Rumored HHH Plans: More Tag Teams, Less Divas

[Slyfox696]

I feel there has to be a cavet to what you are saying though. In the last decade, if you were to mention who were the top 20 most over sports entertainers in the WWE, you would have to include Trish Stratus and Lita and maybe even Sable.

Austin
Rock
Big Show
Undertaker
Triple H
John Cena
Eddie Guerrero
Rey Mysterio
Chris Benoit
Edge
Sheamus
Randy Orton
Jeff Hardy
CM Punk
Hulk Hogan
Shawn Michaels
Kurt Angle
Booker T
RVD
Ric Flair
Brock Lesnar
Kane
Mick Foley
Batista
Chris Jericho

There's 25 wrestlers who are/were EASILY more over than any women's wrestler in the WWE. And that's not throwing in names like JBL, Miz, Daniel Bryan, Mark Henry, Christian, The Dudleys, etc who are/were arguably more over.

I see that you're confused. Allow me to straighten out your misguided and incorrect views.

I can't wait.

Wrestling is not basketball or baseball.

Wow. Tell me, did you figure this out yourself, or did you need someone to explain it to you?

You see, basketball and baseball are sports. They're competition. They're at their most interesting at the highest level. That's directly linked to physical ability - the most athletic, the fastest and strongest, are going to put on the best show more often than not. Wrestling, on the other hand, is not a sport. It's not a competition. It's an art. It's entertainment. While athleticism does play a role,

Thank you, end of debate.

it is much further down the list of important factors than it is in sports.

Which is why I never said the only way to be good in wrestling is to be athletic.

Let's take a hypothetical scenario. We have Women's Wrestler A and Men's Wrestler B. Both wrestler are equally skilled in storytelling, equally good at acting, playing their characters, etc. The female wrestler is 5'4" and weighs 140 pounds. The male wrestler is 6'3" and weighs 260 pounds. The male wrestler is also the far superior athlete.

Now who do you think fans want to see more? I think we both know the answer to that question.

In summary: in sports, athleticism is the most important thing.

If you believe this, then you've never played sports. Or you were really bad at them.

In wrestling(and other arts), the reverse is true. The mental aspect is far more important, and it's complimented by athletic ability.

Which is why we regularly see chess matches between the ropes, right? Wait, no we don't.

Men's wrestling is just superior to women's wrestling. I'm not saying they don't work as hard, or that they aren't just as dedicated, I'm just saying the men are better.

I hope this helps. If you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to ask. I'm here to inform people such as yourself. You're welcome.

While I appreciate your offer, the next time I need advice on wrestling, I'll probably choose to ask someone who knows what the hell they're talking about instead.

 

[Bernkastel]

If the right performers like a Trish and Lita came along again, the Divas division would work.

And how does WWE build credible performers like Trish and Lita? By doing what they are doing right now with AJ Lee.

I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH ANYONE WHO SAYS THAT WOMEN DON'T DRAW.

They can when given a proper story line and do when they are treated as important.

Not really; its been proven time and time again that the women don't draw like the men do. Really any match not involving Moolah, Trish, Lita, 2007 era Candice, Sable, or Ivory was often considered sub par.

Most of you on this forum were toddlers when WWF used to feature some women's matches with legit talent. They weren't on every tv show but when they came to town. Those women got MAJOR pops and were highly anticipated.

Compared to their male counterparts, no they didn't. You want to tell me that Moolah got the same pops Hogan did?

Trish was popular enough to be considered a draw on her own. She was given large amounts of TV time that could have easily gone to HHH, Austin, or some other important big name.

Its not an issue of being talented. Hell, Madison Eagles and Mis Chif are more entertaining in the ring than most of the smackdown roster. They can wrestle, do draw well and sale alot of merchandise.

I've seen Eagles plenty of times; I'd consider her to be average. Mschif is good, head and shoulders better than most in SHIMMER.

But when you don't spend time writing quality story lines, developing characters and treating them like piss breaks then that is what the fans will think.

It has nothing to do with writing, it's about execution. For example Victoria and Molly were given a well written storyline with plenty of time, but they executed it poorly, and the match they had at Mania was underwhelming.

You should also look up the Original Screw job; same thing. Good writing/poor execution.

