wrestlemania 14. Once again, he even stated in his DVD that he was very difficult to work with back in the 90's, due to his ego and drug addiction. So, he found religion and cleaned up for the sake of his child.

When he returned at Summerslam in 2002, the entire business had changed. The Monday Night Wars were over, the monopoly occurred, and Vince corrected all of his past mistakes... including taking orders from the men on his roster. HBK's four-year absence from pro-wrestling caused him to lose almost all of his backstage power and political influence. Since his return, he has been booked by Vince McMahon and his writers ONLY. This is FACT. You should try to dig some of it up sometimes. Maybe then you wouldn't be so wrong in your debates.

 

[X]

So we're talking about the HBK-Hogan match, eh? I remember when I started getting back into wrestling around 2006 after losing interest for several years, one of the first DVDs I picked up was Summerslam 2005 purely for that match, and boy-oh-boy was I disappointed. Not a very good match at all, but the one thing I did love from it was HBK's over-the-top selling. Why? Because Hogan is a fucking prick and I loved seeing HBK stick it to him subtly in front of millions. Unprofessional? Sure. Childish? Probably. Entertaining? Most fucking DEFINITELY.

I mean, come the fuck on, is this not just hilarious?

 

[Hulkamaniac]

So we're talking about the HBK-Hogan match, eh? I remember when I started getting back into wrestling around 2006 after losing interest for several years, one of the first DVDs I picked up was Summerslam 2005 purely for that match, and boy-oh-boy was I disappointed. Not a very good match at all, but the one thing I did love from it was HBK's over-the-top selling. Why? Because Hogan is a fucking prick and I loved seeing HBK stick it to him subtly in front of millions. Unprofessional? Sure. Childish? Probably. Entertaining? Most fucking DEFINITELY.

I mean, come the fuck on, is this not just hilarious?

Sure, it's kind of funny, except it just shows Shawn Michaels lack of care for the business. Remember the MSG Incident? Of course you do, you're a smart guy. But Shawn and his buddies Nash, Hall, and HHH put a big effing hole through kayfabe and all because they cared more about themselves and theri own ego's than the business. Or there's the time HBK "lost his smile". But with the case at hand, again, if HBK is pissed that Hogan doesn't want to job to him (hilarious given his own history), he showed once again that his ego is more important than the show, the fans, or the business.

 

[X]

Sure, it's kind of funny, except it just shows Shawn Michaels lack of care for the business. Remember the MSG Incident? Of course you do, you're a smart guy. But Shawn and his buddies Nash, Hall, and HHH put a big effing hole through kayfabe and all because they cared more about themselves and theri own ego's than the business. Or there's the time HBK "lost his smile". But with the case at hand, again, if HBK is pissed that Hogan doesn't want to job to him (hilarious given his own history), he showed once again that his ego is more important than the show, the fans, or the business.

So basically everything you just said can be applied to Hogan as well. I'm not defending Michaels actions, in fact I said they were unprofessional. Doesn't mean I don't think it was fucking hilarious, and I love HBK for doing it. Not like the match was going to be anything special to begin with, not with Hogan's age.

But what's humorous here is how you're blasting HBK for these unprofessional egomaniacal actions, when Hogan practically wrote the book on that subject. Surely I don't need to remind you of his WCW tenure, do I?

 

[Hulkamaniac]

So basically everything you just said can be applied to Hogan as well. I'm not defending Michaels actions, in fact I said they were unprofessional. Doesn't mean I don't think it was fucking hilarious, and I love HBK for doing it. Not like the match was going to be anything special to begin with, not with Hogan's age.

But what's humorous here is how you're blasting HBK for these unprofessional egomaniacal actions, when Hogan practically wrote the book on that subject. Surely I don't need to remind you of his WCW tenure, do I?

Surely you see the difference between backstage politics and putting it out there for the public to see. In the ring, Hogan is always professional. Yeah, he won most of his matches, but he also made gys look good while doing it. He takes a beating for most of the match, takes most of the other guys offense, and he sold the hell out of it, right up until the Hulk Up. HBK tried to make Hogan look foolish in the ring, and to me, there's a big difference between doing that and politicking backstage. Can you think of a time HOgan has tried to make people look bad in the ring?

Backstage politics is part of the nature of the business, and it's expected. Everyone wants to keep their spot. I wish it weren't so, but it is. But out front, it's a different story. Out front, you're expected to do you job and make your opponent looks as good as possible. Hogan went out there, and he was still professional, which is lucky for Michaels, because while Hogan isn't one of the businesses renowned tough guys, Michaels is one of the biggest real life wusses in the biz, and HOgan could have hurt him if he wanted to. But Hogan handled it like a pro, and still sold for Michaels anyway. Because he's a professional.

 

[D-Man]

So basically everything you just said can be applied to Hogan as well. I'm not defending Michaels actions, in fact I said they were unprofessional. Doesn't mean I don't think it was fucking hilarious, and I love HBK for doing it. Not like the match was going to be anything special to begin with, not with Hogan's age.

But what's humorous here is how you're blasting HBK for these unprofessional egomaniacal actions, when Hogan practically wrote the book on that subject. Surely I don't need to remind you of his WCW tenure, do I?

THIS^^^

As well as the fact that every flaw anyone could ever think up in regards to HBK was something he did prior to his return in 2002. It has been well-documented and admitted by HBK that his past actions were inappropriate.

