Same Character, Just A Face

[WWEvsJosh]

One thing that I never liked about the WWE is when someone turns face they change their character. It does not happen all the time but when it does happen I really hate it. They should be the same but just making "good" choices. For example if D Bryan turns face again soon I really hope he does not drop the "Yes Yes Yes" thing or the "I am a role model" promos. Or if The Miz turns face he should not change his I'm awesome stuff just because he is face so he does not want to seem full of himself. The Rock and Stone Cold are great examples of not doing this. The Rock was cocky when he was a heel and he was cocky when he was a face. Austin was in your face as a heel and in your face as a face.

What do you guys think? Should characters stay the same when they go from heel to face?

 

[cmjericho]

I agree to come extent but isnt turning from face to heel or the other way around a change in character in itself? I mean if you are a good guy pondering to the fans and helping out other faces then you change to a bad guy right there you are changing your character. You can no longer suck up to the fans or defend the faces because then what would even make you the heel? You need to do heelish things to get over. With that being said people like Orton and Sheamus have not really changed too much at all besides the things i just pointed out. As far as D Bryan goes those are just cocky new catchphrases if you will which you need to have if your going to be even remotely relevant on the mic. Also in todays WWE the entire point of turning someone IS to change their character. It is done on purpose. To make somebody fresh and relevant again. Brodus Clay could be a perfect example of this. I think what you may be eluding to is a gimmick change all together.

 

[beast2k]

I agree, at time it may be needed but too many time we have seen character changes when not needed.

Randy Orton - Was face because of his sadistic self and unpredictability and his feud with Cena. Since his character has become a bit more stale, the jumping in the ring comes to mind after hitting the RKO. He needs to be seen more of his mean streak, its what we loved and what got him over.

Sheamus - despite being dominating, I miss the old Sheamus that was aggressive, not so smiley and putting over Hornswoggle. He could have gotten over just by being that bad ass that doesn;t take anything from anybody. He has the likeability factor (promo with Santino on tea Time as a heel was gold) he just needs to tone down the smiling too much fella.

CM Punk - I like the guy but since the infamous promo wanting to bring change and interest to the WWE title, I feel he has become part of the generic machine of being at the top, his promos are far too corny, the realism has diminished. His promo with HHH/Cena were great but since then, about JL and Jericho, has all been too whiny.

Instances like Goldust, Rock, Austin, Angle, Edge didn't really need to change so much and I believe the Miz should keep his Awesome persona, it can get over and is easy to get the crowd to say Awesome instead of Awful. There are more but in a rush to hit the gym, will check back in later - good post!

 

[TempestH]

I agree with this. Look at John Morrison, who spoke in soliloquies, had a deadpan sense of humor, and actually LOOKED like a rockstar when he was a heel, only to shed all of that once he turned face.

 

[ITrippedTheShockmaster]

I agree, to a point. There are some aspects of a character's change that are easy to make without totally revamping the overall character, but there are also some that you just have to alter in order for the character to make sense in their new role.

In today's wrestling, I feel like it's easier to change someone over from heel to face or vice versa without much change, mainly because the characters themselves aren't so pointed to one side anymore. The whole "heel" and "face" mind frame is blurred, and has been since the Attitude Era. When fans started cheering for guys like DX, Stone Cold and The Rock, who all exhibited characteristics that were heelish in nature, that's when you really began to blur the line to the point where you are today. The world was becoming a gritter place at that time, more grey that black and white. People were angry and wanted someone to be their proxy in taking out aggression. Hence, Stone Cold's face turn with the same attitude was monstrous. For The Rock, it was turning him at the right time. His persona was larger than life, with people latching on to the catchphrases. That allowed him to shift without much change, like he's done each time he's flipped. For DX, it was their don't-give-a-damn attitude against the establishment and the popularity of that movement which made their flip work.