Japan does women's wrestling better and have had matches that book ppvs. Simply go back to the first womens hardcore match in FMW. That match stole the show and put all the asses in that stadium because it was built up the right way. That can happen now.

Bringing joshi into this tells you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

You are talking about a culture where nearly every person and their mothers read and watch manga and anime. You have grown fucking men in business suits that make millions of yen and think that Goku is the greatest hero ever. When Japanese fans watch pro wrestling they expect to see something totally different than American fans do... they want to see matches that reflect the outrageous action they see in anime. That's why puro style wrestlers rarely ever work in WWE.

Two women chopping the shit out of each other and hitting piledrivers and not selling is considered good storytelling in Japan. In the US that's considered a circus.

There are many fans that enjoy the divas as is. When they were not on the show, the amount of tweets complaining were astounding. I read the twitter stream and people were upset. Not a few but thousands of tweets. So there is an audience there. You have to make it important for it to be important. How do you think Cena Became Relevant ? They built him that way, invested in his character and forced the issue. The fans bought it.

How many times has Beth had to get over? If she were truly that talented as a performer, she be on Trish's level with all the opportunities she's been given. And she's considered one of the best in the modern era? Give me a break.

There is no way if they put effort into a credible program it wouldn't work. They did it in the past. And it can happen now. I can think of at least 6 women wrestlers that can out talk most of the WWE roster and have the skills in the ring to back it up. You give them a program that makes sense and let them go and people will get behind it.

It would help if the women WWE hired were good performers that knew how to sell a role.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

I've said it many times before and I'll say it many times again: the WWE does not need to have an expanded female wrestler roster as they simply do not have the time nor the talent to keep it afloat for extended periods of time. They can get away with having the girls doing NPC roles as they usually attract more attention (due to the fact that they are female VIP in a world watched by men - who are the majority). Vickie Guerrero and A.J. have proven to work well in these roles, as well as such people like Stephanie McMahon from the past.

As for tag teams, there are a lot of guys on the roster who really are still trying to grasp an audience or aren't doing that well for themselves so inserting them into a tag team will give them a second shot at glory and allow them to work towards a goal, putting their time to good use. Tag Team wrestling can be fun to watch and adds more to the program, especially when you can find a "proper" tag team (i.e. Dudley Boys) who are more geared towards wrestling as a pairing.

I hope this is what HHH is going for: the main event/mid-card area's have always done well - no real need to put extra attention to areas that thrive whilst doing so little for those areas that do need the attention.

 

[d_henderson1810]

This is mostly good news. I would much rather the WWE get rid of women's wrestling all together, and just hire beautiful female actresses who never get in the ring, but the less time on women's wrestling the better.

As far as tag teams go...meh. As I recently said in a different thread, until the WWE allows their tag teams to work a different style of tag team match/story than the formulaic good/bad/hot tag/finish match they require now, I still won't be interested.

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You say that you would prefer to get rid of women's wrestling altogether. Well, I feel that is unfair, because there have been good women's matches in the past. A lot of the matches where Trish Stratus wrestled Mickie James, Lita, Molly or Victoria in the past were very good standard.

I know not as many good divas matches occur today, but a feud between, say, Natalya and Beth Phoenix could produce a few good match moments. I also think that Tamina Snuka can do a couple of good moves, and her match with Beth at "Elimination Chamber" was a solid showing.

If Kharma had joined, and been given a well-matched opponent (like a dominant Beth Phoenix), then there may some interest. But time must be given to the builds and matches as well.

Also, there must be some interest for divas onscreen. Look how well A.J. Lee's run has been so far.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

To the chap who said Women will draw... Not in America buddy... they never will draw to the level of a mid card guy in WWE and thats why the division ultimately fails every time. In the 80's it was Wendi Richter, she drew for a while but the moment Cyndi Lauper went back to music she was done, the moment, and it was a moment passed. They brought Joshi's in like the Jumping Bomb Angels and it didn't work. Young, exciting women versus Moolah, Velvet McIntyre and Lelani Kai sucked...

They got a little bit closer with Trish and Lita but ultimately the same fact holds true. People don't like seeing women "fight" as much as they do guys. For all their talent in the ring the majority of their usage was as T&A with phases of active wrestling in between. The only real exception was Nora Greenwald but she never got to the levels she could have as she refused a lot of the angles suggested.