This basically all comes down to forgiveness. So many of you hold grudges against the guy. But let's face it... if you were a young blue-chipper, the focal point of a promotion, and you KNEW you had endless amounts of skill and pull with the higher-ups of your company, you mean to tell me that you wouldn't take advantage at every turn in order to increase your notoriety?? Anyone that says no is a liar.

Furthermore, X was smart enough to remind us of how Hulk Hogan wrote the book on everything that this thread is saying negatively about HBK. What's the difference? Even after his departures and comebacks to different wrestling promotions, he still practices politics and constantly pulls rank as his ego shoves everyone else aside. Some can say he's still doing it in TNA. And there is no 'maybe' about it... while many of you speculate as to whether HBK still has political power within WWE, Hulk Hogan IS the booker and writer in TNA. Hogan is still up to his old tricks... HBK is not.

 

[Via Armbar]

Nobody should be denying that Michaels has been just as bad as Hogan and vice versa regarding being complete unprofessionals. They both have had countless other wrestlers speaking out on their past actions and the detrimental actions they've taken in the business.

Like EKo said, it's funny. But you can't deny how unprofessional it is and it's a spit in the face of the fans because he made a mockery of the match. Of course the match probably wasn't going to crack the top 5 of all time greatest matches, but you have a job to do out there and part of it is making the crowd believing in what you are doing is real. He failed at that.

Regarding the talk of matches that didn't happen between the two but didn't...coulda woulda shoulda. Only one match happened. Michaels knew only one match was going to happen and he could have been professional.

 

[D-Man]

Nobody should be denying that Michaels has been just as bad as Hogan and vice versa regarding being complete unprofessionals. They both have had countless other wrestlers speaking out on their past actions and the detrimental actions they've taken in the business.

Like EKo said, it's funny. But you can't deny how unprofessional it is and it's a spit in the face of the fans because he made a mockery of the match. Of course the match probably wasn't going to crack the top 5 of all time greatest matches, but you have a job to do out there and part of it is making the crowd believing in what you are doing is real. He failed at that.

Regarding the talk of matches that didn't happen between the two but didn't...coulda woulda shoulda. Only one match happened. Michaels knew only one match was going to happen and he could have been professional.

This is what makes me laugh. I totally see your point, but let me ask you a question...

By saying that it was funny, were you entertained?

I'm guessing your answer is "yes", along with mine.

This match was not meant to be serious... not by ANY means. Even the average non-smark fan realized that Hogan's win was a total joke and a spit in the fact of the business. It was another example of him strong-arming the WWE with negotiations by saying, "Sure, I'll work a match at SS and draw lots of viewers... that is, if you pay me a huge sum of money and let me win, even though there's no reason behind why I should win this match."

It's a double-edged sword. You say HBK is unprofessional for making a mockery of the match and Hogan is unprofessional by forcing this type of booking. But Hogan's still morally correct for performing at his highest level in front of the audience while HBK is more unprofessional because he made it funny and entertaining to watch? It makes no sense.

As far as I'm concerned, HBK's "mockery" of the match is exactly what the match needed. Let's face it, at the time, Hogan was a limping, over-the-hill legend with a bad limp, one hip, and could barely give a leg drop to an opponent. HBK was still in exceptional shape. You want the audience to actually attempt to suspend their disbelief into thinking that Hogan could actually defeat HBK in a match?? Yeah, ok... whatever.

HBK's joking antics SAVED that match from disaster. After all, do you even remember the interviews that HBK had in the weeks prior to the match? Do you remember him wearing a wig, fake mustache, and giving one of the funniest interviews of his career? The entire ANGLE was a joke. So HBK made the match go that way, as well. And after it was all over, Hogan wasn't bitter. So who are we to judge?

 

[Dan E. Inferno]

Personally, I enjoyed the Hogan-HBK match because of the hilarious selling by Michaels. I mean the match was otherwise very ordinary and was relying on the star power involved. That star power being an old, tired Hulk Hogan who just didn't have what it takes to put on a great match anymore. The big boot in particular, the one Mr Eko posted, had me laughing for days. Yes, it was totally unprofessional, but that is the one time Michaels has been anything other than a class act since his return. He continually puts other wrestlers over, either through losing to them or making them look great in a match he wins. He has held the title for one month in over seven years and has no intention of winning again whilst there are other youngers stars who can.

The Shawn Michaels of the 90's was a drug user who cared about no one other than himself and polticked his way to the top. He was the epitome of unprofessionalism, if that's a word. However, those days are long gone and I'm willing to forget his past actions because of who he is today. If there are those of you who can't look past his past, then I feel sorry for you in a way because you're missing out on all the enjoyment he has provided through out his career.

The part where most HBK haters lose me, if they haven't already, is when they say his matches are overated. He may use the same signiture moves every match but he's used them in so many great matches. There are so many I won't bother listing them all but a few include vs Taker in HIAC 1997 and WM 25, vs Bret WM12, vs Angle WM21, vs HHH SS 2002, vs Jericho in a ladder match in 2008. Opinions on these matches come down to the individual of course, but I consider all of these matches great and there are plenty more I could suggest if these ones don't work for you. At the end of the day, you're entitled to your opinion on Shawn Michaels and his lack of professionalism, and some of your points about him are valid but he is a true professional nowadays in my opinion and is a true legend.