It also depends on who that character is in a program with and where they want to bring that character in the long term. For example, Edge's "Rated R Superstar" character was a great heel, but was toned down significantly when he turned face and it worked because he faced bigger heels. Orton's changes weren't a total attitude shift, just some minor tweaks and being double-crossed by heels did it. Same with Punk. He hasn't changed his brash attitude. Now, he just focuses it on the most hated face in the world (Cena) and the heel establishment (Vince, JL), similar to what DX and Austin did in the '90s. Actually, you can probably trace this trend back to as far as Roddy Piper back in the late 1980 and 1990s. He was an absolute asshole, but when you put him against a bigger heel, he came off as the face anyway without changing a thing about him. Same with Ric Flair during his face runs.

About changing some of the character's catchphrases and such, that's just part of the business nowadays. Merchandising is a big business, so any time they flip a character or just freshen them up a bit, it will usually mean a new direction in order to sell different t-shirts, hats, etc. Think about it. If a character is now trying to play up to the crowd and not draw heat, you may have to change their catchphrases or whatever to get the character over with their new attitude so that people will buy their stuff. For example, it's hard (but not impossible) to get a heel turning face over when the guy/girl keeps a "I'm better than you" attitude and message.

It's true that some characters have been flipped when they maybe didn't have to be. Sometimes, though, it's needed when a major star either leaves the company or is gone for a long time because of injury. Someone needs to fill that void, which opens up the opportunity to freshen up a character by turning them or by giving an up-and-comer a chance by flipping them and putting them in a main event program. Plus, the fans - not just the wrestlers and brass - get tired of some characters and their shtick after a while, which calls for a change. You can't keep the same thing going forever.

Basically, while some gimmicks and personas don't need much work to flip anymore, it's not a gimmie to just flip someone and keep them the same every time. Sometimes, change is good and necessary to keep the business from getting boring and predictable

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

You shouldn't dramatically change the character under any circumstance. That's the rule of weekly episodic TV. Some of you audience will miss episodes, if everything is changed within a week, they lose interest. Should be a slow change.

If DB turns face, he should definately drop the "YES YES YES" because it's annoying in a heelish way. You can't do the same shit just not cheat in matches, that doesn't make any sense.

 

[Foshinzo]

...if D Bryan turns face again soon I really hope he does not drop the "Yes Yes Yes" thing or the "I am a role model" promos. Or if The Miz turns face he should not change his I'm awesome stuff just because he is face so he does not want to seem full of himself.

I think this part is a good example of what the problem is. DBD's, "yes," chant was started because it is annoying, so he would have to drop it because a face doesn't want to be annoying. Do you see why he would probably have to change that? People on the IWC may love it because they just love DBD; they'll love him no matter what he does. However, to the general public, it's dumb and obnoxious, which is the point. Faces appeal to the mass majority, and that's why they water themselves down. It's like when a politician wins his party's primary, and then runs in the general election. They start out appealing to one end of the spectrum, and then they flow towards the middle.

However, I think the Miz could pull off the, "Awesome," chant as a face. Have you ever noticed how loud the crowd chants, "Really?" with him? I've felt for awhile that he should be face. He's not menacing, he's not good at being Jericho, but I could see people cheering for him, as a babyface.

The one thing Miz has going for him is that he can be genuinely funny. In a world where the WWE needs to start grooming babyfaces not named Cena or Orton, I think turning Miz face would allow the two of them to hold down Raw for years. I agree that the WWE should stop making Miz be menacing, because it doesn't work, and just let him be funny and cocky, because he is good at that.

 

[akathelaw]

Yes, I'm in total agreement that The Miz needs to be face and it needs to happen ASAP. Live crowds have the most respect for the Miz on the microphone, they're generally quiet and they DON'T do the "What?" chants for him, they do HIS personal crowd chants. That's an accomplishment. Miz also sells a lot of merchandise, he'll sell even more as a face. I think Miz would come off a lot like Jericho did when he was a long haired rocker that cut great comedic promos and really brought it in the ring. Miz can do a similar character, just updated and more relevant to young fans. Today's teenagers watched Miz and Morrisson as tag champs back in elementary school, they're ready to cheer for Miz.