We will see women's sport become more important, the London Olympics has had boxing, 10 years ago it was newly legal! WWE doesn't need women to survive, and it's time for these other sports to flourish. WWE needs to focus on it's bread and butter, which is male athletes.

The tag division has always been a major part of that, and we now have Trips sending out a call (no doubt aimed at the Dudleyz at this crucial point in their negotiations) If that doesn't work, APA looked pretty good the other week, and I am sure that if Claudio loses to Santino then it could be a sign the Kings will be forming.

 

[LoudClearVoice]

Women's wrestling is fine IF they can actually wrestle and if there were decent feuds. When you start giving the belt to the hottest girl or the chick with the biggest boobs, if they can't wrestle, it's a waste of everyone's time.

If they phase out the Divas division and actually have a women's division of women that can actually wrestle (and are good looking) then that's a good thing.

 

[Slyfox696]

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You say that you would prefer to get rid of women's wrestling altogether.

I did and I do.

Well, I feel that is unfair, because there have been good women's matches in the past. A lot of the matches where Trish Stratus wrestled Mickie James, Lita, Molly or Victoria in the past were very good standard.

Good matches by women's standards, not good matches by wrestling standards.

I've been watching pro wrestling since the late 80s. In those 20+ years I've been watching pro wrestling, I can recall only ONCE where a good women's match happened in the WWE, and that was at Wrestlemania 22 between Trish and Mickie. And even they botched the ending to the match. When your ratio of good matches is 1 every 20 years, that should be telling.

I know not as many good divas matches occur today, but a feud between, say, Natalya and Beth Phoenix could produce a few good match moments. I also think that Tamina Snuka can do a couple of good moves, and her match with Beth at "Elimination Chamber" was a solid showing.

Professional wrestling is not about moves. Professional wrestling is about storytelling, about making people care. Divas simply don't make people care. Throw in the fact their athleticism is vastly inferior to the men's and there's no reason to have women's wrestling.

Also, there must be some interest for divas onscreen. Look how well A.J. Lee's run has been so far.

I completely agree there is plenty of opportunities for women in wrestling, I never said there shouldn't be any women in pro wrestling. However, what I said was:

This is mostly good news. I would much rather the WWE get rid of women's wrestling all together, and just hire beautiful female actresses who never get in the ring

Take your own example, AJ. Is she interesting and entertaining because she's wrestled a bunch of matches? Or has she been interesting and entertaining because she's a beautiful woman who has played her role as the crazy girl in a love triangle very well? Of course, it's the latter.

We don't need women wrestling, we need female actresses. Divas can escort the men down to the ring, they can play love interests, they can play management roles, but they don't need to be wasting our time by wrestling in the ring.

 

[SacredMesa]

Glad to hear he is planning on bringing back tag team wrestling but he sure has a hell of a long way to go. Primo and Epico, Prime Time Players, and R-Truth+Kofi are just boring to me. Prime Time Players where decent when A.W was their mouth piece but when I grew up spoiled with Edge and Christian, The Dudley's, The Hardy's, Too Cool, etc etc in the tag division all incredibly entertaining and very good in the ring in their own unique styles what they have now just looks so minor league...then again tag team divisions pretty much every where look rather minor league by comparison.


As far as ditching Divas wrestling I couldn't be happier, they have no place in wrestling and should of never been on TV to begin with. As far as ditching women's wrestling however that is a HUGE mistake. Lita, Trish, Ivory, Molly Holly, Mickie James, Tera, etc etc all showed that there is a ton to be gained from women's wrestling when it done properly with talented female wrestlings who are given the required time to build a feud on the mic and in the ring.

 

[LoudClearVoice]

Glad to hear he is planning on bringing back tag team wrestling but he sure has a hell of a long way to go. Primo and Epico, Prime Time Players, and R-Truth+Kofi are just boring to me. Prime Time Players where decent when A.W was their mouth piece but when I grew up spoiled with Edge and Christian, The Dudley's, The Hardy's, Too Cool, etc etc in the tag division all incredibly entertaining and very good in the ring in their own unique styles what they have now just looks so minor league...then again tag team divisions pretty much every where look rather minor league by comparison.


As far as ditching Divas wrestling I couldn't be happier, they have no place in wrestling and should of never been on TV to begin with. As far as ditching women's wrestling however that is a HUGE mistake. Lita, Trish, Ivory, Molly Holly, Mickie James, Tera, etc etc all showed that there is a ton to be gained from women's wrestling when it done properly with talented female wrestlings who are given the required time to build a feud on the mic and in the ring.

I agree on both points. Regarding the tag team division, I think the current teams are kinda entertaining in the ring but that's about it. There are no storylines, fueds or reason for me to be interested. To recharge this division I think what they need is to put together either two main eventers or two upper mid carders and associate those guys with Punk, Cena, Sheamus, etc (the top guys). Getting the tag teams involved in the main storylines, is the only way they'll bring major interest back.

When Jericho and the Big Show were a tag team and Big Show and Miz was the last time I actually was interested in the tag team division.

Once they've involved a couple of the teams in the main event storylines, then they can end it and have the teams feud within the tag team division but at least then people will remain interested.

Right now, the tag team division seems just too random to me.

 

[Nada]

The only time divas could ever have been even a minor draw were the mid-late 90s, when shows like Baywatch were highly rated because they featured scantly clad hot women.

After the internet exploded, there is simply no need for that on tv or films anymore, the porn industry has widespread so far that everyone has easy access to whatever type of women (or man) that they desire. They dont have to get embarrassed buying a porn magazine at the local store, or borrow a friends "dirty mag".

There is absolutely no need for it anymore.

Tag team wrestling could work again, it requires ofcourse a good division and teams that people will get behind. The most popular sports in the world today are team sports such as football, american football, basketball etc. No reason why people wouldnt get behind a team with a good gimmick and some good matches

 

[XXJJ]

Womans wrestling is not a draw for the WWE. I hope they get rid of it.

They need to find a couple of pretty girls that can act. Teach them about doing promos and the wrestling business. You can make them valets, managers, gms etc. They can be very useful in some angles, like AJ was with DB.

It makes sense that they are no longer looking at model agencies for divas. The WWE is a pg product now. Kelly Kelly cant strip anymore, they cant have lingerie shows, mud wrestling matches etc. The "model" divas are useless now. They just have short crappy matches and have horrible acting skills.

Eve was awful during the Cena/Ryder/Kane angle. If they got someone that could act a little that angle might of been better.

 

[SacredMesa]

I agree on both points. Regarding the tag team division, I think the current teams are kinda entertaining in the ring but that's about it. There are no storylines, fueds or reason for me to be interested. To recharge this division I think what they need is to put together either two main eventers or two upper mid carders and associate those guys with Punk, Cena, Sheamus, etc (the top guys). Getting the tag teams involved in the main storylines, is the only way they'll bring major interest back.

Getting the main eventers or upper mid-carders involved is a good idea but making them into tag teams is not. To be honest having a third person in the teams can add a lot, remember E&C having Angle, Dudley's having Spike, Hardys had Lita, Too Cool had Rikishi, etc etc. Right now the only ones I can think of that would fit is The Prime Time Players could go with Ziggler as both really seem to have that cocky show off attitude and if Ziggler started leading them it would give him a chance to break away from Vickie and really solidify himself as a top contender while also elevating the tag team.

Something like that is how I would like to see main eventers/upper mid carders used in the tag team division.

 

[Unsold Bacon]

I like this a lot. The divas division has been dead for a while now and I don't care at all about it. The tag division meanwhile has gotten slightly better lately and still can be revived.

The only problem I have with this is that the divas won't be gone all together.

 

[PrinceMarvel]

If HHH does amp up the tag team division, I already have a few ideas for teams/stables.

Even though his is currently paired with R-Truth, I would like to see ofi reteamed with Evan Bournes with Sin Cara added to the team.

Or if the above doesn't work out, team Sin Cara with Rey Mysterio.

I'd like to see Ted Dibiase Jr and Joe Hinning team up, with Cody possibly joining the team.

Another team I wouldn't mind sseing Cody in is with Dolph Ziggler and Miz, I know that all three are being pushed in single competition, but to me, it seems that their personalities might work well together.

I'd like to see Drew McIntyre & Heath Slater.