 

[bk555]

Well Orton did it before and it worked out well and R truth did it more recently and he is over.

So basically what i am saying is that this is a good idea. In the world of wrestling, it is not believable if a guy suddenly changes his attitude towards everything in a flash. There needs to be slow transition into a different character. Thats why when you have a guy like Orton, his face turn will be more effective because people will realize that he is basically just the same guy he was before when he was a heel and they will like him more.

 

[Champ1432]

It may be true that total character changes when going between face and heel aren't always the best choice, but to keep all the same characteristics isn't always feasible.

Most heels doing things that are intentionally annoying, mean or just bad. That's what makes them heels, obviously. So if they were to continue this behavior after turning face, it not only wouldn't make much sense, it also my hurt the potential reaction they get from the crowd. Bryan's "YES!!" is a good example of this. It's meant to intentionally get on the nerves of the crowd, it's completely self-serving, and it's made worse by the fact that he's been booked to not look the strongest in matches lately. The only way he could possibly continue it as a face would be to try and make it seem as though he's genuinely ecstatic to win, with more of a look of joy on his face than the smugness he does it with now. I still don't think it would work, however.

Miz's "Awesome" is different in my eyes, though. I think he could continue that as a face. As someone else mentioned, the crowd could just change from saying, "awful" to "awesome" along with him. It's a catchphrase the crowd is already involved in, so it would be easier to use that as a face. "Really?" could work too, because again, the crowd is into that. It could become the Miz's own "What?"

It's true that some of the biggest stars in years past weren't too different whether they were heel or face. Rock is a good example. Austin is as well, sort of. But he did change some as well. After he was hugely over as a face, and turned heel again, his heel character was a little different. In fact he actually acted a little less badass as a heel sometimes. Think about the invasion angle, when he turned on WWE. He started having songs sung, acting a little goofier. He started "What?" as a heel.

So it is true that it will work for a few people, but I think the majority of stars have to make some kind of change, at least a small one, when going between heel and face. As someone else said, that in itself is a change, so it stands to reason that their personality would change as well, at least a little.

 

[logan_punisher]

i agree the miz changing would hurt him in my opinion. cuz the "IM AWESOME" is his PUNCH LINE! stone cold. punch lines were changing but still miz is great with that PUNCH LINE (ONLY!!)

 

[Azane]

If you don't change enough of a character, you can't make a logical change from heel to face.

Arrogance and annoyance don't make a face, and it takes a special actor to make it work. You cited examples of literally the best entertainers wrestling has ever seen.

They're elements they added to a face character to make him an annoying arrogant prick, which is his heel gimmick.

There's been few exceptions to this, like Kurt Angle's You Suck theme even as a face, Stone Cold still playing the crowd even as heel, and such.

Daniel Bryan doing his arrogant cocky things as a face isn't an impossible thing, I'm sure if anyone could pull it off, it's him, I mean, Bryan's gimmick for most his WWE tenure has been that he has no gimmick, so he's that guy who can definitely make it work.

I think the main reason WWE changes people so often now, is that the roster lacks character, so repackaging constantly is a way to try and inject the product with more character.

I hated when Rocky Maivia turned face and they changed his whole gimmick to The Rock.

I also hated when The Ringmaster got repackaged to a drunken redneck gimmick.

(Sarcastic in case anyone missed it)

 

[FlairFan2003]

not everyone has the charisma to get over as a face and a heel without a major change in the way they present themselves. Guys like Piper, HBK, Flair, Kevin Nash, they could get way over either way with minimal change due to their charisma, fact was people liked what they did and how they acted. Put them against fan favorites and they were mostly jeered. Put them vs heels and fans cheered, they wanted to cheer them anyway.

Other guys may have successful runs on both sides but they need drastic change in character presentation or fans just dont buy it. Hogan, Lex Luger, and Brett Hart are good examples here.