I'd also like to see a face version of a single man being paired with a tag team, they do it a lot with heels, Randy Orton & Legacy, Edge, Curt Hawkins & Zack Ryder, Angle Alliance, Christian Coallition, I just think it might be nice to see it done with a face team, we did have a short lived one in CTC, Cryme Tyme & Cena.

I have two ideas for the previous mentioned team idea, both involve Cena as the main guy.

One is with Zack Ryder & Alix Riley, R&R, I'd actually le to see these two team up rather it is with Cena or not.

The other one would be with Ted Dibiase Jr and a face Miz, and they would be called the Marines. This one would be more of a regular stable, as Miz is too popular and too big to be degrated to a sidekik

 

[d_henderson1810]

I did and I do.

Good matches by women's standards, not good matches by wrestling standards.

I've been watching pro wrestling since the late 80s. In those 20+ years I've been watching pro wrestling, I can recall only ONCE where a good women's match happened in the WWE, and that was at Wrestlemania 22 between Trish and Mickie. And even they botched the ending to the match. When your ratio of good matches is 1 every 20 years, that should be telling.

Professional wrestling is not about moves. Professional wrestling is about storytelling, about making people care. Divas simply don't make people care. Throw in the fact their athleticism is vastly inferior to the men's and there's no reason to have women's wrestling.


I completely agree there is plenty of opportunities for women in wrestling, I never said there shouldn't be any women in pro wrestling. However, what I said was:


Take your own example, AJ. Is she interesting and entertaining because she's wrestled a bunch of matches? Or has she been interesting and entertaining because she's a beautiful woman who has played her role as the crazy girl in a love triangle very well? Of course, it's the latter.

We don't need women wrestling, we need female actresses. Divas can escort the men down to the ring, they can play love interests, they can play management roles, but they don't need to be wasting our time by wrestling in the ring.

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Wrestling is about storytelling? Partly, but not wholly!

Wrestling is about storytelling and GOOD MATCHES! Not one, but both. Would you pay $40 for a PPV if there were no matches, but only storytelling and stickwork?

If storytelling is most important, then why does the IWC jerk off to ROH, where wrestling surpasses telling a story?

If women were given proper storylines, and time to tell them, then people would care more. Look at Trish and Mickie, leading up to WM 22. There was an actual storyline (Mickie was a fan of Trish, who started being a fan, became obsessive, and then when spurned by Trish, she went psycho). See what happens when a storyline is given time to breathe! But usually, women are thrown into matches, with little time given, before they are fully trained, so you get botches.

Vince McMahon doesn't give them more time because he is a mysoginist who sees women as something to screw, not something to appeal to female fans. But most of the basement dwelling losers on this site don't care about appealing to women (and most of you wouldn't know how to). You see women and porn stars, so you think that that is all they are good for. Maybe you would prefer women to not be in wrestling altogether, and just go back to the kitchen and make cookies and have babies.

If the WWE valued women more, gave them good storylines, and the right talent to be part of the storyline, then maybe divas would be viewed as something more than sex objects to ogle.

I would like to see AJ do matches, and see if she is as good as a wrestler as she is a character. But WWE won't let her wrestle, so how do we know if she is any good or not.

Maybe it should be AJ having a match for the Divas Title at NOC, instead of Kaitlyn (AJ is GM, so she could book herself into a title match).

 

[Bernkastel]

Wrestling is about storytelling? Partly, but not wholly!

Wrestling is about storytelling and GOOD MATCHES! Not one, but both. Would you pay $40 for a PPV if there were no matches, but only storytelling and stickwork?

What do you think makes a good match? The storytelling of course.

If storytelling is most important, then why does the IWC jerk off to ROH, where wrestling surpasses telling a story?

ROH is a circus. Everytime I watch one of their shows I have to have Doink's theme playing in the background. The only thing missing from their shows is an elephant riding atop a giant ball.

If women were given proper storylines, and time to tell them, then people would care more. Look at Trish and Mickie, leading up to WM 22. There was an actual storyline (Mickie was a fan of Trish, who started being a fan, became obsessive, and then when spurned by Trish, she went psycho). See what happens when a storyline is given time to breathe! But usually, women are thrown into matches, with little time given, before they are fully trained, so you get botches.

Trish Stratus was given match time and storyline because she was a great actress and a great performer. Beth Phoenix is considered the best the division has to offer, and has been for some time, and she's an average performer at best.

If the face of your division is average at best, what does that make everyone else? Absolute boring shit.

Vince McMahon doesn't give them more time because he is a mysoginist who sees women as something to screw, not something to appeal to female fans.

Is that why his own daughter has more stock in the company than his son, is that why AJ gets as much TV time as the WWE champion? You are full of baseless assumptions aren't you?

If the WWE valued women more, gave them good storylines, and the right talent to be part of the storyline, then maybe divas would be viewed as something more than sex objects to ogle.

I can count the number of times the women's division as been a major staple of the company as far as interest goes on one hand. Women's wrestling just simply doesn't draw mainstream.

If Fabulous Moolah only garnered a fraction of the interest that Hogan and Flair did, then what makes you think that any of today's diva can get anywhere close to matching the interest generated by John Cena or CM Punk? Lulz.

I would like to see AJ do matches, and see if she is as good as a wrestler as she is a character. But WWE won't let her wrestle, so how do we know if she is any good or not.

I'd rather her stick to being GM; it's interesting and fun to watch.

 

[nightmare]

Wrestling is about storytelling and GOOD MATCHES! Not one, but both. Would you pay $40 for a PPV if there were no matches, but only storytelling and stickwork?

Good matches are good because of the story told in the ring. You could put the most 2 athletic people in the ring and have them go at it, but if there is no story being told- it means nothing and doesnt capture your interest or attention.

If storytelling is most important, then why does the IWC jerk off to ROH, where wrestling surpasses telling a story?

Actually, they have fallen off quite a bit from what it once was. What made ROH great was an alternative feel to the WWE and the talent they had\stories that played out. Now ROH is a shell of its former self. KOW, Punk, Joe, Tyler Black, etc are all gone. Whats left isnt great except for what they have done with Steen, I think that is good.

If women were given proper storylines, and time to tell them, then people would care more. Look at Trish and Mickie, leading up to WM 22. There was an actual storyline (Mickie was a fan of Trish, who started being a fan, became obsessive, and then when spurned by Trish, she went psycho). See what happens when a storyline is given time to breathe! But usually, women are thrown into matches, with little time given, before they are fully trained, so you get botches.

What proper storyline do you think exactly would help? Divas matches, no matter the storyline have been 98% crap for 20 years. Fully trained you say? Before they get on tv they have had plenty of training. They are just glorified models. Sure there are few exceptions, but even with a wrestling family pedigree, that doesnt make people care about your matches. Storyline or not, people just will never care about women wrestling nearly as much as their male counterparts. History proves that.

Vince McMahon doesn't give them more time because he is a mysoginist who sees women as something to screw, not something to appeal to female fans. But most of the basement dwelling losers on this site don't care about appealing to women (and most of you wouldn't know how to). You see women and porn stars, so you think that that is all they are good for. Maybe you would prefer women to not be in wrestling altogether, and just go back to the kitchen and make cookies and have babies.

Are they baking brownies, cuz I could use a snack now that you said something....

If the WWE valued women more, gave them good storylines, and the right talent to be part of the storyline, then maybe divas would be viewed as something more than sex objects to ogle.

Do you ever think they would overhaul the division and make that the main focus? No way. Why? Because fans (male and female) pay to see the top stars. If you think they would ever push on of the Divas over the likes of Cena or Punk you are crazy. Very few times has a woman been pushed big and it worked, in decades. Its not because they are just sex objects, its because there just will never be a demand for it, nor a storyline so compelling for the WWE to have it be the main event. Certain things work with the Divas, but for the most part, fans just do not care and would rather watch another match that they are more interested in.

I would like to see AJ do matches, and see if she is as good as a wrestler as she is a character. But WWE won't let her wrestle, so how do we know if she is any good or not.

You do know she was a wrestler before she was on RAW right? You being ignorant enough to not watch those matches is no ones fault but your own. Survey says, she was decent enough in the ring and character wise that they put her in a big storyline\angle.

Maybe it should be AJ having a match for the Divas Title at NOC, instead of Kaitlyn (AJ is GM, so she could book herself into a title match).

Yes because that makes so much sense and what a thrilling story it would be....